Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[Gorgon]

And oh, another thing.

What happened to this question?

I do admit I've been ignoring TSQ. I'm not going to answer his questions about my observcations today because well, it's day one of a day start game where we know EVERYONE'S power, I'd rather not blow my load yet. I think we need a night of activities before we can make a legitimate attempt at locating our resident scums.

As per what I said above, I believe that day 1 discussion is useful, even in this game, seeing that everyone's alive and all. What exactly, in your opinion, is the potential harm in this?

Answer: That question hasn't been answered yet.

[curiouskarmadog]

I am curious why you didnt FoS or address ZA's no lynch until now

[shaft.ed]

then why is he asking the same damn question like he didn't the post? I explained why i voted No lynch, when i did so. Those are reasons, i have no others. would he like me now to make up something?

Actually what I'd like to know is why you are pushing for a No Lynch so quickly? If you had read my post you may have been able to notice that, so you may take your own advice in reading the thread. If you'd rather been an asshole than actually answer anybody's posts that's your perogative, but I do view such activity as a detriment to the town because it a) seems as though you are trying to have limited positions on record for which you may make a slip up and b) if you are in fact town it distracts from scummy behavior (at least to me, your playstyle might help draw it out I don't know).

[ZONEACE]

you make it sound like im trying to end the day in the next half hour.

which isn't the case.

i voted no lynch cause thats what i feel is the best choice for today.

[Gorgon]

please explain to me how wavering means mixing up words.

I already did, kinda - except that wasn't what I was saying. My initial suspicion was based on the assumption that it was not a mixup of words, but a mixup of what exactly you wanted to accuse mathcam of. But fine, I've accepted now that it was probably just a matter of you getting the terms mixed up - this was a big part of the reason I saw fit to move my vote off of you.

you provided two examples of me voting then unvoting and said I was wavering..

why are you backtracking now?

No, actually, I provided one example of you voting and then unvoting, and one example of you voting and downgrading to a FOS. Perhaps I should have explained the latter better. I will do so now, then. Downgrading your vote to a FOS seems a little pointless to me. Why not leave the vote until you find a better candidate for your vote? There's no harm in that. However, downgrading to a FOS could be construed as a way of coming off as a nice, towny guy who doesn't want to offend.

Neither of those were major points against you, dude ... certainly nothing earth-shattering. I voted partly to test the reaction, as one tends to do. For the record, I find that reaction to be extremely defensive and paranoid. Not that that's a scumtell, necessarily. In fact, you were very defensive and paranoid in both of the games I've played with you so far, and you were town in both.

I FoSed ZA because I think he is being slightly scummy and if there was a choice between a no lynch and voting ZA he will get my vote.

Fair enough, I guess.

so my FoS on Za was enough for you to vote him? ZA voted for a no lynch way before you voted me...so this makes

that is not correct...ZA voted for a no lynch AFTER you voted me....

No, his no lynch vote was enough for me to vote him, and yes, it happened after I voted you. As I already explained, the reason why I didn't vote him straight away was that I was waiting on you to react to my vote first. Again I ask, was that unreasonable/scummy of me?

I am curious why you didnt FoS or address ZA's no lynch until now

Now? As in back in post 235, my very first post after ZA voted no lynch?

you make it sound like im trying to end the day in the next half hour.

which isn't the case.

i voted no lynch cause thats what i feel is the best choice for today.

Well, judging from what I quoted of yours in my last post, it looks like you were saying that you didn't want to contribute much to the discussion today, which pretty much boils down to you wanting a no lynch without any further ado. Amirite?

And there you have the main reason why my vote is on you.

[Gorgon]

Hold on though ...

But I will state up front I am reluctant to lynch Zoneace today simply based on his role. Stringing up a known tracker D1 would be a big gain for scum if he is in fact town aligned.

This is actually a very good point. ZA's role could also explain why he's reluctant to express his suspicions. Then again ... what if he's scum using his role as a cover? Ugh. Smalltown certainly is different.

I still believe, regardless of people's roles, that a decent amount of day 1 discussion is vital, though.

[Thestatusquo]

Mathcam, I'm sorry if you think that. If you really think that "cold and calculating" describes me as a player, than you haven't meta'd me particularly well. I will say it right now, I don't have the linguistic skills to "be careful about my words" to make myself seem like the victim when I am in fact the antagonizer.

My general strategy with players I don't like is not to antagonize them, it's to request replacement, which is something I'm very close to doing right now. I've been playing this game completely in earnest and have not been bringing OOG feelings into it. I don't understand how the fact that I don't like zoneace personally means I necessarily can't find him legitimately scummy. If it gets to that point, then I really don't think I can play this game anymore. Giving someone a carteblanche merely because the person thats attacking them has negative history with them...Well that just defeats the entire purpose of playing this game.

[mathcam]

I think you interpreted that post much more aggressively than I intended it -- "cold and calculating" is at least a step or two beyond what I intended. I just think you knew that if you poked ZONEACE a couple of times, even in jest, that he would probably blow up. If you hadn't figured that out in the multiple threads you've interacted with him in, then I think it's you that's meta'd incorrectly. I also think you're being overly modest about your linguistic competence. Finally, I never said you couldn't find ZONEACE scummy, that you should give him a carte blanche, or even that he didn't currently deserve it.

Cam

[Thestatusquo]

Well, the point wasn't that I didn't know he's react this way; I did. The point was that I saw him do/say things which I believed legitimately deserved attention, so I pointed them out. Then, he completely ignored me, which I felt deserved even more attention. I guess what I'm asking you is, to what extend am I supposed to ignore his scummy behavior just because I know that he's going to get angry for no reason?

[davidangelsummers]

The problem I have is this:
I see were Zone is coming from about the No Lynch, if he’s town but if we were to all take his stance and keep stum then it would be a pretty crap day 1. Im going to

FOS

for today and have another think tomorrow. As you can see he’s not going to t be drawn in to an argument no matter how hard some players try. I can’t see him slipping up and I think it’s a bad idea to lynch his role with the info we have. Which brings me on to TSQ, if Zone answers your questions tomorrow will you stop throwing needless insults at him? Just a thought…I do find it very weird he did not retaliate having just played a game with him though hence another reason for the FOS .
Im not going to vote Nolynch now. (Though there is room\time for me to be convinced). I don’t like the idea of SK and scum getting a free ride. I would rather apply some pressure and see what happens
Gordon, my other

FOS

goes on you. I think you have changed your mind too quickly to many times. You have had strong feelings about votes and other people’s reasons for reducing their vote and then you change your mind. Im not sure how helpful your roll is to town when compared to Zone. Please enlighten me...

[curiouskarmadog]

gordon, my other

FOS

goes on you. I think you have changed your mind too quickly to many times. You have had strong feelings about votes and other people’s reasons for reducing their vote and then you change your mind. Im not sure how helpful your roll is to town when compared to Zone. Please enlighten me...

Technically I have "changed my mind" more than Gorgon, DaS, thoughts?

[davidangelsummers]

gordon, my other

FOS

goes on you. I think you have changed your mind too quickly to many times. You have had strong feelings about votes and other people’s reasons for reducing their vote and then you change your mind. Im not sure how helpful your roll is to town when compared to Zone. Please enlighten me...

Technically I have "changed my mind" more than Gorgon, DaS, thoughts?

I suppose your right, if im to apply the same lodgic you should get a

FOS

but your vote is on Gordon and if I had the choice of losing either role it would be his. Now if it was a choice between yours and Zace that might be different. What did you want to hear?

[YvonneSeer]

I suppose your right, if im to apply the same lodgic you should get a FOS but your vote is on Gordon and if I had the choice of losing either role it would be his. Now if it was a choice between yours and Zace that might be different. What did you want to hear?

Hold on there, david, what exactly do you mean when you say you'd rather lose Gorgon than CKD based on their roles. That doesn't sound right. We should be lynching based on scumminess, not on usefulness of roles. Also, it's almost as if you're FoSing players just for the sake of FoSing.

I don't like that at all.

FoS david

.

[mathcam]

I guess what I'm asking you is, to what extend am I supposed to ignore his scummy behavior just because I know that he's going to get angry for no reason?

None at all. In fact, you may even deserve credit for extracting some of it. My point was only that it seemed naive for you to claim "You know, just because I don't like you doesn't mean I am bringing that into the game." In fact, the next two quotes seem downright contradictory:

Well, the point wasn't that I didn't know he's react this way; I did.

My general strategy with players I don't like is not to antagonize them,

In any case, I'm not accusing you of anything except perhaps being unaware of how out-of-game feelings got sucked in to the game. There are probably more important issues to discuss at this point.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, now an actualy content post:

Hold on there, david, what exactly do you mean when you say you'd rather lose Gorgon than CKD based on their roles. That doesn't sound right. We should be lynching based on scumminess, not on usefulness of roles.

What do you mean "should be"? Our job is to make the best lynch possible, not follow some ideals of the proper way of conducting business. If it's a better play to lynch someone because of their role, then that's what we have to do. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case in this particular situation, but it's not something to be ruled out either.

On a separate note, I'm generally against lynching based on the number of time a vote has been switched. I don't find it particularly scummy -- first of all, it's high profile, and second of all, it reflects the townie's plight of not knowing who scum are (which contrasts to the scum position of knowing who non-scum are and just pretending not to know scum). Vote-switching is frequently just a sign of uncertainty, something which townies should have a lot of.

Cam

[davidangelsummers]

I suppose your right, if im to apply the same lodgic you should get a FOS but your vote is on Gordon and if I had the choice of losing either role it would be his. Now if it was a choice between yours and Zace that might be different. What did you want to hear?

Hold on there, david, what exactly do you mean when you say you'd rather lose Gorgon than CKD based on their roles. That doesn't sound right. We should be lynching based on scumminess, not on usefulness of roles. Also, it's almost as if you're FoSing players just for the sake of FoSing.

I don't like that at all.

FoS david

.

nah, just if I had the choice. I didnt say I wanted them lynched but if say half the town wanted X and the other town wanted Y then I would choose based on the role yes..In this game even if the person is scum the role could be used for good...and I dont think anyone has been that scummy yet, hense the no vote or Lynch
I will give my reasons for the 3 FOSes
1) Zoneace wants to keep his cards close and not give anything away..Well thats great but I need info in day as Im unable to talk at night..(not saying he can) plus in other games his temper is a little short but not now...due to his role I would rather not see him lynched

today

2) Gorgon: has changed his mind

strongly

in quick succession ...If he felt so strongly then why not think it over more..Im not sure if it was that strong in the first place.
3) CKD: as he pointed out, he has also changed his mind ( more so apperntly ) I thought...good point..

Also, it's almost as if you're FoSing players just for the sake of FoSing.

I was just trying to add something to the game rather then sit back. soz

[YvonneSeer]

What do you mean "should be"? Our job is to make the best lynch possible, not follow some ideals of the proper way of conducting business. If it's a better play to lynch someone because of their role, then that's what we have to do. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case in this particular situation, but it's not something to be ruled out either.

No, david implied that Gorgon's role was less useful than CKD's and therefore more comfortable with lynching him. I don't believe that it's better play to lynch roles who are less useful, and that's why I questioned david's motives.

[YvonneSeer]

Oops, simulpost.

Sorry david, I wasn't actually doubting your sincerity to contribute but rather I thought you were throwing your FoSes in a lot of directions.

And regarding the lynching based on roles, I disagree with you. If I were in the scenario you just described, I would have no qualms about lynching the more useful role if I personally feel he/she was scummier than the less useful role.

[shaft.ed]

-Zoneace, thanks for the clarification. If you could make an argument as to why you think it's more important to keep power roles around than to garner lynching information that'd be nice.

-TSQ, please don't talk about replacing out just for personal conflict reasons. This game should have very low replacement levels based on the pre-game interest. (It's not our fault you picked Ando)

-Yvonne, I think disregarding pro-town utility vs anti-town utility of roles when considering a lynch is detrimental to the town, especially on D1. I would be much happier to know that we are eliminating a major threat even if we mislynch, than going for the scummier player. Especially since D1 lynches are much less likely to hit scum than after we've gotten some momentum in the game. But in my mind Gorgon and CKD's roles are pretty equal in town value. While HRG would be more dangerous if scum aligned, he's more helpful is town aligned as he's the only targetable anti-Sylar device and the only roleblocker that can stop mafia NK's.

-DAS, could you address Matchcam's point about players changing their minds often. I agree with him especially in this early stage of the game.

On a separate note, I'm generally against lynching based on the number of time a vote has been switched. I don't find it particularly scummy -- first of all, it's high profile, and second of all, it reflects the townie's plight of not knowing who scum are (which contrasts to the scum position of knowing who non-scum are and just pretending not to know scum). Vote-switching is frequently just a sign of uncertainty, something which townies should have a lot of.

Finally I still think Oman's play has been the most scummy. I really don't understand his reluctance to pass on investigative roles to Adele. He hasn't explained it any more than "we can't trust anyone" and I find this stance to be antitown. He also had the redirecting Doc to target himself incident, survey of what use of his powers would be acceptable, and was quite quick to proclaim his town alignment.

[curiouskarmadog]

not that it matters because I dont think we should be lynching due to powers..The big difference is I dont have a "power" thus it can be stolen...at least that is how I read it.

[ZONEACE]

-Zoneace, thanks for the clarification. If you could make an argument as to why you think it's more important to keep power roles around than to garner lynching information that'd be nice.

Its day one, what sort of useful lynching info are you expecting to get? In my experience, day one is more about wild speculation, based on NOTHING. that's all well in good in a closed format, or even an open format, but this format is different guys, WE KNOW THE POWER WE'RE LYNCHING, in other formats day 1 you have no clue and therefore no reason to expect you're voting for a doc or a cop or a RB so baseless speculation is less damaging, but here baseless speculation will cause us to lose someone important guranteed. We can prevent that, allow night actions to happen, and go from there tomorrow, with some REAL information.


as for people saying im scummy cause Im not blwoing my top, well Im make a genuine effort to stay cool, mostly as an attempt to spite shea and not give him what he wants (me red in face and fighting about something stupid) but also because i realize when i get heated it is detrimental to the game.

[shaft.ed]

-Zoneace, thanks for the clarification. If you could make an argument as to why you think it's more important to keep power roles around than to garner lynching information that'd be nice.

Its day one, what sort of useful lynching info are you expecting to get? In my experience, day one is more about wild speculation, based on NOTHING. that's all well in good in a closed format, or even an open format, but this format is different guys, WE KNOW THE POWER WE'RE LYNCHING, in other formats day 1 you have no clue and therefore no reason to expect you're voting for a doc or a cop or a RB so baseless speculation is less damaging, but here baseless speculation will cause us to lose someone important guranteed. We can prevent that, allow night actions to happen, and go from there tomorrow, with some REAL information.

I've got to go read the other Smalltowns to see how the mechanics generally effect lynching and night actions, but even if you are worried about losing powers there are people that can be at the very least pressured since they are either non-useful to the town, or much more detrimental as scum than useful if town. Below I've ranked player roles as I feel they are dangerous-helpful to the town form top to bottom. I personally would be OK lynching anyone Anti-town to Neutral today and would consider lynching players that are slightly pro-town if they are scummy enough, but I don't think I will consider lynching anyone in the Pro-town category today. I might consider a No-Lynch depending on the days activities and my reads of previous smalltowns, but as of now I don't think it is the optimal strategy.

Oman:

The only major pro-town use I could think of with his power is being able to redirect the Doc to himself, but the mafia kill comes in before the Doc protection anyway so this is moot. This re-direction could potentially wreak all kinds of havoc on investigative roles.

Rank Anti-town.

JDodge:

The only pro-town use of this role I could think of was keeping Oman in check, or blocking me from aiding scum powers like Oman's if we were aligned. However, there are a lot of anti-town things he can do with his powers, and he is inherently untrackable.

Rank Anti-Town.

Mathcam:

If town aligned could create a one to one trade for a mafia player with his suicide vig'ing power, but has the potential of taking out two townies if he is wrong. If anti-town very likely to take a townie with him as a lynch nears.

Rank Slightly Anti-Town.

TSQ:

We know he's vanilla so there's no loss of a power role.

Rank Neutral.

Zindaras:

I don't see how Mohinder's networking could be incredibly useful to town or scum, I'd rank this just above vanilla.

Rank Neutral.

CKD:

While very useful to the town as an Anti-Sylar device, I think if scum aligned CKD can make pro-town roles inoperable "for their own safety."

Rank Slightly Pro-Town.

Me:

Basically an extra investigation/Doc protection for the town if myself and the target both survive the night. Could wreak extra havoc if aligned with Oman.

Rank Slightly Pro-Town.

Gorgon:

A 50% NK immune player. I don't think he's that useful to the town since he's unlikely to draw much mafia fire at night unless they can ascertain his phase. This will make him a non-target for them. Thus he will push NK's to other more informative players. But if he is town, could be very helpful towards end game if he buys the town an extra night. If scum aligned only prevents cross-kills not sure this makes a big difference either way.

Rank Slightly Pro-Town.

Adele:

A depository of useful town power roles if town alighned. Can also become an extra independent investigator/Doc starting N2. Only useful antitown if receiving Oman's power.

Rank Pro-Town.

DAS:

A Doc that only prevents mafia kills. Night action also only has effect if he survives the night (probably not a big deal since Sylar is unlikely to target him).

Rank Pro-Town.

Zoneace:

Tracker one of two investigative roles. We have two scum groups so they will be interested in at least pinning down the other scum in early game. However, role can be used as a way to gain town trust and to avoid lynch for a period of time.

Rank Pro-town.

YvonneSeer:

Watcher, same summary as Zoneace.

Rank Pro-town.

[ZONEACE]

Ok the point im trying to make and clearly failing at so far is there is no point in pressuring ANYONE today. The reason we try to lynch people day one in other games is because we have NO GURANTEE of information come day 2 and we have to start somewhere. In this game, we have a gurantee. The power roles are already known to EVERYONE. they don't have to worry about coming forward day 2 with their results and their targets fearing the mafia will kill them. in this game everyone is equally vulnerable to mafia attack cause we already know who has what power and that almost everyone has a power. If we end the day we get to the night when we can be the most useful to the town (at least at this point in the game) and then get to day with everyone revealing all their info.


each of us will far more useful tomorrow. anything we do today is just a result of pulling things out of our collective, ignorant asses.

[Gorgon]

I kinda agree with ZA here. He makes a good point. There's plenty of info out there already that can be applied tomorrow, in addition to the results of night actions.

I'm going to parrot shaft.ed and dig up some old Smalltown games myself to see how the issue of the day 1 lynch has been resolved in those.

Nice analysis of the roles from shaft.ed, btw. It seems pretty spot-on.

One issue that springs to mind, though, is the possibility of ckd locking up the investigative roles if he's scum. I'm not so sure that's a viable option for him. I don't know if this has been discussed, but I guess that the people he locks up are informed of this - at least that would fit the flavour. If he goes around locking up protown roles, he will need to answer to that, and I don't think that "I was doing it to protect them" would be a viable defense, since there's a doctor out there who could do a better job of it, without crippling their powers.

[curiouskarmadog]

noted:
Gorgon agrees with ZA, but keeps vote on him.

noted:
Gorgon is passive aggressively telling me who I should target and who I shouldnt target. Dont worry, most likely I will not use my "power" to protect..as you say we have doctor for that...I am going to target who i think is scum...if you have a problem with that...maybe you need to "answer for that"...