Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, here's the answere to my own question: I will preface this by saying this will be quite long, so please set aside a long enough portion of time to digest it all.


People I would probably be willing to lynch today, and why. (note, by far the highest is zoneace, as he has done that tell which I am talking about.) Also, let me note that unlike the rest of you, I am being very agnostic about the roles in this game being open. That is to say, I am going strictly off of how I view the tells, and I am not at all giving anyone a free pass in this game, regardless of role, because ultimately, if the scum have a pro town role, like DAS role, they're still scum in the end. Therefore, if I think someone is scum, they will get my vote, regardless of if they're the bomb, the tracker, or the doctor etc etc etc.

Zoneace:

K. I have several reasons I want to lynch him, and not a single one of them is OOG as he would like to claim. First and foremost is the DWA. In my opinion his actions are not consistent with petulant town, because he quite clearly ignored me earlier when I made a post which contained no weak arguments. That is to say, when I was asking him questions earlier which gave him no ability to attack me, he ignored them. In my mind, if ZA were a townie who was fed up with me, he would continue to simply ignore my posts. Instead, he saw an opportunity where he could "look townie" by shoving me into the mud, and he took it. This is pretty strong if you ask me.

Secondly, there is this:

we should lynch them because they are witholding ...information from the town, and that is strictly ANTI TOWN

(elipses mine)
I am always a big fan of looking at what other people claim to be scumtells, because I am of the firm opinion that most people tend to gather what they consider to be tells from what they themselves tend to do as scum. This means that if someone does something that they themselves call a tell, I consider it a pretty big red flag for lynching them. Remember this statement?

fos CKD

for his reaction to cam. That was rather unusual.

K, how bout some not already discussed insight?

no thats all i got for now.

Which was quickly proceded by this one:

I wasn't clear. That's the only insight i felt like sharing so far. My bad.

So clearly zoneace is witholding something from the rest of the town, which, he's been pretty adament is something that there is no reason to do in this game, since we know everyones roles. And he's also pretty clear on the fact that witholding information is "very anti town."

Now, to look at this from another angle, it's really not possible for zoneace to simultaniously think "witholding information is scummy" and "withold information" This makes me think that there WAS nothing else that he noticed, and he was lying about noticing anything else significant, which puts him in a pretty bad double blind, because we know pretty damn well how he feels about liars.


Third, and lastly, I do not like the way he is prone to misinterpreting statements to make him look better and whoever he is arguing with look worse. Consider these statements.
Exhibit A: What I said.

...
See, this is why I hate having this discussion. I can think of literally hundreds of reasons a pro town player would lie. I have put forward this view in tons of threads before this game even began. If you'd like to lynch me for it, then fine.

The point is a much more sound strategy is to treat a lie like any other in game action. Does the lie accomplish a town goal, or does it accomplish a anti town goal. If I claim vanilla when I am actually a cop to avoid getting NKed so that I can get to more investigation results, does that mean I'm "not playing to my win condition...Or to an anti-town win condition?" No, of course not. It means I'm playing the game smart. There are plenty of times when lying is anti town, and in those situations it should be a reason to lynch, but to say that any lie is inherently anti town is foolish.

(elipses added)
Now, my argument is pretty clearly not against lynching liars. My argument is that lying has possible pro town use, and that when we catch someone in a lie, we should evaluate if that lie was helpful to the town or not, and if it was, we let it be, and if it was not, we lynch the fucker. I back this up with an example of a situation where it might be advantageos for a player to lie, as a means of combatting the LAL meta in general.

I give you exhibit B, Zoneaces interpretation of my post:

. If I claim vanilla when I am actually a cop to avoid getting NKed so that I can get to more investigation results,

Umm did you forget the part of the game where we already know YOU'RE THE ONLY VANILLA IN THE GAME???? In this game lying about your role is pointless, because we friggin know everyone's already. In a normal game, yes a cop claiming vanilla to avoid NK is a viable option, but in a game like this, give me a good reason why i shouldn't lynch someone caught lying?????


I dare you shea. come on. Why are you SO averse to lynching liars. you planning on lying to us later? want to set up your defense now?

First of all, he only focuses on my example. All of a sudden, I have been presented as making a claim about this game. He presents it as obviously false in an attempt to ridicule me. Of course it was obviously false in this game. It's patently obvious from my last post that I wasn't talking about this game specifically (come on, I would have to think you guys are REALLY dumb to try to pass that comment off as relevent to this game in any way other than an example in general of when lying can be beneficial.)

Secondly, all of a sudden I am "averse to lynching liars" a claim that I never made. According to zoneace, I was basically telling everyone to lie, and that I would never ever lynch someone who lies ever. This is a pretty concrete example of whats known as a strawman fallacy, which is another pretty good scum tell. Zoneace is pretending that I was arguing something that I never was in order to make me easier to defeat. He is, in a sense, arguing against a straw man, because he sure as hell isn't arguing against anything I've ever said.

Then, lastly, all of a sudden I have alterior motives. This is another little scumtell of mine, called "poisoning the well" Zoneace is attempting to claim (on the sly) that I hold my opinions that LAL is bad for the reason that I plan on lying, and I am, ostensibly, scum. Something that he would know is not true if he did even the slightest of research about my comments in MD. Basically, I'm one of the loudest proponents of "judge the action by it's game implications, and don't make blanket statements."

I think all of this boils down to a pretty solid case against zoneace. I would be willing to lynch him if it were say day 3-4, but this is flippin day one, so I'm even more willing to do so. This is certainly the best lynch we can hope to get on todays information.

Jdodge,

I don't like how jdodge has taken the path of least resistance this game. If you'll note, he jumps only on people who are being VERY illogical. The first example is CKDs attack of mathcams voting system. The most recent example is his piling onto Zoneace. Neither is a path that is going to draw him much fire. He also has a habit of making posts that seem to say a lot, but in fact say very little. His 12th post in his "show all posts" while too big for me to quote it fully in this analysis, says almost nothing at all to move the game state forward. In fact, all it does really is skirt most issues, and continue the weak pawing at CKD.

Lastly, an excellent catch by Mathcam reveals that Jdodge is falling into a DWA of zonefaces devising. Although I don't think this is deliberate on the part of zoneace, as he was mocking the very concept earlier. The underlying logic is the same. A pro town player would not approach zoneace in the way that Jdodge has. A pro town player would attempt to engage him on a substantive level. Jdodge hasn't even given the slightest illusion of doing that. He's trying to score points, and that's pretty fucking scummy. I rate him my second scummiest in the game.

DAS:

I am not at all happy with how DAS has played this game. He seems to be lurking in plain site. He never chimes in on anything worthwhile. His most significant actions seem to be a) agreeing/disagreeing at the same that no lynch is the best plan for today.

The problem I have is this:
I see were Zone is coming from about the No Lynch, if he’s town but if we were to all take his stance and keep stum then it would be a pretty crap day 1. Im going to

FOS

for today and have another think tomorrow. As you can see he’s not going to t be drawn in to an argument no matter how hard some players try. I can’t see him slipping up and I think it’s a bad idea to lynch his role with the info we have. Which brings me on to TSQ, if Zone answers your questions tomorrow will you stop throwing needless insults at him? Just a thought…I do find it very weird he did not retaliate having just played a game with him though hence another reason for the FOS .
Im not going to vote Nolynch now. (Though there is room\time for me to be convinced). I don’t like the idea of SK and scum getting a free ride. I would rather apply some pressure and see what happens
Gordon, my other

FOS

goes on you. I think you have changed your mind too quickly to many times. You have had strong feelings about votes and other people’s reasons for reducing their vote and then you change your mind. Im not sure how helpful your roll is to town when compared to Zone. Please enlighten me...

And 2) Attacking zindaras for not being around.

I don't care who I am, as long as I get to be Sylar.

I'm going to pick Mohinder Suresh. Because I know how things work. You guys can pick the roles with targets on their heads, I'll survive. Because I'm a survivor. *insert cockroach here*

Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock.

and tick and tock and tick some more..
Where are ya?

FOS Zindaras

for acting like you want the game to start and then not posting when it does-
Even if you are pro-town you will no doubt come accross scum so I hope your not easily manipulated.

Is their any role that people would definitely not like me to protect tonight?

The main reason I get a scum vibe from him is the tone of his posts. Now, I will plead ignorant to his playstyle here. I will do some reasearch and see if he always plays in this manner, but it seems to me like most of his posts have this "Everyone is smarter than me don't look in this direction all you big brains can keep arguing amongst yourself don't worry about little ol me." This post is a good example of the general idea:

Right, most (if not all) people have a bigger brain then me in this game so
Im just going to try and help were I can. If you think im not giving enough please let me know and I will get myself replaced.
Claude ( Yseer ) If I had your role I would be looking at one of these 3 people
Here I my reasons why.
Mathcam: His role is dangerous in mafia hands the longer we go on the more dangerous it becomes. Even if he is town then I would like to know who was visiting him. If he is not their when you get their, we could have our SK
Adele: I would want to know exactly which powers she is getting and why. I think it would be helpful for judging her and her targeters alignments.
Omen: Similar reasons as Mathcams

Now you properly had all these in your head anyway but I wanted to put it out their as it might put scum\SK off

Which 3 people do you think I should be looking at and why?

This brings me to

zindaras

. Either zindie needs to be replaced, or he needs to be lynched, nuff said. He can't be given a free pass just because he's adorable. I am not willing to see this game suffer because he can't/won't post.

Yvonneseer

I kind of feel the same way about. He has been actually posting, but I don't know if I can say that she is actually playing this game, as most of the posts contain fluff, and are not terribly game relevent.


People I am not willing to lynch today for any reason:
1)

Shaft.ed.

I was worried about him for a large portion of the game, because he seemed to be riding my coat tails a little, including where he answers a question for me. However, over the course of this game, I have come to believe that we're really just on the same wave-length a lot of the time. His response to the DWA and also his argumentation in his run ins with both zoneace, and people who attack him have been substantive, and honestly seem to be trying to uncover alignment. This is a textbook townie reaction to both DWA, and the game of mafia in general. One thats so townie that it even might make you suspicious (don't tell ibeasha I said that) but he really rings genuine to me, and I would put him as my strongest town read.

Oman

Now, this is a bit of a misslable, because I do not think I can say with confidense that I would never lynch oman no matter what. I don't think I'd even be confident in saying I have a town read on him. I would say instead that I do NOT have a scum read on him, and that combined with the fact that some players that I view as scummy are attacking him, despite the fact that the case against him seems...Quite weak...Well, that makes me want to think he's more likely a GG at this point of the game.

curiouskarmadog

again a bit of a missnomer. He just strikes me as town who is not particulary good at defending himself. Thats all. Call it a gut feeling.

The following people I am having a bit of a problem getting a read on. I will look forward to interactions/their own lists later on in order to get a better handle on them. of this list the strongest scum possibility is mathcam. I would note that I find mathcams refusal to post a list, and catagorization of my request as a "demand" to be disturbing. For the record, here's how I phrased my question:

I think we need to get down to lynching someone for today. I will post the people I am willing to lynch, and why, and the people I am not willing to lynch, and why, later today. I suggest everyone else do the same, or, if you're like zoneace, do the same for NL.

That's pretty far from a demand. I feel like he may be trying to represent me s demanding something which is outragious and difficult, so that he can get off doing it, but that's really the only point I have against him. The stronges town tells have been coming from Gorgon, as he seems to be able to agree with who he's attacking when they make a good point. Example here:

I kinda agree with ZA here. He makes a good point. There's plenty of info out there already that can be applied tomorrow, in addition to the results of night actions.

(note, he had been attacking ZA pretty heavily here, and was voting him.)

That being said, I do not feel safe in saying I lean town or scum on any of the following, and therefore will call me reads on them neutral.
Adele
mathcam
curiouskarmadog
Gorgon

Lastly I have a question for zoneace. You seem very quick to catagorize the DWA as "crap" and a "waste of time" and "TSQ being a twat" But you don't address the actual logic of it. I would appreciate if you would go through the logic I presented in the argument, and tell me where you think the flaws are. That way, we can have a more relevant discussion of the tell. Right now, it just boils down to you saying "It's crap" and me saying "No it isn't." So if you could give me some kind of conceptualization of WHY it's crap, so I could argue against that, I would appreciate it.

[ZONEACE]

there is no logic to it, i reacted to your little "trap" because you said something that was complete bullshit. Am i now not supposed to call bullshit when bullshit is being played?


Honestly, how is saying your little point 2 was bullshit a scum tell? you have yet to explain that.


ANd theres a difference from witholding hunches (what I'm doing) and withholding/lying about actualy concrete info (what you are suggesting is ok for townies to do for some reason)

[Thestatusquo]

Actually, I explained it quite clearly. The scumtell is not that you called the second point bullshit. Any good player should and would do that. The point of DWA is that it's a shitty argument nestled between two really well reasoned one. The logical premise is that the player who is looking to discover alignment, and is arguing in earnest will respond to ALL of the points, including calling bullshit. The player who is not doing that. The scum player who is looking to "win" an argument to look good, is going to go for ONLY the DWA. Thats what you did, you went ONLY for the DWA, and didn't even touch on the other points that were raised in the post. (They were even numbered for you.)

The placement of the BS point wasn't an accident either. It was right in the middle. That means you had to read the first point, deduce that you couldn't put me down because of it, and THEN read the second point, see that you could use it to make me look bad, and then post.

The tell functions not because of what you attacked, but rather because of what you didn't even mention.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, the hunch thing. No there isn't. In fact, there is even less reason to withhold a hunch, because a hunch has absolutely no ability to be detrimental to the town if revealed.

[ZONEACE]

umm there was nothing to respind to on the first one, it was just you repeating your same bullshit defense of lying. Which id explained, was, well, BULLSHIT

And as for number 3, im supposed to know you're not bright enough to realize the difference between withholding unsolid/hunched info and withholding solid, night actioned info. Nothing i could have seen in the first couple of pages could have been even REMOTELY concrete, that should have been obvious, what with the lack of night and me not being a day tracker and all. But clearly that was a poor assumption on my part.

[ZONEACE]

Also, the hunch thing. No there isn't. In fact, there is even less reason to withhold a hunch, because a hunch has absolutely no ability to be detrimental to the town if revealed.

yeah thats not completely false or anyhting. I completely admit that I could be wrong in my hunch, and if i reveal it, it leads to a lynch and I'm wrong, we just lost a useful townie. So you see, until i get some more solid info I'd rather not discuss it. The last time i went with a day one hunch i fucked up Match of Champions completely.

[Thestatusquo]

The fact that you can think of responses now doesn't matter. In fact, it re-enforces the tell, even, because it proves the other arguments had substantive responses to them, which you ignored to go for the slam dunk.

[ZONEACE]

no they didnt
i jsut told you they didnt have substantive responses. There is no response to 1 cause you're dead set in your defense of liars plan. For some reason you think lying is the key to the town winning.

and the third. i bad an incorrect assumption about your ability to see the difference between a hunch and real, fact based assumptions.

so your scumtell jsut gets weaker and weaker by the minute, but go on believing you've caught the scum if thats really what makes you feel better.

[ZONEACE]

no they didnt
i jsut told you they didnt have substantive responses. There is no response to 1 cause you're dead set in your defense of liars plan. For some reason you think lying is the key to the town winning.

and the third. i

made

an incorrect assumption about your ability to see the difference between a hunch and real, fact based assumptions.

so your scumtell jsut gets weaker and weaker by the minute, but go on believing you've caught the scum if thats really what makes you feel better.

bold is a correction

[Thestatusquo]

no they didnt
i jsut told you they didnt have substantive responses. There is no response to 1 cause you're dead set in your defense of liars plan. For some reason you think lying is the key to the town winning.

and the third. i bad an incorrect assumption about your ability to see the difference between a hunch and real, fact based assumptions.

so your scumtell jsut gets weaker and weaker by the minute, but go on believing you've caught the scum if thats really what makes you feel better.

Now, my argument is pretty clearly not against lynching liars. My argument is that lying has possible pro town use, and that when we catch someone in a lie, we should evaluate if that lie was helpful to the town or not, and if it was, we let it be, and if it was not, we lynch the fucker. I back this up with an example of a situation where it might be advantageos for a player to lie, as a means of combatting the LAL meta in general.

[ZONEACE]

whatever, you're set in your "scumtell" but it will be proven wrong before the game is over and everyone will see in the future your tell is complete WIFOM bullshit.


ok, back to ignoring the pointless little man.

[Thestatusquo]

Just continue to argue against those pesky straw men, there, buddy.

[davidangelsummers]

Hi guys I am really sorry but im going to be asked to be replaced. I just don’t want to play a game with people that hold grudges and don’t have fun. The stupidity wont stop THQ will keep going at ZA and CKD will keep being a sarcastic…it’s just not fun. I wish everyone a great X-mas. I hope you have a great time with your family and friends. I wish you all the best. Im going to leave mafiascum for good I think..

Well done for the set-up Seol, it must have taken you ages to sort out.

Im off to Norway to see my avatar...so its not bad..
Ok, see ya

Happy Christmas
Dave

[Seol]

Sorry to hear that, DAS. I shall look for a replacement.

Have fun with Garfield.

[Oman]

curiouskarmadog again a bit of a missnomer. He just strikes me as town who is not particulary good at defending himself. Thats all. Call it a gut feeling.

My Meta on CKD is he has a better defence whilst scum then town. Though I've never seen him be quite so angry/sarcastic in a game.

[curiouskarmadog]

curiouskarmadog again a bit of a missnomer. He just strikes me as town who is not particulary good at defending himself. Thats all. Call it a gut feeling.

My Meta on CKD is he has a better defence whilst scum then town. Though I've never seen him be quite so angry/sarcastic in a game.

I can defend myself just fine..that being said, what am I defending myself against?

is there a case I didnt see?

[curiouskarmadog]

I will be gone until the 26th. Also giving you the heads up, I am in a ton of games so it might be slow going updating all the games I am in, but I will get to it when I get back.

Thanks for the entertainment, I hope you and yours have a good holiday!

[shaft.ed]

Dave I can feel your pain, I really don't feel much like jumping in to this conversation as it stands.

Enjoy your holiday!

[Thestatusquo]

I really don't see how I am "holding a grudge" Zoneace is my top choice, but I feel like I have given several reasons which are completely game related, and I would be willing to lynch almost ANYONE for, if they did the same thing. It's a strong case, it's not at all OOG.

In addition to that...I don't think anyone can say I have been focusing on zoneace to the exclusion of others. I give a very detailed run down of all the other players in the game, including two more top suspects (one of which has been attacking zoneace.)

I think to say that I am holding a grudge and attacking ZA for OOG reasons is disingenuous at best.

[curiouskarmadog]

for the record, I dont think that Shea is picking on ZA for OOG reasons, of course maybe a meta will tell me different but I dont have time for that..and even if he was, this doesnt give me a clue on the alignment of either.

I think shea (why do they call you that?) has some good points against ZA...mainly shea's third point in regard to ZA...

I am disappointed that DAS has quit, there was a lot of information (present and for future games) that could be found in shea's and ZA's tiff. BTW, if you cant deal with sarcasm in the world, I have a feeling you will be taking your ball and going home frequently in life. This entire site is chalked full of sarcasm and grudges...what makes a true mafia player is seeing through it and doing something with it. I would be a hypocrite if I said that shit on this site hasnt seriously pissed me off, but instead of walking away to a commitment, I just step back and take it for what it is...a game and continue on..

also shafted, I dont for a second believe the " I feel your pain" statement..why are you blaiming shea and ZA for your lack of posting "as it stands". You have the power to change it, add to it, start another line of conversation, or whatever, why dont you? Going to keep playing the victim?

[curiouskarmadog]

edit "to a commitment" = "from a commitment"

[Thestatusquo]

Shea is my real name.

I am disappointed that DAS has quit, there was a lot of information (present and for future games) that could be found in shea's and ZA's tiff. BTW, if you cant deal with sarcasm in the world, I have a feeling you will be taking your ball and going home frequently in life. This entire site is chalked full of sarcasm and grudges...what makes a true mafia player is seeing through it and doing something with it. I would be a hypocrite if I said that shit on this site hasnt seriously pissed me off, but instead of walking away to a commitment, I just step back and take it for what it is...a game and continue on..

I kind of see his point. I have been close to quitting this game several times, because to me a lot of the way my actions have been construed means that playing is difficult. Case in point, I legitimately find Zoneace scummy, and I keep getting catagorized as insulting him and "holding a grudge." it is REALLY really frustrating, and I have been tempted several times to just let someone deal with it. I'm making a note to never play with ZA ever again, as I don't want to be in a game where I cant play, but I've decided to "keep on trucking" as it is in this game. I will settle for a ZA, or a Jdodge lynch. (possibly a zindaras one:

Mod, Can we have zindaras replaced as well

) even though ZA is by FAR my biggest suspicion. I can't understand why he hasn't been lynched yet, to be frank. Well, I guess I can. It's a combination of people giving him a free pass based on his role, and also people thinking my case is weaker than it because they think I am attacking out of some sort of grudge.

CKD, you seem to be skirting the main issue here: Who do you want to lynch, and why?

[shaft.ed]

also shafted, I dont for a second believe the " I feel your pain" statement..why are you blaiming shea and ZA for your lack of posting "as it stands".

I generally don't like when any game gets into a back and forth between two players whether it be for in game reasons or not. i find it distracts from everyone else particularly on D1 and is a great way for scum to skate through the day. I should have elaborated on Shea's argument but I think I may have commented already:

I find his "tell" while possibly very valid in other situations to be weak here because ZONEACE has demonstrated a want to make TSQ look like an ass. But I do have to agree that ZA did attack the merit of the argument and didn't respond with a simple insult as he would have if going for assification. Also the edging of his position on No Lynch here may be considered a tell:

god i am SOO close to voting you. your completely useless power wise and you're proving yourself useless logic wise.

Finally I don't think your point about him witholding a hunch is entirely valid. A lot of times you don't want to point out a behavior because by itself it doesn't mean much, but if said behavior continues it could become a valid tell. Pointing out that you've noticed it would tip off the person you noticed doing it, thus not a great idea.

All toll I'd rank ZA slightly above Oman in scuminess. And I know this is going to annoy CKD, but I'm not moving my vote because I don't think the transgressions are enough to override the major discrepency in role value for the town.

You have the power to change it, add to it, start another line of conversation, or whatever, why dont you? Going to keep playing the victim?

Again I think you very much overstating my point here. I made one post venting minimal frustration on the situation, which was mostly just to wish DAS a good holiday. I don't see where I'm playing the victim with my statement. But I will admit your continued attacks on me, while having ZA to jump on do make me believe you are more likely to be town.

[Oman]

Shea's argument satisifies me, I am more unnerved by zoneace than shaft.ed right now, but only cause I feel he's stopped fabricating craplogic.

Unvote vote ZONEACE

[curiouskarmadog]

As much as I hate fence sitters, I am on the fence about ZA at the moment.

For meta reasons, posts like "That's the only insight i felt like sharing so far" doesnt seem scummy coming from ZA. I have recently seen ZA play scum and I feel (if ZA meant it the way it sounds) that his play is either just being an ass or anti-town (different than scum) or he is watching something (like a trap or such) and doesnt want to share. To me, this doesnt seem like something scum would say. Actually more, I dont think it is something ZAscum would say.

that being said, your 3rd (misrepresenting) point does seem scummy to me. Now I dont know if he is doing this as a way to attack you for OOG reasons, if he just was trying to defend himself by deflecting, or if he is just scum. I didnt like.

I dont think that ZA is the lynch today. I am pretty sure our scum (in this game) are quietly sitting back loving the fact you and ZA are going round and round, being agreeable with the masses, and trying to stir shit or push crap as quietly as possible..