Open 671: Greater Idea - OVER

[alban]

First, since there are so many players from the earlier game: I

never ever lied

about the Avatar issue in 657. Yes, I was scum there. And I doled out a lot of shit. However, explanation given in the context of Spade's Avatar was absolutely the truth. You only have my word for it, except a scarce mention in the scum PT (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p8533449). Read the last couple of lines in

'Who submits the kill'

para.

Page 7 apparent backpedaling: There was none. I didn't suspect Grey till later. But on page 7, I didn't suspect him. I was in fact thinking of him as a town trying to bait scum in his initial post. I asked Grey to explain what was he trying to achieve. Multiple times. I was curious to understand how he was trying to bait the scum. I asked him

4 times

on page 7 alone. Ref. 152, 159, 164 and 167.

He wouldn't reply.

Rather he was replying to me all the time, without any reference to what I was asking. So to pressurise, I voted for him in 167. Pat came the reply from him in 169. Not that he answered my question, but at least he referred to it. That's all that pressure vote was gonna achieve[/color][/b], I realised that, and I removed it in 174.

I asked Grey two questions:

1. What was the motivation in claiming?:

This translates into understanding how was he hoping to trap the scum?

2. Why aren't you questioning Bang?:

Assuming that the motivation was to trap a scum (no Kop, it

wasn't a joke

. I thought that too, but Grey himself said much later that that post was meant to see who bites the bait), and you got someone (in Bang) who did, why are you letting him off easily? I have seen it happening so many times that the original thoughts and motivations of players get lost in the deluge of posts. Should I have worded it differently? Maybe. Maybe I should have asked him politely, and not asked him 'why' coz that questions his motivation. And I didn't doubt his motivation anyway (at least not then). What I meant was, time to deliver what you indirectly promised in the first post.

Grey's melodrama

in 169 which continued thereafter in multiple posts, was totally unnecessary.

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay that makes sense

[Vaxkiller]

Okay so the main reason I decided to hop in here was to play a Greater Idea game in forum style, since I have experience with this setup in chat mafia.
One thing I'd like to mention is

scummy discards

. There are two forms: initial and claimed. Initial scummy discards are when someone discards a very powerful role. It suggests they found a better (usually scum) role. Claimed ones are where the claimed role is less fun to play then the discard, suggesting the claim is fake.
Also, I'm not sure if this is the case, but

usually

roles are not repeated. So the Parrot that is discarded in the OP cannot be held by another player.

Thanks for this tip. Quite interesting and logical!!

^Trying to figure out his new fake claim^

stump is mostly vanilla, so I can see it being discarded

It would only be weird if anyone one who is exceptional verbose, opinionated, or a troll discarded it.

Vax - explain your unvote in the post I quoted.

Thanks for providing the number of whatever post I missed.

Post 315?
I rode that train of suspicion but got off at the station of doubt.

RC-NM scumbuds pretending to hate each other.
Grey-GE scumbuds pretending to love each other.

I'm actually a Mason Doctor, and my partner is Gamma Emerald.

I'm a self targeting cop. I'll let you guys know the results tomorrow.

@Alban
Do you not suspect Grey anymore?

@kop
Are you going to vote your scum reads or just talk about them?

[RadiantCowbells]

Charloux's scum but I'm not doing jack while there's this many votes on me.

[Charloux]

Me being scum in real life doesn't make me scum in the game. And you have 3 votes on you right now. 2 If you count those you don't think are scum.

[-Grey-]

Okay that makes sense

No it doesn't.

He was bitching at me for not pressuring a slot that hadn't even posted since my vote on them.

He's full of shit.

[alban]

Charloux's scum but I'm not doing jack while there's this many votes on me.

Agree with you about Charl, but dont agree with you about NM.

[alban]

Vax, the thought is more or less the same as you. I don't trust his claim and find gamma culpable by association.

[alban]

Okay that makes sense

No it doesn't.

He was bitching at me for not pressuring a slot that hadn't even posted since my vote on them.

He's full of shit.

So it's logic vs the lack of it. Ignorant and arrogant. Lethal combination.

[davesaz]

Charloux's scum

Because?

[Aristodog]

VC 1.5

RadiantCowbells

(4): Not_Mafia 13, bangthemafia 15, Gamma Emerald 293, RadiantCowbells 340

-Grey-

(2): Davesaz 102, alban 213

bangthemafia

(1): -Grey- 236

Kop

(1): Vaxkiller 268

Not Voting

(4): Charloux, Kop, Secret Agent Jin, Spade_Ace 365

With 12 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch

The day will end on February 5th, 2017 at 12 AM EST.
(expired on 2017-02-04 22:00:00)

Mod Notes:

Still seeking a Secret Agent Jin replacement.

[bangthemafia]

Null to scum lean- Culted, RC

Explain these, please.

Actually nothing much. My scum reads hav been quite bad in this game. Culted, because of lurking largely and the role he discarded. But Gamma replacement in the slot seems townie. But then there is also this buddying between you and him, my 2 strong townreads.

Snipped. Referenced ongoing games. Do not do this again. ~T

So I really dont know. I m not giving clean chit to you/GE either.

RC from beginning has behaved erratically. Using a V/LA as excuse to vote, tunnelling on NM are few reasons. But I keep second guessing myself that why would a scum!RC make himself so conspicupus by tunnelling on NM.

So I really dont know if my direction is right.

Town is shit.

VOTE: RC

Lynch NM tomorrow. bye.

I doubt town!RC would vote herself so early in the game and that too with just 3 previous votes.
So. Bye

VOTE: RC

Agree with Alban. This was opportunistic and uncharacteristic of you. A town!you hav always tried to give "frustrated or fixated citizens" benifit of doubt in such scenarios. You just made me highly suspicious of u. Plus the whole melodrama of wildcard. More than role claim, your theatrics of hey can you guess, my first part... Etc etc. You just climbed up in my scum list

RC is at L-3

How come you didnt comment on the selfvote?

Coz it was very obvious. Vote count was not.

[bangthemafia]

I am surprised you find her self-vote suspicious enough to vote for her when town!you has done it

so many times

out of frustration in our games. Bang can confirm a frustrated town!Spade's predisposition to self-vote.

Who knows what affiliation she is, but I find it suspicious that you won't give her that leeway and acknowledge that a town can be driven to self-vote.

You must he confusing me with someone else. I have never selfvoted ever. And if bang confirms that, he is scum along with you.

This is just not you! As town you hav always found reasons and possibilities that a certain behaviour from a player could be from a misguided townie mindset rather than scum one. Whereas here I see you jumping to "you are scum" comclusion very fast.

Now, sorry if you feel that my memory is bad, but I do remember you self voting and then removing it after persuasion. Just that I m not too sure whether it was as town or as scum.

Apart from this, you have many times also followed the stance that "ok, i m ready to be lynched. Coz if so many people suspect me, the town will be fixated on me next day too. So lynch me and move on"

*i have never selfvoted ever as TOWN

I doubt thst. But there is anothet side to it. U didnt know what i was going to say and still you are so sure in stating something which could hav been negated by me. So i will take that on face value.

But ur opportunistic voting to RC, unvoting it on countering, and jumping to scum reading people (RC, me, alban) worry me!

UNVOTE:

Do you think he has done anything scummy so far in the game?

[Kop]

Null to scum lean- Culted, RC

Explain these, please.

Actually nothing much. My scum reads hav been quite bad in this game. Culted, because of lurking largely and the role he discarded. But Gamma replacement in the slot seems townie. But then there is also this buddying between you and him, my 2 strong townreads.

Snipped. Referenced ongoing games. Do not do this again. ~T

So I really dont know. I m not giving clean chit to you/GE either.

RC from beginning has behaved erratically. Using a V/LA as excuse to vote, tunnelling on NM are few reasons. But I keep second guessing myself that why would a scum!RC make himself so conspicupus by tunnelling on NM.

So I really dont know if my direction is right.

You can't throw that comment around right now about your scum reads being bad in this game. Everybody will have bad scum reads since the games only a few days old, and only 340 odd posts made, no reads are going to be a dead cert, and nobody is going to have a high percentage rate of having correct scum reads. The only way you are going to know if your scum reads are entirely terrible is the fact when you have a full phase done with, bodies flipped, for you to then know for sure whether they are actually good reads, or bad reads.

I think this is you flimsying because you were asked to explain those reads and you couldn't back it up with any given facts, or any posts that pinged for you to have that read. Any reads you have can be backed up, or at least explained with a post that gave you that feeling. Especially scum reads.

VOTE: Bangthemafia

[Vaxkiller]

Charloux's scum but I'm not doing jack while there's this many votes on me.

You are not going to help us because your mad? Cmon.

[Vaxkiller]

Charloux's scum but I'm not doing jack while there's this many votes on me.

Agree with you about Charl, but dont agree with you about NM.

Agree why?

Also, associations day 1?

[Aristodog]

Lowell replaces Secret Agent Jin effective immediately. Thank you so much!

[Spade_Ace]

2. Why aren't you questioning Bang?:

Assuming that the motivation was to trap a scum (no Kop, it

wasn't a joke

. I thought that too, but Grey himself said much later that that post was meant to see who bites the bait), and you got someone (in Bang) who did, why are you letting him off easily? I have seen it happening so many times that the original thoughts and motivations of players get lost in the deluge of posts. Should I have worded it differently? Maybe. Maybe I should have asked him politely, and not asked him 'why' coz that questions his motivation. And I didn't doubt his motivation anyway (at least not then). What I meant was, time to deliver what you indirectly promised in the first post.

You seem to not get what grey is trying to say. He voted for bang in 18. Bang didn't join the game again until 228.

If a player isn't responding the only thing you can do is ask other people to join the wagon which he was did in 40 and 41. Then the wildcard stuff happened. He kept indirectly pushing bang even in 44 and 52. He didnt change his vote until 121.

So yes your question on why he wasn't questioning Bang

doesn't make sense

.

[Spade_Ace]

I am surprised you find her self-vote suspicious enough to vote for her when town!you has done it

so many times

out of frustration in our games. Bang can confirm a frustrated town!Spade's predisposition to self-vote.

Who knows what affiliation she is, but I find it suspicious that you won't give her that leeway and acknowledge that a town can be driven to self-vote.

You must he confusing me with someone else. I have never selfvoted ever. And if bang confirms that, he is scum along with you.

This is just not you! As town you hav always found reasons and possibilities that a certain behaviour from a player could be from a misguided townie mindset rather than scum one. Whereas here I see you jumping to "you are scum" comclusion very fast.

Now, sorry if you feel that my memory is bad, but I do remember you self voting and then removing it after persuasion. Just that I m not too sure whether it was as town or as scum.

Apart from this, you have many times also followed the stance that "ok, i m ready to be lynched. Coz if so many people suspect me, the town will be fixated on me next day too. So lynch me and move on"

*i have never selfvoted ever as TOWN

I doubt thst. But there is anothet side to it. U didnt know what i was going to say and still you are so sure in stating something which could hav been negated by me. So i will take that on face value.

But ur opportunistic voting to RC, unvoting it on countering, and jumping to scum reading people (RC, me, alban) worry me!

UNVOTE:

Do you think he has done anything scummy so far in the game?

ohhh puhleeezzz stop with the 'what a Town!spade would have done' argument. I fell for it once. Not planning to do that again. Come up with something better. And yes your memory is bad cos I have never selfvoted as Town.

Bang and Alban are both scum.

[Spade_Ace]

Motherfucker, I'll votepark you out of spite of you don't shut the fuck up.

Is this how they vent anger in where to come from?
Stop swearing. I am serious.
VOTE: Grey

So in your little worldview, scum tries to win by being assholes and pissing people off, right?

Voting me for any other excuse than thinking I am scum is basically admitting to playing to a scum wincon, so I'm sure you'll find some way to call me scum because I used a dirty word.

Let's hear it.

You have already heard it in 199 and 212. Your melodrama (considered effort and improvement by some) rings fake.
Much before I took objection to your language.

Thanks for conveniently leaving out the links.

I thought so too, but now I think he is pretending.

Oooooooooohhh game set match. He is correct, Grey.
I dunno why but i think the interaction between you two is totally staged.

So ur whole argument for why grey is scum is melodrama and acting?

[Spade_Ace]

VOTE: Aban
wish i could vote Bang as well.

[bangthemafia]

The claim on page 1, it's a joke and should be taken as that. I don't think anyone in a town frame of mind, especially with partners would out themselves in that manner. Unless it was pre-organized before hand, which I very highly doubt anyone would do. Even if that role exist (I was unaware of such a role) it has to be taken not gospel.

Anyone jumping on that claim and berating it, is more likely to come from scum rather than town, as scum always look for a easy route to push without hindering much resistance. Especially when the 2 names mentioned in that claim, didn't back it up, gives scum more impetus to push further into it.

#15 Bang jumped straight onto it, but would not put a hand to vote it, especially with the mentality he demonstrated in that particular post. He was stancing that he was ready to go at it, but jumped onto RC.

Second in the list to lynch would be Alban, I find it scummy that he put one foot forward then retreated softly because the case wasn't what he thought he could have presented.

I hav explained the reason for my questioning Grey but voting RC. And its there in your own post in 1st 2 paragraphs and still you don't seem to get it. I was startled by Grey's boistrous claim, but cud not rule out a town!Grey doing that. So voted for whstever little I had.

I do not think albam is a scum. He is a much more careful and makes a great scum than to "back pedal" so obviously.

[bangthemafia]

mmmm Alban feels like he's backpedaling on page 7

Sorry but can you explain what is backpedalling?

Trying to take back what you said. Remember how alban kept making new excuses for why he mentioned Spade's avatar in Open 657?

That

is backpedaling.

All caught up.
Questions/FOSes (questions because some of these feel like misunderstandings)
RC - Why are you determined to lynch Not Mafia?
alban - can you explain your thought process on page 7?
bang - what were you trying to accomplish with your Grey interaction?
Vax - explain your unvote in the post I quoted.

I didnt have any thought out motive that I wanted to accomplish. I am just not used to roleclaims in people's first posts on the 1st page. And this guy comes out with not only his own but 2 others' roleclaims. SO my intuitive reaction was WTF!

tbh It feels scummy, since you aren't really being proactive, just commenting on things.

I know it might. Still I said so because I dont have any other explanation ready made and cooked up my sleeve like a scum. I am just trying to guage a whole lot of people here, most of whom are not outing any tells. Kop, you, Spade and Alban shud know that as scum I hav lot of reasons ready for every statement of mine. I am a townie this game. Your problem if you guys dont wanna believe.

[bangthemafia]

Okay so the main reason I decided to hop in here was to play a Greater Idea game in forum style, since I have experience with this setup in chat mafia.
One thing I'd like to mention is

scummy discards

. There are two forms: initial and claimed. Initial scummy discards are when someone discards a very powerful role. It suggests they found a better (usually scum) role. Claimed ones are where the claimed role is less fun to play then the discard, suggesting the claim is fake.
Also, I'm not sure if this is the case, but

usually

roles are not repeated. So the Parrot that is discarded in the OP cannot be held by another player.

Thanks for this tip. Quite interesting and logical!!

^Trying to figure out his new fake claim^

Really? And announcing it from rooftop when I didnt have to! You are such a genious!!!

Charloux's scum but I'm not doing jack while there's this many votes on me.

If you are town, you must! I hav been scum!partner with Charl in #657 and I have this strange feeling that his posts are similar to that game. So who knows, maybe I will buy your arguement

[bangthemafia]

Null to scum lean- Culted, RC

Explain these, please.

Actually nothing much. My scum reads hav been quite bad in this game. Culted, because of lurking largely and the role he discarded. But Gamma replacement in the slot seems townie. But then there is also this buddying between you and him, my 2 strong townreads.

Snipped. Referenced ongoing games. Do not do this again. ~T

So I really dont know. I m not giving clean chit to you/GE either.

RC from beginning has behaved erratically. Using a V/LA as excuse to vote, tunnelling on NM are few reasons. But I keep second guessing myself that why would a scum!RC make himself so conspicupus by tunnelling on NM.

So I really dont know if my direction is right.

You can't throw that comment around right now about your scum reads being bad in this game. Everybody will have bad scum reads since the games only a few days old, and only 340 odd posts made, no reads are going to be a dead cert, and nobody is going to have a high percentage rate of having correct scum reads. The only way you are going to know if your scum reads are entirely terrible is the fact when you have a full phase done with, bodies flipped, for you to then know for sure whether they are actually good reads, or bad reads.

I think this is you flimsying because you were asked to explain those reads and you couldn't back it up with any given facts, or any posts that pinged for you to have that read. Any reads you have can be backed up, or at least explained with a post that gave you that feeling. Especially scum reads.

VOTE: Bangthemafia

Lovely!

Read my #396,397. As scum I never let my doubts and hesitations come out so openly. I would push a wagon of RC, which is completely viable right now and not express my doubts about it. Like I am slowly getting more and more suspicious of Spade who has not even a single vote on him.