Open 44 - Twofold Mafia: GAME OVER! before 506

[Rishi]

I doubt anyone would believe me if i claimed my role, would look like I'm trying to escape out the easy way.

It doesn't matter if we believe you or not. Just make your claim anyway.

[TylerJ]

just waiting for the hammer.

[Dasquian]

No hammer yet please: if Tobi is actually a cop he still has a night result that we need to hear first.

Tobi, this is important: you are probably right that no one will believe you, but if you're a cop, you're going to do us some damage if you don't share your result. If you're not, please say as much (and claim what you are).

[shaft.ed]

Tobi, I saw you browsing the thread. If you're claiming legitimately it shouldn't take that long. I certainly think your buying time indicates your need to fabricate a claim.

[Claus]

Claus, i couldn't help but notice you post in the MD forum talking about "what to do with scummy newbies." You mentioned that you will usually "just jump on the bandwagon." So what is it about Tobi that makes you think he is a newb and not scum?

Hello!

Why I'm not hammering Tobi... Oh, yeah! Because I have not read him yet! I will, indeed, easily vote on people I find scummy. The keyword here is "I". Anyway, If you are waiting for his claim, why the hurry?

Well, sorry for keep you all waiting. I'm going to start my re-read on Tobi and Shafted now. See you in a few hours.

[Claus]

Just finished a "just tobi" re-read. Max gives me the impression of fake dumbness - I find him scummy.

But, tobi's posts, in isolation, did not set off my radar that badly. So I'm not hammering him just yet. Maybe after Tobi claims (go! go! go! go!).

Hell, I even got the time for a full re-read today, I guess I gonna go do that. If I survive the 30 page day 1 you might hear again from me.

[TylerJ]

I didn't say anyone should hammer yet, I just said I was waiting for it.

[Claus]

I didn't say anyone should hammer yet, I just said I was waiting for it.

I was actually answering to Shafted. Page 12 of 32 now. Gosh, I hate this particular game already

[Claus]

Head exploded. Spent the whole frigging day reading D1. Started getting road-hypnosis around page 20... :-/

1- Shaft, did you come across my post on the "Village Idiot" thread while browsing MD, or did you check my profile and then found that post?

2- I really don't see the Tobi lynch. I would like to ask people voting Tobi today, why aren't they voting aioqwe instead. Compare the two, if you like.

3- That said, Max was indeed scummy, but not more than a few other players around, and less than Aiowqe. I don't see the Tobi/Rishi connection.

4- The bandwagon on PJ was rotten - and I believe Sik is the doc from PJ's play. (besides the game theory reasons)

Quicklist:

Surely scum:
- Aiowqe

Scummy:
- Dasq

Not sure:
- Shaft/Pwayne
- Rishi/Tobi

Not worried about:
- Tyler

Got a few other questions to some players from the re-read, but I think we could discuss this first.

[Dasquian]

2. I just find Tobi scummier than aioqwe, and don't actually have a compelling case against aioqwe like I do against Tobiassen. That said, he's still in my top four so if we're not going to lynch Tobi or Rishi, he'd be my top choice. "Compare the two" isn't going to cut it to get me to move my vote, though.

3. Surely you can see Rishi defending Tobi a fair bit (shaft.ed already lined out this proto-case, I think)? It's not conclusive proof (and I'm a firm advocate of the line of reasoning that defending someone doesn't automatically mean you're in cahoots with them), but it is there.

4. Why was it rotten? PJ was as scummy as all get out and I make no apologies for my place on his bandwagon.

[aioqwe]

That's six people you find scummy for four slots. Interesting.

And re-reading JDodge is a short read.

The top 3 are my "townies", bottom 4 are my "scum". I don't see the problem in finding more than 4 scummy if you're town. In 32 pages you're bound to have made some scum-tells. Although if you have enough pro-town content as well It can override some of the scum sentiment...

Sorry this might have gotten confused in translation, but are you saying Tobi is my partner and I've been trying to get him lynched since mid D1? And yes thanks for posting I think you've added a couple insights to the game.

yeah... ummm... I claim sleep deprivation... I was talking to rishi's post

I've kind of gotten locked into a situation where either I could continue to defend Tobiassen - which would make you all believe I'm his partner. I could attack him - which would make you all believe I am bussing him. Or I could ignore him - which would make you all believe I am consciously trying to avoid the issue to make the connection more tenuous.

and so what "Like rishi, said, whatever he does adds adds further evidence to the fact that he is tob's partner.

I'm not voting tob because he wants to hear more from me. Is this post satisfying? )

[pwayne66]

@claus-

Why is aioqwe "surely scum". Am I missing a case on aioqwe?

[shaft.ed]

@claus-

Why is aioqwe "surely scum". Am I missing a case on aioqwe?

QFT. Claus you do a massive reread and state that aoiqwe is sure scum, but don't make a case for it. I'm at a loss as to why that would be.

And in regards to the MD. I'm a regular reader/poster. If I didn't I might sign up for too many games when mine are slow

[TylerJ]

And Claus, my post that you quoted was in regards to Dasq's post, not yours.

I also didn't regret voting for panzer, as he seemed to be an evident scum at the time.

Also, aqiowe dosen't make as many contenless posts as tob does. he also didn't vote for himself. So, reading the two, I still find that Tob is the best candidate.

What is it that makes aquiowe scummy?

[shaft.ed]

Tobi's active lurking should be duly noted. He was making all sorts of nonsensical contributions to the thread for quite some time many times a day, and now that he's been asked for a claim he's suddenly not interested in putting anything down in thread anymore. This further cements my opinion that he is scum, trying to avoid a lynch. But since the possibility of him being the world's worst cop does exist I won't hammer.

[TylerJ]

Yeah why isn't he participating that much anymore?

[Claus]

Thanks for the comments. Yeah, I do have a case on Aioqwe, but I wanted to check that no one really found him scummy before making my case - I find he managing to get by under radar for this long amazing.

Of course, I could be failing to see something here, so I invite you to criticize my case:

=========
Here is the problem with Aioqwe - he is lurkish, but he likes to add fuel to whatever the current fire is. Almost all of his contributions have been basically "Yeah, I think X and Y are scummy" - where X and Y are the current players under the spotlight.

He doesn't seem to really care about who dies, as long as the town get around lynching someone - and he doesn't vote, to keep his low profile. He says that he doesn't like to vote (playstile), but he votes Cronx "just to get the game going", and never unvotes, even though he FoSes someone else later.

Here are some of the most offending posts:

Post 88: plays the newbie card and FnoS the "popular choice". - I don't like FoSes without votes already, and FnoS is specially timid.

Post 120: Fueling the JDodge Or Chronx fire without adding anything by himself.

Post 162,164: On page 6 and 7, CA and Tyler are under the spotlight, Aioqwe just pops in "sorry for lurking, I have a bad feeling about CA and Tyler".

By now Aioqwe begins to get a little bit of heat from Theo, (post 186), and light questioning from shafted. A few RL days later Rishi also complains about Aioqwe lurking. Then the Tyler/Panzer issue begins - Aioqwe contribution?

"Theory is that Tyler and Panzer are partners - I'm not sure, I have to re-read into the great scheme of things" (oct 24). More fuel to the current fire.

Then on oct 27, when the wagon is over, ckillor is the scummy one, with Panzer, Jdodge, Cronx as "frustrated, but may come up scum".

Then he surfaces again on nov 1. He says he will read more to see the argument on Cronx, and post more later - never does.

Regarding 2, when I vote him, he responds with

My vote for lordy was not a WTH vote... the game was slow and lordy was coming off as the scummiest (which is also why I didn't change my vote even if I FoS/HoS someone).

So it was, indeed, a WTH vote. Not admitting to it is scummy in my eyes. He could have said "Damn! That day was already 30 pages long! if you were in my place you would want it to end as fast as possible!", but he actually seems to want to keep the facade of a player who really cares about who gets lynched.

==============

So hey, this is my case. I find it much better than the case on Tobi, which seems to be voted mostly for being annoying. I agree with shafted that the fact he has not claimed yet is bothersome, but I'm willing to wait - D2 has lasted for what, one and a half weeks?

Answering some comments:

Also, aqiowe dosen't make as many contenless posts as tob does. he also didn't vote for himself. So, reading the two, I still find that Tob is the best candidate.

So you're voting Tobi because he voted himself? I'd say that Aioqwe's posts are as contentless as Tobi's. If you can point to a contentful post of Aioqwe in the early game, I would be interested.

And in regards to the MD. I'm a regular reader/poster. If I didn't I might sign up for too many games when mine are slow

Okay. Just wanted to know if you were digging for a case on me

2. I just find Tobi scummier than aioqwe, and don't actually have a compelling case against aioqwe like I do against Tobiassen. That said, he's still in my top four so if we're not going to lynch Tobi or Rishi, he'd be my top choice. "Compare the two" isn't going to cut it to get me to move my vote, though.

Noted. Why is aioqwe in your top four if you don't want to get him lynched?

3. Surely you can see Rishi defending Tobi a fair bit (shaft.ed already lined out this proto-case, I think)? It's not conclusive proof (and I'm a firm advocate of the line of reasoning that defending someone doesn't automatically mean you're in cahoots with them), but it is there.

It is not conclusive? So why is rishi your number 2 after Tobi? Anyway, I saw Shafted's case, thank you - that is why I mentioned the connection in the first place. But after my read, I just didn't "see" it. I have seen Rishi making similar comments to other newbies in other games.

4. Why was it rotten? PJ was as scummy as all get out and I make no apologies for my place on his bandwagon.

No, I didn't see Panzer as scummy. His "scummyness" come from trying to defuse an easy bandwagon, and his Tunnel Fight with tyler regarding roleclaims.

[Dasquian]

2. I just find Tobi scummier than aioqwe, and don't actually have a compelling case against aioqwe like I do against Tobiassen. That said, he's still in my top four so if we're not going to lynch Tobi or Rishi, he'd be my top choice.

Noted. Why is aioqwe in your top four if you don't want to get him lynched?

Why did you draw the conclusion I don't want to get him lynched?? I have a preferred choice who I'm sticking with for now, but with four scum, and aioqwe at third place, I'd be happy to lynch him. I'm just not going to change my vote from L-1 on my no.1 choice because you're having a grump about no one else joining you.

It is not conclusive? So why is rishi your number 2 after Tobi?

Because I find him... less scummy than Tobi and more scummy than aioqwe? It feels like you're trying to trip me up in some crude logic trap for simply ranking my suspicions.


Your case on aioqwe looks good at first glance, I'll try to read the posts you linked to in context in a bit.

[Rishi]

The funny thing about aioqwe is that I think he has been playing better lately and providing more content. So, either he was being intentionally distant at the beginning of the game, or he's learned to play better. Dunno.

[aioqwe]

This is my first non-newbie game... I played one newbie game before this and replaced in one when I started this one... I guess it's possible I just learned to play better...

post 88: I think I read the FoS page on the wiki or something rather... In hindsight it seems to be joking post...

120: Arguments are typically bad... my first game had a major row between 2 towns and that led to a much easier scum win... In that sense the row between chronx/jdodge could indicate that they are town...

162, 164: My last post was 5 days ago and I was prodded... hence quick post. Furthermore after a QUICK read, the person who's under the spotlight tends to have the most compelling argument. After glancing through these arguments and trying to make a quick post, I hadn't had time to formulate my own arguments...

So it was, indeed, a WTH vote. Not admitting to it is scummy in my eyes. He could have said "Damn! That day was already 30 pages long! if you were in my place you would want it to end as fast as possible!", but he actually seems to want to keep the facade of a player who really cares about who gets lynched.

Perhaps it's a WTH vote or my idea of a WTH post is misconstrued... regardless, I think I care about who is dead/lynched/ w/e

What about the people who have been on more b/w then me. Do they give the impression of caring for who is dead?

[TylerJ]

Excellent defense, Although, you should participate more. I honestly think your defense was better than the accusation, and the accusation had me thinking.

[shaft.ed]

Claus, I pretty much agree with your assessments. I just find Tobi's behavior scummier than aioqwe's. The main point against aioqwe is really his flip (really a non-flip with a vote) on lordy. As you point out in 120 he's arguing that JDodge and Chronx/lordy are just townies arguing, then he says at deadline bascially "WTH vote lordy" after a day of very cautious play. That's really what gets to me. Your adding fuel to the fire angle is noted, I'll reread and see if I agree.

As for the Tob Rishi connection, I think it is real but thanks for this meta information:

I have seen Rishi making similar comments to other newbies in other games.

Rishi, do you happen to remember any of these, and how the alignments of the newbies turned out (links to a couple would be awesome)

I still think Tobi is the play for today. He is playing scummy as well as newbish and now totally avoiding a claim although I've seen him log in and check the thread multiple times since the claim request.

[Rishi]

As for the Tob Rishi connection, I think it is real but thanks for this meta information:

I have seen Rishi making similar comments to other newbies in other games.

Rishi, do you happen to remember any of these, and how the alignments of the newbies turned out (links to a couple would be awesome)

I am currently ICing two newbie games, but they are in progress.

I will scan the newbie game that I completed as an IC to see if there is anything interesting in there when I get a chance.

[shaft.ed]

SSF I know you autoprod, but has Tobi been prodded yet? He's basically the star of the show right now.

[TylerJ]

Lurking when the pressure's on ya?