Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[lucca261]

again, the tone: "I'm better than you and never make mistakes."

1) so the two people were doom, who already stated he didn't mean that and magna on the middle of D2? okay.

2) it's not a strong post just for the scumslip stuff. it's a strong post because he's looking for scum and his views on posts reminds me of things I was thinking when I was reading them. he is viewing stuff from a town point of view. also, scum make a lot of mistakes. if scum didn't, there would be no way to scumhunt them, and that could be a possible mistake on your part.

3) do you think I'm town?

Actually the tone is "stop wasting my time with meaningless bullshit". Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell, unless you think I'm doing it in a way that suggests that I'm just scum gloating (and you DEFINITELY need citations if you want to sell that one). I don't think I ever claimed to never make mistakes (among other things, I've been on two town lynch wagons, so obv this isn't my greatest game ever), but if you want to argue that I'm showing off my ego, sure. Probably am. Now if you think I'm scum, argue why it's scummy instead of villagery.

1) Magna asked me two stupid questions and then voted me apparently because I didn't answer his stupid questions. Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did. And yes, that's two people. What's your point here?

2) His actual argument is dumb though. Given that his argument is dumb, the question is whether he believes it. Do you believe that he believes it? Why or why not?

3) Not sure. Do you think you've done something strongly indicative this game? You've produced content, which is itself something somewhat positive, but I don't know why you deserve to be a strong read in either direction. If I've missed something important wrt your alignment, feel free to enlighten me.

-M

and you say you're not disregarding stuff I post. I'm curious why you need to proclaim you as town in every single post that you make. it's always: "hey, this thing I did is obv-town", "hey, this thing I did is a town tell'. I'm saying you use this tone to disregard stuff that other people post about you. It's not just on me, it's on Magna as well. every time people accuse you, you start to say that you're better then than, and that you are obvtown.

What EXACTLY am I disregarding here? I note that what you're accusing me of (arrogance) is actually town-indicative, and then ask you to demonstrate why you think it's scum-indicative. You turn it around and act as if I'm proclaiming myself obvtown (when I haven't), and ignore the QUESTION I asked you of why this behavior is scum-indicative (which you know, is ACTUALLY disregarding something the other person is saying).

1) it's just that it's curious you waited the start of D3 to answer magna "stupid" questions. you waited until they were a problem. if Magna/Doom hadn't pushed you about it, you wouldn't answer this.

I answered because there were now two people who (seemingly) wanted me to answer the question, even though it was a dumb busywork question in the first place, and so I just did it. Why do you think this is indicative?

2) again. the argument is dumb. I think he believes it. I think you're scum. He probably does as well. I'm reading him as town. I think he believes.

What about his argument as presented makes you think he believes it? Substantively, all you're doing here is saying "I agree with his argument, therefore I agree that he believes it". That's lazy. Presume I'm town (which obviously you don't want to do). UNDER THAT MODEL, do you think that he believes what he's saying? Why or why not?

3) that is not my point. my point is that, if you're not sure I'm town, you saying: "3) stop looking for scumslips, start looking for actually scummy behavior. "Scumslips" are bullshit the bulk majority of the time and mainly an excuse fir lazy scumhunting." makes no sense. in this you assume I'm town 100%, not even considering I might be doing this for scum reasons. if you were town on this game, you wouldn't be so sure of my alignment.

Actually I think you're being bad regardless of alignment. I SUSPECT you're town and am trying to educate you in order to be less bad. I could be wrong, but until I have solid reason to think you're scum, I'm going to talk to you as if you're town. That's not even slightly indicative on me, unless you think you have some magic way to differentiate from someone who THINKS you're town and someone who KNOWS you're town (and if you are town, perhaps this game will teach you how dumb that approach is).

Your tone is not an arrogant tone. Your tone is of desperate scum that is trying to disprove anything that is thrown of you because it's a bad case. And that's a scum tell. And arrogance is NAI. Of course you are going to answer me by telling me how wrong I am and how good of a player are you both.

1) Because you weren't going to answer. That is clear.

2) I READ FITZ AS TOWN. THEREFORE, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY MOTIVATION FOR HIM TO DON'T BELIEVE IN WHAT HE'S SAYING. See, I can use caps lock too.

3) Then stop disregarding my posts and pretending to be the saviour of Mafiascum. Go find scum. Engage with who you think is scum. Your only interactions right now are with me and Magna. You're not concerned about finding scum. You're concerned about defending yourself. If you don't think I'm town, how can you go around and try to educate me to scumhunt better? This is you displaying your knowledge of who's town again. Curse all you want, you slipped.

[lucca261]

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? And what makes you think I'm angry about being caught, as opposed to contemptuous towards the seemingly dumb player who actually believes this crap?

-M

town player would try to go against the case with substanced opinions. you are trying to go against the players.

again, you're treating me as conftown. am I the only one seeing this?

[lucca261]

@UD, 975: you were voting Mozamis. so, when's he lynched, your reaction is thinking that who hammered is scum? this makes no sense.

---

let's not forget UD though process here:

UD: "Hey, arrogance is a town-tell" --- "I do posts where I'm completely arrogant, appeal to emotion and demonstrate knowledge of alignment" --- "but I am arrogant, therefore I'm town" --- "why? because I'm arrogant, and arrogance is town"

---

in the middle of the UD crazyness, I don't like that Hans jumped at the discussion to defend himself, made no points, and gets out proclaiming UD as town (?) because of his bad excuse.

Hans-UD-Nahdia, anybody?

[Ultimate Despair]

...

Your tone is not an arrogant tone. Your tone is of desperate scum that is trying to disprove anything that is thrown of you because it's a bad case. And that's a scum tell. And arrogance is NAI. Of course you are going to answer me by telling me how wrong I am and how good of a player are you both.

1) Because you weren't going to answer. That is clear.

2) I READ FITZ AS TOWN. THEREFORE, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY MOTIVATION FOR HIM TO DON'T BELIEVE IN WHAT HE'S SAYING. See, I can use caps lock too.

3) Then stop disregarding my posts and pretending to be the saviour of Mafiascum. Go find scum. Engage with who you think is scum. Your only interactions right now are with me and Magna. You're not concerned about finding scum. You're concerned about defending yourself. If you don't think I'm town, how can you go around and try to educate me to scumhunt better? This is you displaying your knowledge of who's town again. Curse all you want, you slipped.

0) As with doomfeathers' stated tone read, you should be able to provide explicit examples if you think I have a fake arrogant tone. Please do this.

1) So I originally wasn't going to answer, and then I did answer after a second person asked me, and that makes me scum because ___?

2)

What about his argument as presented makes you think he believes it?

You're choosing to ignore the question I asked and instead answer a different question. I didn't ask you about your overall read of him, I asked about what you see in HIS ARGUMENT AS PRESENTED that makes you think it's sincere. This is me asking you to demonstrate your thought process. Now that I've restated my question (which was clear enough the first time btw), why don't you just answer it?

3) This is you choosing to believe that I've "slipped" knowledge of who's town instead of the very obvious possibility that I'm talking to you as if you were town because that's how I tend to talk to people. It's conceivable that this is scum hiding behind this kind of behvaior, but my gut says super derp town makes more sense.

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? And what makes you think I'm angry about being caught, as opposed to contemptuous towards the seemingly dumb player who actually believes this crap?

-M

town player would try to go against the case with substanced opinions. you are trying to go against the players.

again, you're treating me as conftown. am I the only one seeing this?

1) I ask you for evidence behind your opinions, you choose to focus on the attack part. Did you not care about the question or did you just decide it was easier to focus on the latter? If the second option, why is that?

2) Apparently you are the only such person (though I suspect it'll be sheeped soon enough). I've stated multiple times that I am not in fact treating you as conftown, and that in general I treat people as town unless I think they're scum. You're overlooking or actively disregarding what I've said. Why is that?

-M

[lucca261]

nahdia has posted nothing.

revan disappeared from the face of the earth as soon as pressure laid off him.

doom is posting scummy shit and trying to go for every lynch he can.

superhans is superhans.

I've done enough posts about UD.

---

safe to say my only townreads are Magna and Fitz atm. not voting Nahdia, Doom or Revan today, too.

today we should lynch between UD and Hans.

[Ultimate Despair]

@UD, 975: you were voting Mozamis. so, when's he lynched, your reaction is thinking that who hammered is scum? this makes no sense.

Vote Count 2.7

Mozamis

(3):

Superhans

, MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz

Ultimate Despair

(3): lucca261,

mozamis

, revan, mozamis

Superhans

(1):

Revan

,

mozamis

, doomfeathers

Revan

(1): superhans,

mozamis

Not Voting

(1): Nahdia_Superfan,

superhans

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Nahdia_Superfan replaces wgeurts.

Deadline has been extended.

(expired on 2017-02-08 09:00:01) until deadline.

Wow MOI is on a wagon I should vote there.

VOTE: Mozamis

VOTE: Moz

K switching to Moz, agree that her reads seem fake, and Rev doesn't seem likely today.

Moz is on L1 btw.

K nm she is L0

Given that these were all on the same page, can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer?

-M

Forget the context of mozami's flip. Does this or does this not look suspicious to you? Do you NEED a flip to look at that and think it's questionable to have hammered while ignoring the vote that just happened that was both obvious and sketchy-looking? If yes, explain why. If no, explain why what I did was somehow problematic. Please also note that I QUESTIONED him about his vote. The "omg M pretended to hard-scum read Hans right as soon as that vote was made" bit is factually inaccurate and not consistent with what I did at all.

---

let's not forget UD though process here:

UD: "Hey, arrogance is a town-tell" --- "I do posts where I'm completely arrogant, appeal to emotion and demonstrate knowledge of alignment" --- "but I am arrogant, therefore I'm town" --- "why? because I'm arrogant, and arrogance is town"

At no point did I ever demonstrate knowledge of alignment, either wrt mozami or wrt you. Just becuase you say it a bunch of times does not mean it's true.

Also please demonstrate my AtE as you understand it, instead of trying to just attack me for what you claim to be seeing. A half-assed "summary" of what you read as my behavior is completely useless.

[doomfeathers]

Can you possibly be serious? You've posted nothing that wasn't antagonizing. Are you seriously asking me to hunt down posts so you can nitpick about whether it was anger, contempt, or arrogance? What difference could it possibly make? It's SCUMMY. DEAL WITH IT.

So you're saying you can't? I mean, you've represented that you are capable of tonally reading me, and then when asked to provide examples of what you claim to be seeing, you decide that you can't be bothered?

No, I'm demonstrating. That's how well I do off the top of my head without warming up. You sure seemed to take it as antagonistic.

[Ultimate Despair]

---

in the middle of the UD crazyness, I don't like that Hans jumped at the discussion to defend himself, made no points, and gets out proclaiming UD as town (?) because of his bad excuse.

Hans-UD-Nahdia, anybody?

nahdia has posted nothing.

revan disappeared from the face of the earth as soon as pressure laid off him.

doom is posting scummy shit and trying to go for every lynch he can.

superhans is superhans.

I've done enough posts about UD.

---

safe to say my only townreads are Magna and Fitz atm. not voting Nahdia, Doom or Revan today, too.

today we should lynch between UD and Hans.

So nearly everyone is scummy, and you posit that Nahdia is part of the scum team, but you're not voting there, or for what you represent as pretty clearly scummy behavior from Doom and Revan, but instead decide that the lynch must be between UD and Hans.

That's a lot of "scummy town" that you say you're seeing. What exactly separates those out from either my or Hans slots? If you're going to basically represent that the whole board is scummy, I'm curious why you think that either I or Hans, much less both of us, stand out strongly from the others. What, other than "well I think it's UD/Hans", makes the others scummy town?

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Can you possibly be serious? You've posted nothing that wasn't antagonizing. Are you seriously asking me to hunt down posts so you can nitpick about whether it was anger, contempt, or arrogance? What difference could it possibly make? It's SCUMMY. DEAL WITH IT.

So you're saying you can't? I mean, you've represented that you are capable of tonally reading me, and then when asked to provide examples of what you claim to be seeing, you decide that you can't be bothered?

No, I'm demonstrating. That's how well I do off the top of my head without warming up.

You sure seemed to take it as antagonistic

.

Did I? I'm pretty sure I took it as evidence that your stated read didn't have substance behind it, and therefore was potentially insincere. Why do you think I interpreted it as you being antagonistic? Or did you mean that I was being antagonistic to you there?

-M

[lucca261]

...

Your tone is not an arrogant tone. Your tone is of desperate scum that is trying to disprove anything that is thrown of you because it's a bad case. And that's a scum tell. And arrogance is NAI. Of course you are going to answer me by telling me how wrong I am and how good of a player are you both.

1) Because you weren't going to answer. That is clear.

2) I READ FITZ AS TOWN. THEREFORE, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY MOTIVATION FOR HIM TO DON'T BELIEVE IN WHAT HE'S SAYING. See, I can use caps lock too.

3) Then stop disregarding my posts and pretending to be the saviour of Mafiascum. Go find scum. Engage with who you think is scum. Your only interactions right now are with me and Magna. You're not concerned about finding scum. You're concerned about defending yourself. If you don't think I'm town, how can you go around and try to educate me to scumhunt better? This is you displaying your knowledge of who's town again. Curse all you want, you slipped.

0) As with doomfeathers' stated tone read, you should be able to provide explicit examples if you think I have a fake arrogant tone. Please do this.

1) So I originally wasn't going to answer, and then I did answer after a second person asked me, and that makes me scum because ___?

2)

What about his argument as presented makes you think he believes it?

You're choosing to ignore the question I asked and instead answer a different question. I didn't ask you about your overall read of him, I asked about what you see in HIS ARGUMENT AS PRESENTED that makes you think it's sincere. This is me asking you to demonstrate your thought process. Now that I've restated my question (which was clear enough the first time btw), why don't you just answer it?

3) This is you choosing to believe that I've "slipped" knowledge of who's town instead of the very obvious possibility that I'm talking to you as if you were town because that's how I tend to talk to people. It's conceivable that this is scum hiding behind this kind of behvaior, but my gut says super derp town makes more sense.

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? And what makes you think I'm angry about being caught, as opposed to contemptuous towards the seemingly dumb player who actually believes this crap?

-M

town player would try to go against the case with substanced opinions. you are trying to go against the players.

again, you're treating me as conftown. am I the only one seeing this?

1) I ask you for evidence behind your opinions, you choose to focus on the attack part. Did you not care about the question or did you just decide it was easier to focus on the latter? If the second option, why is that?

2) Apparently you are the only such person (though I suspect it'll be sheeped soon enough). I've stated multiple times that I am not in fact treating you as conftown, and that in general I treat people as town unless I think they're scum. You're overlooking or actively disregarding what I've said. Why is that?

-M

0) I never said you are faking arrogance. This is again you putting things on my mouth. I said that your tone is of scum trying to get through the pressure.

1) You are only trying to answer stuff if people pressure you? If it wouldn't be a problem, you wouldn't answer at all? Regardless of who you are, you are a better player than to not know why I think this.

2) Why is this question relevant? Why should I care about what part of the argument would made he believe it or no. If he is town, he has no reason to not believe it. NO REASON. And I think he's town. So he believes in all parts of the argument. (This is UD asking me a nonsense question, that I obviously won't answer, so he can say: "Hey, lucca doesn't answer questions."

3) In every interaction you have with people you have to believe something. You believe that I'm super derp town. I believe that you slipped. What is the problem?

---

1) the thing that differenciate both is the attack part. town would be concerned with defend yourself by attacking the case. you are trying to attack the player to disprove them.

2) yes, I should believe that what UD is doing is not scummy, because UD said so. You have said that you treat people as town unless you think they're scum. I think that you have slipped. It's different opinions of a same situation.

[doomfeathers]

1) Thread consensus seems to be top suspects inside (Hans, me, revan). You sheep that consensus in 942, while at the same time expressing basically zero interest in WHICH of those three is actual scum (which is super weird given that we're in MYLO)

2) I push on that and you state the obvious in 955

it's still important that we pick the right lynch.

while at the same time not especially doing anything to pick that correct lynch

3) In 958 you question my tonal tell data relating to arrogance, and dispute that you'd acknowledged that my read of your question (i.e. that you wanted me to hunt down those posts) was reasonable

4) In 965 you acknowledge that my point was in fact reasonable (unless "oops, misread" was ALSO empty)

5) In 977 you state that you failed to see any emotion from me other than anger and FOS me (you also state that I'm trying to use anger as evidence of townishness, which isn't really correct, and even if it was, would be pretty NAI, unless you think that town players can't or won't try to demonstrate that are town for reasons that THEY think are accurate even if you disagree)

6) In 980 you acknowledge that in fact there could be arrogance, and declare that this isn't hard to fake as scum (without evidence supporting this btw)

7) In 985 you declare that the only arrogance I've shown is angry arrogance. You continue declaring that this is easy to fake as scum, again without any evidence.

8) In 995 you simplify our conversation by redirecting it to the statement that I've only been antagonistic (which isn't true), and use that as an excuse to not bother providing evidence to support your assertions, especially notable given your earlier

@UD: Whatever. I still think that's a lot of fuss to avoid a short summary.

to me

9) In 996 you declare that antagonism is natural as scum, which is again not actually the case (most scum tend to be more accommodating, passive, and UTR, though obviously there are exceptions).

1)

Scum, by process of elimination, are most likely Revan, Ultimate Despair, and Superhans; lucca goes along with havingfitz in the "probably not scum" category.

It wasn't sheeping. I already had those reads.

2) True. Picking the correct lynch wasn't the point of that post; I'm doing that separately. I was simply pointing out a method to raise our chances.

4) I guess? I didn't think it was a big deal. I didn't really bother to check.

5-9) What I meant to say is that there isn't a big difference between those emotions. They're all antagonism, and all come naturally to scum. They don't even need to fake them.

Your emotionalism isn't necessarily townie emotionalism. If anything, it would be indicative of scum. And trying to defend yourself with behavioral tells (indicating your knowledge of them) is questionable at best. My FOS stands.

[lucca261]

@UD, 975: you were voting Mozamis. so, when's he lynched, your reaction is thinking that who hammered is scum? this makes no sense.

Vote Count 2.7

Mozamis

(3):

Superhans

, MagnaofIllusion, Ultimate Despair, havingfitz

Ultimate Despair

(3): lucca261,

mozamis

, revan, mozamis

Superhans

(1):

Revan

,

mozamis

, doomfeathers

Revan

(1): superhans,

mozamis

Not Voting

(1): Nahdia_Superfan,

superhans

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Nahdia_Superfan replaces wgeurts.

Deadline has been extended.

(expired on 2017-02-08 09:00:01) until deadline.

Wow MOI is on a wagon I should vote there.

VOTE: Mozamis

VOTE: Moz

K switching to Moz, agree that her reads seem fake, and Rev doesn't seem likely today.

Moz is on L1 btw.

K nm she is L0

Given that these were all on the same page, can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer?

-M

Forget the context of mozami's flip. Does this or does this not look suspicious to you? Do you NEED a flip to look at that and think it's questionable to have hammered while ignoring the vote that just happened that was both obvious and sketchy-looking? If yes, explain why. If no, explain why what I did was somehow problematic. Please also note that I QUESTIONED him about his vote. The "omg M pretended to hard-scum read Hans right as soon as that vote was made" bit is factually inaccurate and not consistent with what I did at all.

---

let's not forget UD though process here:

UD: "Hey, arrogance is a town-tell" --- "I do posts where I'm completely arrogant, appeal to emotion and demonstrate knowledge of alignment" --- "but I am arrogant, therefore I'm town" --- "why? because I'm arrogant, and arrogance is town"

At no point did I ever demonstrate knowledge of alignment, either wrt mozami or wrt you. Just becuase you say it a bunch of times does not mean it's true.

Also please demonstrate my AtE as you understand it, instead of trying to just attack me for what you claim to be seeing. A half-assed "summary" of what you read as my behavior is completely useless.

Yes, that hammer is scummy for me. It's scummy for me NOW. If Mozamis had flipped scum, it wouldn't be scummy. I said so, multiple times. This is not my point. You finding the hammer scummy or non-scummy is NAI. We can't forget the context of Mozamis flip. You're asking me to throw out an important piece of the puzzle.

If you think that quicklynching a town slot, and quicklynching a scum slot is similar, you're crazy. You can't possibly think that. My point is that if you really believed that Mozamis was scum, you would have a different reaction. You were voting him, You seemingly thought he was scum. But before the flip, you react bad to a hammer on a town player. That's knowledge of alignment.

---

I believe you did. I've read your posts as this.

the appeal to emotion part should be attack the enemy. I got confused by the acronyms. sorry.

[lucca261]

---

in the middle of the UD crazyness, I don't like that Hans jumped at the discussion to defend himself, made no points, and gets out proclaiming UD as town (?) because of his bad excuse.

Hans-UD-Nahdia, anybody?

nahdia has posted nothing.

revan disappeared from the face of the earth as soon as pressure laid off him.

doom is posting scummy shit and trying to go for every lynch he can.

superhans is superhans.

I've done enough posts about UD.

---

safe to say my only townreads are Magna and Fitz atm. not voting Nahdia, Doom or Revan today, too.

today we should lynch between UD and Hans.

So nearly everyone is scummy, and you posit that Nahdia is part of the scum team, but you're not voting there, or for what you represent as pretty clearly scummy behavior from Doom and Revan, but instead decide that the lynch must be between UD and Hans.

That's a lot of "scummy town" that you say you're seeing. What exactly separates those out from either my or Hans slots? If you're going to basically represent that the whole board is scummy, I'm curious why you think that either I or Hans, much less both of us, stand out strongly from the others. What, other than "well I think it's UD/Hans", makes the others scummy town?

-M

yes, nearly everyone is scummy. I have only solid townreads at the moment. Nahdia and Doom are more like null. Both of them, because I was townreading them before D3. This is what it's different between you and them. You and Hans did scummy shit today. Revan has not.

I think that you and hans are scum. Revan lean scum, Nahdia and Doom are null.

Are you trying to say that I'm not comitting to a read? That I only started scumreading you both now? I'm scumreading you both for a long time. I have a lot of more scum points against you and hans that I have against other people.

---

It's just that I don't think that Revan and Doom would make sense with you both. So leaving Nahdia. Not difficult.

[doomfeathers]

doom is posting scummy shit and trying to go for every lynch he can.

Yeah, no. I've kept it pretty much in the pool of (UD, Revan, Superhans) which I think is most likely to contain scum. I'm not wagoning MoI today, and probably not you, Fitz, or Nahdia.

[doomfeathers]

Did I? I'm pretty sure I took it as evidence that your stated read didn't have substance behind it, and therefore was potentially insincere. Why do you think I interpreted it as you being antagonistic? Or did you mean that I was being antagonistic to you there?

I meant that you seemed to react as if I was being antagonistic, demonstrating that I had, in fact, demonstrated how easily antagonism can be faked.

[Superhans]

Open 669-

Spoiler: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem

Nightless Vengeful Mayhem is an open setup designed by Tragedy.

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia 2-Shot Day Goon
9 Vanilla Townies

This setup is Nightless.

The Mafia 2-Shot Day Goon may shoot only once per game day.

The vote count resets when a Mafia daykill goes through.

A Townie who has been lynched on Day 1 may choose to act as a Vengeful Townie and take someone else down with him/her. This applies only on Day 1.

The mafia may discuss in their private topic during the day.

Standard Role PMs

Mafia Goon

You are a Mafia Member, Aligned with the Mafia.
Your allies are ??? (Mafia Member) & ??? (Mafia Two-Shot Daykill Member). You may communicate with them HERE.
You win when the number of Mafia Members equals the amount of Citizens.

Mafia Two-Shot Day Goon

You are a Mafia Two-Shot Daykill Member, Aligned with the Mafia.
Your allies are ??? (Mafia Member) & ??? (Mafia Member). You may communicate with them HERE.
During each day, you may choose to kill someone, by PMing the moderator. You only have 2 shots to use, so use them wisely.
You win when the number of Mafia Members equals the amount of Citizens.

Townie

You are a Citizen, Aligned with the Town.
If you are voted out on the first day, you may take someone else down with you.
You win when you manage to eliminate every single member of the Mafia.[/spoiler]

LIVING PLAYERS

MagnaofIllusion
Nahdia_Superfan

wgeurts

Revan
Ultimate Despair
lucca261
Superhans
doomfeathers
havingfitz

LINKS

Day 1: Post #25
First Blood: Post #175
Day 2: Post #497
Day 3: Post #842

Spoiler: dead

Hawk,

Townie

Friend Computer,

Townie

Sesq,

Townie

mozamis,

Townie

[/spoiler]

@Lucca
You're comfortable disregarding Revan because he's lurked all if today?

[Superhans]

Did not mean to quote that.

[Ultimate Despair]

0) I never said you are faking arrogance. This is again you putting things on my mouth. I said that your tone is of scum trying to get through the pressure.

"Your tone is not an arrogant tone. Your tone is of desperate scum that is trying to disprove anything that is thrown of you because it's a bad case. "
The implication is that I was faking an arrogant tone. This is not me putting words in your mouth, this is me responding to what you said. I acknowledge that I simply could have misread you there, but I certainly don't see how it was unreasonable to do so.

1) You are only trying to answer stuff if people pressure you? If it wouldn't be a problem, you wouldn't answer at all? Regardless of who you are, you are a better player than to not know why I think this.

I wasn't pressured, I was (seemingly) ASKED to provide it. 871 doom asks

Do you have a problem with restating what you've said for the sake of convenience, then?

and then I provided it in 877. Pressure on me for the most part came AFTER that big post (Hans had me on one of his potential lists, Revan called me/Hans as a possibility, not really much else during d3 up to that point, and the only vote made at that point was Hans on Revan).

So clearly I didn't answer due to pressure. So what exactly is the problem you see here? Is this simply something where you THOUGHT that I was under pressure when I provided that data? Do you dispute my version of the facts of the board as they existed at that point in time?

2) Why is this question relevant? Why should I care about what part of the argument would made he believe it or no. If he is town, he has no reason to not believe it. NO REASON. And I think he's town. So he believes in all parts of the argument. (This is UD asking me a nonsense question, that I obviously won't answer, so he can say: "Hey, lucca doesn't answer questions."

It's actually not a nonsense question. It's asking you to look at the specifics of what he was doing with a critical eye. I was curious if you were capable or interested in doing this. Apparently the answer is no.

3) In every interaction you have with people you have to believe something. You believe that I'm super derp town. I believe that you slipped. What is the problem?

My problem is that your argument that I "slipped" is nonsensical. My problem is that it's difficult to distinguish between lazy townies who push this because they're lazy, and scum who push this because it's an easy argument to use to pretend to be useful.

---

1) the thing that differenciate both is the attack part. town would be concerned with defend yourself by attacking the case. you are trying to attack the player to disprove them.

Town attack the players who attack them all the time. This isn't your first game, this shouldn't be news to you. You may WISH that town only attacked arguments and not people but I don't believe that this it's somehow news to you that people do not, in fact, play this way. Also...

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? Do you truly think that town who thinks that the case aginast him is bullshit would only attack arguments and not the people making them?

2) yes, I should believe that what UD is doing is not scummy, because UD said so. You have said that you treat people as town unless you think they're scum. I think that you have slipped. It's different opinions of a same situation.

How many times in your career have you seen this argument being made that someone is treating someone else as town (especially as a response to a push) being a "slip" that they know their alignment? How many times has this argument been correct? Again, this isn't your first game, you should have background that you can use to evaluate the effectiveness of this "tell" (hint: it's a terrible tell and virtually no one can reliably tell alignment from this).

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

Did I? I'm pretty sure I took it as evidence that your stated read didn't have substance behind it, and therefore was potentially insincere. Why do you think I interpreted it as you being antagonistic? Or did you mean that I was being antagonistic to you there?

I meant that you seemed to react as if I was being antagonistic, demonstrating that I had, in fact, demonstrated how easily antagonism can be faked.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I don't think I really understand what you're getting at, or which of my posts to you in particular was an example of this.

-M

[lucca261]

doom is posting scummy shit and trying to go for every lynch he can.

Yeah, no. I've kept it pretty much in the pool of (UD, Revan, Superhans) which I think is most likely to contain scum. I'm not wagoning MoI today, and probably not you, Fitz, or Nahdia.

that is the problem. you are not committing to somebody you want to lynch. You are putting the three most scumread player together and saying: "I'm fine with lynching any of these three".

you are leaving to the other players to decide who we will be lynching, and I don't like that.

[Ultimate Despair]

5-9) What I meant to say is that there isn't a big difference between those emotions. They're all antagonism, and all come naturally to scum. They don't even need to fake them.

Your emotionalism isn't necessarily townie emotionalism. If anything, it would be indicative of scum. And trying to defend yourself with behavioral tells (indicating your knowledge of them) is questionable at best. My FOS stands.

How does antagonism come naturally to scum? Have you ever played scum? Are you normally antagonistic when you get a red PM? Can you provide any actual examples of this?

"Aggressive curiosity" is a term I've heard (and liked) about what makes a fundamentally townie mindset. A scum mindset is sometimes to actively fool town, but more commonly to (at least in ideal circumstances) passively coast while town eats itself (thus the term "active lurking" as a good summary of a typical scum approach). Antagonism is GENERALLY not a scummy trait, unless it's rooted in something fundamentally pro-scum.

With that in mind, what EXACTLY in my emotionalism seems scummy to you? What about my antagonism seems rooted in a pro-scum mindset? The simple fact of my antagonism's existence is certainly not scummy behavior, which frankly should be apparent after having played just a couple games of mafia, so you'd need to connect that emotion to a scummy mindset (or demonstrate that it's faked) for it to have any validity as a tell. I'm curious if you're capable of or interested in doing this.

-M

[Ultimate Despair]

@doomfeathers: it seems like you've been mafia once and town the rest of your games (among your completed games). How would you describe how your mindset varied between when you were town and when you were scum?

-M

[havingfitz]

Mod...I'm v/LA until Monday morning.

Is it my imagination or did a lot of walls go up since I last posted? ffs....

I'll try to post some over the weekend but SB and family have priority

[havingfitz]

So essentially you were so sure of Moz flipping scum that you didn't worry about a sketchy-looking sheep vote cast right before your own?

So you thought it was sketchy but rather than point anything out about that you shade Hans for what he claims is an accidental vote. Something you are familiar with. Now you bring up the sketchy vote before Hans' vote. Had you said anything earlier? I looked and couldn't find anything.

[havingfitz]

This is effectively what I call “Inadvertant Mafia Mind-set Slippage”. Specifically Hans as scum knows he has two partners and keeps posting about pairings when as Town he should be showing some level of cognizance that there are three people on the team. Is it a smoking gun? Not 100% but when I was reviewing my ISO I found multiple other instances (318, 427) where I had tagged Super’s posting as suspect but dismiss overall given relational reads that didn’t pan out.

I actually like this tell. It gives my read on Hans a hit. He was probably in my top 2 or 3 town reads but he's dropped to needs a closer look. Do some meta digging.

Why did you wait until Hans started suspecting you MOI to break out this little tell gem? Did you not notice it until today (i.e. D3)?