Mini 523 - Game Over!

[Nudude]

Vote Count

Dark_Lady_Shaiann (3)

- Disciple Slayer, Thanatos, charter
Thanatos (3) - Gorgon, VampyreLord, Infinitive
Infinitive (2) - Dark_Lady_Shaiann, Nudude

Not Voting (1) - liamcool

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Alright, cool cool. Realize though, that this situation is different from the one with DS. That FoS looked more reactive then anything. And I don't really see how townieness can 'build up'. In fact that seems like the biggest ploy to me. Having 'built up' townieness does not give you the ability to 'throw your votes' and not get noticed. It is possible though that he's simply trying to force us into doing something more proactive, but........ that post and vote was just way too suspicious.

The fact that Nudude waited to place his vote does make me raise an eyebrow though.

My vote was an afterthought, and only 6 minutes after my first post. I had a think about it and decided I wanted to put some pressure on Infinitive about it.

I would also like to apologise to anyone who I may have upset during my various investigations. I just want to let you know I'm not trying to attack anyone personally, I'm sure your all very nice people, and I'd probably buy you a drink if we met in real life. It's just I've conluded that for town to win we need information, conversation and explainations, and being agressive gets that. It seems to be working pretty well at getting information and generating discussion, so I will be continuing in that vein.

Please don't think I'm attacking you personally, it's just a strategy I'm employing to try and win the game.

Having said that, none of you are off the hook yet, but what I want to see first is a damn good reason from Infinitve for putting Thanatos at L1. Regardless of how scummy he may or may not be, there are still plenty of avenues to explore if people could be bothered doing more.

Once I get that, I'll figure out from there how to proceed.

[liamcool]

So....me voting Infinitive is defensive of myself......how?

Let's say theoretically that you and Thanatos are scum buddies. (not accusing you, just play along.) If one of your scum buddies dies, it puts you in a much weaker position the next day.

[Infinitive]

Sigh. Sorry for the L-1- last votecount I saw had you at 2, Than. I still think that, given the situation, you're the best choice.

And again, I'm sorry that I haven't been as available lately, but I'm still trying to chase down a solution for my car situation. Moreover, I'm only going to be less available as time goes on for the next couple of weeks, between the car and X-mas.

OTOH, I now know a guy that works the wholesale car auctions, so I'm hopeful that he can find me something at a great price.

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

So....me voting Infinitive is defensive of myself......how?

Let's say theoretically that you and Thanatos are scum buddies. (not accusing you, just play along.) If one of your scum buddies dies, it puts you in a much weaker position the next day.

Yeah.....but I probably wouldn't have to ask Thanatos that question..... Not to mention we were both mistakingly talking about different things, and that his vote is on me and it doesn't really look like it's moving anytime soon......

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

Sigh. Sorry for the L-1- last votecount I saw had you at 2, Than. I still think that, given the situation, you're the best choice.

And again, I'm sorry that I haven't been as available lately, but I'm still trying to chase down a solution for my car situation. Moreover, I'm only going to be less available as time goes on for the next couple of weeks, between the car and X-mas.

OTOH, I now know a guy that works the wholesale car auctions, so I'm hopeful that he can find me something at a great price.

So, give us an actual reason why you put Thanatos at L-1 and I might consider unvoting you.

[Thanatos]

Sigh. Sorry for the L-1- last votecount I saw had you at 2, Than. I still think that, given the situation, you're the best choice.

And again, I'm sorry that I haven't been as available lately, but I'm still trying to chase down a solution for my car situation. Moreover, I'm only going to be less available as time goes on for the next couple of weeks, between the car and X-mas.

OTOH, I now know a guy that works the wholesale car auctions, so I'm hopeful that he can find me something at a great price.

So, give us an actual reason why you put Thanatos at L-1 and I might consider unvoting you.

And make it one Besides "he lead us to vote DT."

[Infinitive]

As I mentioned in my last post, I thought I was putting him at L-2, not L-1. Please, read the explanations I've given before you ask for one.

As for why I voted at all? I thought I was pretty clear. I think that DLS and Thanatos are each about equally likely to be scummy (based on DLS' defense game and the long list of observations I've previously made about Thanatos). Given that, I think that the consequences of Thanatos being scum are greater than the consequences of DLS being scum. To put it more simply, in a bet with even odds, it is best to choose the path that leads to the best outcome if you're right, as laid against the consequences if you're wrong. If Than is sum and we lynch him, the benefit is obvious. If he is not scum and we lynch him, we lose someone who several people deem suspicious, and whose opinions are considered questionable at best. The cop is almost certainly going to die tonight, and as such it will be impossible to verify Thanatos' alignment if we do not lynch him. If he is scum and we do not lynch him, Thanatos has shown that he is a clever guy, and can manipulate discussions and arguments in a variety of ways. It he's not scum and he lives, we simply have another townie running around who several people are suspicious of.

DLS, OTOH, is an easier equation. If she's scum and we let her live, we know she'll continue to do what she has been doing: mostly nothing. If she's town and we let her live, she'll... continue to do little. If she's scum and we lynch, yay. If she's not scum and we lynch, admittedly, there's little loss.

Basically, in three of four categories, Than and DLS score the same to me- if they live, they won't be much help to the town anymore, regardless of their alignment, either because of their playstyle of because of suspicion re: their motives. If we lynch DLS, no matter her alignment, not much is going to change, because there are almost certainly more scum out there. If we lynch Than and he's town, we've lost someone who DOES investigate and we now have a wealth of information we know to be genuine from his passing. If we lynch Than and he's scum, we've eliminated someone who's a pretty good player.

Simply put, IMHO, the town stands to gain more from a Than lynch than a DLS lynch. Show me how this is not the case and I'll unvote.

[Thanatos]

As I mentioned in my last post, I thought I was putting him at L-2, not L-1. Please, read the explanations I've given before you ask for one.

As for why I voted at all? I thought I was pretty clear. I think that DLS and Thanatos are each about equally likely to be scummy (based on DLS' defense game and the long list of observations I've previously made about Thanatos). Given that, I think that the consequences of Thanatos being scum are greater than the consequences of DLS being scum. To put it more simply, in a bet with even odds, it is best to choose the path that leads to the best outcome if you're right, as laid against the consequences if you're wrong. If Than is sum and we lynch him, the benefit is obvious. If he is not scum and we lynch him, we lose someone who several people deem suspicious, and whose opinions are considered questionable at best. The cop is almost certainly going to die tonight, and as such it will be impossible to verify Thanatos' alignment if we do not lynch him. If he is scum and we do not lynch him, Thanatos has shown that he is a clever guy, and can manipulate discussions and arguments in a variety of ways. It he's not scum and he lives, we simply have another townie running around who several people are suspicious of.

DLS, OTOH, is an easier equation. If she's scum and we let her live, we know she'll continue to do what she has been doing: mostly nothing. If she's town and we let her live, she'll... continue to do little. If she's scum and we lynch, yay. If she's not scum and we lynch, admittedly, there's little loss.

Basically, in three of four categories, Than and DLS score the same to me- if they live, they won't be much help to the town anymore, regardless of their alignment, either because of their playstyle of because of suspicion re: their motives. If we lynch DLS, no matter her alignment, not much is going to change, because there are almost certainly more scum out there. If we lynch Than and he's town, we've lost someone who DOES investigate and we now have a wealth of information we know to be genuine from his passing. If we lynch Than and he's scum, we've eliminated someone who's a pretty good player.

Simply put, IMHO, the town stands to gain more from a Than lynch than a DLS lynch. Show me how this is not the case and I'll unvote.

You're voting me on the value of my opinions? You're simply saying the same thing you've been saying against me all along. I'm good at talking, I'm active, and I was wrong about the DT Lynch. All Day, you've been saying that, but what have you really said? Why am I dangerous? Why have my opinions been leading the town astray?

My opinions are questionable at best? Show me where. Stop focusing on a single mislynch, that 6 other people agreed was a good move.

And even if what you said is true, think of it like this...iI may be a more dangerous scum, but I'm a far more useful Townie than someone like DLS, who can only follow people and defend herself.

But you know what?

Unvote, Vote Infinitive

Here's what I'm seeing? Who would the scum, more than anyone else, want to vote off? Someone loud, active, and with opinions. Thinking is exactly what the scum does not want the town to do. DLS is good for the Scum, she's fairly easy to manipulate, because of her defensive style. You're lynching me because you think I'm a strong willed townie who is particularly vulnerable to lynching at the moment, and you even say so yourself. You just think that if you put enough mayo on it, the town will believe your chicken shit is chicken salad, but I don't buy it for a second.

I asked you to show a pattern that isn't dependent on DT being a townie, and you failed to do so. Show me these coincidences, these "chain of events" you keep seeing to find.


And frankly, with a vote count at the top of the page, I don't believe for a second you could have not noticed I was at three.

[liamcool]

So....me voting Infinitive is defensive of myself......how?

Let's say theoretically that you and Thanatos are scum buddies. (not accusing you, just play along.) If one of your scum buddies dies, it puts you in a much weaker position the next day.

Yeah.....but I probably wouldn't have to ask Thanatos that question..... Not to mention we were both mistakingly talking about different things, and that his vote is on me and it doesn't really look like it's moving anytime soon......

It's a way to distance yourselves from each other. If you're both taking different views on different things, it means you obviously don't talk at night...or do you? And even if his vote is on you, it may serve to further distance you two.

[liamcool]

As I mentioned in my last post, I thought I was putting him at L-2, not L-1. Please, read the explanations I've given before you ask for one.

Simply put, IMHO, the town stands to gain more from a Than lynch than a DLS lynch. Show me how this is not the case and I'll unvote.

1) That's not a very watertight alibi. You stated very obviously in 804

Okay. Well, given the length of day 2, I'm gonna throw my vote out.

Vote: Thanatos

Which means that you wanted to speed the game up...maybe lynch someone you know is a guaranteed townie?

2) That's totally false. If we lynch DLS, we kill someone who hasn't contributed that much, who has kinda been hanging around on the sidelines. If we kill Thanatos, we kill someone who, even if he is scum, does investigate and help a lot with the town.

I'm tempted to drop the hammer right now but I'll let you have a chance to defend yourself before I do.

[Thanatos]

He's not at L-1, Liam.

[liamcool]

He's not at L-1, Liam.

So he's not, I can't count. Thanks.

But if I vote, I do put him there, no?

[Thanatos]

He's not at L-1, Liam.

So he's not, I can't count. Thanks.

But if I vote, I do put him there, no?

I know. I'm not saying you should vote him. I was simply stating the fact. As it stands, I don't think he should be lynched yet, though I am tempted.

[Infinitive]

Whatever. Vote me if you want. It's not like I've got 2 months worth of solid scumhunting built up, and a reputation as a pretty neutral guy.

I'm town. There's nothing I can say to convince any of you of this, because I could just be lying. That being said, I've given my explanation, and it's the damn truth. If you want to bandwagon me, fine. Your call.

[Thanatos]

Whatever. Vote me if you want. It's not like I've got 2 months worth of solid scumhunting built up, and a reputation as a pretty neutral guy.

I'm town. There's nothing I can say to convince any of you of this, because I could just be lying. That being said, I've given my explanation, and it's the damn truth. If you want to bandwagon me, fine. Your call.

Being neutral doesn't prove anything. The fact is, you were pressured to justify your actions, and you failed to do so. There is one truly bad thing that I find scummy more than anything else, and you and a certain someone else do it. You ignore peices of information given to you. This post makes me all the more sure...

Actually, by your logic, you would be even more dangerous scum than me, since you have that scum hunting and neutrality to call on as defense. You're a very trustworthy figure, are you not?

[Nudude]

My concern is it is possible we have two townies here threating to lynch each other.......

And Gorgon and charter don't seem to have any thoughts on it.....interesting.

[Infinitive]

Well, Than, I don't defend myself, as a rule, because it's universally of more value to the town for someone to be out invesitgating another, rather than defending. Look at DLS' play record for an example of just that. Especially by now, my actions ought to speak for themselves.

As for my L-1 on you, I have explained it not once, but twice, and I'm going to do so

again

to make it three times. I thought you were at 2 votes (L-3) before I voted, and Numenorean had not yet posted the updated votecount. In fact,

Mod: Can we get confirmation that I voted before you updated the votecount, please? Thank you.

I run my voting off of the votecounts at the top of a given page for simplicity's sake, which means that i occasionally screw up. In fact, if you'll go back and look at day 1, I did the same thing in regards to Deepthought, and corrected myself when I realized what I'd done and nobody had zipped in to preempt my unvote, as happened in day 2.

Further, as I have now explained several different ways, I see the least potential risk and greatest potential reward to lynching you, as compared to DLS, Nudude, and DS. I'm not convinced of Nudude's scumminess enough to vote for him, and DS falls squarely into the same category as DLS- easily ignorable for now if he's scum, and of little informational value if he's town and we lynch him. My first concern as a town player is to find the scum that are capable of blending in well with the town and, most importantly of all, screwing up our inquiries. Neither DLS nor DS fit that pattern. Nudude does, but I'm not convinced of his scumminess. That really leaves me only one option, right?

As to value gained from lynching me? Sure, there's value. If you lynch me, you'll see that I was just a vanilla townie, and then you'll be able to use the posts I've dropped thusfar in the game for their objective informational value, to hopefully keep the town from dying during lynch or lose. It's the exact same value we'd get from lynching you if you're town. Not exactly ideal, but it beats a swift kick in the nuts.

And you've referred a couple of times to information that has supposedly been given to me; I've been looking around for it and can't find it. Mind pointing it out to me a bit more clearly.

Further, you note the fact that I list the same reasons that I always have in regards to you as reasons for my vote on you. So... you're saying that my consistency is a bad thing? I'm sorry, but I really do not understand that counterpoint. Frankly, if you look at my playing over the course of days 1 and 2, I show a pretty substantial history of taking a long time to make up my mind (I even explained as much on (I think) page 3) and then voting the person I think is scummiest (though I much prefer to vote whoever I'm certain of, but I'm not certain of anyone today). In short, I've done exactly what I said I would at every possible juncture, and you've cited this as a bad thing, Thanatos. Why do you think that?

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

unvote

[/code]

[Gorgon]

My concern is it is possible we have two townies here threating to lynch each other.......

And Gorgon and charter don't seem to have any thoughts on it.....interesting.

Well, I've been quite busy these past few days with Christmas preparations, etc. Also, I replaced into a large game that's up to about 50 pages now, so that takes some reading ... and therefore time.

Enough with the excuses though.

I find your comment quite interesting.

Firstly, you express concern that the two people with the greatest number of votes just might be townies. One thing that could explain this is that you actually know they're both townies, and thus want to look good tomorrow when one of them gets lynched ("See, told you I had concerns"). Couple this with the fact that you hopped from Thanatos over to Infinitive, and it looks even fishier. You were pushing pretty hard against Thanatos, and now suddenly you're concerned about the possibility of him being town, and also concerned about the person you're currently voting being town? Weird, to put it mildly.

Secondly, you passive-agressively cast suspicion on charter and I for our recent absence. Certainly, absence can be suspicious, but it can also have legitimate explanations. You, however, are directly implying that there are sinister motives at work here. Don't like it. Also, I note that you yourself actually haven't actually commented much on the Thanatos/Infinitive debate.

What you seem to be doing a lot of is to push other people to do post/investigate, which to me looks like your way of coming across as a concerned townie who's really, really concerned about the wellbeing of the town. And now you're pointing at absentees and trying to make them look suspicious. Interesting fact: I've drawn suspicion for this kind of behaviour as scum myself.

I also don't like your post 825, where you apologise to everyone for your 'attacks' and emphasise that there's nothing personal about them. I don't see anyone accusing you of being personal, or taking anything personally, before you made this post. I do, however, see that you were coming under some suspicion for your vote on Infinitive at that point.

You see, the accepted wisdom is that scum tend to be worried about not upsetting people. They want to stay in people's good books. They don't want to rock the boat too much. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, along with the fact that I myself have acted like that as scum, and drawn suspicion because of that. It's mostly a subconcious thing. You don't necessarily mean to act like this, but the worry that you might get under too heavy scrutiny if you antagonise someone leads to this behaviour. That apologetic post of yours is a very blatant example of this behaviour.

I'll need to take the time to review this game properly (Yes, I know that I keep promising to do this; hopefully I can live up to that someday - between Christmas and the New Year should be a quiet time for me), but right now you're pinging pretty strongly on my scumdar, having not registered much there up till now.

[Gorgon]

unvote

[/code]

Care to elaborate?

[Gorgon]

Seeing that I seem to have a little time right now, some more thoughts ...

2) That's totally false. If we lynch DLS, we kill someone who hasn't contributed that much, who has kinda been hanging around on the sidelines.

If we kill Thanatos, we kill someone who, even if he is scum, does investigate and help a lot with the town

.

So you're saying that scum could be helpful to the town? Doesn't make much sense to me. I know you have an innocent investigation on you by a guy who's most likely a real cop, but you sure look scummy to me.

OTOH, I am officially really suspicious of Thanatos at this point. Despite peoples' repeated observation of the fact, his playstyle radically reversed itself when we made the move to day 2. Further, he's really only responded to direct prodding from other people today, his voting aside. Simply put, this flip makes absolutely no sense to me, and makes me wonder what the heck is going on. As I've noted before, Than needed grilling for his part in the day 1 lynch, and the result of that has been him taking really no role in the investigation today.

Thanatos:

I'm sorry, but I've just seen too many coincidences with his name attached to believe that he's an innocent townie. Everyone he's pushed for seems to have turned out town (though I'll admit that I was in there as well), and he's been a vociferous advocate of just plain bad plans for the town.

These two seem to contradict each other. On the one hand, Infinitive is saying that he's suspicious of Thantos for being less proactive on D2 than he was D1, but on the other hand he's accusing him of misleading the town, which is the line he's towing right now.

Why exactly are you suspicious of Thanatos, Infinitive? I'd really love a detailed explanation of this.

[Thanatos]

I'm calling a Hiatus of my actions in this game, for about 48 hours or so, as I get the last remaining bits of work done (by bits, I mean 25 pages, give or take) so don't hold it against me if I can't defend myself, or attack the people who I am now fairly sure of in their scumminess until then.

[Dark_Lady_Shaiann]

unvote

[/code]

Care to elaborate?

He did what I asked, and he seems fairly sure about what he's talking about. He made his point, though it is debatable, and he backed it up pretty well.

[Nudude]

My concern is it is possible we have two townies here threating to lynch each other.......

And Gorgon and charter don't seem to have any thoughts on it.....interesting.

Well, I've been quite busy these past few days with Christmas preparations, etc. Also, I replaced into a large game that's up to about 50 pages now, so that takes some reading ... and therefore time.

Enough with the excuses though.

I find your comment quite interesting.

Firstly, you express concern that the two people with the greatest number of votes just might be townies. One thing that could explain this is that you actually know they're both townies, and thus want to look good tomorrow when one of them gets lynched ("See, told you I had concerns"). Couple this with the fact that you hopped from Thanatos over to Infinitive, and it looks even fishier. You were pushing pretty hard against Thanatos, and now suddenly you're concerned about the possibility of him being town, and also concerned about the person you're currently voting being town? Weird, to put it mildly.

Of course I'm concerned that they maybe townies. I don't know about you, but I don't want to lynch a townie. I'm also concerned that they may be scum, so that's why I've been pushing them both, to get some answers. Note that when Thanatos was at L1, I took my vote off because getting a lynch isn't my objective, it's getting information.

Aren't you concerned their townies, or shall we assume because your investigating Infinitive you've made up your mind about lynching him?

Secondly, you passive-agressively cast suspicion on charter and I for our recent absence. Certainly, absence can be suspicious, but it can also have legitimate explanations. You, however, are directly implying that there are sinister motives at work here. Don't like it. Also, I note that you yourself actually haven't actually commented much on the Thanatos/Infinitive debate.

I've commented on far more things in this thread than you have. I've voiced my thoughts on both Infinitive and Thanatos, whereas it took a post from me to motivate you into action. You attack me for pointing out you haven't commented, and then proceed comment on Infinitive. I can only assume that means you feel it is reasonable to have some thoughts on the issue. I also think it's reasonable to have some thoughts on the issue, so I found it interesting that you hadn't said anything. Not scummy, not condeming, just interesting, so why do you attack me for it if you agree?

Also, I agree there are many reasons someone could be absent. It could be they have to cram christmas shopping into a small time frame. However, it could be they are scum, happily sitting back watching a shitstorm unfold between a bunch of townies, and see no reasons to interfer. It's a reasonable conclusion, why don't you like it?

What you seem to be doing a lot of is to push other people to do post/investigate, which to me looks like your way of coming across as a concerned townie who's really, really concerned about the wellbeing of the town. And now you're pointing at absentees and trying to make them look suspicious. Interesting fact: I've drawn suspicion for this kind of behaviour as scum myself.

Lurking IS suspicious, everyone knows that. Not neccesarily damning, but you have to be careful someone isn't slipping under the radar. If people don't post/investigate, there's no information to go off or to formulate opinions. On top of that, I've not just been saying it, I've been doing it, and as a result have generated quite alot of discusson today.

What your saying is it's scummy to call lurkers suspicious. Are you saying that we shouldn't be suspicious lurkers?

I also don't like your post 825, where you apologise to everyone for your 'attacks' and emphasise that there's nothing personal about them. I don't see anyone accusing you of being personal, or taking anything personally, before you made this post. I do, however, see that you were coming under some suspicion for your vote on Infinitive at that point.

You see, the accepted wisdom is that scum tend to be worried about not upsetting people. They want to stay in people's good books. They don't want to rock the boat too much. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, along with the fact that I myself have acted like that as scum, and drawn suspicion because of that. It's mostly a subconcious thing. You don't necessarily mean to act like this, but the worry that you might get under too heavy scrutiny if you antagonise someone leads to this behaviour. That apologetic post of yours is a very blatant example of this behaviour.

If you've been reading the thread, Infinitive has had a quite alot of shit happen in his life these past few weeks, and Thanatos is in the middle of studying for exams which are as stressful as hell. I appreciate that it's a stressful time for them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ease up on my investigations. I just wanted to say that so as to lessen the personal impact it may have had on them. It may have had absolutely no personal effect on them, but I'd rather waste my breath saying it, just in case.

Scum worry about upseting people. However, so do human beings.

I'll need to take the time to review this game properly (Yes, I know that I keep promising to do this; hopefully I can live up to that someday - between Christmas and the New Year should be a quiet time for me), but right now you're pinging pretty strongly on my scumdar, having not registered much there up till now.

You weren't on my radar either, and I realised it was because we had very little to go on. Now we do.

[Nudude]

In regards to Infinitive:,

I re - read this quote:

Wow... I've kind of had it with this bickering. DLS, DS, you have both participated to make this game suck, as far as I'm concerned. Before the two of you started to bicker, I was having a grand time, and I felt we were getting somewhere. Now the game's a mess and almost everyone but you two, Thanatos, and Deepthought have stopped posting. Screw this. I don't care if I get lynched or anything anymore.

Vote: Deepthought

I've said it before, and I've given my reasons several times over: I'm pretty sure Deepthought is scum. If I'm wrong and he was telling the truth, so be it, but nobody around here is acting scummier, IMHO.

Now I'm going to sit back and wait for the night.

If we're lucky, one of the two will get nightkilled to end this damn bickering.

I quote this for two reasons:

1) Underlined for emphasis. You clearly thought you were hammer voting.

2) You were paranoid that because you had mis - counted the votes, we were going to lynch you, as displayed in this post:

Ok, sorry for the trip post. Allow me to explain.

I hit the quick reply field on page 12, thinking I was on page 13 (when i hadn't read page 13). I had figured that the mod here wasn't going to do anything about the massive bickering that was going on between DLS and DS, and on top of an already terrible day (my D&D module, which premiered today, was ripped to shreds in front of me as I sat there and DM'd it. By the time I left the con, I was pissed and miserable... and last night my favorite character got eaten by an alligator AND the zipper on my pants literally exploded. I shit you not.), I just checked out emotionally. I came back here a little while later to see if anyone else had said anything, and page 13 looked a whole lot different than I had thought it was.

Sigh. Now I'm gonna get lynched for this, I just know it. This weekend can officially go sodomize itself with a chainsaw.

You explain that you voted because you were sick of the arguements, and you saw this as a way to end it.

I find this VERY suspicious. You tried to hammer on the basis that you were stressed out. Just then, you claimed that you didn't count the votes properly when you put Thanatos at L1. I think you would have learned your lesson.

I think your rushing to get to the nightphase. It's just a hunch (emphasis on hunch), but I think it's because your getting impatient and want to use your night powers......serial killer.