Newbie 509 - Game Over

[Dean Harper]

I can see why ur suspicious cepi, but like you, I have a way of doing things. When I first started mafia, (in this game) I had no idea what I was doing. Hence the basic questions. I then took that info and integrated it into my game. Following some advice in this thread, I went to mafiawiki and read over the rules, tips, and roles. Then, I spent some time trying to figure out all this info and input it into my games. At that point, I joined 459 as a replacement. I found myself as a mafia member and tried to put my newfound knowledge to the test. Turns out, my mafia strategy worked very well.

I'm explaining all of this because I want to let you know cepi, that the reason for the sudden change is that I realized how the game was played better inthe other game tried to apply my knowledge here. Just to clear things up, I can also say that I tend to pick new things up rather quickly. Though in this case it took another game to help me break out of frequent posting and keeping my mouthshut when necessary.

[Dean Harper]

Also, as a sidenote, typing all of that on an iPod Touch is really hard.

[Dean Harper]

EBWOP:

Not hard, just takes about 20 minutes

[Xylthixlm]

Post 163: Rishi completely misses my point about lurkers. Being suspicious of people who don't contribute is

rational

. Even if lurkers aren't more likely to be scum, the people who

do

contribute will be drawing extra suspicion from their contributions; you have to balance that.

Post 164: Spurgistan throws some suspicion on Rishi without actually accusing him. Interesting, even though I agree with spurgistan's point.

Post 166: Dean Harper, even if you think cepi is the only suspicious person, there are two scum. You should consider who the other one might be.

Post 167: Still waiting for spurgistan's analysis on me. I'm sure it will be interesting.

Post 168: Rishi, I'd really love to know why I might be partnered with cepi.

Post 170: This strikes me as really odd. cepi is laying into Rishi so hard I'm starting to doubt that they're scum together. If they're not scum with each other, spurgistan seems like the most likely partner for either one, but I'll have to reread.

Post 171: The argument from experience is not convincing. Lurking draws suspicion for very good reason; if it didn't, scum could win by just lurking the whole game (and from what I've heard, sometimes do). Rishi seems to think that posting his honest opinion will hurt him. He also seems to be trying to get cepi to back off on his attacks and lurk. Maybe they're partners after all, and Rishi thinks cepi is bussing him too aggressively.

Post 174: cepi, it makes sense in a way. Rishi is saying that his opinion on who he'd like to lynch is worthless.


I haven't gone back through day 1 looking for scumteams, but my guesses so far in decreasing order are:
cepi + Rishi
Rishi + spurgistan
Rishi + DH
cepi + spurgistan
spurgistan + DH
cepi + DH

[Xylthixlm]

I found myself as a mafia member ... realized how the game was played better ... break out of frequent posting and keeping my mouthshut when necessary.

Why yes, I can see why not posting so frequently

would

be helpful for the scum. I'm still not sure why it would help the town, though.

[Rishi]

cepi -- Let me see if I can explain myself better. It seems that you are trying to provoke an emotional response out of me, and, when playing emotionally, I would be inclined to push for your lynch for the reason that you're frustrating to play with. I am not some robot that is above reacting negatively to being provoked - regardless of whether I am an IC or not. You don't have to sit back. You can ask probing, insightful questions without getting all riled up. In fact, I thought your last post was quite appropriate.

As for what I think of Dean Harper, didn't Xyl point out that this is his first game? It's just that he replaced into another one after joining this one. If he replaced into the game, he might have missed the IC and FoS discussion, which usually occurs on Day 1. There are definitely things I find suspicious about Dean Harper (I don't think he can ever be truly absolved for the hammer, for example), but not knowing the terminology isn't one of them.

Xyl -- I didn't say that you and cepi were scum. I said that, if cepi were scum, you're the only person I could see as his partner. He's distancing a bit much from me and Dean Harper (no votes yet - but we're in a lynch-or-lose situation so it makes sense). Also, spurgistan's vote on Tenebrys came so soon after cepi's that I doubt that spurgistan would follow his scumbuddy so closely.

[spurgistan]

Xyl, do you have anything to tie those pairings together? Seeing as how this is lylo, we should have a decent plan going forward before we start putting votes on. Additionally, I can't think of any reason why Rishi and cepi are anything like a scumpair. Separately, sure they haven't acquitted themselves well, but I don't see anything tying themselves together.

Oh wait... hmm...

[cepi]

Rereading the posts I found something. It may be irrelevant but now that we have 5 players it might add something to my theory:

Fun fact : Guess which two players suggested role claiming. (IMO, a bad idea)

Now, into the posts:

cepi + Rishi
Rishi + spurgistan
Rishi + DH
cepi + spurgistan
spurgistan + DH
cepi + DH

If I read well, then ur first option as scum is Rishi, right?
Then, do u think spurgistan is scummier than DH, why?

cepi -- Let me see if I can explain myself better. It seems that you are trying to provoke an emotional response out of me, and, when playing emotionally, I would be inclined to push for your lynch for the reason that you're frustrating to play with. I am not some robot that is above reacting negatively to being provoked - regardless of whether I am an IC or not. You don't have to sit back. You can ask probing, insightful questions without getting all riled up. In fact, I thought your last post was quite appropriate.

Rishi, What are u trying here? Why are u trying to subtly contribute with this "Rishi and Cepi are scumpartners" theory? My last post was like all others before it (inappropiates according to ur lurking gamestyle).

Xyl, do you have anything to tie those pairings together? Seeing as how this is lylo, we should have a decent plan going forward before we start putting votes on. Additionally, I can't think of any reason why Rishi and cepi are anything like a scumpair. Separately, sure they haven't acquitted themselves well, but I don't see anything tying themselves together.

Oh wait... hmm...

Waiting for his analysys. All I can say its wrong. Rishi is my principal suspect (besides DH) and if his following posts keep bopthering me Ill be the first one puting my vote on him.

[Rishi]

Fun fact : Guess which two players suggested role claiming. (IMO, a bad idea)

If there is a cop with a guilty result, he SHOULD claim now so that we're guaranteed to lynch Mafia. A cop with an innocent result to claim to derail a mislynch, but otherwise, claiming is a bad idea. A doctor should NOT claim.

Why do you think it's a bad idea?

Rishi, What are u trying here? Why are u trying to subtly contribute with this "Rishi and Cepi are scumpartners" theory? My last post was like all others before it (inappropiates according to ur lurking gamestyle).

1. I am telling the truth. You should try it once in a while.

2. My absence from the game has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME ITSELF. I WAS ABSENT DUE TO OTHER ISSUES. I am not lurking now and nor do I intend to lurk for the rest of the game. I see that you are going to continue to spout the same rhetoric no matter what people say. The fact that you keep bringing up an argument that is no longer true and was not that strong to begin with leads me to believe that you are intentionally not worried about actual probing and just pushing hard to get me lynched. I wasn't sure about your alignment before, but now I am getting scummy vibes.

Waiting for his analysys. All I can say its wrong. Rishi is my principal suspect (besides DH) and if his following posts keep bopthering me Ill be the first one puting my vote on him.

Were you trying to say "analysis"? Also, it's "principle" unless you think I am really the head of that junior high that you go to. I'm not sure what "bopthering" is, but I assure you that I'm not doing that to you, nor would I ever want to. Also, if your going to be "puting" your vote, please turn your head first.

Anyway, what do the rest of you think? As I said, I think Xyl is cepi's only possible scumpartner. So, of course Xyl is agreeing with him. I like how Xyl put me at the top of his suspect list and threw in "cepi" for some possible distancing.

I think spurgistan is making more sense. The main thing I found scummy about him before was the fact that he did put the L -1 vote on Tenebrys when he should have known better. I think DH's hammer was an honest mistake. Given JDodge's infrequent vote counts and the amount of time between Xyl's vote and cepi's, it looks bad but it's forgivable.

I think cepi's Mafia profile fits perfectly. He starts off the day going after spurg and DH (for L -1 and the hammer...) completely dodging the question about why his vote was on Tenebrys as well. Then, seeing an opportunity when I started posting less, and came after me. Then he used inflammatory language to try to provoke me into emotional play because, yes, I will admit that emotional play does look scummy. But, often it's the provoker (not the provokee) that's actually scummy.

And before cepi says I'm flip-flopping, I wasn't convinced he was scum before this last post. Same bad arguments over and over....

[spurgistan]

Oh hey, I just saw that Risi posted something similiar to this, I've been working offline on papers and such for a while. Cheers!

Interesting, Cepi seems to be getting impatient. Yes, we need to lynch a scumlord today and tomorrow or the baddies lose. But why would a townie be so dead certain of a scum right now? We have to be looking for

two

, or we lose. Even if Rishi is scum (that's non-judgmental, btw; I actually like you as town, Rishi) we're going to have to scope out his partner if we want to pull this out. And yes, the fact that Rishi's hasn't been posting doesn't bode well for the town; but we can't afford to Lynch All Lurkers (not to mention people who haven't been able to make type for MafiaScum, as Rishi seems to be; trust me, people, it happen). But even if he is, getting all pissy at him without looking at who he could possibly be connected to doesn't get us anywhere day 3.

So right now as I type this I'm thinkingthat Cepi is a likely scum for today. My personal theory would involve Xylthixlm being his partner, simply because of the antagonism they've had for each other all game. Crazy, say you? Like a fox, say I. Cepi is new to the game. This is indisputable, and if you are scum, Cepi, then you are really learning fast. But then there's Xylthixlm. He has been in on both bandwagons (Dean and Tenebrys), which of course I was too (as the Fun Facts pointed out) but I would like to highlight the Dean wagon, which he really just jumped all over page 2.
But that's just how IRC players play, yes. But IRC scum, I would argue, even more.
And then there's how Cepi and Xyl have interacted, which is jumping rapidly from being at each others throats (IIRC) to what they've been recently, as in somewhat assured of each other. So, yeah, I like Cepi and Xyl for a scumpairing as of now. Any other thoughts? (Besides you now, Rishi?)

[Dean Harper]

ill make comments later today, right now, ive got school.

[Dean Harper]

ok, so... I'm also thinking of cepi as definite scum, but I'm worried about spurg as his partner, not Xyl. I have looked at other games, and I frequently see the scum as the guys suggesting the scumpair at the end of day two or agreeing with someone they know is town in order to appear town. This probably seems a little gauge of a reason to suspect him, but nonetheless, I'm still worried. My vote is probably going cepi today. If he turns out town, well... That sucks but I feel he is most scummy, followed by spurg. I am going to go over spurg's posts and I hope something shows itself.

[cepi]

If there is a cop with a guilty result, he SHOULD claim now so that we're guaranteed to lynch Mafia. A cop with an innocent result to claim to derail a mislynch, but otherwise, claiming is a bad idea. A doctor should NOT claim.

Why do you think it's a bad idea?

Read this. I couldnt have put it better myself :

And no, DH, a mass-claim (what I think you asked for) would not at all be a good thing, now. We need to lynch one of the scumlords today, or the game is lost. If we manage to pull that off today(40% odds, although I can obviously call that 50% if we don't lynch me) we go into tomorrow with either 3 townies : 1 scum or 2:1, depending on whether or not we get a doc protection (3:1 against). Also, the cop's investiagation becomes incrementally more powerful as the players dwindle. If we have a power role survive the night, that basically wins the game for town. Anyways, in a c-9 game a mass-claim is essentially worthless, as there are only 3 roles with no character names to claim, and anybody can claim vanilla. All that will do is add five posts with everybody claiming vanilla.

2. My absence from the game has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME ITSELF. I WAS ABSENT DUE TO OTHER ISSUES. I am not lurking now and nor do I intend to lurk for the rest of the game. I see that you are going to continue to spout the same rhetoric no matter what people say.

Ok. I can understand this. What I dont understand is that u did post in other games. 0ne or two lignes. I dont care. Why didnt u do this here? Why did u

totally

ignore us? Your lurking IMO, its extremely scummy. Then, u and Spurgistan had an interesting chat where u kinda defended the lurking (Ok, Ok, the "I dont have time for

this

game") situation.

That may be true on IRC, but here I think the opposite is true. Most players on here seem suspicious of people who don't contribute, even if that lack of contribution has no correlation to the game.

This isn't an accusation, Rishi, I really like hearing you post. But would you agree that the correct play for scum here, as they're on the verge of winning with no evidence of power roles thus far, would be to sit back and let the townies yell at each other?

Thats what we basically were doing until Xyl kinda shows his interest in my case. Guess what u posted in the following post. A subtle attack on spurgistan and myself. Not so obvious, just throwing the suspicions. maybe trying to get a little help from Xyl. Probably.

Were you trying to say "analysis"? Also, it's "principle" unless you think I am really the head of that junior high that you go to. I'm not sure what "bopthering" is, but I assure you that I'm not doing that to you, nor would I ever want to. Also, if your going to be "puting" your vote, please turn your head first.

Im not going to respond to this because its so stupid and irrelevant to the game. I dont understand why u as an IC are trying to play so dirty. Its obvious english is not my first language. In fact, its my fourth and Im just learning it.

Anyway, what do the rest of you think? As I said, I think Xyl is cepi's only possible scumpartner. So, of course Xyl is agreeing with him. I like how Xyl put me at the top of his suspect list and threw in "cepi" for some possible distancing.

Yeah, DH was doing the same thing with his theory of "Rishi and Cepi" are scum. This might add something to ur silly theory, but I find Xyl protown, although he seemed scummy when he put DH at L-1, days ago. Besides that, and taking in count his kinda believable IRC excuse, he hasnt done anything particular scummy IMO. What its extremely scummy is that u are throwing suspicions on him just because we're both in his top list. Have u found something else that Im not seeing, Rishi?

I think cepi's Mafia profile fits perfectly. He starts off the day going after spurg and DH (for L -1 and the hammer...) completely dodging the question about why his vote was on Tenebrys as well.

I didnt.

You were on the lynch as well. You can participate in the conversation.

Sure. Before voting I didnt have a principal suspect. Even Tenebrys wasnt enough suspicious for me, taking in count he had just a few posts with not enough input.

So why did I vote him? Basically, he was a lurking player. I honestly think there was a big possibility of finding scum in his lurking attitudes. Besides the irrelevant fact that I dont like that gamestyle. So, I thought putting him in L-2 was enough to get him talking.

Yeah, Rishi. I guess u didnt find another thing to make me look scummy. Next time, find a true fact.

Then, seeing an opportunity when I started posting less, and came after me. Then he used inflammatory language to try to provoke me into emotional play because, yes, I will admit that emotional play does look scummy. But, often it's the provoker (not the provokee) that's actually scummy.

I think the overreaction is scummier. I wasnt trying to provoke u. I was just trying to see how u were going to react because at that time I wasn sure that u were scum. And u reacted very bad. After that emotional post, I confirmed my theory. And after u felt bad about that overreaction I was even more sure.

Interesting, Cepi seems to be getting impatient. Yes, we need to lynch a scumlord today and tomorrow or the baddies lose. But why would a townie be so dead certain of a scum right now? We have to be looking for two, or we lose. Even if Rishi is scum (that's non-judgmental, btw; I actually like you as town, Rishi) we're going to have to scope out his partner if we want to pull this out

Im not being impatient, Spurg. Im just so sure with my theory. BTW, if u havent been reading my posts I believe DH is his scumpartner. Why? I just found another thing rereading (I think is the 7th time) the thread.

Rishi suspects Xyl in post 128 (fun fact: IMO an irrelevant attack with not enough backup for being post in D-2)
Rishi suspects Spurg for the L-1 in post 131 (and he lets DH out of suspicions when he was the one who hammered Tenebrys)
DH suspects Spurg in post 135
DH suspects Cepi in posts 144,147,150,153,157(he suddeny suspects Rishi in this last post)
Rishi comes back from his lurking and suspects Spurgistan and Cepi. post 161
DH suspects Cepi again. post 166
Rishi suspects Cepi and Xyl post 168
DH suspects Cepi and Xyl post 169 (!!)
Rishi strongly suspects Cepi post 183
DH strongly suspects Cepi post 186 (!!!)

Dont u see a pattern? Both of these players were in all the attacks to the other 3 players and they somehow change his plans according to the game situation. Rishi's only attack on DH was in page 1 and IMO for a weak reason. A possible busing here. And guess who was the first unvoting when DH was at L-1 and was getting all nervous with a possible death. Yeah, Rishi.

[Dean Harper]

I see where you want to put blame on Rishi here cepi, as well as myself. But if you look at Rishi's reasons for not suspectingme, they can be seen as perfectly legitimate. Though now that you point this out, i do see where you are coming from. Nonetheless, I think you are still scum. My suspicion however has definetally been raised for Rishi and I am questioning whether he should be dismissed as town in my part. This is going to be a long day 2

[Dean Harper]

2. My absence from the game has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME ITSELF. I WAS ABSENT DUE TO OTHER ISSUES. I am not lurking now and nor do I intend to lurk for the rest of the game. I see that you are going to continue to spout the same rhetoric no matter what people say.

Ok. I can understand this. What I dont understand is that u did post in other games. 0ne or two lignes. I dont care. Why didnt u do this here? Why did u

totally

ignore us? Your lurking IMO, its extremely scummy. Then, u and Spurgistan had an interesting chat where u kinda defended the lurking (Ok, Ok, the "I dont have time for

this

game") situation.

Though I can understand your reasoning for suspecting Rishi's lurking behavior, i can also say that Rishi's own reasoning for not posting (not having anything important to say) as a viable reason. As i learned with my replacement game 459, can be a good thing for scum to do. I'm very glad you pointed this out Cepi, because i had completely overlooked this post.

That may be true on IRC, but here I think the opposite is true. Most players on here seem suspicious of people who don't contribute, even if that lack of contribution has no correlation to the game.

This isn't an accusation, Rishi, I really like hearing you post. But would you agree that the correct play for scum here, as they're on the verge of winning with no evidence of power roles thus far, would be to sit back and let the townies yell at each other?

what we basically were doing until Xyl kinda shows his interest in my case. Guess what u posted in the following post. A subtle attack on spurgistan and myself. Not so obvious, just throwing the suspicions. maybe trying to get a little help from Xyl. Probably.

More evidence of what i said above. Again, thanks for pointing it out for me Cepi.

Anyway, what do the rest of you think? As I said, I think Xyl is cepi's only possible scumpartner. So, of course Xyl is agreeing with him. I like how Xyl put me at the top of his suspect list and threw in "cepi" for some possible distancing.

, DH was doing the same thing with his theory of "Rishi and Cepi" are scum. This might add something to ur silly theory, but I find Xyl protown, although he seemed scummy when he put DH at L-1, days ago. Besides that, and taking in count his kinda believable IRC excuse, he hasnt done anything particular scummy IMO. What its extremely scummy is that u are throwing suspicions on him just because we're both in his top list. Have u found something else that Im not seeing, Rishi?

I believe that wasnt my theory, it was Xyl's. I personally had thought about it for a while, though i wanted to try and get some evidence before i posted that it was a possibility.

I think cepi's Mafia profile fits perfectly. He starts off the day going after spurg and DH (for L -1 and the hammer...) completely dodging the question about why his vote was on Tenebrys as well.

I didnt.

Though it was not asked, i believe what Rishi was saying here was that you never even mentioned it, which lead him to believe that you were trying to avoid it.

You were on the lynch as well. You can participate in the conversation.

Sure. Before voting I didnt have a principal suspect. Even Tenebrys wasnt enough suspicious for me, taking in count he had just a few posts with not enough input.

So why did I vote him? Basically, he was a lurking player. I honestly think there was a big possibility of finding scum in his lurking attitudes. Besides the irrelevant fact that I dont like that gamestyle. So, I thought putting him in L-2 was enough to get him talking.

Yeah, Rishi. I guess u didnt find another thing to make me look scummy. Next time, find a true fact.

You two need to stop bickering, its kinda distracting from the other players who could possibly be scum.

Then, seeing an opportunity when I started posting less, and came after me. Then he used inflammatory language to try to provoke me into emotional play because, yes, I will admit that emotional play does look scummy. But, often it's the provoker (not the provokee) that's actually scummy.

I think the overreaction is scummier.

I wasnt trying to provoke u. I was just trying to see how u were going to react because at that time I wasn sure that u were scum.

And u reacted very bad. After that emotional post, I confirmed my theory. And after u felt bad about that overreaction I was even more sure.

Provoking and trying to see how someone reacts are basically the same thing.

Interesting, Cepi seems to be getting impatient. Yes, we need to lynch a scumlord today and tomorrow or the baddies lose. But why would a townie be so dead certain of a scum right now? We have to be looking for two, or we lose. Even if Rishi is scum (that's non-judgmental, btw; I actually like you as town, Rishi) we're going to have to scope out his partner if we want to pull this out

Im not being impatient, Spurg. Im just so sure with my theory. BTW, if u havent been reading my posts I believe DH is his scumpartner. Why? I just found another thing rereading (I think is the 7th time) the thread.

Rishi suspects Xyl in post 128 (fun fact: IMO an irrelevant attack with not enough backup for being post in D-2)
Rishi suspects Spurg for the L-1 in post 131 (and he lets DH out of suspicions when he was the one who hammered Tenebrys)
DH suspects Spurg in post 135
DH suspects Cepi in posts 144,147,150,153,157(he suddeny suspects Rishi in this last post)
Rishi comes back from his lurking and suspects Spurgistan and Cepi. post 161
DH suspects Cepi again. post 166
Rishi suspects Cepi and Xyl post 168
DH suspects Cepi and Xyl post 169 (!!)
Rishi strongly suspects Cepi post 183
DH strongly suspects Cepi post 186 (!!!)

Dont u see a pattern? Both of these players were in all the attacks to the other 3 players and they somehow change his plans according to the game situation. Rishi's only attack on DH was in page 1 and IMO for a weak reason. A possible busing here. And guess who was the first unvoting when DH was at L-1 and was getting all nervous with a possible death. Yeah, Rishi.

If we were scum partners, dont you think Rishi, being and IC, would have left me to myself and only slipped in small remarks in order to have other people unvote me and not himself?

[Rishi]

If there is a cop with a guilty result, he SHOULD claim now so that we're guaranteed to lynch Mafia. A cop with an innocent result to claim to derail a mislynch, but otherwise, claiming is a bad idea. A doctor should NOT claim.

Why do you think it's a bad idea?

Read this. I couldnt have put it better myself :

And no, DH, a mass-claim (what I think you asked for) would not at all be a good thing, now. We need to lynch one of the scumlords today, or the game is lost. If we manage to pull that off today(40% odds, although I can obviously call that 50% if we don't lynch me) we go into tomorrow with either 3 townies : 1 scum or 2:1, depending on whether or not we get a doc protection (3:1 against). Also, the cop's investiagation becomes incrementally more powerful as the players dwindle. If we have a power role survive the night, that basically wins the game for town. Anyways, in a c-9 game a mass-claim is essentially worthless, as there are only 3 roles with no character names to claim, and anybody can claim vanilla. All that will do is add five posts with everybody claiming vanilla.

See, this is where your arguments are very, very weak. Did I ever suggest a mass claim? A mass claim is a really bad idea. All I am saying is that a cop with a guilty claim should claim, so we're guaranteed to hit scum today. A cop with an innocent result SHOULD CLAIM to derail a mislynch, because we automatically lose if we lynch someone we know is innocent. A doctor should not claim.

THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MASS CLAIM AND HAVING ONE POWER ROLE CLAIM IN LIMITED SITUATIONS. YOU ARE EITHER BLATANTLY MANIPULATING THE FACTS OR WORSE, YOU ARE EITHER NOT READING OR NOT UNDERSTANDING.

2. My absence from the game has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME ITSELF. I WAS ABSENT DUE TO OTHER ISSUES. I am not lurking now and nor do I intend to lurk for the rest of the game. I see that you are going to continue to spout the same rhetoric no matter what people say.

Ok. I can understand this. What I dont understand is that u did post in other games. 0ne or two lignes. I dont care. Why didnt u do this here? Why did u

totally

ignore us? Your lurking IMO, its extremely scummy. Then, u and Spurgistan had an interesting chat where u kinda defended the lurking (Ok, Ok, the "I dont have time for

this

game") situation.

You're acting like I was gone for two weeks or something. I didn't post for FIVE DAYS. I knew I would be able to post before it got to be too long. I was in a newbie game that lasted over six months. Five days isn't that long in the scheme of things.

And we just proved in this game the problem with attacking the player who is not contributing. Look what happened when people started piling on Tenebrys for lurking.

Thats what we basically were doing until Xyl kinda shows his interest in my case. Guess what u posted in the following post. A subtle attack on spurgistan and myself. Not so obvious, just throwing the suspicions. maybe trying to get a little help from Xyl. Probably.

I've probably suspected everyone in this game at one point or another, except for Mispeled and Tenebrys (I did suspect Tenebrys briefly in one post) - the two confirmed townies. I think if you look at everyone's posts, they have suspicions on every living player. I couldn't find any place where you suspected Xyl, though.

Were you trying to say "analysis"? Also, it's "principle" unless you think I am really the head of that junior high that you go to. I'm not sure what "bopthering" is, but I assure you that I'm not doing that to you, nor would I ever want to. Also, if your going to be "puting" your vote, please turn your head first.

Im not going to respond to this because its so stupid and irrelevant to the game. I dont understand why u as an IC are trying to play so dirty. Its obvious english is not my first language. In fact, its my fourth and Im just learning it.

I sincerely apologize for this. I had no idea that English was not your first language as this is the first time you've mentioned it and you don't have your location field filled out. I figured, since you continued to mock me with the "Fun fact" things, I would resort to an immature attacks.

But it does bring up a point - ICs are not perfect or better than newbies. They are just people who played a lot. Making assumptions about ICs doesn't always work. There are some really bad players who qualify as ICs. I don't think spurg is one of them and I hope that I'm not, but who knows? It's hard to be objective about your own play - EVERYONE usually thinks positively about their own play.

Yeah, DH was doing the same thing with his theory of "Rishi and Cepi" are scum. This might add something to ur silly theory, but I find Xyl protown, although he seemed scummy when he put DH at L-1, days ago. Besides that, and taking in count his kinda believable IRC excuse, he hasnt done anything particular scummy IMO. What its extremely scummy is that u are throwing suspicions on him just because we're both in his top list. Have u found something else that Im not seeing, Rishi?

I think it's unusual how the two of you seem to be agreeing with each other. I find you scummy and you're sticking up for Xyl. So I find Xyl scummy. It may not be a strong argument, but it's there.

I think cepi's Mafia profile fits perfectly. He starts off the day going after spurg and DH (for L -1 and the hammer...) completely dodging the question about why his vote was on Tenebrys as well.

I didnt.

You were on the lynch as well. You can participate in the conversation.

Sure. Before voting I didnt have a principal suspect. Even Tenebrys wasnt enough suspicious for me, taking in count he had just a few posts with not enough input.

So why did I vote him? Basically, he was a lurking player. I honestly think there was a big possibility of finding scum in his lurking attitudes. Besides the irrelevant fact that I dont like that gamestyle. So, I thought putting him in L-2 was enough to get him talking.

Yeah, Rishi. I guess u didnt find another thing to make me look scummy. Next time, find a true fact.

I remembered your post. I feel it was kind of a wishy-washy defense of your vote. I still don't think you really answered for the vote. Every living player except me had a hand in lynching Tenebrys. Yet you continued to try to suspect spurg and DH for their L-1 and hammer votes while not receiving any pressure for your vote.

As you were wrong before about lurking = scummy, don't think you think you could be wrong again? (And, once again, I wasn't even lurking. I just didn't post for five days. I have not lurked since then.)

I think the overreaction is scummier. I wasnt trying to provoke u. I was just trying to see how u were going to react because at that time I wasn sure that u were scum. And u reacted very bad. After that emotional post, I confirmed my theory. And after u felt bad about that overreaction I was even more sure.

You weren't trying to provoke me? Could have fooled me. I would point to other games where I was town where I overreacted, but you don't read this game carefully enough, so I doubt you'd do any homework and read other games.

Rishi suspects Xyl in post 128 (fun fact: IMO an irrelevant attack with not enough backup for being post in D-2)

How many games have you played? Your attack is the fact that the post was in Day 2? How do you know what is and isn't appropriate for Day 2? I was trying to get a reaction out of Xyl. I had made an honest mistake by missing that spurg was on both bandwagons as well.

Rishi suspects Spurg for the L-1 in post 131 (and he lets DH out of suspicions when he was the one who hammered Tenebrys)

At this point, I don't think DH is scum. How is this any different than you sticking up for Xyl?

DH suspects Spurg in post 135
DH suspects Cepi in posts 144,147,150,153,157(he suddeny suspects Rishi in this last post)
Rishi comes back from his lurking and suspects Spurgistan and Cepi. post 161
DH suspects Cepi again. post 166
Rishi suspects Cepi and Xyl post 168
DH suspects Cepi and Xyl post 169 (!!)
Rishi strongly suspects Cepi post 183
DH strongly suspects Cepi post 186 (!!!)

Dont u see a pattern?

Yes. You are a big fan of OMGUS.

Anyway, I think this cepi-Rishi thing is dominating the thread. And if we both happen to be town (I really think cepi is scum, but he could just be a confused townie), then we are letting the scum get away. I think we should end this, cepi and focus more attention on the three other players. If you want to get in your "last word," that's fine. I won't respond again.

Xyl - What do you think?

[Dean Harper]

its odd for Xyl not to be posting, maybe hes away?

[Rishi]

its odd for Xyl not to be posting, maybe hes away?

Xyl's last post was two days ago. He'll respond.

[spurgistan]

If there is a cop with a guilty result, he SHOULD claim now so that we're guaranteed to lynch Mafia. A cop with an innocent result to claim to derail a mislynch, but otherwise, claiming is a bad idea. A doctor should NOT claim.

Why do you think it's a bad idea?

Read this. I couldnt have put it better myself :

And no, DH, a mass-claim (what I think you asked for) would not at all be a good thing, now. We need to lynch one of the scumlords today, or the game is lost. If we manage to pull that off today(40% odds, although I can obviously call that 50% if we don't lynch me) we go into tomorrow with either 3 townies : 1 scum or 2:1, depending on whether or not we get a doc protection (3:1 against). Also, the cop's investiagation becomes incrementally more powerful as the players dwindle. If we have a power role survive the night, that basically wins the game for town. Anyways, in a c-9 game a mass-claim is essentially worthless, as there are only 3 roles with no character names to claim, and anybody can claim vanilla. All that will do is add five posts with everybody claiming vanilla.

This also has a bit to do with Rishi's last post.
Just to clarify, while a massclaim and cop claiming are not one and the same, and my response was to DH's suggestion of the former while Rishi wanted to know if there is a guilty investigation result. However, the math about outing power roles still exists, and given that we're in lylo I'm not quite sure that claiming right now with a guilty is the best play for town. Breadcrumb like woah so that if you're NKed we can try and figure out your investigations, but I'm not sure automatically claiming if you get a guilty makes sense.

[Xylthixlm]

180: Rishi is still pretty inscrutable. I can see that he's experienced, and paying attention. I don't actually understand the accusation that cepi is being excessively provocative - how are we supposed to get anywhere without giving opinions?

Rishi; I understand that part. What I don't understand is why you don't think cepi could be partnered with anyone else. You and spurgistan both seem like possible partners to me.

181: spurgistan, my reasoning on the scum pairings is mostly just a gut feeling; there's some logic but I can't really articulate it very well. I'm not going to start putting on votes.

For cepi and Rishi, cepi has been very aggressive towards everyone but me today. Rishi seems to be particularly riled up about it, though, and is basically telling cepi to back off and keep quiet. That's not the reaction I'd expect from a townie being attacked; Rishi is criticizing the form of the accusation rather than the content. That, combined with the fact that Rishi was encouraging cepi to lurk, makes me think they could be scum doing some excessive distancing.

182: My first option for scum is Rishi, that is correct. You're #2.
I think spurgistan is scummier than DH because I have a feeling DH is protown, but a neutral read on spurgistan. As someone pointed out, the whole exchange on day 1 really does seem like we were both town. He's managing to make me more suspicious lately though.

183: Rishi is correct on the cop thing, although if we reach a stalemate a cop claim might help break it open. Not until later, though.

It's nice to see Rishi contributing at last. Rishi, how about a ranking of people and/or scumpairs in order of scumminess? If you're really paying attention like you claim, you should be able to produce one even if you're not 100% sure about it.

I'm really curious how you think I'm agreeing with cepi. Also, if you really think I'm cepi's only possible scumpartner, that implies that cepi can't be scum unless I am, so you should be attacking

me

rather than cepi. Why aren't you doing that? It seems like you're setting up to lynch cepi, kill, and then flip it off into a mislynch of me on day 3.

184: The same thing applies here. Anyone who thinks that cepi is scum (probably) and I'm cepi's only possible scumpartner (wrong) should be attacking me rather than cepi.

spurgistan; you haven't actually played with me on IRC, I see. I'm notorious for being ridiculously aggressive in the early game. I'd like to think I'm also notorious for correctly guessing the scum in the endgame.

How you get me being "somewhat assured" of someone who I think is one of the two scum is beyond me. Perhaps you can elaborate.

186: DH, why do you think it's cepi + spurgistan and not cepi + Rishi? Also, as many people have mentioned, don't vote yet. If cepi turns out town we lose the game.

187: I definitely need to look at Rishi's posts in other games to see if this holds up. Something to do later. I really like putting things off until later.

Wow, English as a fourth language? Impressive. You're better than many native English speakers; I think Rishi assumed you're just lazy, since your writing really isn't that bad.

The "Rishi and cepi are scum" thing was ME, not DH. Unless DH did it too; I didn't notice it if he did.

Wow, that's some nice analysis. I'd better do a reread tomorrow and see if it holds up. If it does I'll be rethinking my list.

188: It may be a long day 2, but I have good hopes we're going to end up lynching scum.

189: Not having anything important to say is a bad reason for not posting, although I'll admit to being guilty of it on occasion. We can get information out of people's gut feelings as well as their careful analysis.

DH, you're quoting so much, I can barely find your text. This does not make me happy.

190: I can see why Rishi is yelling here. I'd be yelling, too, if I was being attacked for such a stupid reason. This reminds me of day 1.

Piling on Tenebrys for lurking ended in a mislynch, but it sure has generated some interesting discussion today. I'm not counting it as a total waste.

cepi suspected me day 1, when me and DH were monopolizing the thread.

I haven't noticed cepi sticking up for me in particular. If it's there, it's possibly an attempt to look good by agreeing with a protown player.

Rishi, if you still want your reaction, I'll freely admit that I'm not too cautious about voting day 1. It generates discussion, and I don't really care if it makes me look scummy.

Rishi's attempt to deflect the discussion away from himself is noted. Rather than trying to get other people to stop talking about you, how about

you

talk about who else

you

think is scummy? I'd especially like that if it was in a concise form, without all the comments separated by miles of quotes. I'm having a really hard time reading that stuff.

191: Not really away; IRC mafia was really lively and I spent the whole day playing, and ended up completely forgetting to check this thread. We had some nice 9, 10, and 11 player games.

193: I'd much rather have a cop come out with a guilty so we can get a guaranteed correct lynch, and then worry about tomorrow when it comes up. I think if there

was

a cop with a guilty it would have come out by now, though. I'm refraining from any further speculation about power roles.

[cepi]

Ok, this is my last answer to Rishi. Although I firmly believe DH and Rishi are possible scumpartners theres something that has been bitching in my mind for a few days and if somehow one of them (or even worse, both,- which I doubt however-) comes up town then it would only be my fault. Ill give u a rest to see what can come up in the next pages, but I have the feeling nothing will change my mind.

Into the posts.

Provoking and trying to see how someone reacts are basically the same thing.

I dont think so. I see "provoking" more as "trying to get a suspicious answer, a bad reaction" while "trying to see how someone reacts" as "well, I dont know if u'r scum so Ill analyse carefully ur next answer" The thing is that Rishi reacted very badly, IMO.

If we were scum partners, dont you think Rishi, being and IC, would have left me to myself and only slipped in small remarks in order to have other people unvote me and not himself?

Is this WIFOM? In my "Rishi-DH are scum" theory and at that point of the game, any townie could have hammered you. So Rishi had to act pretty fast. This, also, could be seen as an oppotunity for Rishi to look protown.

See, this is where your arguments are very, very weak. Did I ever suggest a mass claim? A mass claim is a really bad idea. All I am saying is that a cop with a guilty claim should claim, so we're guaranteed to hit scum today. A cop with an innocent result SHOULD CLAIM to derail a mislynch, because we automatically lose if we lynch someone we know is innocent. A doctor should not claim.

Spurgistan answered to this:

Im wondering if a roll call might help, since we have no idea if we have a cop or not

Althpugh Spurgistan began his explanation with a "mass claim" situation if u read well ull find that he is kinda sure about a cop claiming not being a good idea.

Also, the cop's investiagation becomes incrementally more powerful as the players dwindle. If we have a power role survive the night, that basically wins the game for town

Thtas why I think (I could be wrong) that a cop claiming today is a bad idea

unless

we have a very critical situation. (town somehow agrees to lynch an innocent) I dont think we're at one.

I've probably suspected everyone in this game at one point or another, except for Mispeled and Tenebrys (I did suspect Tenebrys briefly in one post) - the two confirmed townies. I think if you look at everyone's posts, they have suspicions on every living player. I couldn't find any place where you suspected Xyl, though.

When did u

suspect

DH? IIRC I strongly suspected Xyl D-1. His L-1 on DH is still on my mind but apart from that I dont find another suspicious thing in his behaviour. Again, do u? (besides this weak argument:)

I think it's unusual how the two of you seem to be agreeing with each other. I find you scummy and you're sticking up for Xyl. So I find Xyl scummy. It may not be a strong argument, but it's there.

I remembered your post. I feel it was kind of a wishy-washy defense of your vote. I still don't think you really answered for the vote. Every living player except me had a hand in lynching Tenebrys. Yet you continued to try to suspect spurg and DH for their L-1 and hammer votes while not receiving any pressure for your vote.

What? Do I have to explain again the second vote on Tenebrys? I think its pretty clear.

So why did I vote him? Basically, he was a lurking player. I honestly think there was a big possibility of finding scum in his lurking attitudes. Besides the irrelevant fact that I dont like that gamestyle. So, I thought putting him in L-2 was enough to get him talking.

My reason can be stupid in ur reasoning, but heres the thing I dont understand. Do u think the second vote on Tenebrys is more suspicious than Spurgistan's L-1 or DH`s hammer?

How many games have you played? Your attack is the fact that the post was in Day 2? How do you know what is and isn't appropriate for Day 2? I was trying to get a reaction out of Xyl. I had made an honest mistake by missing that spurg was on both bandwagons as well.

This is my first game. Ive read 5-6 short games. Its not relevant. I think. What its, is the fact that u think Im suspicious for trying to get a reaction when u do the same thing.

At this point, I don't think DH is scum. How is this any different than you sticking up for Xyl?

Xyl's scummy actions : L-1 on DH. A bit of impatience D-1.

DH's scummy actions : Hammer on Tenebrys. A lot of impatience D-1. Claims town. Seems to follow this pattern:

DH suspects Spurg in post 135
DH suspects Cepi in posts 144,147,150,153,157(he suddeny suspects Rishi in this last post)
Rishi comes back from his lurking and suspects Spurgistan and Cepi. post 161
DH suspects Cepi again. post 166
Rishi suspects Cepi and Xyl post 168
DH suspects Cepi and Xyl post 169 (!!)
Rishi strongly suspects Cepi post 183
DH strongly suspects Cepi post 186 (!!!)

See any diference?

Anyway, I think this cepi-Rishi thing is dominating the thread. And if we both happen to be town (I really think cepi is scum, but he could just be a confused townie), then we are letting the scum get away. I think we should end this, cepi and focus more attention on the three other players. If you want to get in your "last word," that's fine. I won't respond again.

Since u gave me the opportunity to have a last word, then I feel I have to give you one as well.

Ill analyse Xyl's post tomorrow. This one is already too long.

[Rishi]

No time for a response now. Will respond to Xyl later and might see if there's anything left to say to cepi.

[cepi]

My analysis is in bold. Saving time without the quoting job.

180: Rishi is still pretty inscrutable. I can see that he's experienced, and paying attention. I don't actually understand the accusation that cepi is being excessively provocative - how are we supposed to get anywhere without giving opinions?

Same here. I posted sopmehting like this earlier, IIRC

Rishi; I understand that part. What I don't understand is why you don't think cepi could be partnered with anyone else. You and spurgistan both seem like possible partners to me.

More on this later

181: For cepi and Rishi, cepi has been very aggressive towards everyone but me today. Rishi seems to be particularly riled up about it, though, and is basically telling cepi to back off and keep quiet. That's not the reaction I'd expect from a townie being attacked; Rishi is criticizing the form of the accusation rather than the content. That, combined with the fact that Rishi was encouraging cepi to lurk, makes me think they could be scum doing some excessive distancing.

I dont undertand how both facts (Rishi criticizing/reacting in a

wrong way

and encouraging me to lurk) can lead to an excessive distancing

182: My first option for scum is Rishi, that is correct. You're #2.
I think spurgistan is scummier than DH because I have a feeling DH is protown, but a neutral read on spurgistan. As someone pointed out, the whole exchange on day 1 really does seem like we were both town. He's managing to make me more suspicious lately though.

Theres something I dont like in DH's style. The fact is that I already know what he's capable of doing/pretending. I agree that after the D-1 incident both of u seemed to be protown, but really, am I the only one seeing his hammer and posterior excuses as terrible scumtells?

I'm really curious how you think I'm agreeing with cepi. Also, if you really think I'm cepi's only possible scumpartner, that implies that cepi can't be scum unless I am, so you should be attacking me rather than cepi.

I think he should be atacking both, not just you.

184: The same thing applies here. Anyone who thinks that cepi is scum (probably) and I'm cepi's only possible scumpartner (wrong) should be attacking me rather than cepi.

Read above

186: DH, why do you think it's cepi + spurgistan and not cepi + Rishi?

Because maybe he's more intelligent or protwon than I think.

187: I definitely need to look at Rishi's posts in other games to see if this holds up. Something to do later. I really like putting things off until later.

I really would like this analysis

The "Rishi and cepi are scum" thing was ME, not DH. Unless DH did it too; I didn't notice it if he did.

He suddenly did it. Post 157, without backup.

190: I can see why Rishi is yelling here. I'd be yelling, too, if I was being attacked for such a stupid reason. This reminds me of day 1.

Stupid reason? What stupid reason?

Piling on Tenebrys for lurking ended in a mislynch, but it sure has generated some interesting discussion today. I'm not counting it as a total waste.

This makes me remember someone posting it was a totally waste. Spurgistan?

I haven't noticed cepi sticking up for me in particular. If it's there, it's possibly an attempt to look good by agreeing with a protown player.

I like ur analysis. In my reasoning, a protown player posts without fear, tries to gather a lot of information, suspects with backup. U pass the test. The other townie should realise who is posting like this and who isnt. Also, the reason Im not suspecting u (yet) is beacuse the other three players are so above over the neutral line

193: I'd much rather have a cop come out with a guilty so we can get a guaranteed correct lynch, and then worry about tomorrow when it comes up. I think if there was a cop with a guilty it would have come out by now, though. I'm refraining from any further speculation about power roles.

[cepi]

Sorry for the double post. Somehow I clicked submit rather than preview, Dont worry. All was left, were my conclusions.

a) I find Xyl the most protown player. I like his analysis. I feel identified as townie in his objective of finding scum. I dont have problems admitting it.

b) I still think DH- Rishi is a big possible scumpair. If somehow my analysis in both of them is wrong, then I am almost 100% one of them is scum.

c) And then Spurgistan. Gosh, this guy is strange. If he hadnt posted this, I wouldnt have now this terrible headache:

Interesting, Cepi seems to be getting impatient. Yes, we need to lynch a scumlord today and tomorrow or the baddies lose. But why would a townie be so dead certain of a scum right now? We have to be looking for two, or we lose. Even if Rishi is scum (that's non-judgmental, btw; I actually like you as town, Rishi) we're going to have to scope out his partner if we want to pull this out. And yes, the fact that Rishi's hasn't been posting doesn't bode well for the town; but we can't afford to Lynch All Lurkers (not to mention people who haven't been able to make type for MafiaScum, as Rishi seems to be; trust me, people, it happen). But even if he is, getting all pissy at him without looking at who he could possibly be connected to doesn't get us anywhere day 3.

In this only paragraph, Spurgistan started to change in my scum radar, from protown to slighlty suspicious. Reasons?

1)He blatantly misreads my posts where I strongly suspected my two possible scumlords
2) What hes trying to do with Rishi? Why the support? Is it sincere?

So right now as I type this I'm thinkingthat Cepi is a likely scum for today. My personal theory would involve Xylthixlm being his partner, simply because of the antagonism they've had for each other all game. Crazy, say you? Like a fox, say I. Cepi is new to the game. This is indisputable, and if you are scum, Cepi, then you are really learning fast. But then there's Xylthixlm. He has been in on both bandwagons (Dean and Tenebrys), which of course I was too (as the Fun Facts pointed out) but I would like to highlight the Dean wagon, which he really just jumped all over page 2.

And then, he suspects the popular scumpair at the moment. After Rishi's post. When in his previous post, he wrote something like this:

Xyl, do you have anything to tie those pairings together? Seeing as how this is lylo, we should have a decent plan going forward before we start putting votes on. Additionally, I can't think of any reason why Rishi and cepi are anything like a scumpair. Separately, sure they haven't acquitted themselves well, but I don't see anything tying themselves together.

Oh wait... hmm...

The phrase in bold is something I extremely dislike. Is just there, kinda a Rishi fun fact. Its just there, waiting for someone to catch the suspicions, without too much involvement. Why didnt he develop his theory in his following post? Why did he post instead something totally different?

Spurg and DH are lurking, Rishi promised an analysis. Long D-2 indeed.

[spurgistan]

Finally out from under the iron thumb of exams, once I get back home I'll put some good facts in you