Mini Normal 1861: Musical Mafia (TOWN WIN)

[Naomi-Tan]

Now associative tells are cool and all but they require a flip

I think I just did an associative tell without a flip..

[Naomi-Tan]

That being said (as I've highlighted already) Saj is doing very little

That's kind of part of his meta on Day 1.

I assume you mean his town meta? How is his scum meta different?

As of this post, my top 3 scum reads are Jin, IO, & Newman.

How did i get lumped in your scumreads? Is there reasoning?

Cause I'm a good scum hunter and you are apparently bad as scum.

Can everybody take note of this when i flip Town? Lynch this with fire.

`

As they requested we take note I thought I'd repost.

[Naomi-Tan]

Io, ignoring that for now, what are your thoughts on the massive/Newman/Flub situation?

Well situation implies they are connected which they certainly aren't.

Newman's town but the scummiest of the group solely, not that he had other content, from the push that the only way Cloud could have been replaced is if he was Mafia hard bussing. His reason for the initial tunnel was also pretty trash with it just being that he claimed scum which no one should even take seriously. The other part of his scum read of Cloud that they were overly pushing the town slip was OK and a valid argument I think. The reason I think he's not scum pushing for 2 mislynches, as he's pushing to lynch both of you, is just because of how genuine he is in the push itself. He is stubborn, but not scum.

Flubber I just don't really know about to be honest. He shares no read with me, and was very quick to town read AJ who I think is scum. Leaning scum though which would make me think Massive is town because he's done a few quick jabs on him, 2 and the RVS.

Side note, I'm not even that confident you are town either. I'm getting the Aj & Culted scum team vibe with wither Mini or Flubber
Culted just really doesn't ever talk about AJ unless it was asking me to explain the AJ scum read, which Culted also said that other people asked so I don't see why Culted would have felt the need to talk about it. Then the only times he talked about you was at the very beginning asking for a read, something which I personally just notice a lot of scum do to partners they feel wont be too active or slightly scummy, then later on the talked about you and Flubber being TvT which is what is making me think one of you are scum. Culted is mostly a slight scum read for the lack of interactions with my stronger scum read and their overly nice behavior also just kind of feels disgenuine.
Honestly though I'm more confident that AJ and Culted are a scum team than you Mini. That's mostly because you're play style right now is basically mimicking how you played in 658, and it's not like I really disagree with you a ton. Though you and Culted do look pretty buddyey right now.

And yet your strong scum read has no explanation backing it and you haven't addressed your own blunder (the 'time traveler' issue). Your entire scum/town read is based on an idea that I'm scum, who you've yet to give a reason for in 400 in-game posts. Now associative tells are cool and all but they require a flip, and you're so very far off base to begin with that you've drawn up three additional possible scum reads with no flip and no stated reason on why you think I'm scum. You've already called out an entire group to lynch through, day 1, no flips on 'associative tells'.

Also your post serves to have another contradiction. In the first line, you state Newman is the scummiest of the group, but town. Then you state Flubber is scum, who was part of the three in the first group. Actually through your entire post, you waffle on this scum/town read on Flubber. You don't have a definitive opinion on him, and basically go from town to scum in all the shades of the rainbow in one post.

Lastly, burden of proof's on you to EXPLAIN some of this. You've got some reads that are unpopular. Really, as I've stated, this starts with you explaining why I'm scum, and then showing interactions if associative tells are really your only shows altogether.

I don't even know how to break up that post so I'll just do it in points.
"Haven't addressed why you are scum" - You lack reading comprehensions skills.
"Time traveler" - are you like high and making up terms right now?
"no stated reason on why you think I'm scum." - 'cuz you don't actually read any of my posts for some reason.
"In the first line, you state Newman is the scummiest of the group, but town." - Literally not a contradiction, you read the first line then stopped. If you would have bothered to continue reading you would have seen the explanation as to why he is bad and why the only scummy thing he did was tunnel.
"You don't have a definitive opinion on him" - Slight scum
"Lastly, burden of proof's on you to EXPLAIN some of this." - Which I did.
'You've got some reads that are unpopular." - That's not a reason to scum read that's called actually bothering to look at someone without just sheeping the crowd.
"Really, as I've stated, this starts with you explaining why I'm scum" - I did and you chose to ignore them.

Given this post I'm entirely sure I'm just being paranoia about AJ as he pulled a thing back here sorta like what happened now and I think its just more his 'style' than anything else.

[Naomi-Tan]

Read through the first 5 pages. More later.
When is the deadline?

ÀURGH.
how does it take someone 4 days to read 5 pages including the RVS section!

[Naomi-Tan]

Read through the first 5 pages. More later.
When is the deadline?

ÀURGH.
how does it take someone 4 days to read 5 pages including the RVS section!

Seriously like I read that in my first day at the end of the night and commented on some notable stuff AND comprised a preliminary read list! Omg..

[Naomi-Tan]

@MOD: Was shadow replaced for not playing into his win con too? I have to know seriously

[Aj The Epic]

1) How do we know they don't have an RB? Without any flips we have no way of knowing what scum do or don't have.

2) How is this beneficial to scum massive? He'd obviously prefer to produce a 'guilty' result on lylo to get a win.

3) If he waited past today it'd be lylo and it would become hard to believe. Scum could counterclaim and make it a 50/50 (and generally I'd say people will lynch the original claimaint rather than the counter)

But really why risk dying (given that he can't be sure we don't actually have an even cop) for the benefit of... clearing two people who weren't likely to be lynched today anyway. As you note there was no pressure.

1) We don't 'know' but if they did, they would've RB'd Newman N1 and forced him into some serious hot water. We can't even assume that 'oh it got jailkept' because they just straight shot newman instead.

2) No, in LYLO no one believes an unclaimed cop result with just one result in total. Gambit is risky here but completely garbage in LYLO.

3) You're investing pretty heavily on him being town to justify this argument. In case he was considering that, town!massive would have crumbed it earlier.

The substance of your 1) argument seems to be that it would be too townsided if massive were a cop. A Jailkeeper, and odd/even cops doesn't seem that strong to me. For comparison a recently finished Mini game had a jailkeeper, tracker, one shot bulletproof and a neighborizor. Scum had a one shot tracker and a one shot ninja to counter.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68714

Maybe I'm just underestimating the value of our roles or something but it seems like it would be balanced fine if mafia had a tracker or something to help them find the JK. Or maybe a strongman to shoot through it if the JK is protecting claimed cops.

That setup is actually far weaker than JK double off night cop. Tracker has pure counter in Ninja, JK has more chance to hit town PRs, neighborizor in general is a rather weak role because it relies on A) Neighborizor being townread and B) Neighborizior not hitting scum and getting influenced. Admittedly 1-shot Ninja isn't a great consistent counter but realize that a tracker is normally weaker than a cop (aka in that game it had a 1/12 chance of tracking the actual kill, where a cop has a 1/4 chance of finding scum in this size game).

My guess is if scum doesn't have a RB, they'll have a GF then. There's almost no case where scum doesn't have a pure counter to an investigative role and cops are countered by sanity, role block, Godfather, Miller... I think that's it. In Normals, I believe sanity isn't allowed, and I've already expressed why I'm confident RB doesn't exist. Miller proper play is to claim early.

Town also lost that game you pulled up, so it kinda reinforces my idea that the town was a bit weak. It was still stronger than the scum team, marginally, but Neighborizer has a potential negative utility to it.

I feel as though Naomi isn't telling the truth when she acts like she didn't know Neman/Grey/Jin were dead

Okay I dislike this comment for the following 2 reasons; Firstly The only person I didn't know was dead and included in my read lists was newman. Who was removed upon you pointing it out and the reason they was thought as alive was beacuse I copied the alive player list to my note pad and they haddn't been removed at the time (thus my comment)

Secondly you imply that I was including more dead people in my big read lists than I was.

I haven't replaced into a game but out of curiosity if you replaced into CK's spot and he was town... what would you say about his play?

A few issues I have specifically with this (because yeah, it's pretty common to be frustrated with a replace-in slot [see above: rarely ever viewed as protown]) is Naomi's claim that she does a lot of LAMIST. Yeah, we've seen that. However, CK did the same thing and when we're talking about an ahmished tell, I'd expect that part to bother her a lot less considering these two have very similar play in many aspects concerning how they carry themselves.

You may think our play styles are closer but that doesn't change the fact she did really dumb things. You'd have to be silly to think that her play wasn't bad. heck the mod replaced her for not playing to her wincon!

Do i look like i give a shit, antagonize me more now youre 1 lynch away to get owned all game gratz

Im pretty sure this needs to die.

Why are you town?

??? Only Newman?

P-edit: Shadow asked for replacement due to his own inactivity. However he did it at a bad time (kairal and I had an issue with his post around 950-1010 areas)

[Naomi-Tan]

Scum can be paranoid. They have to worry about looking town. If anything town aren't paranoid because you don't need to fake looking town.

I think this is a legit scumslip because town doesn't need to even think about looking town, let alone worry about how they can fake it.

Looking town is something that comes solely from a scum mindset.

Io basing their paranoia argument on looking town instead of reading scum is scum-driven.

VOTE: Io

I hope this isn't the day 1 flip train I'm seeing here. I disagree with greys use of semantics. but there both dead players. just thought I'd chime in here encase someone wanted to question me on it.

[Naomi-Tan]

Unless someone else wasn't removed from the players alive list that I am considering as alive still. yes. I've made comments on dead people if I feel there posts was imporant or bared repeating. but I have kept them out of read lists.


PEDIT: Oh I see what you did there. Yeah that was just me sharing my thoughts in that post. More content is never a bad thing, especially when it shows your thoughts.

[BlackVoid]

Vote Extension

so I can finish catching up. How many do we have so far?

[Naomi-Tan]

5/6 Extensions (Me, Kairal, AJ, IaI, Black Void)

They argument is entirely weak, but I'm totally holding the fact massive and cult didn't vote extension against them. (My reads remain unchanged on them both.)

[Naomi-Tan]

Im just gonna put this out there as Im thinking it right now; this game entirely hinges on me and flubbs. If flubbs is Town then my push so far today will result in my misslynch in Lylo I believe. and If i'm killed today Flubbs will be the next logical lynch choice. So if flubbs is green I think the red team has won.

[Naomi-Tan]

[quote="In post 663, massive"]My new favorite Mafia phrase is "adjacent reasoning."[/quote
whats adjacent reasoning

[Naomi-Tan]

I think i'll take a break again on top of page 28.

[massive]

AJ: Does my immediate vote for Newman's claim of "cop" not count as a crumb? Granted, I voted because I actually didn't figure there was an odd cop (seems oddly balanced, and Newman was claiming straight cop) but that on D1 should at least be somewhat telling.

[Aj The Epic]

Quote it, I don't recall it.

[Flubbernugget]

Okay I'm catching up

Aj, you said you wanted to start looking at me after massives claim and then proceded to start looking elsewhere. Why is that?

Karial, why do you suggest Naomi could still be scum who was cleared by massive without dismissing massives claim?

UNVOTE: massive

[Flubbernugget]

Finished the first seven pages. Kairal and Flubbernugget are townreads. Naomi's slot and AJ are scumreads. I also don't buy massive's claim. Even night cop and odd night cop together are too convenient and I'm not sure why everyone else is. It's far more overpowered than a regular cop because that would be two additional people that the scum need to kill other than the confirmed innocents. I also don't think odd-night cop, even-night cop, and JK all exist in the game.

Today is the day before lylo (in the event we mislynch). So, we should mass-claim. I also think having confirmed town decide the order is optimal strategy not to mention more efficient. I think we should go in the order of Naomi -> AJ -> Dierfire/Culted/IAI -> Kairal -> Flubbernugget.

I reflected your sentiments wrt to the balance of this setup but there's a similar one in the normal queue that just made it to completion so meh

[Kairal]

Sorry can you quote the post where I say that? I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. massive cleared BV not Naomi.

[Kairal]

Ok this is getting ridiculous.

AJ do you agree that in order for massive to claim this he has to know he won't be countered? If so how can be sure that there actually isn't an even cop but that we will believe there is one? If he can't be sure why is he pulling a high risk gambit?

Provide a satisfactory answer for these questions and I'm perfectly happy to entertain the idea that massive is scum. However the more you string this suspicioun out without good answers the scummier it looks.

[Kairal]

@IamI : Right now there are 9 people alive so we need 5 to lynch. Assuming 3 scum and no bussing that means our only chance of getting a scum lynch is for 5/6 town to agree on someone. Right now massive is tunneling on me which means we need every remaining vote to get scum. Please don't waste your vote on Dier since nobody else is scum reading him.

[Kairal]

I think the other thing that REALLY irritates me about the flubbs // massive thing is how flubbs had their vote on massive all of Day 1 (or at least upto where I am located) and had multiple oppertunities to push what they felt was there red read (if their green and massive is either alignment) but didn't. but also they didn't push there miss lynch, (if their red and massive is green) Which leads me to the odd conclusion that they know each others alignments.

Okay Let me make this a bit clearer by running threw all 4 situations

• [Green Flubs, Green Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Green Flubs, Red Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Red Flubs, Green Massive] Wanting a miss lynch they push whenever they think they can get away with it. pushing softly and edging them out.

•[Red Flubs, Red Massive] Voting them for distance but not really putting heart into lynching them as you want them alive.

The thing is that we never got a scum anywhere near a lynch Day 1. Scum don't need to push hard (and are gonna look bad on the flip if they do). I don't think Flubs play day 1 was inconsistent with your third scenario

[massive]

VOTE: Newman

VOTE: Newman

Can you explain why you voted Hello here after his cop claim?

I did not believe his claim.

---

There's an awful lot of "I would vote massive again today but oh how wrong my reads were yesterday" going on.

[Aj The Epic]

Ok this is getting ridiculous.

AJ do you agree that in order for massive to claim this he has to know he won't be countered? If so how can be sure that there actually isn't an even cop but that we will believe there is one? If he can't be sure why is he pulling a high risk gambit?

Provide a satisfactory answer for these questions and I'm perfectly happy to entertain the idea that massive is scum. However the more you string this suspicioun out without good answers the scummier it looks.

Without a good answer? With you judging? May I point out that I've given you plenty of reasoning above that you just blatantly ignored. For what it's worth I doubt scum would go after a claimed cop, especially one that has so very little chance of ever getting another result.

Massive makes the claim as scum with two reasons: He feels his lynch is inevitable (be it today or tomorrow) and scum don't have a role that counters a cop. As stated before, there's 0 reason scum wouldn't have roles to counter a cop in the event of their being two cops. If they don't have that, it's an easy claim to make.

I think the other thing that REALLY irritates me about the flubbs // massive thing is how flubbs had their vote on massive all of Day 1 (or at least upto where I am located) and had multiple oppertunities to push what they felt was there red read (if their green and massive is either alignment) but didn't. but also they didn't push there miss lynch, (if their red and massive is green) Which leads me to the odd conclusion that they know each others alignments.

Okay Let me make this a bit clearer by running threw all 4 situations

• [Green Flubs, Green Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Green Flubs, Red Massive] Not knowing the alignment of massive and thinking there red, they would pick up and push things as they happen with the rest of Green

•[Red Flubs, Green Massive] Wanting a miss lynch they push whenever they think they can get away with it. pushing softly and edging them out.

•[Red Flubs, Red Massive] Voting them for distance but not really putting heart into lynching them as you want them alive.

The thing is that we never got a scum anywhere near a lynch Day 1. Scum don't need to push hard (and are gonna look bad on the flip if they do). I don't think Flubs play day 1 was inconsistent with your third scenario

You're either far too confident on massive being town or you have additional information.

P-edit: I don't get how that's a crumb. If you're an even-night cop, wouldn't you be more inclined to believe it?

[Kairal]

I mean I was trying to cut to what I feel is the heart of the argument. Does it seem to you like a massive lynch was inevitable? Certainly not today. If he were scum then he can push at least 2 of me, Naomi, culted and Flubber- that's enough to get over the line and all 4 have attracted some suspicion. He really doesn't need to pull a high risk gambit.

Also I mentioned before we don't know if scum have a roleblocker. Remember in Night 1 we have 1) a claimed cop, 2) a claimed Jk/BP. The obvious play here is to kill the cop and roleblock the JK. This stops him from keeping the cop alive. Now Grey never mentioned it but remember he was trying to pretend he might be BP and a BP wouldn't know about the roleblock.

Also your answer to 2) directly contradicts your reasoning for 3). massive had to reveal today because as you say nobody is going to believe a single investigation high scum read cop claim in lylo.

Ultimately what do you want to gain from this? Do you want to lynch massive today? because if you don't this is a waste of time we can't afford. We have very little time to reach a consensus even if we do get an extension.