~laundry~ FIN

[drealmerz7]

cud do. spyrx trbute

[Toogeloo]

Unvote;
Vote: Firebringer

My can lynch list is fine with this. Whatever will get momentum at this point because, seriously, jack all has been accomplished all day.

[Zachstralkita]

KAIN TEPES

I deadass had this in the preview box then decided to leave

[Firebringer]

Unvote;
Vote: Firebringer

My can lynch list is fine with this. Whatever will get momentum at this point because, seriously, jack all has been accomplished all day.

okay as one of the few people I thought was following the game, you realize i claimed power role, right?

[Firebringer]

actually that makes me question why i thought toogeloo was following, he is usually always in catch up mode.

[Toogeloo]

Unvote;
Vote: Firebringer

My can lynch list is fine with this. Whatever will get momentum at this point because, seriously, jack all has been accomplished all day.

okay as one of the few people I thought was following the game, you realize i claimed power role, right?

Well, if you are going to soft claim with half the votes needed to be lynched, just save us the trouble and full claim so we can move on or call you liarz.

[Firebringer]

Well, if you are going to soft claim with half the votes needed to be lynched, just save us the trouble and full claim so we can move on or call you liarz.

dude, you don't even claim to scum read me how can you fucking possibly take this stance.

"I am going to lynch a pr claim that i don't scum read because Lets make stuff happen"

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know, man.
I could write for a long time about things that probably don't matter to people here/matter anymore but that'd be a waste of my time.

This isn't some form of betrayal.
Yes, perhaps I was foolish to think I could just pick things up where I left off with people after being gone for years and more time wearing a black tie than I wanted to.
But if I were to speak honestly from the heart we'd be so far off-track with this game.

So no.
I'll mortify the heart and do what I can for you all.
I'll stay here, as long as you let me.

I didn't mean anything out of game.
I meant right here, right now, that you drew scum and that you were a bad man and you were supposed to draw town for our mighty mighty reunion after so long.

I have nothing against you as a person; I'm not sure why our reunion is off to a rocky start if you are town (describing your perspective on me a little more thoroughly is a good place to start), but my words were not referencing us reconnecting to people at all and instead you connecting with the game per your alignment.

[Zachstralkita]

talk to him firebringer

[Firebringer]

why do u sr me again?

[Firebringer]

I dunno, your primary use of lowercase letters this game has given me the wrong vibe.

I can attach an ambiguous motive to your early play.

ohhhh right

[Nachomamma8]

See this is just opinions.
I have my reads, which are my opinions.
You might think I'm bullshitting but that doesn't change what I think.

Tammy might be all happy to walk into the game but I was like whoa hang on there's something off here.
Doesn't mean she's not happy.

Like, you can call my reads wrong. That's ok.
But don't sit here and undermine everything I'm doing.

Since when is calling your posting fake undermining everything that you're doing? I also don't understand where I crossed a line here/what line I crossed; are you saying that me saying that your reads were poetry was crossing a line?

The problem with you're "hey there's something off here" is that I don't know where it originated from - why wouldn't you expect Tammy to be happy? Is how you approach your read on Tammy really directly linked to her happiness levels?

I didn't like your reads because there wasn't any heart in them. If you think that I'm selling you short, don't tell me that I'm insulting - put me on the correct path.

Things like "drealmer is as drealmer does but imma be a mason" - at best, you're referring to something that happened outside of this game that gives you an edge in reading him that you aren't explaining because...? There's "We're always waiting for the next season. The producers don't want any big moves this early. Also, you remind me of AGM a bit with the (apparently) you have a preference for MAFIA and there's less engagement here. But hey, we're talking atnd its D1 so maybe we'll stick it to the producers this one eh?" - I don't know what the TV references are about; what I do know is that your read on Maria seems to boil down to "she likes scum and isn't engaged so town!", which is again something that I think is objectively weak. And I could go on and on but I don't think it's necessary; I have no idea how "Andrius I think you're approach is fake" got warped into something other than a criticism of play, but that's all it is. There's no attack on you as a person. I don't know how the wires got crossed badly enough where my approach doesn't end in you talking more about your reads and that bothers me.

[Andrius]

No, I can play 'down to business' ball with you.
Mortify the heart.

I had no qualms. I missed you, and then you showed up and joined in the small gathering of (now dispersed) people who were basically like andrius is posting poetry/beneath his caliber of player so it was like, well what do we do here. There was ZERO engaging on reads. Like, if you came in here all Nacholove being "andy, I literally agree with zero of your reads. lets talk and sort this out." we'd be having a different conversation. But that's not what happened.

Anywho. Feet forward.

There's a little feeling that you're scum because you engaged me and I'm still not a townread of yours and yet you're doing nothing about it. Scum-Andrius should be an easy lynch for you to push almost LITERALLY by saying 'ANDRIUS IS SCUM, I AM NACHOMAMMA, WE READ EACH OTHER THIS WELL'. Or at least, we did.

Like, you're literally calling me scum here.
Come at me.
Where's your vote?
Where's the call to arms?
I don't really think you think I'm scum.
Because if you're town and you think I'm scum this day ends with me dead. Because we aren't going to give each other free passes just for old times' sake.
I kind of think you're scum because you're scumreading me and you're after garryoat. Which is cool. Bus away. I'm more than willing to lynch him because he's scum and/or as a policy lynch. We can call it whatever you like. He's scum and needs death.

[Andrius]

Ninjas.
Catching up.

[Fro99er]

Andy can you remind me why you're voting Nos?

[Nachomamma8]

Look I'm not expecting you to be all GIVE THIS MAN PROFESSOR MAFIA.
I play in my own mixture of reads with a few specific tells I've picked up from being here long enough.

I don't know how to engage with you here because you're shutting down this entire conversation with NO ITS ALL BULLSHIT YOUR READS ARE POETRY.

Do you disagree with my reads? Or is it how I am presenting them? Do you think Pine is scum? Do you think Fro99er is scum? Do you think Maria is scum? Do you think Sly is scum?
Or are you just taking issue with my tone or presentation or something?

Because just going LOL POETRY is bull.

You play with a mixture of reads and specific tells; you play with a thought process that has depth beyond a kiddie pool, and you've known me long enough to know that I don't demand perfection behind every read. I find it funny that you don't know how to defend yourself from someone telling you that your reads are bullshit; if I call you shallow, then you show me depth.

No, I'm not taking issue with the accuracy of your reads; I very obviously have not been even kind of engaged in this current game. I am taking issue with your reasoning. When I read your readslist and you are explaining itself and I physically recoil from your reasoning, that's a problem. If I lost meaning with my attempt to be light then I'm sorry but my entire issue is that your reads seem fake because that's not how I've known you to read people. That's not how I've known most to read people.

[Nachomamma8]

I know better than to assume people don't change after years.
I would be lying if I said I hadn't.

Its like, I pretend that I can just pick up relationships after awhile with no change because certain people don't care about what happens in the rainy days, so to speak.
My words to you are an odd mixture of HI LETS PICK THIS UP AGAIN and OK WELL MAYBE YOU DONT or well maybe we just never had a strong relationship to begin with.
I would say more but the best example of this is somewhat on-going so I can't.

I mean.
You're here now, interacting with me.
So I guess I got what I wanted, eh?

My gut on you is usually right.
That newbie, both Xeno games we townread each other instantly but then allowed ourselves to doubt in the long-term, twice leading to my lynch in order to guarantee the win.
Its the paranoia that usually kills us. Well, me. You outlived me every time.

Maybe I should stop bringing in myself from outside the game into the game.
Maybe I should just wear the mask.

So the reasoning you disliked my opening and thought I was falling emotionally flat was... gut?

I'm not telling you to wear a mask. I'm not telling you not to be yourself. I'm asking you to explain where exactly this approach to me is coming from; maybe it's been too long and I've forgotten and maybe I'm the one being silly but I don't understand how you're getting to "Nacho is emotionally flat" when I straight up haven't been around and the few posts that I have made have depended more on emotion than anything else. I don't understand where the "you know I can read you bit" is coming from period - were you trying to throw scum!Nacho off his game? Was it just a way of saying hello that I misunderstood?

I'm asking you to open up so I understand what you are saying and instead I'm just getting a big ol' wall of lead and I'll acknowledge a good part of this awkward dance is due to time but you have to cut me a bit of slack and stop assuming that I'm approaching this as a criticism of you as a person - our relationship as people is considerably less complicated than our relationship as players (as people I've been to dark places too and I am not a friend that needs maintenance; once we have a connection it's there when you need it). As players, our approach to each other is an approach wrought with a lot of paranoia - I remember good reads yes but I remember crippling paranoia as well and so going "Nacho - you are not a human - I can read you" stood out as not how I expected you to approach me if you were scumreading me. I hoped you would explain your approach, say "oh it was just me trying to intimidate you" or "I have a different approach now"; I'm not trying to shut you out.

[Andrius]

Well, everything runs off of reads, yeah?
You called my reads poetry.
I base everything off my reads.
So yeah, I took it as a full-frontal attack.

I also don't understand where I crossed a line here/what line I crossed; are you saying that me saying that your reads were poetry was crossing a line?

Again, if you were like "your reads are terrible how can you be TR/SRing

• when [reasons]. But you don't. You swing at everything in a dismissive way of ITS ALL POETRY. No, this is how I do things.
  If I displayed my reads as FRATRES/ADVERSARII or GREEN/ORANGE or LOYAL TO THE OLDE FOOD GODS/WOLVES would that be too poetic for you?
  
  How can we talk about this if you're just dismissing it all as poetry? There's no conversation on reads, there's no sorting out people, there's just YOURE SCUM BECAUSE POETRY.
  Or something.
  

  The problem with you're "hey there's something off here" is that I don't know where it originated from - why wouldn't you expect Tammy to be happy? Is how you approach your read on Tammy really directly linked to her happiness levels?

  I perceived her tone to be off. Bit hesitant, bit happy, sure, but something was off and I'm not going to sit here and say happiness is faked or something but idk it was how I read it and that and the moist comments were like "oh weak entry here this all is nothing town-postive here tammy isn't an instant town read mayday'.
  

  I didn't like your reads because there wasn't any heart in them. If you think that I'm selling you short, don't tell me that I'm insulting - put me on the correct path.

  NO HEART
  NO HEART?
  
  Ok.
  If I, instead, put SlySly and Pine as town because MY HEART SAYS SO is that any less poetic?
  

  Things like "drealmer is as drealmer does but imma be a mason" - at best, you're referring to something that happened outside of this game that gives you an edge in reading him that you aren't explaining because...?

  Because I can't explain it in words.
  He is erratic. He has different meta tells and behavioral norms for this game from another site.
  I literally claimed that he sent me a message overnight in STRAHD and he scumread me for outing role information.
  You saw him flip on SAD earlier.
  Like, in a way its basically an ORANGE/BLUE when we see BLACK/WHITE in that he has different behavioral norms governing how he treats play.
  

  There's "We're always waiting for the next season. The producers don't want any big moves this early. Also, you remind me of AGM a bit with the (apparently) you have a preference for MAFIA and there's less engagement here. But hey, we're talking atnd its D1 so maybe we'll stick it to the producers this one eh?" - I don't know what the TV references are about; what I do know is that your read on Maria seems to boil down to "she likes scum and isn't engaged so town!", which is again something that I think is objectively weak.

  Some of this is thinly-veiled flirting or at least references to
  other things
  .
  I won't pretend to know her as well as people like you or d3x or Varsoon or, really, most of the people from our XENO game series. Or even ABR for that matter.
  This is basically on par with ABR replacing out for me. Behavior. I see ABR replace out, I know he's scum and lynch it with fire.
  There was a time when people did that with me.
  
  Objectively weak? Sure.
  Do I care? No.
  This is how I'm deriving my reads at the moment.
  

  I have no idea how "Andrius I think you're approach is fake" got warped into something other than a criticism of play

  Is there an outcome where you think someone faking reads is town?
  Because I hear FAKING READS and I think SCUM.
  

  There's no attack on you as a person. I don't know how the wires got crossed badly enough where my approach doesn't end in you talking more about your reads and that bothers me.

  I don't see it as a personal attack.
  I just see it as you're attacking my method which just leaves me at a NOW WHAT juncture.
  

  I am taking issue with your reasoning. When I read your readslist and you are explaining itself and I physically recoil from your reasoning, that's a problem. If I lost meaning with my attempt to be light then I'm sorry but my entire issue is that your reads seem fake because that's not how I've known you to read people. That's not how I've known most to read people.

  Ok so we're clearly not getting anywhere with this current line so yeah, I'll go freaking reread everything and HEART/BRAIN it later when I'm in the mood and drop ANOTHER nasty wall that most people won't read.
  
  So give me time away enough to clear my head and the heart and I'll hit this.
  

  I'm asking you to open up so I understand what you are saying and instead I'm just getting a big ol' wall of lead and I'll acknowledge a good part of this awkward dance is due to time but you have to cut me a bit of slack and stop assuming that I'm approaching this as a criticism of you as a person - our relationship as people is considerably less complicated than our relationship as players (as people I've been to dark places too and I am not a friend that needs maintenance; once we have a connection it's there when you need it). As players, our approach to each other is an approach wrought with a lot of paranoia - I remember good reads yes but I remember crippling paranoia as well and so going "Nacho - you are not a human - I can read you" stood out as not how I expected you to approach me if you were scumreading me. I hoped you would explain your approach, say "oh it was just me trying to intimidate you" or "I have a different approach now"; I'm not trying to shut you out.

  Yeah.
  Give me a bit.
  I'll reconnect the wires or die in a fire.
  Sorry. We'll get this right.

[Andrius]

I'm just going to stop posting now since we seem to be missing each other in that we're both reading/responding 600 pages apart.
Will reconnect with this another time. Maybe later tonight depending.
Sorry, brother.

[Nachomamma8]

I can respond in real time but my goal right now is to respond to everything that you wrote and so that's what I'm doing until you tell me otherwise.

[Andrius]

I will wait.
You read what you need to and we can words later.
Ill be here all night.

[Andrius]

I know the fragility of life.
If this is our last dance than I'm willing to step back and pull a reread so we get this right.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't mean conversation in general. But the whole YOUR READS ARE POETRY or THIS IS BENEATH YOU doesn't open conversation about it. You basically leave room for one to go "nope". This exchange didn't start with some "can you explain your reads? because I don't get lots of reasoning from you that I can appreciate. Can you use layman's words?" Both of you went straight to the "ITS ALL TERRIBLE/SHIT/POETRY/TALKING TO TOOGELOOS EIGHTH GRADE SPANISH TEACHER" which is useless for me because I can't help you because clearly you don't want to be helped. You didn't ask for reads or a discussion, you simply went this is terrible and below my perception of where your play should be.

When I scumread or I start to scumread someone, sometimes I feel like dropping the hammer. Sometimes I feel like being playful. The idea that I'm not opening conversation because I am not approaching it in a single narrow way is a shallow one, is a wrong one, is something that you know consciously or subconsciously is not how this works. When you talked about me initially you didn't go "hey Nacho can I see where your head is at?" you went "Nacho you are emotionally flat and scum", and that's how interactions need to happen - you shouldn't be worried about trying to foster a conversation because the only thing it takes for the conversation to start is "I think you are scum". You don't need to watch your tone around me or be worried you're saying the wrong thing to me because we will work through it just fine eventually and I think the assertion that I need to be conciliatory to you instead of playful when I feel like being playful is wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

How did you imagine this conversation going down?
a) YEAH TAMMY IM SORRY LYNCH ME FOR NOT PLAYING UP TO YOUR EXPECTATIONS
b) Ignore you entirely.
c) Some form of "NO, AND"

Because, from my angle, it looks like you don't really care about what I'm saying and more of you zoomed in on not liking how I'm playing this.

And since this is woven in with a response to me:

It wouldn't be at all unreasonable for you to go into more depth on your reads or explain why you're reading them the way you are. The Maria context that you gave in a recent response - helpful. If you don't have anything more to say, then whoops my assumptions were wrong we will work through them.

I don't know where you got that either of us "didn't care what you were saying" - sure, I adopted an aggressive approach but that doesn't mean that I'm not listening; even in Perpetual MyLo where both ffery and I were scumreading both heads of the hydra you were in with Mollie we

still

listened - that's the depth of respect I have for you as a player so all of this "they're ignoring me!" is wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

Well if you want anyone to take this Andrius wagon of your seriously you might want to get in here sooner than later.
And yes I am totally ok with you voting me as long as you're here posting and being readable and making reads and stuff because if Tammy doesn't have a read on you something's wrong or something.
I would gladly accept a daykill to the face if it meant we got a decent post from you every other day or something.

My intention isn't for an Andrius wagon. My intention is to understand where Andrius is coming from.
As for my presence in games, unfortunately new schedule is kicking my ass and that has led to some fucking up, especially in places where it feels I have to work instead of play. It's possible the weekend brings a new Nacho. It's possible the weekend doesn't.