Mafia 72: Peril in Panama - Game over!

[Battle Mage]

i'm disappointed with Jordan's analysis of Porochaz.

Will post more later hopefully.

BM

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm still trying to figure out why Jordan has me as one of his top suspects. Where's the case for it? The fact that I've made more useful posts than several of the other people he's analyzed makes me scummy just because I have filler posts rather than just not posting anything in between?

[Dragon Phoenix]

Mod, at this pace the game will be finished by Christmas. 2008. How about a deadline?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod is on limited access.

[Porochaz]

i'm disappointed with Jordan's analysis of Porochaz.

Will post more later hopefully.

BM

What about Jordans analysis of everyone else?

[curiouskarmadog]

i'm disappointed with Jordan's analysis of Porochaz.

Will post more later hopefully.

BM

What about Jordans analysis of everyone else?

like you and Nekka for instance.

[Aimee]

Okays: vollkan replaces Kakeng, and Lowell replaces richman99.

I am now finding a replacement for mandalorian.

Also, a deadline will be put in place after all replacements have been found.

[Battle Mage]

i'm disappointed with Jordan's analysis of Porochaz.

Will post more later hopefully.

BM

What about Jordans analysis of everyone else?

like you and Nekka for instance.

Well his analysis of me was a little OMGUSsy and he obv doesnt have an awesome meta of MoS-BM. Other than that, pretty detailed though.

BM

[vollkan]

Hello everyone. I will reread the thread and post my "rough notes" as I go through things. Then at the end, I will summarise my thoughts.

Page 1

Randomness

Page 2

Unright's statement about townies making scummy joke votes doesn't really seem particularly telling to me, though my assumption is that Jordan's vote for unright on that basis is just pressuring. Same with CKD's vote. DP places a major FoS on those voting Unright - justifiable, though they aren't really "scummy", more just that they don't have a proper voting basis (again, I'm going by its appearance as an early pressure wagon). BM places a weird vote on Jordan for bandwagoning - Jordan was the first to vote and, moreover, two votes is not a bandwagon worthy of suspicion (despite having taken the same view as CKD had expressed). Unright doesn't think the voting is necessarily serious and then votes BM for his messy attack on Jordan. CKD makes a good point about Unright putting words into ABR's mouth and votes, with ABR qft-ing and also voting Unright.

Page 3

DP is fine with lynching any of the self-voters - I don't like this. Jordan and ABR voting for DP is reasonable. MoS thinks Jordan is "stretching" because it is never to early to be serious about lynching - I disagree, since lynching one of the self-voters, regardless of the amount of justification, would short-change us in terms of information for D1. ABR FoSes and then votes MoS. MoS explains that DP has a meta for this, in which case MoS's response to the votes on DP makes sense. BM deflects a point about him accusing of BWing by joking about grammar - this I do not like. He then attacks unright, calling him "blatant scum" and of buddying up to ABR. This echoes other people's attacks on unright. BM again deflects with a personal attack on ABR.

Page 4

MoS, ABR and Gage rightly criticise BM for the "blatant scum" thing. BM and Unright argue, with BM taking the same line as CKD against Unright. Unright then admits that he misconstrued ABR. DP makes a large post analysing everyone and concludes that ABR is scummiest. He makes his "scummy" category very broad, but refuses to refine it. ABR points out an apparent double-standard between DP's treatment of BM and ABR. I see his point, but DP did seem to be metaing BM.

Page 5

As I thought, DP puts the difference to meta knowledge. People attest to ABR playing to form. Unright refuses to accept playstyle excuses. Attacks gage for not scumhunting. He thinks BM, unright and MoS are dodgy...*headdesks* and seems to hint at mason Aside from the fact that he was not under pressure of lynch, a pseudo-claim is just ridiculous.

Page 6

What the fuck?! - He claims mason because it will "confirm" his partner, it is better than the cop or doc and town wins even if he's dead. ABR thinks it is a scum gambit. Unright says his vote for gage remains until "partner clears you or someone else somehow manages to act more scummy." This implicitly consents to a SECOND mason claim and I do not like this. Jordan makes a sensible analysis and ends with a FoS. DP is confused (rightly). I agree with the sentiment of the complaining about the SAers *grumbles*

Page 7

I am amused by the discussion on religion but will resist the tremendous urge to comment. Mandalorian thinks the logic of gage's claim is screwed up, sensibly. Gage says his mason buddy is bussing Idiot...if he is bussing that probably means you should not identify that fact because he might be trying to salvage his identity to make use of the safe claim, the only thing left now that you have outed yourself. DP votes gage. ABR claims mason and calls Unright out as scum - I think this is a reasonable suggestion; he's at least a reasonable contender at this stage of things.

Page 8

Gage makes a surrendering post based on his play. BM votes gage. CKD votes BM for voting a claimed mason. BM unvotes, realising his vote was ridiculous. BM makes a dodgy thing about cop direction, just to save face is my guess. Jordan obviously skimmed, but he seems to be thinking right.

Page 9

BM votes gage again?! Jordan votes BM. BM asks why scum would repeatedly vote the claimed mason. BM then gets put to L-1. I agree with DP - BM is being dopey as all hell wrt the votes, but I don't know if this particular incident is really all that scummy. Jordan votes ABR, making the same error as BM.

Page 10

BM PBPAs people. Thinks Nekka is probably pro-town for sound reasons, MoS is slightly pro-town (seems to be just because he hasn't posted enough to look scummy), thinks mandalorian is newby town (again, hasn't said much), and is neutral on CKD.

Page 11

Unright thinks that seeing BM as scummy depends on injecting wifom. I disagree, since BM could easily have screwed up in the voting as a scum. That isn't to say that I think he is scummy for the votes, just that I don't think it is a town-tell. Whilst people tend to be more careful as scum, I don't think that it is really a wifom. CKD gets points for realising this. MoS thinks it is a null-tell. BM moves MoS to pro-town for the accurate meta - this is being overly generous with townie brownies. CKD, sensibly, doesn't buy this.

Page 12

ABR agrees with CKD. BM argues that the fact MoS is metaing accurately (I agree that he is) and is not twisting it against him is a town-tell - still being overly-generous. Defending people as scum is one of the easiest ways to get people on side if you seem sincere, so I am always very skeptical of such supposed "town-tells". Jordan points out a bogus contradiction from CKD - I call it bogus because he suggests there is some inconsistency with CKD unvoting BM and CKD asking pete d why he thinks BM is OK. Jordan thinks DP is scummy - whilst DP hadn't jumped out to me, I think Jordan's points are valid.

Page 13

ABR comes back with an unexplained vote for Jordan. Pete D casts a weird explained vote for Nekka - I don't see why Nekka's redundant question is scummy. I am more skeptical than Jordan who thinks unright keeping his vote on gage is a towntell. Pete D puts his vote to previous FoS reasons which he reminds Jordan that Jordan agreed with.

Okay, now thoughts on each player. As usual, I will give each player a rating from 0% = total guaranteed town to 100% = obv scum. All people are at 50% by default.

1. Battle Mage

As you'll see from my notes, a number of instances occur where I find BM's behaviour weird (chiefly the early Jordan BW vote and the "blatant scum" thing). I disagree that BM's voting for gage is a towntell. 65%

2. mandalorian

Not enough for me to get a read on. Seems like a newb. 50%

3. Gage

Strikes me as a clear newb. His mason claims makes me cringe. 0% due to claimed status, but his behaviour is 55%.

4. Unright

Misrepresented ABR early on. I really did not like his subtle fishing for a partner claim. I also take issue with his belief that thinking BM as scum relies on WIFOM. 60%

5. Nekka-Lucifer

Very short posts and much noise with little to no quality analysis. This merits a 60%.

6. Kakeng (now me)

Only game related post was a jokey No Lynch call. 0%.

7. JordanA24

A good amount of analysis without much noise. Not necessarily a town tell in my eyes, but always a promising start. My only issue was with the dodgy contradiction. 50%.

8. richman99

Total lurker. 50%.

9. Mastermind of Sin

Seems rather short on full analysis. Little to go by in terms of an assessment. 55%.

10. Dragon Phoenix

He never really stuck out to me on my immediate read, but Jordan's analysis of him raised some valid questions. 55%.

11. curiouskarmadog

I have no issues here, since I find myself in agreement with him on most of the matters I look at above. 50%

12. Porochaz

Very little content despite a fair few posts. 55%

13. pete d (replacing Sir Tornado)

He is forming opinions about who he would vote for, but most of his arguments seem rather ambivalent. Everything he discusses he describes as that it "seems" a certain way, rather than actually being scummy. For ambivalence, 60%

14. Albert B. Rampage

Same thing as CKD. 0% due to claim. 50% on behaviour.

To rank according to %:

BM
unright
pete d
Nekka
Porochaz
MoS
DP
CKD
Lowell (nee richman)
Jordan
mandalorian
gage
ABR
vollkan

[Lowell]

I'm here. Likely to do what vollkan just did. Soon enough.

[Lowell]

Here we go... cut and paste... POW!

1-33- nothing happens
34- jordan votes Unright for calling ppl "townies"
36- ckg votes unright
40- BM votes jordan for being a follower
45- Unright votes BM, despite BM having his back on this one [townish]
47- ABR votes Unright
53- Jordan switches vote to Dragon Phoenix
54- ABR follows
58- MoS votes Jordan
61- ABR votes MoS
68-74- meta-argument between ABR and BM
86- post analysis from Unright
90- DP runs through all players, votes ABR
99- porochaz appears, votes DP [lazy or scummy]
112- DP unvotes ABR, votes Jordan
117- Gage unvotes, complains game is too slow, called out for doing nothing
120- unright votes gage for being useless [opportunistic, a bit]
122- gage posts, hints at verifiable roleclaim
124- Nekka asks for clarification of roleclaim
130-131- ABR and Unright doubt claim, agree on Gage scummy
136- Jordan FOSs gage
138- DP points out gage probably not scum claiming with so little pressure [true]
160- mandalorian doesn't believe claim
162- gage claims his mason buddy is bussing
163- DP votes gage
168- ABR claims mason, confirms gage
190- mandolin votes BM for voting gage
196- gage votes BM for same reason, BM explains he didn't read [believable]
198- Jordan goes apeshit on masons*
202- DP unvotes Jordan [why?]*
204- BM AGAIN accidentally votes for claimed mason
205- Jordan votes BM for dumbness
209- porochaz votes BM [opportunistic]
210- ABR votes BM
212- ABR asks for BM claim
215- DP defends BM, doesn't hammer
216- Jordan unvotes BM, votes ABR for asking for claim* [curious...]
226- BM begins post-by-post analysis of players
249- MoS takes BM's side
256- ckd unvotes BM at MoSs insistance
257- DP votes ckd for that
263- Nekka pushes for continued BM pbpa
265- ckd asks pete to explain why BM is town
278- pete d votes nekka for being useless [townish]
280ish- Jordan begins pbpa
309- ABR votes Jordan out of the blue
310- MoS agrees with vote
311-current- nothing happens

A few things:
1) I unconditionally believe the mason claims. I think it would be stupid to fake-claim them at this point, and I can't imagine ABR as gage's scumbuddy rescuing him by putting them BOTH in such danger.

As well, I dont' think it's necessarily a bad move to have masons claim D1. Everyone seems to think it makes scum job easier of finding power roles, but in my experience it actually presents a difficult decision for scum. They want to find power roles, but can't very well just allow two confirmed innocents to just sit hang around to the endgame. I like the plan, and don't fault gage's instincts of wanting to out himself and his partner.

2)

vote DP

,

fos Jordan

,

FOS porachaz

.

The sequence around post 200 bothers me more than anything. I read it over a few times just to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Basically, DP votes for Jordan. Then, after Jordan makes what in my mind is a mediocre, metagaming post (198), DP declares himself satisfied and unvotes (202). Of all the vote/unvote sequences, this makes the least sense. I think that was some sort of timid distancing attempt.

Jordan, in addition to the above, just gives me a bad feel. Something about his pbpas seem non-commital, and I dont' like the way he's more or less deflected talk of his own scumminess. It's as if he doesn't really want to get involved in an argument about it, particularly with MoS.

Porochaz, on the other hand, has just made a series of scummy moves. I dont' like post 99, or especially post 209. FTR, I do NOT believe that BMs insistance on voting for masons means anything other than he's lazy. It looks like poro just wants something to latch onto.

[Porochaz]

K Im going to read over soon when I have time, Ive kinda lost contact with this game... I wouldn't hold your breaths for the next 24 hours though I have to read another game.

[Dragon Phoenix]

According to your logic in that post, your vote should be on Jordan, not on me.

[Lowell]

Don't question my logic. My logic has magic seeing powers...

[curiouskarmadog]

that one post by lowell is more content than I have seen him ever post in all the game I have been in with him combined x2...

going to read (not just skim) to catch up.

[pete d]

278- pete d votes nekka for being useless [townish]

If I'm reading this right, my attidute towards nekka makes you think I'm townish... So what is your opinion on nekka?

He is forming opinions about who he would vote for, but most of his arguments seem rather ambivalent. Everything he discusses he describes as that it "seems" a certain way, rather than actually being scummy. For ambivalence, 60%

Can't see how any of this equals scumminess.

[vollkan]

Can't see how any of this equals scumminess.

It's a form of being non-committal. Things like:

Some of Jordan's first few posts were a bit scummy, mostly his overreaction towards DP in #2 (I'm searching posts by user here), but he seemed better later on.

He hasn't really done anything to make me think he's scummy. Although, post 271 seems a trifle convenient.

Rereading over BM's posts, he does seem a little scummy. the early votes on Jordan and Unright seemed a bit exaggerated eg "blatant scum", "latched onto someone elses argument completely", later pulls out some WIFOM

I don't think these points are really valid. The "selfvote=scum, we must lynch them" seems like a bit of an exaggeration, imo he was just saying for early day 1 it was scummy behaviour. As for listing "too many people", the real issue is whether or not his arguments for putting them there were valid.

Majorly scummy? Not at all. FoS-worthy? Not at all. The point is that it is rather ambivalent and that strikes me as note-worthy. Currently, my biggest issues are with those who are posting very little content, of which you are not one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, where is everyone?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd like to hear from Jordan re: Lowell

[Gage]

A few things:
1) I unconditionally believe the mason claims. I think it would be stupid to fake-claim them at this point, and I can't imagine ABR as gage's scumbuddy rescuing him by putting them BOTH in such danger.

As well, I dont' think it's necessarily a bad move to have masons claim D1. Everyone seems to think it makes scum job easier of finding power roles, but in my experience it actually presents a difficult decision for scum. They want to find power roles, but can't very well just allow two confirmed innocents to just sit hang around to the endgame. I like the plan, and don't fault gage's instincts of wanting to out himself and his partner.

At least someone hasn't placed me

completely

in the moron category.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Don't get any ideas.

[pete d]

Majorly scummy? Not at all. FoS-worthy? Not at all. The point is that it is rather ambivalent and that strikes me as note-worthy. Currently, my biggest issues are with those who are posting very little content, of which you are not one.

Fair enough.

[Porochaz]

Limited access for a while will try and post as much as I can

[Mastermind of Sin]

HELLLLOOOOO-HELLLLOOOO-

HELLOO

-

HELLO

-

hello...

*echo*