Mini 1859: D&D Curse of Strahd Mafia - Game Over

[Persivul]

I agree with this 100%. I don't agree with lynching Pine though because if we do, he gets to pick who the item goes to. If he dies at night, we get to vote on it.

Lynching scum outweighs the benefit of any item. We don't know that we have a vig.

[Clumsy]

Lynch Votecount 1.1

(2) Persivul - drealmerz7, Pine
(1) SlySly - Creature
(1) JazonWazza - SlySly
(1) Dunnstral - Shaddowez
(1) KuroiXHF - Culted
(1) Pine - Persivul

Not Voting:

Shaziro, JasonWazza, KuroiXHF, kuror0, BRantz, Dunnstral

With 13 alive, Majority (50%+1) is 7.

Day One Deadline is

(expired on 2016-12-16 19:00:00)

Mod notes: As always, let me know if I missed anything on the VC.

[SlySly]

I agree with this 100%. I don't agree with lynching Pine though because if we do, he gets to pick who the item goes to. If he dies at night, we get to vote on it.

Lynching scum outweighs the benefit of any item. We don't know that we have a vig.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm willing to at least wait through N1 to take Pine out.

----------------

@Pine: If we lynch you, who would you give the item to?

[Persivul]

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm willing to at least wait through N1 to take Pine out.

If Pine is scum and we don't lynch him, then scum definitely have the item tonight.

If Pine is scum and we do lynch him, then there's a good chance he gives the item to town as wifom, since whomever he gives it to will be a suspect.

[SlySly]

Upon further thinking, if Pine can self heal, I don't want a vig wasting a shot on him.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Pine

[JasonWazza]

I'm meh on him, i don't like how he claimed, and the way he went around claiming, but i'm not really overly thinking he is lynch worthy at this point.

So you see those things as negative, but don't think he's lynch worthy. OTOH you have a vote on drealmerz but haven't made a case on her at all. Why is drealmerz more lynch worthy than Pine, and why aren't you explaining or pushing your case? Feels like scum who can't make a case but know that they're supposed to be voting someone.

Me not posting a case = me not having a case?

[kuror0]

There's not so much that I could judge so far. I don't know how it's alignment indicative if we want to go to the shops, the cemetery or anywhere else.

It is also NAI for me but you have plenty of things that can help you develop a read not just the place they wanted to go, that's more like a cheap excuse.

For example I didn't like how jasson throw shade on everyone who didn't pick cemetery with nothing but conjectures and assumptions. I don't like how some players have misrepresented points that have been explained thorough, I don't like something persivul said early but I can't remember what was right now but will go back later and check it to be sure. I also don't like how he only show show situations where Pine was scum to promote his lynch neglecting completely the town Pine mislynch consequences. Aff gotta run more in a while.

[Clumsy]

I had a question come up, thought it best to answer publicly. Vedith requested his replacement via PM, and was not force replaced.

[Persivul]

Upon further thinking, if Pine can self heal, I don't want a vig wasting a shot on him.

Good point. Also, if he gives the item to someone suspicious and we do have a vig, the vig can target the recipient.

[Persivul]

Me not posting a case = me not having a case?

Yes, that's certainly a possibility.

Another is that you have a case but aren't posting it. There's no town motivation for doing that. Sometimes a person doesn't post a case because it's incomplete and they don't want to tip off the suspect, but in that situation they don't tip off the suspect by voting them.

[Persivul]

I also don't like how he only show show situations where Pine was scum to promote his lynch neglecting completely the town Pine mislynch consequences.

Feel free to point those out. As I see it, if he's mislynched:
- we lost a townie who made himself an easy mislynch target by claiming for no reason and in a contradictory manner

- we get better info than from another mislynch, as the people on his item wagon now look better

So tell me what I'm missing.

[JasonWazza]

Me not posting a case = me not having a case?

Yes, that's certainly a possibility.

Another is that you have a case but aren't posting it. There's no town motivation for doing that. Sometimes a person doesn't post a case because it's incomplete and they don't want to tip off the suspect, but in that situation they don't tip off the suspect by voting them.

I have a case, it's mostly just me procrastinating to typing it up.

[Persivul]

I have a case, it's mostly just me procrastinating to typing it up.

1. You could have held off on the vote until you had time to post the case. Naked votes frequently cause suspicion. This is nothing new.

2. If it's a good case I'll think better of you.

[SlySly]

It is also NAI for me but you have plenty of things that can help you develop a read not just the place they wanted to go, that's more like a cheap excuse.

I've been away awhile. What is NAI?

[KuroiXHF]

I understand, but I have a process.

[shaddowez]

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm willing to at least wait through N1 to take Pine out.

If Pine is scum and we don't lynch him, then scum definitely have the item tonight.

If Pine is scum and we do lynch him, then there's a good chance he gives the item to town as wifom, since whomever he gives it to will be a suspect.

So you're basically echoing Dunn's thought process on why to vote for Pine.

There's not so much that I could judge so far. I don't know how it's alignment indicative if we want to go to the shops, the cemetery or anywhere else.

It is also NAI for me but you have plenty of things that can help you develop a read not just the place they wanted to go, that's more like a cheap excuse.

For example I didn't like how jasson throw shade on everyone who didn't pick cemetery with nothing but conjectures and assumptions. I don't like how some players have misrepresented points that have been explained thorough, I don't like something persivul said early but I can't remember what was right now but will go back later and check it to be sure. I also don't like how he only show show situations where Pine was scum to promote his lynch neglecting completely the town Pine mislynch consequences. Aff gotta run more in a while.

Do you have any town reads, or is pretty much everyone scummy? And if there are so many people you don't like, why aren't you voting somebody?

It is also NAI for me but you have plenty of things that can help you develop a read not just the place they wanted to go, that's more like a cheap excuse.

I've been away awhile. What is NAI?

Not Alignment Indicative

[Persivul]

So you're basically echoing Dunn's thought process on why to vote for Pine.

Maybe - I really didn't understand what he was saying there. I know that I made a good case for Pine as scum, and you're skipping over it to address a later point as to why we should actually lynch scum.

[shaddowez]

I'm fine with your case in 474, it actually echoes many of the things that I don't like about Pine (that post is coming soon, I promise). That doesn't mean I have to like the idea of "Let's lynch him to find out if he's scum", which is drastically different than "I think he's scum, let's lynch him".

I'm not finding you scummy for your process, I was more wondering that since you seem to be thinking along the same lines if you find Dunn's approach scummy or not.

[Persivul]

That doesn't mean I have to like the idea of "Let's lynch him to find out if he's scum", which is drastically different than "I think he's scum, let's lynch him".

My position, as seen from my case, is

I think he's scum, let's lynch him.

Others put me in the position of arguing the lynch in other ways due to their assumption that there's a vig who would shoot him if we don't lynch him. If you look at an isolated post of mine it might seem odd, but if you read all of them, along with posts I was responding to, I think it's clear.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Pine

It's my understanding that the item passes on, on a lynch, before the night phase, and so can still be used. The person gets to select where the item goes. Let's kill Pine to see if scum took it for themselves, and if they're town they get to select who gets the item.

You're literally saying "Town helped him get this item, now let's lynch him to see if he is actually town or not." That's terrible, and I can't even fathom how that would ever come from a town mindset.

Actually, I said the opposite. Replace the words town with scum

Regarding Dunn's approach above: the first is bad, as he seems to be saying we should try this even with no scum read on Pine or the Pine item wagon. The second one seems to indicate he's suspicious of Pine and/or the wagon, but it's not clear.

I don't like it, but reading dunn's ISO overall he's not high on my priorities rn.

[kuror0]

Ok to continue my post. Persival just posted the Pine scum repercutions of lynch or no lynch, heavily influencing the opinion of other players.

If Pine is scum and we don't lynch him, then scum definitely have the item tonight.

If Pine is scum and we do lynch him, then there's a good chance he gives the item to town as wifom, since whomever he gives it to will be a suspect.

I shall complete with my thoughts.
If Pine is town and we don't lynch him, scum won't have the item tonight and we will force them to risk a kill attempt on him. Town still won't be sure about the abilitys of the item.

If Pine is town and we do lynch him, then we know the item ability is confirmed but the new recipient of the item is an unknown alignment because Pine wouldn't know if the person he choose to give the item is town or scum.

Well that's just what I got on my mind to weight the decision. I do find the claim Pine did contrived as I said before but I doubt a scum would go to those lengths just to get 1 item, feels like too much risk for some unknown reward. Also about Persival there is this:

Upon further thinking, if Pine can self heal, I don't want a vig wasting a shot on him.

Good point. Also, if he gives the item to someone suspicious and we do have a vig, the vig can target the recipient.

This lines up lynch/executions to everyone who gets the item which is just...

p-edit: I stated this post when the last post was number 516

[kuror0]

Do you have any town reads, or is pretty much everyone scummy? And if there are so many people you don't like, why aren't you voting somebody?

I will only vote when I feel confident someone is scum. I tend to retain my vote a lot. I have some town leans but that's as far as I get. It is too hard for me to get solid town reads as I'm way too paranoid and have never been able to find solid town reads early in the game, so I focus on situations that make me suspicious of people and follow them to determine if they are scum or not, that's my play style.

[Persivul]

I shall complete with my thoughts.
If Pine is town and we don't lynch him, scum won't have the item tonight and we will force them to risk a kill attempt on him.

He's already said that the item is unlikely to benefit him. Doesn't make much sense considering his claim, but that's what he said. So, no, scum won't be forced to target him, even if he is town. The item would sit unused by either side, which might not bother scum at all.

Town still won't be sure about the abilitys of the item.

So you think he's town but lying to us?

If Pine is town and we do lynch him, then we know the item ability is confirmed

How so? I don't recall that mod flips the item on death of the owner.

but the new recipient of the item is an unknown alignment because Pine wouldn't know if the person he choose to give the item is town or scum.

Item owners will always be of unknown alignment to townies.

[Pine]

This was important information and deserves to be marked as such:

The amulet recharges a limited-use power to full uses. It isn't likely to be useful to me, but it should be helpful to someone in late game when I'm dead. Choose wisely.

I'm semi-BP anyway. I can self-heal.

You can self-heal.

First, if this is true, town has every reason NOT to claim this. You should WANT scum to target you, thereby wasting a shot. Scum OTOH could claim it to explain why they weren't NK'd, as previously noted.

Second, it would be incredibly unfair to scum for a townie to have unlimited self-heals. This would likely be a 1X or at most 2X power. You claim the amulet recharges a limited-use power to full uses. Yet, you say that it isn't likely to be useful to you.

Third, rules say that mafia have daytalk. Pine said he found info on Amulet of St. Markovia. I tried googling it but didn't find anything. If Pine flips scum, then one of the people with flavor knowledge (shaz or jason, IMO shaz) is likely scum as well and fed him info in the scum chat.

VOTE: Pine

You're right. Ordinarily, Town would have no reason to declare themselves BP. I, however, am not BP. It's complicated. Healing myself isn't a guarantee, as my role PM suggests that there are conditions and abilities which could stack to defeat it. It's also limited use. You said unlimited, not me. That's why I said it is "unlikely" I would get to use the amulet, as it would necessitate me surviving long enough to need recharging.

Also, I can direct the healing at someone else instead of me, which is why I feel it is beneficial to deploy some anti-scum WIFOM about how the power works and who I'll be targeting. It's not just a scum tool, it's just rare that Town is in the position of having more information and needing to act unpredictably. I've already put so much of myself out there that I felt it necessary to dodge and weave a bit.

Further, here's a link. I found it on my very first Google attempt, using the terms Strahd and amulet, because I couldn't recall the name that Shaziro said. Your Google-fu is

weak

.

It doesn't quite say what it does, though.

I'm reading it as saying that if you have a 1X power and use it, this amulet would give you 1X back.

It also would give 2 back to a 2x power, or 3 back to a 3x power, etc. Don't misrep what I said, I said that it recharges a single power to full.

I am extremely happy with my Persival vote. He is WAY too interested in getting an empowered PR lynched, because he's afraid he can't get me killed at night.

I agree with this 100%. I don't agree with lynching Pine though because if we do, he gets to pick who the item goes to. If he dies at night, we get to vote on it.

Lynching scum outweighs the benefit of any item. We don't know that we have a vig.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm willing to at least wait through N1 to take Pine out.

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@Pine: If we lynch you, who would you give the item to?

Shaziro. He's my strongest Townread. He didn't have to give us the information that led to finding the amulet, and he didn't have to champion my softclaim when we got it. Indeed, I find it likely he would have received it by vote if I hadn't spoken up. I don't see scum motivations for those things. Other candidates are Kuror0 or SlySly, I get Town vibes from them.

[Shaziro]

Item owners will always be of unknown alignment to townies.

Actually, I can think of a character or three who would fit as Innocent Child.