Newbie 1767 | Winter | Endgame

[SensFan]

Rask- Are you reading anything I write? At all?

Right. You said you expected due diligence from me one post after trying to discredit Loopdan by saying that not even I claimed it was on purpose. So

I pointed out that you were dead wrong on the facts and that I very explicitly said (claimed, from your perspective) that I did it purposefully.

Tell me more about doing due diligence on things I post though.

[Sickofit1138]

Btw is this more of sensfan only interacting and discrediting whoever dares to touch him.

[Raskolnikov]

How does that even work when it'd generally be considered a valid vote anyways?

[Raskolnikov]

7. Votes that misspell or have other minor errors will be counted as normal as long as I understand what you are getting at.

This is the norm and not unusual. He was hammered at that point regardless even if no one said anything.

Are you saying you're unaware of this?

[Raskolnikov]

Actually WTF

Even if that was true
If you wanted to react test to see if scum would point out your hammer was misdone that would imply thinking echovision was town WHILE lynching him

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Sensfan

Unless I hear a good explanation for this one.

[Sickofit1138]

Yay let's lynch Sensfan together Rask <3

[Sickofit1138]

VOTE: Sensfan

[SensFan]

We can quibble about if lack of bold text constitutes a "minor error". It's not super relevant. I certainly wasn't sure if it would be counted. Admittedly, much of my experience does come from an Era where the norm was that nonbolded votes weren't counted.

None of this responds to the fact you got on a high horse and told me you expected more due diligence from someone with my join date and then proceeded to be factually wrong on game events for several posts, and then double down by asking me to clarify those game events immediately after I had just clarified those game events.

[SensFan]

Actually WTF

Even if that was true
If you wanted to react test to see if scum would point out your hammer was misdone that would imply thinking echovision was town WHILE lynching him

Are you high? I actually can't fathom how you could possibly jump to this conclusion.

[TheBrie]

Yay let's lynch Sensfan together Rask <3

Does this mean you think Fred isn't scum? Or have you given up on Lucca? Or are you unsure about all of them?

[TheBrie]

Actually WTF

Even if that was true
If you wanted to react test to see if scum would point out your hammer was misdone that would imply thinking echovision was town WHILE lynching him

If Echo had been scum, couldn't the other scum still have reacted to the misdone hammer? I don't get what you're saying.

That said I'm wouldn't buy that it was intentional if not for the fact I would realize id I'd done something like that and fix it immediately.
Though maybe it was an accident to start with and he decided to leave it. Not that me posting the idea helps matters. It's too late for him to take a different story.

[Raskolnikov]

I said that your play didn't seem to match your join date. That I'd generally expect more due diligence than to quickhammer d1 without claim.

Your argument is it's hypocritical because I didn't do my due diligence? First off your ISO isn't exactly easy to read, and back at day start 235 gave me the impression you did just intend to hammer and not intentionally-mispell-to-reaction-test. Even then I'd consider the two very different things and comparing something like this to hammering d1 without claim as intellectually dishonest.

We can quibble about if lack of bold text constitutes a "minor error". It's not super relevant. I certainly wasn't sure if it would be counted. Admittedly, much of my experience does come from an Era where the norm was that nonbolded votes weren't counted.

"Not super relevant"
Okay, even if I assume because of era etc etc you thought the vote wouldn't be counted I still don't see how this makes any sense??

You want to lynch someone, you're helping lynch them, you think they're scum, so much so that you don't care to see a claim. "No claim would've change my mind!"
At the same time you intentionally mess up your vote as a reaction test to see who would correct you, presumably scum. It happens, you get corrected, at which point you do correct the vote and hammer, which even if you believed didn't count before it does now. Then you go into next day pinning it on lucca for "well she knew what would happen!".

If your test is to catch scum pointing out your mistake and you thought it wasn't a real hammer why would you THEN real hammer when someone does do this? How would any of this actually work?

[Sickofit1138]

Yay let's lynch Sensfan together Rask <3

Does this mean you think Fred isn't scum? Or have you given up on Lucca? Or are you unsure about all of them?

Is rather lynch Lucca over dens but I'm still happy with a sens lynch since the lucca wagon crumbled onto the Fred wagon. And I'd rather lynch Sens than Fred.

[Sickofit1138]

Plus all I'm seeing is more Sensfan BS OMGUS

[Sickofit1138]

@Sensfan I already explained and Rask has explained - that we are not wrong about the game events and your repeating over and over again that we're wrong. That's the only "scumhubting" you're doing (if you can call it that).

[Sickofit1138]

We've both made a couple to several posts (in Rask's case) that have pointed out what exactly we are saying yet you are completely ignoring it just so you can continue to OMGUS said person. That is more than enough reason to lynch in my book.

[SensFan]

@Sensfan I already explained and Rask has explained - that we are not wrong about the game events and your repeating over and over again that we're wrong. That's the only "scumhubting" you're doing (if you can call it that).

Rask was wrongoing about something that happened (that I did say/claim it was on purpose). That's a factual game event, and presumably an honest mistake out of carelessness.

You're both misrepresenting what came first in regards to me and Fred suspecting each other. That's less likely to be an honest mistake, and more likely to be purposefully disingenuous.

[Raskolnikov]

I was wrong in missing where you said that, yes, your post justifying the hammer strongly gave me the impression you did just mean to hammer him.
It's this reaction thing that's troubling now, that you were at that point sure enough to lynch him without claim but at the same time wanting to catch someone being opportunistic? I don't follow how you were that convinced he's scum and then think you should do this to try to catch scum trying to mislynch him at the same time.

If the point was to see if scum would point out the mispell how do you then comfortably hammer when it happens (when presumably you thought the vote didn't count before)? Wouldn't that just be going along with their wish if it was scum pointing it out maliciously?

I think it's way more likely an intentional mispell and then hammer after someone corrects you comes from a scum mindset knowing echo was town and thinking ahead to discredit from it next day than someone actually confident in their lynch to the point of ending the day early and without caring to see their claim. I thought "you forced my hand" towards lucca was dodgy already but now that you're saying you kind of knew that would happen too, that responsibility would be shared with whoever pointed it out? Why is your mind even here if you were convinced echo was scum? Not only that, I don't see how this is even supposed to work as a reaction test and how pointing it out would be all that AI...

[SensFan]

This is so ridiculous. I'll respond tonight when I'm home.

[lucca261]

Preparing a big post right now let's go

[lucca261]

And I'm buying that his uncounted hammer was intentionally messed up to extend the day.

I extremely doubt this is what his intention was there.
First off I think MOST rulesets would count the hammer as a hammer anyways under the interpretation rule (where anything that clearly looks like it was intended to be a vote counts as a vote, to prevent hammer sillyness), this game included if I read it right.

Second it looks like even sensfan himself isn't saying this wasn't the case so yeah?

@Lucca what was your question? I don't feel like reading back right now.

Point to me where there was filler on my posts. I want you to do it, because I think you were just using this word to make the case feel "bigger".

---

About Rasko vs Sens, at least page 17, that is where I am, I found it very weird.

I mean, the whole point of it seems to be based of SensFan failing to comprehend what Rasko was saying to him. Rasko was saying to him valid points about his play, and Sens was only not answering, cause he seemingly couldn't comprehend the point Rasko was making.

Also, Sens point about Rasko trying to discredit Loopdan is ???. The ironic part is that Sens is using this to discredit Rasko point about the hammer.

[lucca261]

Actually WTF

Even if that was true
If you wanted to react test to see if scum would point out your hammer was misdone that would imply thinking echovision was town WHILE lynching him

I think the only possible reason would be if Echo, "hammered", would post something that would make him confscum, then Sens would hammer him without a doubt.

But if Sens was so sure that Echo was scum, even that doesn't make sense.

Actually WTF

Even if that was true
If you wanted to react test to see if scum would point out your hammer was misdone that would imply thinking echovision was town WHILE lynching him

Are you high? I actually can't fathom how you could possibly jump to this conclusion.

@sens, what was your goal when pulling this gambit? answer clearly. how were you going to catch scum using it?

---

for me, the hammer itself wasn't so scummy. I mean, it was weird, and I would have liked to see more discussion that day, but it wasn't so scummy.

The main point about it that made me suspect Sens about it was the crazy outburst he has when asked about it:

For me, I can see scum thinking that they made a mistake, so when someone point it, he is overly defensive about it. Things like calling Huntress scummy cause she said the hammer was only his fault. This makes me think that he is being way too defensive for a townie, and makes me suspect him.

PS: I'm still a boy lol.

VOTE: Sensfan

HE'S AT L-1 NOW

I think it will be like, interesting for me to put my vote here. Very interesting.

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:

Still wanna think about this. See if he'll have an explanation.

[SensFan]

I was never "sure" Echo was Scum, nor was my original intention to hammer without a claim. I thought he was probably Scum, and was a fine choice as a D1 wagon/lynch. After four other people also agreed with said assessment (by voting for him), I gave notice that I was happy with an Echo lynch and that he should claim in his next post or be hammered. Fairly straightforward and common, and I assumed he would claim and we would have something to discuss. Instead, he doesn't claim and so he gets hammered. Again pretty straightforward, simple. At that point I realized that it being a relatively early hammer and in a Newbie game, I had the opportunity for a no-risk gambit. I would purposefully mess up the bold tags on the vote. This is hardly a new or original idea, was not at all unheard of back in the day (and I think a decent part of the reason for the shift from a "Votes will not count unless bolded" to "Votes may not count unless bolded" ruleset). This being a newbie game I felt like the possible rewards were certainly amplified relative to a game with experienced players, for fairly obvious reasons. Basically, either PP would count the vote or he wouldn't; I wasn't sure either way. If he counted the vote, nothing was lost or gained. Thus, we must only look at the situation (whatever the odds; I probably had them at about 25-50%) where he did not count the vote. In that scenario, there would be a portion of time in which some/all people would assume Echo was hammered and post accordingly when in fact he wasn't. Perhaps Echo would post something like "WTF! I was the Cop!" Perhaps someone would commit to a read/response to what they assumed was a completed wagon. More importantly though are the actions of anyone who thought the day might not be over. It would be noteworthy if someone rushed to unvote to prevent a hammer. It would be noteworthy if someone (as happened) objected to an early hammer but specifically did not unvote. It goes without saying that once someone pointed it out, any further benefits were lost and so I reverted to the original plan of hammering (perhaps again? perhaps for the first time?)

Having said all of that, this is way way way too much time spent discussing something fairly trivial and minor. It's really not worth analyzing that much, and I only mentioned it again because Rask made a case against Loopdan that involved me not having claimed it was done on purpose, and so I pointed out the inaccuracy.