California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Talitha]

I would like a full and honest role claim from Setael also.

[Gaspar]

Eh, double-post.

I should also point out that Sarc dying as Barry McGuire further ties in with the "red herring" on Dantes identities. I'd be willing to bet that, even if DP thinks he's telling the truth about being Sinbad, he's obviously not

actually

a Dantes identity.

Also, for the record, Tally, I was keeping an eye on the game and would have moved to DP if necessary with about half an hour before deadline. But yes, Sarc had yet to vote and I was under the impression that he would hammer somebody. Nervous as you may have been, a lynch was going to be achieved somewhere, on somebody.

Set, your conclusion that Tally is "practically confirmed" doesn't sit terribly well with me. For someone who went from "Gaspar and Sarc are basically confirmed" after DGB died to "I think Glork and DGB were distancing," I think you're being awfully quick to jump from one side of the debate to another. It's like one second, you don't believe that two players could distance or bus as scumbuddies, then the next you're assuming that such is the case. Your suspicions seem too (for lack of a better word) convenient.

The biggest thing sitting in the way of me just voting Set and being done with it is the ability itself. As I speculated yesterday, it doesn't feel like a scummish ability at all, unless there's a significant chance that the user will die. I don't like Set's play and her interactions, I don't like the nature of her suspicions, I don't like her decision to lie about her role yesterday. There's a lot that either doesn't add up, or adds up to Set being scum, but the claim (even though a small part of me saw it coming) has thrown me in for a loop, and I don't know why.

On, one more question, Set: What possible abilities can be granted by your product?

[Gaspar]

(Okay, not double-post. Oh wait....)

[Talitha]

I think you misunderstand my nervousness Gaspar...

And I am waiting to hear Set's full claim before I decide whether to accept the gift...

[Talitha]

(sorry for my brevity...at work.. shouldn't be scumming
...back in several hours)

[Setael]

The role ability is proven, obviously, but there is never any reason to lie about your role if you're town, especially during a massclaim.

I didn't lie about anything. There was no wagon or votes on me, so why hand the scum a power role? If a wagon would've formed on me, I'd have claimed my ability.

My name is Leon S. Peters, a Fresno resident whose main goal is to serve and give back to the community.

Each night I am able to offer an action to one player and they then choose to accept it or not. If they accept, they'd be given an action which would be randomly chosen by Mr. Grey. I was not allowed to tell them which player the offer was coming from.

The first night after I replaced in I gave the offer to Gaspar, the second night I chose Sarcastro and last night Talitha. CES chose xyxxy N1 and then didn’t send in a choice N2 or N3. I don’t know if that’s because he was inactive/not paying attention or didn’t have a good enough idea who was town and who was mafia and didn’t want to accidentally help out mafia. I considered the fact that he may have thought that he inadvertently poisoned xyzzy, and I guess that could be an explanation for why he sent in no further choices. I decided to go ahead and send in choices, since I had no reason to believe xyzzy's poisoning was caused by CES' offer, since xyzzy didn't even accept it.

On, one more question, Set: What possible abilities can be granted by your product?

All I was told is that it would be an action that would be randomly chosen by Mr. Grey.

[Gaspar]

CES's last condorcet from D1 looked like this:

Vote: Battle Mage

, [Cubsfan, Skruffs], [Mgm, LoudmouthLee, xyzzy], [everyone else, excluding me], [Dragon Phoenix, logicticus]

With Cubs getting lynched that day and Battle Mage getting killed that night (although looking at CES's posts, he actually pulled BM off of his list after BM's claim), you mean to say that CES tried to gift one of his top living suspects at the start of D2?

Also, here was your claim:

Probably wise since Silent Lee doesn't seem to be in a real hurry. Leon S. Peters, Innocent and Boring.

This strongly implied vanilla Townie, so while you didn't explicitly say you were powerless, "Innocent and Boring" (note the capital letters on "Boring") was absolutely misleading. Tally even listed people's claims, and next to yours put "(townie?)".... you never responded in any way. An intentionally vague and misleading claim is equivalent to a lie.

[Setael]

You're making no sense. Why would a power role hint that they had a power role if the reason they were NOT claiming their ability was to avoid drawing a NK? Of course I hinted at being vanilla. I didn't want to get NK'd for having a power role. I had suggested not doing a mass claim so as not to out power roles, and then it was pointed out that that made me look like I had a power role. So I hinted at being vanilla to undo the damage.

Your guess is as good as mine about CES' motivation and choices. xyzzy was right before "everyone else" so he wasn't a prime suspect. Other than that, I don't know. All I know is what was in my replacement pm.

[Gaspar]

Set, my dear.

The chief purposes of a massclaim are twofold:
1) To get all claims out in the open so as to make finding scumbags easier, the idea being that the information gained from the town will have greater benefit than the information gained by the scums.
2) To establish possible night action combinations and results, so as to best plan for the current and future days' actions.

Both of these purposes rely heavily on all protown players telling the truth about their claims, because it is a given that the scums will lie about their claims in order to muck things up. When a protown player lies (or effectively lies) about his or her role, that undermines the purpose of a massclaim.

Supposing you are indeed protown, let's say that you would in fact have been killed overnight. That would leave us with Gaspar, IH, Sarcastro, DP, and Tally. While there would be no active power for the town, the benefit of having an effectively-confirmed innocent in Sarcastro would have been

invaluable

right now. On the other hand, you are about as far from "effectively-confirmed innocent" as possible. And, at least for me, the fact that you have this ability means little right now because I've been in a game that had a Mafia Inventor.

Furthermore, lying creates a significant trust issue if you're protown. There is a

reason

that "Lynch All Liars" is a policy, and while I'm not going to invoke that here (rather, if I were to decide you are the play today, it would not be solely -- or even primarily -- because of LAL), it has thrown me in for a major loop.

You're making no sense.

Sure I am. You said "I didn't lie about anything." I am pointing out that you made a significant lie of omission by deliberately misleading the rest of us.

I'm questioning your motivations for hinting at being powerless to begin with. If you are scum and/or if you do have a chance of daykilling a target who accepts your product, you are potentially a significant threat to the town here. If you're protown, you've robbed us of your trustworthiness, potentially cost us the existence of a guaranteed innocent, and put yourself in a position where you're a viable lynch candidate anyway (meaning that the "hint townie, claim power later" strategy failed miserably).


Finally, re: this--

he wasn't a prime suspect.

My point is that, if CES wanted to give a beneficial gift to somebody he believed was protown, Logicticus and DP were the most logical choices, and one of "everyone else" was likely/viable than Xyzzy. Giving an ability to somebody in the upper echelons of your suspicion list doesn't make sense. Giving it to somebody whom you firmly believe is protown does.

[Setael]

Yeah, I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. I can say that if I wasn't telling the truth, I wouldn't have told you CES picked xyzzy, since he was poisoned and I knew that would raise some eyebrows. Regardless, I gave Sarc a daykill yesterday and that was enough motivation for me to try to give someone another ability today.

I'd like IH to weigh in on the whole issue, but more importantly I'd like the remaining townies to recognize that the scum that's left is using my ability as a red herring. What scum has ever defended TWO scum buddies in a row when they're already attracting suspicion for defending the first one? It's mind boggling - DP has already accused me of being the worst townie he's ever seen. If I was scum in this game, I'd be the worst scum I've ever seen. Ironic.

[Gaspar]

To your knowledge, Setael, is there

any

chance whatsoever that your target will die if he or she uses the product?

A simple "yes, there is a chance that the target will die," "No, there is no chance that they will die," or "I don't know if that's a possibility or not" will suffice.

[Talitha]

I also would like an answer to that.

[Talitha]

And Seteal, if you are town, now is the time for complete disclosure.. no more partial-truths.

[Setael]

No, there is no chance that they will die.

[Dragon Phoenix]

So it is pretty much stablished of course that Setael is the gift giver. But I am not sure that I would assume that this role is automatically town. And I also do not like her not coming out with this yesterday when it was claim time. Off to a re-read.

[Talitha]

If there is no chance they will die, why did CES appear to believe that he was responsible for xyzzy's death? He was adamant that the 'lace' accusations against LML were untrue. I don't have time to find link to that right now, but it is clear in my memory and it is the main reason that I believed CES to be town.

What do people think, should I accept this gift from Seteal? I have another day or so to decide.

[Setael]

There's nothing in my role pm that even hints that the player I choose to offer the gift to could be killed or that there could be any negative outcome at all. Because xyzzy DID NOT accept the offer, the only possibility (if that's what caused his death) is that those who DON'T accept die. That has been disproven as well, since Gaspar did not accept and nothing happened to him. I don't know who poisoned xyzzy, but it had nothing to do with CES offering him a gift.

Because I have claimed, there's a safety net in place. If something bad happens to Talitha, you lynch me. The only reason she would be hurt is if I'm lying scum so if something happens to her, you can lynch me. I know this won't happen since I'm not scum and the only time my offer has been accepted, Sarcastro received a daykill that took out one of the scums.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Food for thought.

OK, so who has been able to link Leon S. Peters to someone giving a power to others?

From here:
http://www.valleyhistory.org/FindingAids/mss092.html

During his lifetime, Leon S. Peters became one of the most widely respected businessmen in Foundry. He was hired as a salesman for the Valley Foundry and Machine Works in 1929. By 1940, Peter's purchased the company that had been founded in 1898 by Fresnan Ben Hunt and located on H Street in downtown Fresno, the company was a supplier of vineyard and winery machinery. During the Great Depression and World War II, Valley Foundry turned its attention to the war effort and provided material to the Army and Navy. Peters with the officials of other Fresno manufacturing companies formed the Central California War Industries cooperative and began to manufacture torpedo tubes tudes, cargo winches, bronze ship bells and hundreds of other related items. The cooperative partners led by Peters won the Army and Navy "E" award four years in a row. After the war, Valley Foundry returned to the manufacture of winemaking equipment.

Peters was named to the Board of Directors of several corporations such as Pacific Gas and Electric and was Chairman of the Board of Fresno Community Hospital. Peters was instrumental in the fund-raising program of Community Hospital and under his direction the present structure was built in 1955. His later efforts included fund raising for the new Fresno State College Campus now California State University, Fresno at Cedar and Shaw Avenues and Bulldog Stadium. The Leon S. Peters Building at Fresno State was named in his honor for his work with and support of business students. Peters was active in community organizations and was a member of the Fresno Rotary Club, as well as the Masonic Lodge. He was a member of the Armenian Assembly at the time of his death.

I don' t see the connection with a power giving role.

Another thing that bothers me about the claim is the random part. I think mith is not really a fan of any random actions.

The re-read will have to wait until tomorrownight.

[IH]

Meh didn't even know day had started.
Will be catching up soon. I had my first final today. Last one Monday. Might have time for a few good posts this weekend.

[Talitha]

If you google for "Leon S Peters" and "philanthropist" or "donation" you get hits detailing things he has donated money to in Fresno. Also his foundation gives out scholarships. To me, Leon S Peters definitely fits with a gift giving role.

[Talitha]

I just accepted the gift.

[Mr. Grey]

Vanishing Act

The guests are in a heated discussion when one of them suddenly shouts:

"Wait a minute!"

The guest begins pointing at the other, now confused guests:

"One... two... three..."

And then points at his or her own chest:

"Four. Weren't there five of us?"

"Hey, yeah. Where'd Setael go?"

---

Setael is missing. With 4 remaining, it remains 3 to lynch.

[Talitha]

Um. That was unexpected. I also now have a daykill. That was slightly unexpected too.

I want to kill someone pretty soon.. and hopefully hit scum. If not, it will at least bring it back to 2 to lynch. If Seteal was scum, well, I don't know how we're supposed to kill her now. But her role seems pretty unscummy - I am willing to believe she could be town. Which presents a dilemma, because everyone else looked to be town (or neutral) for one reason or another.

DP and Silent Lee counter claiming each other.. is that the best play for two scum? I don't believe so...

If Gaspar is scum, he made up a pretty complicated roleclaim, and also managed to plant evidence for his claim in the thread. He also claimed something that likely would have been an attractive lynch option earlier in the game.

IH knew that there were actual townie roles that were variations of Innocent Fres-.. maybe because he is one, or maybe because the mod told him.

So my condorcet is : IH, [Gaspar, DP]

Thoughts?

[Dragon Phoenix]

Even though she is gone, I assume we can still lynch Setael, even if you cannot kill her.

However, I think that this latest development, especially with an extra day kill as a result of her gift, essentially clears her.

I'd say shoot IH. let's discuss further depending on how he comes up (I give it 80%+ by now that he's scum - and hopefully the last one). IF he is town, we can still lynch (hopefully) the last scum.

My condorcet right now:
IH - Talitha - Gaspar - Setael

[Gaspar]

Even though she is gone, I assume we can still lynch Setael, even if you cannot kill her.

I would assume not. Hard to lynch someone who isn't there.

I find it odd that you two both have IH as your top suspect. I'd have him below Tally, and probably below DP. I don't think he was given "Innocent Fresnonite" (or whatever it was) as a safeclaim, and I don't see him going out on a limb to claim the role himself -- especially in the manner that he did, with the slight variant on the actual rolename.