Open 58--Texas Showdown - Over - before 545

[Incognito]

/yeeeee-haw.

[Incognito]

Looks like it's Jester.

[Incognito]

Are we even allowed to start? The post still says "Confirming Roles Now".

[Incognito]

Not a random

Vote: somestrangeflea.

We have to start somewhere but basically something about the opening posts seems a bit odd to me. somestrangeflea questions "who exactly

is

the fifth person?" when he could have easily looked that information up in the Queue where we all signed up. If somestrangeflea and Jester are the undercover police officers, this could have been an early attempt at distancing as he couldn't

possibly

be linked to Jester since he didn't even know Jester was in the game. And then Jester's pre-start random vote lands on somestrangeflea for preventing Jester's chance at voting for the Ramen noodles guy (Flameaxe). Another attempt at distancing?

[Incognito]

First Votecount. The winner of the Overthinker of the Year award is Incognito!

YES! I WIN!

Wait, but isn't that kinda like mod interference or something? Like the mod is basically confirming that I'm wrong? Or am I doing more overthinking? Rofl.

For the record, I don't think an L-1 this early in this particular game is really that bad. If someone quick-hammered, the hammerer could basically be taken out through the revenge kill (if the person who was quick-lynched also happened to be a drug trafficker). Do you not agree, Jester?

[Incognito]

Mod: Can we get a reminder sent to Flameaxe? He's the only one who hasn't posted since the game began.

[Incognito]

Question: How feasible do you believe it is that the aforementioned actions were a part of a planned distancing tactic?

I'm not sure exactly. I read the Wiki page before beginning to play this game to see what may have happened in the past with these Vengeful games (the same link that Jester just provided). There was mentioning about the early mafia victories where one partner would act fairly scummy, the other partner would call his partner out on his scummy actions, they would lynch the scummy-acting player, and this would seem to "confirm" the person who called the partner out for acting scummy.

Therefore when this game began, the first thing I was looking for was any kind of distancing that may have been happening between two players. Your comment about Jester caught my eye, and then when Jester eventually voted for you, I was

really

intrigued enough to mention it and place a vote on you. Mainly I was looking for reactions and then the mod and I were playing this game more than any of the other players.

[Incognito]

Any news on Flameaxe? The game seems to be stalling.

[Incognito]

For all players: If you were lynched right now, who would you vig and why?

It's still very early to ask this question but if I were lynched right at this very moment on Page 2 of the thread, I would probably lynch whoever placed that Hammer vote on me. Considering the fact that all five of us seem to have at least some level of experience on the site, I wouldn't expect town to quick-hammer a person on Page 2.

I'm very tempted to call Flameaxe out for lurking in plain sight though. I can understand a V/LA during a computer upgrade but judging from his profile, he's been active in his other games and finally decides to check back into this one after I call him out for not posting.

FoS: Flameaxe

[Incognito]

Unvote; Vote: Flameaxe

Start talking?

[Incognito]

I just did.

I mean game-related discussion. Do you have any suspicions? Do you care to comment on anything that has been discussed? Do you feel uncomfortable at L-1? Who is your scum buddy? Stuff like that. =)

[Incognito]

Let's try typing them then and then perhaps hitting submit? That might be more fun.

[Incognito]

...Who is your scum buddy?

I am saying them, you just can't hear them because you can't hear me talk on a forum.

An admittance?

Seriously, Flameaxe, why did you sign up for this game if you're not going to contribute anything?

[Incognito]

l0l ur funneh. Let me ask you, which post is the truly a "bend around"? My post 50 or your post 52?

Hmm. Not a hard question.

[Incognito]

orite.

Because my quoting of one of the series of questions I asked you and quoting your response to that entire series of questions is truly a "bend around". But I guess the fact that you've added supplementary text to your Post 52 isn't a "bend around". You're a genius.

[Incognito]

Rofl. If I'm hammered, I know exactly who I'm vigging.

Good night.

[Incognito]

Can I ask for some clarification? Your original vote for me was because I was "lurking in plain sight", and now I'm contributing just as much as you, point out a flaw in your play, push it, and now I'm scum for that too? Gotcha.

You're contributing just as much as me only because I called you out for lurking. Your lurking was the reason I placed a vote on you. And I never stated that I think you're scum - I placed a vote on you to pressure you into talking more and it seems to have worked. I really don't know what to make of your actions as of right now but like I said, I wouldn't have a problem vigging you if I was lynched more because I think you're acting like an ass rather than me thinking you're scum.

[Incognito]

Fos: Flameaxe and Incognito

for blatant distancing.

Both Flameaxe and I are both at L-1. How in the world could you claim this to be distancing especially since the mafia in this game consists of a Godfather (whom, if killed, would result in a mafia loss) and a Goon? That would be a 50/50 chance for one of the remaining players to hammer one of us and cause us to lose the game if we were both scum.

FoS: Nocmen

[Incognito]

Mod:

Can we get a prod on somestrangeflea? I'd like to see his thoughts on recent events.

[Incognito]

Finally, someone's opinion on the matter besides mine, Flameaxe's, and Nocmen's.

Both Flameaxe and I are both at L-1.

True, but only one vote on each of you (each other's) seems serious. somestrangeflea's vote was his first post, and Nocmen's stated reason for voting for you is that your name is "weirdlyish".

Do you really think that Nocmen's vote is still not serious? Yeah, his initial reason for voting for me was because my name is "weirdlyish" but do notice that he did place an FoS on both Flameaxe and I, and he hasn't unvoted me despite the fact that I'm at L-1. Also did you notice his apparent contradiction? Have a look at what Nocmen said here:

I agree somewhat with what Jester said, but I think that it would be completely stupid for the lynched to automatically go after the hammer, unless it was a quicklynch at the end, and even then theres still some excpetions to that. If someone was trying to convince for a lynch for a while after voting for someone, and then someone ended up lynching the person they were attacking, I would in that situation go after who was trying to convince the town, as they most likely would be the scum.

Here, he mentions that he somewhat agrees with you when you mentioned that it's far too early to have someone at Lynch - 1 but yet he

still

hasn't removed his vote from me even though he realizes the situation. In fact, I believe the only part of your Post 36 that Nocmen agreed with was the fact that it's too early to have someone at Lynch - 1. He then added his own bit of opinion on the matter after he mentioned he somewhat agreed with you.

It

is

interesting that you want to hear somestrangeflea's point of view, though! He's the other vote on Flameaxe right now. Suppose he takes Flameaxe's side, switches his vote, and finishes you off? You've strongly implied that you're going to use your vig on Flameaxe, so you're giving somestrangeflea a free pass to hammer you. It's a risky tactic on your part. It therefore either speaks to your townishness or your cunning as a scum.

I wanted somestrangeflea's point of view mainly because he's been fairly laconic since the last time he posted, which was about this time last week. You had posted before the weekend so I felt like you were monitoring the thread. Nocmen's and Flameaxe's statuses were obvious. somestrangeflea has been quiet though. My mentioning of vigging the Flameaxe is driven more by personal reasons though since I think he’s an ass so I’d love to shoot him lol. Nocmen’s response to this situation and his apparent contradiction has me questioning his alignment though so if anything, I would probably vig Nocmen instead if I were hammered.

[Incognito]

I keep the FoSes on the two of you fighting still, and this sudden agreement of how much you were fighting now raises suspicion a bit more.

What agreement?

[Incognito]

Meh, that's not really an agreement. That's more you pointing out an error in Jester's 65.

[Incognito]

As it stands, I think it's a dead cert that at least

one

of them is scum, though I'm not sure which...

Flea: I don't like the way you've set this up as only one absolute possibility. The way I see it, there's really only two possible scenarios here: 1) Flameaxe and I are both town or 2) one of us is town and the other is scum. While I can only speak on behalf of my own alignment, your statement could be a subtle attempt at paving the way for a mis-vig if one of us is lynched. And considering the fact that this is Vengeful, that would be an automatic town loss.

Therefore,

unvote

while I think and while we receive more input about this.

[Incognito]

SSF: While you're here, who do you see as the most likely scum-pairing given the current information we have at hand?

Actually, that might be a good idea to ask everyone. Can everyone please answer the question above?

[Incognito]

I'm still pretty sure at this point that Nocmen is scum. Who the other is, I have no idea. I notice that you didn't answer your own question. Still think FlameAxe is scum? If so, who do you think his partner is?

I'm glad you asked actually. I believe the scum pairing is Flameaxe and Nocmen. Here's my reasoning:

Firstly, Flameaxe had basically been lurking until I called him out about it.

Secondly, as you've mentioned in the thread previously, Nocmen's posts have said next to nothing all game.

Thirdly, I found the following post from Nocmen to be interesting:

Well he posted on Tuesday, and I haven't seen you post in a while besides meta content.

This was a post that Nocmen made after I asked the mod for news about Flameaxe's status. Prior to this post, Nocmen had made a post about Flameaxe's non-contributive ways, Flameaxe posted to let us know that he would be V/LA, I allowed a few days to pass before asking for his status again, and despite the fact that Flameaxe STILL hadn't really contributed, Nocmen still made the above statement in Post 39 which seems to defend Flameaxe, AND he went even further to cast deflective suspicion back at me despite the fact that I had been more contributory than the both of them combined.

Fourthly, Nocmen's comment about mine and Flameaxe's supposed distancing struck me as off, as I've mentioned previously, and I could see that as Nocmen's attempt to link his own scum partner with me.

[Incognito]

Mod:

Um. I'm currently not voting.

[Incognito]

Oh, and

Unvote, Vote: Incognito

.

Question: Why? You never really stated your reasons.

[Incognito]

Hmmm. Well in that case my vote belongs on Nocmen and since Nocmen most likely will not hammer himself, then I guess I'm gonna be today's lynch.

Vote: Nocmen

[Incognito]

Incognito, you've now voted for everyone except me. You went out of your way to say that your first vote, on somestrangeflea, was not random. Care to talk about why it wasn't random?

I've mentioned previously that somestrangeflea's initial comments were noteworthy and so I placed a vote on him to generate discussion and maybe even some pressure if I did turn out to be right (about the distancing I mentioned early on). At the time, it seemed like a good place to begin conversation and eventually gauge reactions. It seems like my reasons for doing so were eventually overshadowed by the mod's comments and so the discussion and reactions that

could

have been generated from my vote on somestrangeflea were somewhat lost.

My subsequent votes on Flameaxe and now Nocmen are justifiable, imo. My vote on Flameaxe was placed to bring him out of lurking and now my vote on Nocmen is justified by my reasoning that I've outlined in one of my previous posts about scum pairs. Also noteworthy about Nocmen is his sudden shift in position of his scum pairings. Before, he stated that Flameaxe and I were "blatantly distancing", and I mentioned previously that I saw that as his attempt to link me with his own scum partner. More recently, he moved SSF to his number 2 spot and shifted Flameaxe down to his number three.

Now that somestrangeflea has placed me at L-1 for reasons that he classified as "not very strong" when Nocmen has pretty clearly stated that he believes I am one of the scum and could therefore hammer me, SSF has got me questioning his alignment as well.

[Incognito]

Jeeze, Khelvaster! This is the vote count:

Nocmen (2) -- Jester, Incognito
Incognito (2) -- Flameaxe, somestrangeflea

Not voting -- Nocmen

[Incognito]

Incognito's lack of crap-case defence confuses me. Both scum and town should be defending themselves against craplogic, but he hasn't. I was also thinking of voting him for inconsistencies regarding his playstyle. Firstly he was overthinking, and now he can't see crap in front of him? But again, both town or scum could be doing this.

I'm confused. Why would I need to defend myself against a crap-logic case? You stated quite clearly that your reason for voting for me was not very strong. From my perspective, a person who hammered me basing their vote off of the case you created against me would most likely be scum. Are you suggesting that I should have directed an attack against you for creating a crap-logic case against me? And if you yourself knew that the case was crap-logic, why would you still push it forward and place me at L-1 when Nocmen has already voiced his opinion about my alignment? You're making yourself look scummier and scummier.

Nocmen, so now you've shifted your number three suspect into your number one hole?

[Incognito]

So you're talking about the numbers portion of your post 77?

[Incognito]

I personally didn't understand them and didn't see them as an attack against me. Further, the only time numbers like those have any relevance in a game of Mafia is when you're assuming the players are randomly voting for one another without using information that was drawn from the game thread. Therefore, I personally decided not to comment on them because it didn't seem like a strong argument anyway regardless of whether or not your numbers were actually correct, and I thought they seemed a tad self-righteous (I don't know about all of you but I'm definitely town so you guys fit into these numbers, not me!). It seems like Nocmen's issue with them is that he classified them as WIFOMy. I'm guessing that he means in the sense where your numbers rely on us assuming that you're town, which is a difficult assumption for us to make unless of course two of the people who read your numbers were scum and could definitely know that you're town.

Flameaxe doesn't seem to be reading the thread, period, so I would imagine that's why he didn't comment on them. I can't speak for Jester's reason though.

[Incognito]

What's wrong with some good ol' pressure on the lurker?

Nothing. But this is what you said:

But for now,

Vote: Flameaxe

. With this new lurking adding to what he has contributed this game, I really think he is scum.

[Incognito]

BUMP! This thing got bumped to page 2 with MeMe's locking of threads.

[Incognito]

Blah.

[Incognito]

I agree, I am still waiting to hear from Flameaxe, but Incognito's blah...?

Nocmen, you make me laugh. Are you seriously trying to stoop low enough to suggest that my "blah" could be a scum tell? Can someone hammer this guy already?

P.S. You still haven't responded to the post I wrote about you a few posts up. That's what

I'm

personally waiting for (in addition to more feedback from the Flameaxe).

[Incognito]

I wonder what's more likely - us coming to an agreement on a lynch or Khelvaster actually getting a vote count correct EVAR.

Khel, SSF isn't voting me anymore; he's not voting at all right now. Also, could you

pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease

prod Flameaxe?

[Incognito]

What's wrong with some good ol' pressure on the lurker?

Nothing. But this is what you said:

But for now,

Vote: Flameaxe

. With this new lurking adding to what he has contributed this game, I really think he is scum.

[Incognito]

Ooooh. Good intentions but somehow I don't think Flameaxe is coming back unless we get that mod prod that we're dying for.

[Incognito]

Welcome back, Flameaxe. You could... you know... start posting about current happenings. We really shouldn't have to push you to do so.

[Incognito]

UNVOTE; VOTE: FLAMEAXE

=D

[Incognito]

Mod,

can you deadline this or something? Vengeful games shouldn't take

this

long, and Flameaxe doesn't seem like he'll participate unless it's deadlined.

[Incognito]

Mod,

can you deadline this or something? Vengeful games shouldn't take

this

long, and Flameaxe doesn't seem like he'll participate unless it's deadlined.

Am I supposed to ask myself questions? Sorry, but it's not a one man game. There are three other people that need to post too, buddy.

Are you really that deluded? Dude, look at your contribution and then look at everyone else's and then come talk to me.

[Incognito]

Mod,

can you deadline this or something? Vengeful games shouldn't take

this

long, and Flameaxe doesn't seem like he'll participate unless it's deadlined.

Am I supposed to ask myself questions? Sorry, but it's not a one man game. There are three other people that need to post too, buddy.

Are you really that deluded? Dude, look at your contribution and then look at everyone else's and then come talk to me.

Looks fine to me.

Ah so you

are

deluded. How unfortunate.

[Incognito]

Can someone either a) hammer Flameaxe or b) place a second vote on my bandwagon and then someone else hammer me so I could vig the shit out of Flameaxe? If Flameaxe is town, then I don't even care anymore if we lose. I'd be satisfied just vigging him.

[Incognito]

I don't give a shit.

Unvote; Vote: Incognito

Hammer me, plz.

[Incognito]

Bah! Go, drug dealers, etc. We'll discuss at end-game.

[Incognito]

Nocmen was the last scum?

[Incognito]

Yay! Good game all! Well done SSF and Jester!

Oh and about this:

Damn it. Incognito, that was unbelievably stupid. If you'd cooled your jets for 24 hours, we probably could have lynched Flameaxe instead of you vigging him. I don't think I've ever seen a clearer demonstration of why self-voting is anti-town, and why rushing only helps scum.

I couldn't disagree more. I think the timing of my self-vote and the way I did it seemed extremely pro-town since it suggested that I really do have a vig-kill that I could use if I was hammered.

The self-vote was actually a trap that I didn't think would work. I figured only scum would

actually

hammer me if I placed myself at L-1 and that's exactly what Nocmen ended up doing. I thought he gave himself away when he said this:

I hammered him because it seemed the best surefire way to get Flameaxe dead at the time, but now I realized the risk that I took being that he could have been town, though it was unlikely.

Only scum could know with absolute certainty that by hammering me I would also have my vig-kill to use to take out another player (in this case Flameaxe). In the above, he only states that he wasn't sure if

Flameaxe

was town but mentions nothing about his feelings about me. I wouldn't have even asked questions on Day 2. My vote would have deffo been on Nocmen after those actions.

Anyway, good game!

[Incognito]

Only scum could know with absolute certainty that by hammering me I would also have my vig-kill to use to take out another player (in this case Flameaxe). In the above, he only states that he wasn't sure if

Flameaxe

was town but mentions nothing about his feelings about me.

This is exactly why I voted for Nocmen. And of course, I'd been getting a weird vibe off Nocmen from about his third post.

Good catch.

I have to admit that when this game wasn't lulling along it was a pretty fun game. I actually kinda enjoyed arguing with Flameaxe and vigging him was soooooooo satisfying in the end. Haha. I know I should have cooled my jets but I seriously didn't expect anyone to hammer me after that self-vote. o_O

Khelvaster, I liked the flavor text added by you also. Nice job modding.