New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[mhsmith0]

I'm running out of laughing reaction gifs guys

@gamma read the setup

Gamma going for the early derp clear I see.

[mhsmith0]

Now, with that said, I don't believe any town lady should so blithely accept a dance from any gentleman. This is a chance to weed out a villain in our midst, or force the villains to dance together at the least.

Speaking of which...2 mafia gentlemen, one lady? Vice versa? Anyone have any thoughts on what's more likely?

Agree on not doing quick accepts.

Wrt setup, I'd say 2/1 or 1/2 are basically equally likely. I don't know if fakegod would be willing to do a 3/0 or 0/3 but I'd guess it's pretty unlikely at the very least.

[mhsmith0]

I don't know if fakegod would be willing to do a 3/0 or 0/3 but I'd guess it's pretty unlikely at the very least.

???

It's not about what he wants if he's random.orging the player list.

He didn't mention any restriction on who could be scum.

If it's totally random then it's pretty unlikely to be 0/3 or 3/0 (10-20% odds?). If it's something that he won't allow at all, then it's 0%. Either way, if we have two lady wolf flips, the lady is PROBABLY a dude and vice versa.

Ps for the love of god, please don't suicide this game. If you think your partner is wolfy, vote them and see what happens. Dumb townies suiciding was a big part of towns loss last time.

[mhsmith0]

Now, with that said, I don't believe any town lady should so blithely accept a dance from any gentleman. This is a chance to weed out a villain in our midst, or force the villains to dance together at the least.

Speaking of which...2 mafia gentlemen, one lady? Vice versa? Anyone have any thoughts on what's more likely?

Agree on not doing quick accepts.

Wrt setup, I'd say 2/1 or 1/2 are basically equally likely. I don't know if fakegod would be willing to do a 3/0 or 0/3 but I'd guess it's pretty unlikely at the very least.

I'm pretty sure its randomised. Otherwise it would be bastard. What's with the useless posts.

Randomized is based on players to slots. If # wolves per gender is non random, that's not actually bastard.

It's relevant because if we get two flips, it's suggestive down the road. Not super relevant right now.

The "don't accept super early" bit IS relevant though. It's pretty anti town to just pair off quickly, since it prevents us from being able to get useful,info from the excercise.

[mhsmith0]

LOL

I like how mh goes quite when mod confirmed setup randomized and he no longer has anything to discuss.

I took a shower actually. Your aggressive shading is noted though.

[mhsmith0]

Have you played with Cerb before? He's as asset to town if he is town.

the hell does this have to do with anything???

Nothing. Also having just modded cerb in a newbie game I'll go ahead and disagree that he's good enough to merit that kind of treatment. Don't really think he's notably better than most of the others here.

Wk noted though.

[mhsmith0]

And why do you wanna pair up with nahdia and get killed during intermission?

^^^^ A LITERAL SCUMSLIP ^^^^

Shooting the ic pair is pretty normal in this game.

The actual issue is it's a dumb question that doesn't go anywhere useful.

[mhsmith0]

Btw I'm about to "strategically lurk" (I.e. Meet coworkers and go to a football game).

I'll check in on phone occasionally, but would like to ask that we don't just bang out pairs super quickly.

[mhsmith0]

LOL

I like how mh goes quite when mod confirmed setup randomized and he no longer has anything to discuss.

I took a shower actually. Your aggressive shading is noted though.

If you need help to have a non garbage opening I'll help you out to buddy.

Here is what you do:

Take a random post in the thread. Call it scummy.

Take another random post in the thread. Call it townie.

You then go into your scum PT and make sure you tell Shadow to do the same exact thing.

That you're openly admitting that just shitting up easy reads is not difficult as a wolf basically means that you're admitting that your read on me is pretty much trash.

Probably slight villa lean for tone and continued push I guess, but certainly not strong.

mhsmith you are apparently very, very bad at reading.

shadow_step has just implied that he knows cerberus is town.

this is something that only scum should know.

He certainly implied that he thinks cerb is town. I don't really see the "know" bit.

[mhsmith0]

HS, there's no benefit to responding to your post? Your opinion of my slot quite literally DOES NOT MATTER.

Only Nahdias does at this juncture. *shrug*

And there's not enough in this game, not by a longshot, for me to actually have an opinion on jester or shadow.

pedit:@Nahdia: Not at all. I'm being completely honest. After I signed up and looked at the player list, I was like omg I can get Nahdia to dance! I was (semi) anxiously awaiting game start to make sure you didn't accept with anyone before I could ask, and then....it turned out you were IC, and I was even happier because it means I don't have to worry about Bloodborne BS in our PT, and determined then that I'd be willing to accept death D1 if we couldn't gamesolve all secret and stuff.

@SS: No good reason, as I said, it's HORRID play by me. Like, the fucking worst, but I just wanted a PT with Nahdia before game start, and decided the IC thing didn't matter.

@smith: newbie games don't count. Too short.

Sure, but what do you think of shadow sucking up to you with that post?

[mhsmith0]

I'm trying to decide if a Dunn/Maria PT would be more or less hilarious than the Dunn/Zack hydra PT in wakes. Hmm...

[mhsmith0]

I'm trying to decide if a Dunn/Maria PT would be more or less hilarious than the Dunn/Zack hydra PT in wakes. Hmm...

Did you not read our last one smith?

I think I didn't? Hold on...

[mhsmith0]

Eh, Zack/Dunn was better. The last half of yours there was kinda good tho.

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith who are you pairing with

Not sure yet. Only three ladies left, pie could be interesting since she's a vet and it'd be fun to try and sort her, Maria could be fun but I think she's already fighting off suitors left and right, and Kagami seems ok so far but I don't think I've ever seen her before so I don't really think I can say I know her.

None of the three left seem scummy so far, fwiw. Any suggestions on a fun pairing?

[mhsmith0]

Oh right there's also vedith. Forgot about "her". Not really sure on vedith yet, I haven't played w him enough to really get much of a meta read there.

[mhsmith0]

Hopefully I can be in a fun pair like I was with Io in Sonia's game where we both suspected the other and spent a full night phase lying to and trying to manipulate each other. That was pretty fun.

[mhsmith0]

I have town on HS, Cv666, inspectorscout, and SAD. I think Kagami is probably also town but I'm not as sure.

this game is very difficult to parse.

Yes because a good chunk of posts have been

1) about mechanics
2) bitching about people talking mechanics
3) various other useless stuff

And suspects so far?

[mhsmith0]

I'd suggest pie > kagami > vedith

I feel like the second two are likely to be aligned with a faction that does not necessarily contribute to the win condition of the common people

But what if we're all aristocrats and the three mafia are the common people trying to infiltrate our ranks? DID YOU THINK OF THAT??????

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith complaining about people talking about mechanics?

Mainly SAD with a side of parama.

I'll also admit I've just been skimming since I was at a football game this afternoon.

[mhsmith0]

I'd suggest pie > kagami > vedith

I feel like the second two are likely to be aligned with a faction that does not necessarily contribute to the win condition of the common people

But what if we're all aristocrats and the three mafia are the common people trying to infiltrate our ranks? DID YOU THINK OF THAT??????

That would actually make a lot of sense
Yay for funposting

[mhsmith0]

Invites pieguyn to dance

Be prepared for a PT full of interrogation and shit posting. Be very prepared.

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, if this is theater between Dunn and Maria I'm super entertained. Doubt it is tho.

[mhsmith0]

Hey pieguyn just got invited

Don't strand me with kagami/vedith

Quick, strand him with kagami and vedith!

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith do you think mafia would want to pair up with each other by the way

How would you extract scummy people from the way pairs formed

I think mafia would prefer to avoid pairing since if their pair goes down they're basically toast.

I'm not really sure how to extract suspects from pair formation; I'll probably skim prior iterations and see if there's anything especially that stands out.

[mhsmith0]

Invites pieguyn to dance

Be prepared for a PT full of interrogation and shit posting. Be very prepared.

I'll accept this.

PHASE ONE COMPLETE

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, if this is theater between Dunn and Maria I'm super entertained. Doubt it is tho.

Maria is all about theater as scum.

*snickers* and you know I do it well Vedith how do you think we won our last scum game

I look forward to the day we are both town in LYLO, you know.

oh that's gonna be hell

*Grabs popcorn*

[mhsmith0]

'Not Voting [5] - The_Jester, inspectorscout, Cerberus v666, mhsmith0, MiniDeathStar'
This is not ok.

Yeah guys friendly reminder that this game does have a time limit. That in mind I'll compromise and

VOTE: MariaR/Shadow_step

Both those leading wagons ought to die eventually.

Umm...

Every lynch will reset the deadline to 8 days.

We have a week to lynch, then another week, then another week (

@mod: please confirm if I'm mistaken

). Time is only an issue if we mess around and don't lynch by deadline. So unless I'm wrong about the setup, we can at least slightly chill.

[mhsmith0]

Seeing how the last game went, I think it's better to push a lynch on your own partner instead of suiciding if you think they are scum.
Town have more info if there is a lynch.

Fwiw this almost exactly mirrored what I'd said to pie in our PT earlier. Minor possible partner points there, thought I'd like to think they wouldn't make that easy of an error.

[mhsmith0]

It's lunch and I've only been skimming so I don't really have much to say. As long as it's essentially a week per lynch, I'd say that my intention to catch up tonight ought to be fine. Sorry if that's annoying.

[mhsmith0]

@nahdia: Sure. She's barely said anything in PT so far, so not much to go in there. She did threaten to try not to live to endgame again, but that's pretty easy to say as either alignment since there's no obligatory follow through.

I'm mildly suspicious of her easy accept of my invite, since "person who isn't going to suicide like a chump" is a nice partner for a wolf to have. I thought her posts in the main thread have been fine so far, though I haven't been paying close attention so far.

@is: 1) she's my partner
2) nahdia is IC so why do you care about why she's asking the question?

[mhsmith0]

@is: 1) she's my partner
2) nahdia is IC so why do you care about why she's asking the question?

I forgot she was your partner, I thought she was with someone else. Sorry.

I do think it's important to follow her thought process, even if she's the IC. Not to figure her out (obviously) but to help me find how she thinks. In this case I was just dumb though.

Why do you care how she thinks? She's the ic. You don't have to sort her at all.

[mhsmith0]

@is: 1) she's my partner
2) nahdia is IC so why do you care about why she's asking the question?

I forgot she was your partner, I thought she was with someone else. Sorry.

I do think it's important to follow her thought process, even if she's the IC. Not to figure her out (obviously) but to help me find how she thinks. In this case I was just dumb though.

Why do you care how she thinks? She's the ic. You don't have to sort her at all.

Because she might see stuff I don't?
I always try to figure out how everyone thinks, regardless of if they're IC.

OK let's do a hypothetical.

After hes done
Why pie out of all people?

What would be a hypothetical answer nahdia might give to that question that would actually enhance your understanding of her thought process in a useful way? If her role was unknown, then it's a plausible scum-hunting question (maybe she's just doing busy work, etc.). But since she's the IC, and doesn't need to be sorted, what kind of answer might she give to that question that might actually be useful?

I look at your question, and it reads like you're trying to see if nahdia's question has any use at all, which only really makes sense as a scum-hunting poke, but again, it can't be that unless you forgot she was the IC. So I really want to know what it was actually useful for, other than a generic "I'm trying to understand her better"

[mhsmith0]

Did Smith just fall one level further down the scumpile for everyone, or was it just for me? I felt like that jab at inspector was incredibly far-fetched.

It's probably just you, but the inspector WK is interesting.

[mhsmith0]

What would be a hypothetical answer nahdia might give to that question that would actually enhance your understanding of her thought process in a useful way? If her role was unknown, then it's a plausible scum-hunting question (maybe she's just doing busy work, etc.). But since she's the IC, and doesn't need to be sorted, what kind of answer might she give to that question that might actually be useful?

I look at your question, and it reads like you're trying to see if nahdia's question has any use at all, which only really makes sense as a scum-hunting poke, but again, it can't be that unless you forgot she was the IC. So I really want to know what it was actually useful for, other than a generic "I'm trying to understand her better"

An anwer could be:
"Because I scumread her."
Or
"Because she hasn't posted a lot yet, and I want to see how he reacts to having to comment on a person for who there is not a popular read yet."
Or
"Because I'm unsure about what to think of her."

She could've asked that because she voiced a scumread on you (?) and tried to test you, like in scenario 2. She could've because she was unsure herself, like in scenario 3. She could have asked it because she scumread you and wanted to create associative tells in case the two of you are scum. Really, there are a lot of possible answers/reasons, and all of these help me find out where she is in this game.

You're making a list of things she could have said but are failing to explain why any of them would actually be helpful to you.

Let's start with the first one: that she thinks pie is a wolf (it's a reasonably obvious possible answer). Having her out that read at a time when pie isn't under pressure isn't necessarily helpful to anyone, since if pie is suspicious it's more helpful to have other people be bringing up points there, and then if pie flips wolf you can better evaluate who pressured her and why. Like, walk through that scenario, where the actual answer is that nahdia suspects pie, and come up with a town-positive reason for her to out that suspicion, because I don't see any.

Instead, it looks like you're either fake scum-hunting the IC or maybe just asking the IC to tell you what to think. Which is, at best, lazy town.

[mhsmith0]

MH, I understand where you're coming from and that post rose an eyebrow for me, but I really do think Scout just made a dumb mistake and that you're chasing a red herring.
Scumscout forgets that nahdia is IC 'Oops, I shouldn't have said that, that makes no sense'
Townscout forgets that nahdia is IC 'Oops, I shouldn't have said that, that makes no sense'

Sure, but that's not what his answer was. He's arguing that his intention was to better understand Nahdia, even though she's the IC. And he's struggling to explain how, in the world where he did in fact remember that she was the IC (which is what he seems to be representing), why his questioning was in any way useful.

[mhsmith0]

OK now maybe you're onto something MH.

Perhaps. I probably need to ISO him and see where that goes, but at the very least that was a ping and something he did a pretty poor job defending on.

[mhsmith0]

One of my preferred scumhunting methods is watching people interact with confirmed town. Scum will try to discredit them any way they can.

Oh good, did someone already do that? Or are you just needlessly telling the wolves what not to do? If you're trying to play the "bad town" card, please stop.

[mhsmith0]

So because I'm not the IC I'm supposed to shit out reads but the IC shouldn't. Bullshit, the IC is our most valuable player and should voice her thoughts. She asked you about a specific player and I wanted to know why that player in particular. Not because I find Nahdia questionable, but it seemed to be an odd player to ask about.

Either of those answers gives me a clearer view of her reads and on the way she thinks. It's the way I play and the way I think. Unless I think you're scum I consider your reads and want to know why they are that way. It's called a town, not a single player.

The IC being open and clear about reads, especially super early in the game, is less of a priority than everyone else being open and clear about reads (especially since the IC can't possibly be NK'd before a number of lynches happen first). It's a strange priority for a town player to have at this juncture.

PS If SAD is a wolf, then MDS is pretty likely a wolf too for the IS WK.

[mhsmith0]

One of my preferred scumhunting methods is watching people interact with confirmed town. Scum will try to discredit them any way they can.

@Dunn: I'd missed you making the point the first time. Lessens the possible connection between shadow and pie, but makes shadow's point on that subject even sheepier than I'd thought.

[mhsmith0]

PS If SAD is a wolf, then MDS is pretty likely a wolf too for the IS WK.

And which would you lynch first?

Not sure. Just kinda reacting at this juncture, since there's a bunch of stuff I haven't really read yet.

[mhsmith0]

@mh, I am unfamiliar with the term 'WK', could you please educate me?

white knight

[mhsmith0]

@mh, I am unfamiliar with the term 'WK', could you please educate me?

So because I'm not the IC I'm supposed to shit out reads but the IC shouldn't. Bullshit, the IC is our most valuable player and should voice her thoughts. She asked you about a specific player and I wanted to know why that player in particular. Not because I find Nahdia questionable, but it seemed to be an odd player to ask about.

Either of those answers gives me a clearer view of her reads and on the way she thinks. It's the way I play and the way I think. Unless I think you're scum I consider your reads and want to know why they are that way. It's called a town, not a single player.

The IC being open and clear about reads, especially super early in the game, is less of a priority than everyone else being open and clear about reads (especially since the IC can't possibly be NK'd before a number of lynches happen first). It's a strange priority for a town player to have at this juncture.

PS If SAD is a wolf, then MDS is pretty likely a wolf too for the IS WK.

But I'm not asking her to be open with her reads? I indirectly asked if that was an attempt at scumhunting on you, genuine interest in your read for some reason or lack of own reads? I didn't have a good read on you, and neither on pie.

Why, if you think I'm scum, are you even talking about SAD? Do you think we are both scum? You saying this shows that you are either townreading me or throwing shade.

As you would put it:
You're attempting to find associative tells before any informational flip has occured. It's a strange priority for a town player to have at this juncture.

Identifying connections between players is sometimes interesting, including to see how people react to it. You seem to think that this is unreasonable. Is it because

1) You think that the idea of a SAD-MDS team makes no sense?
or
2) Because "it's just too early" to look at how people might be connected together?
or
3) Something else?

Because the MDS WK of you at that spot was itself pretty interesting and IMO worth commenting on. Do you disagree?

[mhsmith0]

I know
But he is trying to discredit my play. He called me 'lazy town at best' while I definitely had a reason for asking

Except that it was a terrible reason, which shows that you're not prioritizing your sorting in what I would consider a reasonable manner. Which means IMO you're being intellectually lazy with that question, which is either wolf or lazy town. Not sure which yet, but yes it was bad on your end.

[mhsmith0]

Oh I just figured out WK means whiteknighting. Lmao I'm slow.

MhSmith, you gave me your walls of text explaining why townies make careless mistakes a lot more than wolves, and why digging into those instead of analysing votes, stances and reads is something a wolf would attempt. So I thought you were bullshitting us. My scumread on you has nothing to do with my read on inspector or Arthur.

Yes, townies make careless mistakes more than wolves. But IS is representing this as an intentional process, not a careless mistake. So that's not really a relevant defense. Is it possible that he's a townie who actually believes waht he's saying, or that he's a townie simply too proud to admit a fuckup? Sure. But it's also entirely possible that he's a wolf that is struggling to defend what he's done.

What's your scumread on me based on again?

[mhsmith0]

As an example of what I mean by mistakes, see

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... post722301

I'm back on but won't be very active until up to 3 hours before EoD because I'm going to an early fireworks event for Bonfire Night.

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... post722309

I'm showcasing my lynchbait status the way a peacock showcases their feathers. I make awful posts day after day, daring you to lynch me.

I fixed your typos.

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... post722312

Scum is not as demonstratably awful as sociopath.

(they were both town in that game)

That's different than seemingly imitating a town process of scum-hunting, while carelessly scum-hunting the IC. It's more of a seeming imitation of scum-hunting than it is simply a terrible post.

[mhsmith0]

Now we are talking.

Yes, I think that team doesn't make sense as arthur is discussing reads with me in our PT and he kind of agrees with my scumread on her.

Yes, I also think you can look for associative tells as much as you want, but the moment one of these flips town (and i think arthur is) you did nothing really. Why look for scum pairing before you know they are scum? I think there was some tell i saw earlier and mentioned when it was asked, but's in vain if one of them flips town, and then I've been looking busy instead of being busy.

I do agree that the WK was odd, especially since I've been voicing my scumread on her for a while now.

1) In the event that you're both town, sure. Not sure I'm there yet on either of you.

2) Mainly I look for things that ping me however, and in this case "MDS is WK'ing her teammate's dance partner" was what jumped out at me as a plausible explanation there. It could also be a lazy defense of a town-town pair, I suppose, but intuitively it seemed like a connectino between MDS and one of you two.

3) OK

[mhsmith0]

@MhSmith: I just thought it was suspicious that you latched onto that when so much stuff has happened that you could have analysed instead. I saw it and I thought he was derping. I was wondering why you didn't give him the benefit of the doubt and instead looked for something more substantial to bring up. It looked opportunistic to me.

Besides, I'm confident in your ability to easily make out pretty much anything to be a scumslip so I'm not going to trust you on that particular thing. Sorry. When you get to casing people based on readonomics and wagonomics, then we can talk.

I basically latched onto it because I was here and it happened. Like I said, will be re-reading other stuff later. Derp is possible too, but that's not what immediately came to mind, especially when he admitted that he knew full well Nahdia was the IC. It looked like the imitation of a town process, by asking a question that looks useful at a cursory glance but that is actually just busywork.

I also don't really buy much into "scumslips" for the most part. My scum-hunting tends to be more behavioral, as well as data-driven stuff like wagonomics (though obviously you can't get much there before flips).

[mhsmith0]

I should probably look into the Dunn/HS back and forth too, but that'll be later since I actually do have to go back to work. Later all.

[mhsmith0]

got behind w other stuff (lol turbos), will catch up tomorrow night. sorry for being lazy.

[mhsmith0]

First post was me correcting a generalistic philosophy

Yeah but you said "I know not all games have daychat, but specifically for this setup,

I feel that point is relevant

."
What did you mean by relevant? Do you feel someone specifically is doing what you said? If so why not point it out directly?

First post was me correcting a generalistic philosophy

Second post was me suggesting a scumhunting tool I figured out from my own scumplay

Again, like, what is the point? Do you feel someone has tried to discredit the conftownie yet? If not, then why did you say it when you can hold off on that thought was observe more if someone ~actually~ does do that "scumtell".

It feels like both posts read "Hey guys look I'm looking for scum in such and such ways I'm trying to figure the game out", meanwhile if you actually meant those two posts you wouldn't have made them until you feel someone has demonstrated such behavior.[/quote]

One of my preferred scumhunting methods is watching people interact with confirmed town. Scum will try to discredit them any way they can.

Oh good, did someone already do that? Or are you just needlessly telling the wolves what not to do? If you're trying to play the "bad town" card, please stop.

"Man, smith hasn't done shit all game except setup talk"
"Yeah, screw that guy"

[mhsmith0]

@mhsmith thoughts on pie?

Null. Zero thread presence in PT (not that I'm much better), a stated suspicion on me that's I guess plausible but is pretty fakable too (especially with our pair under basically zero pressure right now). 806 is a bad plan and an easy way to blow the game if you guess wrong on the town-town pair, but I don't really get meaningful pings from her ISO so far one way or the other.

Anything in particular you think is notable on her end that I should be paying more attention to?

[mhsmith0]

It's more the "doesn't really matter who we're lynching outside the town/town pair" bit. I don't really have a problem w prioritizing town-hunting vs scum-hunting as a solving mechanism.

[mhsmith0]

turboing, back in like an hour (or sooner if I die fast)

[mhsmith0]

Okay Cerb. We can talk about other people but I want a gamma Lynch regardless.
What do you think about MH?

smith is being lazy
(also just won a turbo wolf game tonight WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO )

[mhsmith0]

Oh lol. I thought you wrote HS, not MH. wow. I have no idea how I made that connection.

Alright.

MH is being lazy, and I don't like it. As I said before pie is within my real of suspicion as well, so...they're on the low likelihood of being town/town spectrum, but blah. Do you want me to actually ISo someone SS? I'll be a lot more useful after I do that.

Ok so you don't like my relative laziness and low activity, which is I guess ok as it is.

What do you think of the content I've actually produced? SAD was bitching about my only doing setup stuff, which is pretty obviously false; what do you think of my actual interactions that I've had, most notably my questioning of IS?

[mhsmith0]

Oh lol. I thought you wrote HS, not MH. wow. I have no idea how I made that connection.

Alright.

MH is being lazy, and I don't like it. As I said before pie is within my real of suspicion as well, so...they're on the low likelihood of being town/town spectrum, but blah. Do you want me to actually ISo someone SS? I'll be a lot more useful after I do that.

Yeah iso inspector. I'm paranoid about the slot. He expressed a TR on me when Parama was bombing the thread with SCUM SLIP-LYNCH SHADOW.

What are your thoughts about the back and forth between me and IS about his questioning of nahdia?

[mhsmith0]

although scum me would 100% pair with smith or gamma

although scum me would 100% pair with smith or gamma

Or me if you wanted to win as scum y'know

real talk

Oh hell no I'd be scared af to go dance with you if I was scum cause I'd think you'd figure me out by comparing dances
Smith and gamma are easy to manipulate...dam why do I have a scum plan yet no town plan
*rechecks role pm*

thoughts smith?

I think I'm less easily manipulated than you give me credit for.
I also think the lack of an invitation from me, and the fact that you already had a stack of invites, would have made it awkward for you to have shoehorned a PT with me (though honestly a PT with you would have been fun I think).
But I also think you're relatively likelier town given that you picked shadow over sick, not so much because sick is easy to manipulate and/or makes bad reads (cough, cough, Newbie 1714), but because shadow was a slot under fire with a realistic chance of getting lynched early on and I don't really see the gain from wolf!you from taking him in that spot, unless you were super confident that he could claw his way out from under it.
Some degree of WIFOM I guess, but I'd still say worth a town lean at this point.

PS If you and shadow are w/w, I kinda think you bus for the easy town credit there and just let him hang too, but again that's the basis of a relatively soft TR on you.

[mhsmith0]

Amongst Ladies I have Maria/MDS town. Nahdia is the IC. Vedith seems town tonally. Idk about Parama.
Pie is nullish town. Inspector nullish scum and Kagami scum.

Gents the scum pool is [SAD, Mh, Gamma]
Everyone else is town by POE

Since you don't really have strongly defined town reads, what is driving your suspicion of me and SAD?

I see

SAD I don't play from your book of how to play mafia. So what you do as scum doesn't apply to me. But thanks for scum claiming with that vote.

SAD, you're a misrepping moron. What I clearly meant was that I'd be okay with my lynch only if I had Maria as scum. I have her as town so I'm absolutely not okay with my lynch.

on SAD, not much other commentary from a quick ISO skim.

Also, thoughts on SAD's postings at me? If you think we're teammates, then that's just theater right? What makes them look like theater to you?

[mhsmith0]

Maria TRs Dunnstral. I'm not so confident about him. Dunn is more townier when he is scum and his scum game is reading everyone as town(exaggeration. Try to get the point). This is from my exp with him.

I've played with wolf!Dunn once and it was while he was still doing his hyperaggressive/spammy playstyle, so was kinda hard to read (wolves swept ). i don't think I have a great meta on him, was null on him in that one and was kinda null on him in recent game when he was a mason.

[mhsmith0]

FWIW pie very much remains a null for me as well. I kinda expect us both to start getting going more soon, but at least so far I really don't see anything here or in PT that I can really read her on.

Some of the stuff SAD said about me was misreppy, but in such an obviously misreppy way (like the idea that I talked setup and nothing else) that I feel like it's likelier to come from a town who's being pissy and lazy about paying attention to the details instead of a wolf who is actually trying to push my mislynch. I suppose i could tinfoil about the idea that he's trying to fake spew me clear because he's partners with pie but not really feeling that one rn.

[mhsmith0]

how he keeps saying nobody has reads when that is not the case.
His complaints about there being too many useless posts to read just feel links fake and scum who doesn't want to read anything. I myself have complained about there being too many posts to read as scum because I literally don't give a shit what town are talking about but I need to read it anyway because I can't afford to slip and that is boring as fuck.

You its because you haven't been Town telling like you generally do when you are town. IIRC you love being VT so I expected much more from you.

Part of it was because I just ate my first mislynch in the open game dunn was in and it was more annoying than motivating. I also kinda expected this one to actually take a couple of days to start since I didn't have super high availability on weekend and early week. Should be improving later this week and especially this weekend. Which sucks I guess for people who want to blitz it but *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

Maria TRs Dunnstral. I'm not so confident about him. Dunn is more townier when he is scum and his scum game is reading everyone as town(exaggeration. Try to get the point). This is from my exp with him.

I've played with wolf!Dunn once and it was while he was still doing his hyperaggressive/spammy playstyle, so was kinda hard to read (wolves swept ). i don't think I have a great meta on him, was null on him in that one and was kinda null on him in recent game when he was a mason.

I was in that game lol.
I kept defending ploben.
#Ranger_sucks

At least you weren't town with her in open 642. If you want to see not so much lol village but lazy village that doens't care at all, read that one. She was talking about it being her worst game ever, while making literally zero effort to actually improve her performance. I was sure she was just bullshitting up WIFOM and doing damage control after her horrific strongarm D1 mislynch of a ridiculously obvious villager. Alas it wasn't.

[mhsmith0]

Alright, I'm down for dunn. [unofficial]

ok,

Accept Dunn.

This should be interesting.

Grand total of 3 minutes to decide.

Actually I kinda want to know from all the ladies who didn't talk about it ITT:

What made you accept your partners, both in terms of who you picked and when (especially those that made a relatively quick choice)?

[mhsmith0]

btw, on my end I picked pie because she's a veteran and seemingly competent player and I thought it'd be interesting to chat w her. Not sure why she picked me yet tho.

[mhsmith0]

Lol I'm starting to wonder if smith-pie is the only hood where both sides aren't just TRing each other.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: Gamma

This flip provides most info right now.

Townslip

explain?

[mhsmith0]

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with a "townslip". I guess I'd agree that it's slightly ballsy play if buddies, but the WIFOM of it (especially if Gamma lynch feels inevitable, which it might to a buddy) is at most somewhat clearing instead of massively soi.

[mhsmith0]

What was her reaction in PT?

[mhsmith0]

hmm, k

[mhsmith0]

I see shadow's asking bad questions again.

[mhsmith0]

aaaaaaaa this game is escaping me and i've been here the whole time aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

It went that way

[mhsmith0]

Pathetic shade throwing ^
That's how I read it and why exactly would scum! Vedith leave exactly

Scum!Vedith almost certainly wouldn't leave, unless he felt lynch inevitable and wanted to cut off discussion (and it's pretty early for that). So why ask the question?

[mhsmith0]

Smith flipped scum
you're just nitpicking at this point

Wait, so you think that was actually a useful questino on shadow's part? How?

[mhsmith0]

Scum laeving removes some VCA

No, no, this is a good point. All wolves should leave immediately, is clearly optimal play

[mhsmith0]

I don't see a problem with the question but you're acting like it was fucking stupid

Because it actually was "fucking stupid"
1) Gamma clearly meant "going forward in future games i'll tunnel you"
2) The only real use of poking gamma on "If you are Town and you leave" would have been trying to see what Gamma's read of Vedith was and why, except instead of that Shadow asked an insipid question that was essentially just a self-answering "well he wouldn't leave as scum" point

[mhsmith0]

Mh is trying really hard to build something out of nothing.

Smith: Shadow asked a stupid quesiton
Smith gets pushed on it
Smith: here's why that question was stupid

[mhsmith0]

FUCK IT
I WILL LYNCH MYSELF RIGHT NOW IF YOU DO NOT PROMISE TO NEVER LEAVE
YOUR TOWNCRED IS GONE

if you think he's a possible wolf, push a case on him and see where it goes instead of suiciding like a dumbass.

(smith does more setup talk)

[mhsmith0]

FUCK IT
I WILL LYNCH MYSELF RIGHT NOW IF YOU DO NOT PROMISE TO NEVER LEAVE
YOUR TOWNCRED IS GONE

if you think he's a possible wolf, push a case on him and see where it goes instead of suiciding like a dumbass.

(smith does more setup talk)

Smith's done fuck all this game.

It's true, I've literally done setup spec and nothing else, just ask SAD.

[mhsmith0]

will be back tonight and will actually read through the thread. that will be super fun i'm sure.

[mhsmith0]

Vedith, before you leave, consider the possibility of all 4 of us being Town. We need to lynch elsewhere to see if we're being set up before we make any final calls.

oh, you're scum
VOTE: gamma

[mhsmith0]

Obviously the risk there is that people WON'T be able to come to accords adn we'll end up losing because town can't get their shit together and agree on a lynch.

This is my main issue. With how the dynamic between me/Vedith and MariaR/ShadowStep is, lynching in first dance IS in our best interest so we can sort some slots before we enter the crunch time of second dance.

^this was gamma's old opinion btw, now just a generic "maybe we shoudl lynch elsewhere" (while still voting SS and not pushing elsewhere)

[mhsmith0]

Obviously the risk there is that people WON'T be able to come to accords adn we'll end up losing because town can't get their shit together and agree on a lynch.

This is my main issue. With how the dynamic between me/Vedith and MariaR/ShadowStep is, lynching in first dance IS in our best interest so we can sort some slots before we enter the crunch time of second dance.

^this was gamma's old opinion btw, now just a generic "maybe we shoudl lynch elsewhere" (while still voting SS and not pushing elsewhere)

I am pushing elsewhere. I'm not voting elsewhere because EVERYONE'S STUCK ON THE SAME THREE WAGONS

Yes, definitely not possible to start a new wagon and push an actual case.

[mhsmith0]

If Vedith does decide to be an idiot and leave PLEASE think before blindly wagoning Shadow/MariaR.

I can't even tell if he's spewing them town or wolf here though

[mhsmith0]

BECAUSE I THINK THEY COULD BE ALL TOWN
I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE NOT IN A FALSE DICHOTOMY/TRICHOTOMY

Yeah but that's just generic. What makes you think that it's LIKELY that we have v/v/v wagons?

[mhsmith0]

Mh is trying really hard to build something out of nothing.

Hey, here's a crazy thought. NO ONE FREAKING SUICIDE ANYMORE! Why is this so hard to understand?

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: No Lynch

fuck it
VOTE: no lynch, go to night

[mhsmith0]

"Smith baited vedith into suiciding"
^citation needed

[mhsmith0]

Vedith, before you leave, consider the possibility of all 4 of us being Town. We need to lynch elsewhere to see if we're being set up before we make any final calls.

oh, you're scum
VOTE: gamma

Obviously the risk there is that people WON'T be able to come to accords adn we'll end up losing because town can't get their shit together and agree on a lynch.

This is my main issue. With how the dynamic between me/Vedith and MariaR/ShadowStep is, lynching in first dance IS in our best interest so we can sort some slots before we enter the crunch time of second dance.

^this was gamma's old opinion btw, now just a generic "maybe we shoudl lynch elsewhere" (while still voting SS and not pushing elsewhere)

Obviously the risk there is that people WON'T be able to come to accords adn we'll end up losing because town can't get their shit together and agree on a lynch.

This is my main issue. With how the dynamic between me/Vedith and MariaR/ShadowStep is, lynching in first dance IS in our best interest so we can sort some slots before we enter the crunch time of second dance.

^this was gamma's old opinion btw, now just a generic "maybe we shoudl lynch elsewhere" (while still voting SS and not pushing elsewhere)

I am pushing elsewhere. I'm not voting elsewhere because EVERYONE'S STUCK ON THE SAME THREE WAGONS

Yes, definitely not possible to start a new wagon and push an actual case.

If Vedith does decide to be an idiot and leave PLEASE think before blindly wagoning Shadow/MariaR.

I can't even tell if he's spewing them town or wolf here though

BECAUSE I THINK THEY COULD BE ALL TOWN
I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE NOT IN A FALSE DICHOTOMY/TRICHOTOMY

Yeah but that's just generic. What makes you think that it's LIKELY that we have v/v/v wagons?

My posts between start of gamma push and gamma lynch. "Baiting" vedith into suiciding was where exactly?

[mhsmith0]

I fele like saying "I barely have scumreads and I'm considering my partner" is different because you're bound to be called out on bs if you're doing that and then asked why you aren't going harder for your partner, which will make things awk.

I bet people have asked her why she wasn't going after her partner then right?

[mhsmith0]

Does anyone have meta/history with pie? Does she play similar to Equinox? Because that's how I get the feeling from her posts and I feel like just reading her how I try to read Equinox because I have an extremely hard time distinguishing scum from town from that playstyle.

Pie has a fairly straightforward 2013 style and is a competent scum player. I don't know equinox well enough to comment on similarities.

If I were to guess, I'd say town-pie.

What in partuclar makes you think this? Like, specific posts that ping you town, or the way she's posted, or something else? She remains utterly null to me so far which is kinda annoying.

[mhsmith0]

Pathetic shade throwing ^
That's how I read it and why exactly would scum! Vedith leave exactly

Scum!Vedith almost certainly wouldn't leave, unless he felt lynch inevitable and wanted to cut off discussion (and it's pretty early for that). So why ask the question?

That's utterly stupid. The point was shadow was asking a stupid question and I was explaining why. Reading a bait attempt there is crazy reachy.

[mhsmith0]

Also how could you miss the point discussed from 2305? You say that she's bound be be called out for potential BS and yet she HASNT been called out and even questioned for the lack of push on me, which basically invalidates your point.

So far there seems to be no curiosity about why she isn't pushing me, so why would you think it's "inevitable" that scum!her would get pushback if it's a bs'd thing?

[mhsmith0]

The problem with that idea is "later on". Pie hasn't positioned herself for a lengthy run here, which means that if she's a wolf, she's probably either going to try and get through a couple more mislynches before she goes, or she's willing to get bussed for town credit.

So "pie not playing to be the deep wolf" is I think probably accurate, but that doesn't actually make her town. I can see the argument that it comes more from a town mindset, but the fact remains the she HASNT gotten a push on that issue, which means that it's reasonably likely that she won't get flak in the very near future.

Ps the large quantity of posts in the game so far gives decent odds of that one being forgotten later on as well, which means that it'd be a very effective wolf post if from a wolf, but isn't disqualifying.

[mhsmith0]

@scout:
It looks like youv only had one scum game on site (excluding marathon)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
And that was as a hydra. Is that correct?

[mhsmith0]

Just isod both scout and sad, they're probably a town pair, especially if THAT was scouts only scum game on record.

He's been tonally fine, content seems fine too, ditto most of his questions (apparently I'd found the really shitty one when I was on earlier).

Sad is super aggressive in a fairly hard to fake way, especially if he's been gone for years. Where he's been wrong it's more of an "I'm being an asshole" kind of wrong as opposed to using it to strongarm lynches or advance a partuclar agenda that I can see. 1721 was a good example of a town post, not for the content so much as for the contemptuous tone and the lack of an agenda, I.e. He's showing clear disgust with the game state, and it's being demonstrated rather than just stated, and it reads much more like an hijest expression of disgust than something played up for the crowd to create a TR.

[mhsmith0]

This feels like a rerun of this game. ISO Jester there and tell me if you still think he's scum.

@mds:
So it looks like you hydrad with jester as scum at
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69331
(That ones actually over btw, the one you referenced isn't, please don't discuss ongoing games)
So you ought to have an unusually fresh appreciation of his scum game. What exactly strikes you as being different here? Jester talked about why he trd you but I don't think I've seen the reverse.

[mhsmith0]

FUCK IT
I WILL LYNCH MYSELF RIGHT NOW IF YOU DO NOT PROMISE TO NEVER LEAVE
YOUR TOWNCRED IS GONE

if you think he's a possible wolf, push a case on him and see where it goes instead of suiciding like a dumbass.

(smith does more setup talk)

Smith's done fuck all this game.

@SAD: re your baiting theory. I'd made the point a couple times that suiciding was idiotic, and one of those times vedith explicitly engaged me on it. Note that this was made a little bit after my "baiting" post, and the point was front and center, as opposed to being just part of the discussion ala my issue with shadows stupid question.

[mhsmith0]

Now, with that said, I don't believe any town lady should so blithely accept a dance from any gentleman. This is a chance to weed out a villain in our midst, or force the villains to dance together at the least.

Speaking of which...2 mafia gentlemen, one lady? Vice versa? Anyone have any thoughts on what's more likely?

Found the first scum. First, town have no bussiness pairing with IC cause that doesn't amount to them solving the game in any way. That overblown explanation in #98 looks like nervous scum. Second, that 'innocent' setup spec question looks like taken straight outta scumbook.

Pedit I can't fucking post cause every time I hit submit there's a new post. Please

Slight wolf equity for this post, since it's a bit over-explained and essentially boils down to scum-reading a bunch of null things.

HS stop using activity as a fucking indicator of anything. I'm at work not being able to keep up with such volume of posting with the little time I have right now. I post when I decide it's time, if you think you'll get towncred for calling me out then you're wrong. Right now it looks like you're spamming for the sake of it.
And I'm not a "her", fuck off.

Ditto, but here for beetlejuicing and ignoring the primary accusation (post 146 itself, including the distancing logic) in favor of defending against just the activity portion.

I'm not townleaning vedith.
Please read the thread.

That post literally does not even make sense. That's an empty jab at a stone wall.

I will happily answer any questions you have but I must ask you to word them a little more legibly.

Please contain your fucking ego cause I seriously have enough of you discrediting what I say by making that same shit argument of "being scared" and "avoiding the thread" based on nothing but activity. I saw what I thought was discrepancy, asked you to elaborate, why can't you do just that instead of acting all superior and shit?

Ignores what HS said, instead defends against activity charge.

Yeah, you're not attacking me at all.
Ok restating it so you understand

HS SAY VEDITH BAD CAUSE VEDITH DULL
VEDITH ACT DULL HS SAY VEDITH GOOD
IF JESTER WRONG OK JUST ASK

I was gonna say this was wrong on first read but jesters correct, and after seeing that, 1109 was a pretty good question to ask.

@HS to put it simply, this useless talk could've ended with your #1100 but you just had to provoke me in #1118. Get what I mean? Ok let's stop this.

I'm null on this one. I guess I can see interpreting 1118 as a provocation as being reasonable, but I view it more as a follow up to 1110, with the issue being lack of clarity, and HS then presuming that jester didn't swear because he couldn't.


Overall, jester had a sketchy opening but he's been improving, which is enough to not really give me massive motivation to see him dead. I'm concerned that I'm over-valuing a single particularly good question to HS and follow-up, but I guess I'd need to see exactly what the scum case here is, since this seems mainly null to me.

@jester: you've stated a few times that you think shadow is town. What's driving this read? You've stated it a bunch of times but haven't explained it yet, and given that he's a player under suspicion, I feel like this should be a priority given your contrarian take.

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith who do you scumread?

Don't know tbh. Was hoping I'd get something interesting from scout-sad but they seem villagery, was hoping I'd get a good case on jester-mds but jester became less shitty as the game continued instead of more shitty (still need to pay more attention to mds tho).

With the weakest pair now off the board (not to be a jerk about it but it's true, doubly so because vedith suicided for no good reason at all), I feel like the lack of obvious answers suggests that the scum team is relatively good, which is interesting from a world-building perspective but less so in terms of a "here's the answer" sort of thing.

Unless it's just shadow and either town is derping or he's actively being saved, I guess. Which is obviously possible but I kinda want to dig around for a better case on him beyond "he's asking a bunch of stupid questions".

Ps I knew it had day talk because I'd skimmed the prior version. Also because the setup makes no sense without Day talk given that the hoods have day talk. Also I've been skimming a good amount which is not really ideal but there's a shit ton of posts, and I've pretty regularly been falling behind. Try to poke at things that interest me, but nothing's really stuck so far, and gamma case which I thought was decent was wrong.

[mhsmith0]

posts like this and subsequent posts are why I think inspectorscout's body of work also looks pretty town. this is a kind of crazy kind of tinfoil thought process, but it actually has *some* basis in reality and has enough depth that it shows he isn't just making up bullshit, he's actually stopping to think about it and consider possibilities for what is going on.

it's difficult to fake things like this without having it just come across as really forced, unless you're a very experienced scum player.

or coached i guess, but I feel like that's getting pretty far into tinfoil territory, since I don't think I've ever seen wolves actually use day chat to rehearse a specific post like that and make sure it sounds right

[mhsmith0]

I'm being serious though. Half the town obviously has some level of scumread on us, and I don't think anybody *alive* is considering us town-town, but we aren't getting enough votes. The mafia are saving us for the final mislynch.

How to play to wincon in this setup, vs what people are actually likely to do, by smith

If you're a villager

If/when you feel your lynch is inevitable, you should still fight it and ensure that if you are lynched, maximal information is gained from the loss (and if it turns out your partner is a wolf, even better to actually have the process be an actual lynch)
Villagers will actually tend to give up because "I'm helping the town since I'm going down anyway" (even though they flagrantly aren't helping the town while doing this) or "screw you guys for suspecting me" (because it's easier than actually engaging meaningfully with the stated suspicions). This is because villagers tend to be lazy about considering what it means to be a villager, and/or tend to take self-destructive moves out of pique.

If you're a wolf

If/when you feel your lynch is inevitable, wolves should leave the dance to deprive town of useful voting information
Wolves will actually tend to fight their lynch though because they're survivalistic in nature, and/or underestimate the chance that they'll actually get lynched

This has been a PSA by smith. You're welcome.

[mhsmith0]

@Maria: It seems like you're being a bit survivalistic lately, which is a bit weird to me given how flagrantly you gave up in open 646. Am I over-valuing that one game in terms of your meta under fire? Are there other games you can point to where you're relatively more interested in fighting your lynch when town?

[mhsmith0]

@Maria: It seems like you're being a bit survivalistic lately, which is a bit weird to me given how flagrantly you gave up in open 646. Am I over-valuing that one game in terms of your meta under fire? Are there other games you can point to where you're relatively more interested in fighting your lynch when town?

In open 646 I didn't want to play that because I was getting attacked over and over again and I just didn't want to play that game

Can you point to other games where you DO fight your mislynch hard as town? Because I definitely get the sense you fight hard as wolf, and want to see if it's actually AI or if that really was a one-off thing that I shouldn't be worrying about as much.

[mhsmith0]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68243

you were in this game but you can basically look at any EM game to see I fight my lynch quite hard as either side

I was "in" that game in the sense of absorbing a loss due to lol village and a scum-sided setup (lol shadow bitching about that setup) while dying the night I subbed in, which was super fun.

But I'll take a look at that one I guess. Any others you can point to with that tendency? Not gonna go look for EM stuff tbh.

[mhsmith0]

Do you hate the town in this game?

[mhsmith0]

Because it doesn't help anything

and forces town to leave if they wanna have any influence over the game

. If we nl, people are gonna argue on the same matters tomorrow and nothing will change, apart from giving scum a free kill.

Please explain the bolded, because I don't understand what you're saying there. You just mean that people are forced to leave if they want to influence the game PRIOR TO the no lynch? Or something weirder and less clear?

[mhsmith0]

Sure it will. But leaving all power to scum is just bad play

I also don't understand this, since scum get one free kill and it's a question of whether it happens now or later.

[mhsmith0]

Given that you haven't been clear about what you're arguing, I fail to understand why you should expect me to undertand you perfectly.

Given that "let's have scum shoot now" or "let's have scum shoot after another lynch" seems to be a relatively unimportant question in my book, I'm also struggling to understand why you are representing that this is something you consider to be important.

[mhsmith0]

All no-lynch is going to do is make mafia kill the IC pair sooner rather than later. Last time I checked nobody was scumreading them, so we get literally no info from their flip, and we don't get any of their reads either.

This is an actual argument against no lynching.

That said, how certain are you about cerb being town? "Nobody was scumreading them" may be true, but there's a difference between "they're not a popular suspect" and "I agree with them not being a popular suspect", and skimming your iso it looks like you state a TR there more than you really discuss why you have a TR there.

[mhsmith0]

I want to have 2 flips and at least 1 lynch wagon to go over in my PT during intermission tbh and NL runs counterproductive to that

We really don't gain anything from NLing either

I don't consider it a particularly meaningful gain or loss, tbh.

I do find jester's "this forces town to leave" bit bizarre, since people can still argue against NL'ing (which very obviously influences the game), especially since we're pretty far from the NL hammer point right now.

[mhsmith0]

No Lynch [2] - Kagami, mhsmith0

Does it surprise anyone that these people in particular are behind the no-lynch fad? It doesn't surprise me.

P. Edit: I wrote Cerberus off as town really early and I haven't had any reason to distrust him since. I'm about 90% certain he's town. Why does it matter though? I'm positive the scum will boot them because they're never getting lynched, and the longer they stay the more info we can get out of them.

I shouldn't have to explain why no-lynch is a bad idea, it's just so obviously anti-town that the only explanation why *you* Smith would be pushing it, is that you're scum.

It obviously matters whether Cerb is town because if he's not, then someone else is getting shot, and that is in itself potentially interesting (and the data about "the pair that scum wanted dead instead of Nahdia-Cerb") is probably better to be outed earlier rather than later). Like if you're lock certain that Cerb is town, then yes, that's very likely going to be the NK, and we might as well get a bit more data before they die. But if you're NOT sure that cerb is town, then the NK gets more interesting, and the "well clearly we need to push back the NK" argument fails.

As far as explaining goes, you should always explain things. In this case, the argument against no lynching hinges on the presumption that cerb is town. In which case, it's probably worth examining that assumption to make sure it's correct, as opposed to just writing it off.

[mhsmith0]

Pedit:Pfft mhsmith, I'm super obvtown by now. :p

Find and lynch a wolf and I might agree with you. Until then I'm basically in "cerb gets a pass until after the wolves do or don't kill him, then I'll worry about sorting him if needed" mode.

[mhsmith0]

[mhsmith0]

@smith: meh. Reasonable way to prioritize things, but my entire NL thing should make me obvtown(since that would mean if I were scum, I would have to dodge even more lynches as a suspect) but whateva.

I mean that's like the epitome of WIFOM (and at some point, unless town is totally incompetent, wolves need to do SOMETHING where "I just wouldn't do it as wolf"), so not really in my book, but again not really a priority sort either.

Still need to actually slog through all this crap. Fortunately the weekend is a nice time to sit down and actually focus.

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith is getting more townpoints. i wish he'd post less setup spec though, that's like 90% of his iso :^)

Hey, I'm sure it's under 50% by now

I'd end setup talk at all if I was confident that no one else would game throw by suiciding, but since I'm not, it'll continue popping up.

I'm also a bit unsure about MDS's engagement with the NL discussion.

I shouldn't have to explain why no-lynch is a bad idea, it's just so obviously anti-town that the only explanation why *you* Smith would be pushing it, is that you're scum.

seems to imply that this is something she cares about, AND that it's a valid basis for suspicion of me, but her push on this idea being important and the push on me for disagreeing with her both kinda dropped off, and I'm not really sure why.
@MDS: discuss?

[mhsmith0]

@MDS: can you explain why you weren't voting for me yesterday but are doing so rn? What changed in between

I shouldn't have to explain why no-lynch is a bad idea, it's just so obviously anti-town that the only explanation why *you* Smith would be pushing it, is that you're scum.

and when you voted me? I can't tell if this is a delayed "I've lost all patience with smith" (i.e. it's the same case as yesterday but you just hadn't been voting then for whatever reason), or if somehow my question to you last night set you off, or something else. Clarify?

[mhsmith0]

Smith you seem to be all questions with very likely substance you seem much more relaxed when I modded for you
this doesn't seem like your town game

So you think that asking substantive questions is my wolf game? Or did you mean "little substance" instead of "likely"?

[mhsmith0]

@MR: Still not sure if you were typoing there or not. But do you think that 2597 was a bad question? If so, why? MDS was shading me, made a number of posts afterwards, and only today did she throw down a vote, and she isn't really pushing it with any conviction currently. It seems like a weird engagement to me, and I'm trying to figure out what she's up to. In that context, if you do think it was a bad question (presuming you meant "little" instead of "likely"), I guess I'd want to know why you think it was bad. Discuss?

[mhsmith0]

Nothing really, I still think you're scum, just Kagami is *slightly* less scum than you now (after pieguyn's explanation). +I don't think her wagon would get much support.

Actually i kinda buy this as plausible.

[mhsmith0]

But hey smith, the fact you only grace us with attention after a vote appears on you kind of says a lot.

Spoiler: pre-vote attention

Did Smith just fall one level further down the scumpile for everyone, or was it just for me? I felt like that jab at inspector was incredibly far-fetched.

It's probably just you, but the inspector WK is interesting.

Oh I just figured out WK means whiteknighting. Lmao I'm slow.

MhSmith, you gave me your walls of text explaining why townies make careless mistakes a lot more than wolves, and why digging into those instead of analysing votes, stances and reads is something a wolf would attempt. So I thought you were bullshitting us. My scumread on you has nothing to do with my read on inspector or Arthur.

Yes, townies make careless mistakes more than wolves. But IS is representing this as an intentional process, not a careless mistake. So that's not really a relevant defense. Is it possible that he's a townie who actually believes waht he's saying, or that he's a townie simply too proud to admit a fuckup? Sure. But it's also entirely possible that he's a wolf that is struggling to defend what he's done.

What's your scumread on me based on again?

@MhSmith: I just thought it was suspicious that you latched onto that when so much stuff has happened that you could have analysed instead. I saw it and I thought he was derping. I was wondering why you didn't give him the benefit of the doubt and instead looked for something more substantial to bring up. It looked opportunistic to me.

Besides, I'm confident in your ability to easily make out pretty much anything to be a scumslip so I'm not going to trust you on that particular thing. Sorry. When you get to casing people based on readonomics and wagonomics, then we can talk.

I basically latched onto it because I was here and it happened. Like I said, will be re-reading other stuff later. Derp is possible too, but that's not what immediately came to mind, especially when he admitted that he knew full well Nahdia was the IC. It looked like the imitation of a town process, by asking a question that looks useful at a cursory glance but that is actually just busywork.

I also don't really buy much into "scumslips" for the most part. My scum-hunting tends to be more behavioral, as well as data-driven stuff like wagonomics (though obviously you can't get much there before flips).

VOTE: Gamma

This flip provides most info right now.

Townslip

explain?

This feels like a rerun of this game. ISO Jester there and tell me if you still think he's scum.

@mds:
So it looks like you hydrad with jester as scum at
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69331
(That ones actually over btw, the one you referenced isn't, please don't discuss ongoing games)
So you ought to have an unusually fresh appreciation of his scum game. What exactly strikes you as being different here? Jester talked about why he trd you but I don't think I've seen the reverse.

All no-lynch is going to do is make mafia kill the IC pair sooner rather than later. Last time I checked nobody was scumreading them, so we get literally no info from their flip, and we don't get any of their reads either.

This is an actual argument against no lynching.

That said, how certain are you about cerb being town? "Nobody was scumreading them" may be true, but there's a difference between "they're not a popular suspect" and "I agree with them not being a popular suspect", and skimming your iso it looks like you state a TR there more than you really discuss why you have a TR there.

No Lynch [2] - Kagami, mhsmith0

Does it surprise anyone that these people in particular are behind the no-lynch fad? It doesn't surprise me.

P. Edit: I wrote Cerberus off as town really early and I haven't had any reason to distrust him since. I'm about 90% certain he's town. Why does it matter though? I'm positive the scum will boot them because they're never getting lynched, and the longer they stay the more info we can get out of them.

I shouldn't have to explain why no-lynch is a bad idea, it's just so obviously anti-town that the only explanation why *you* Smith would be pushing it, is that you're scum.

It obviously matters whether Cerb is town because if he's not, then someone else is getting shot, and that is in itself potentially interesting (and the data about "the pair that scum wanted dead instead of Nahdia-Cerb") is probably better to be outed earlier rather than later). Like if you're lock certain that Cerb is town, then yes, that's very likely going to be the NK, and we might as well get a bit more data before they die. But if you're NOT sure that cerb is town, then the NK gets more interesting, and the "well clearly we need to push back the NK" argument fails.

As far as explaining goes, you should always explain things. In this case, the argument against no lynching hinges on the presumption that cerb is town. In which case, it's probably worth examining that assumption to make sure it's correct, as opposed to just writing it off.

mhsmith is getting more townpoints. i wish he'd post less setup spec though, that's like 90% of his iso :^)

Hey, I'm sure it's under 50% by now

I'd end setup talk at all if I was confident that no one else would game throw by suiciding, but since I'm not, it'll continue popping up.

I'm also a bit unsure about MDS's engagement with the NL discussion.

I shouldn't have to explain why no-lynch is a bad idea, it's just so obviously anti-town that the only explanation why *you* Smith would be pushing it, is that you're scum.

seems to imply that this is something she cares about, AND that it's a valid basis for suspicion of me, but her push on this idea being important and the push on me for disagreeing with her both kinda dropped off, and I'm not really sure why.
@MDS: discuss?

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith is getting more townpoints. i wish he'd post less setup spec though, that's like 90% of his iso :^)

Hey, I'm sure it's under 50% by now

I'd end setup talk at all if I was confident that no one else would game throw by suiciding, but since I'm not, it'll continue popping up.

I'm also a bit unsure about MDS's engagement with the NL discussion.

I shouldn't have to explain why no-lynch is a bad idea, it's just so obviously anti-town that the only explanation why *you* Smith would be pushing it, is that you're scum.

seems to imply that this is something she cares about, AND that it's a valid basis for suspicion of me, but her push on this idea being important and the push on me for disagreeing with her both kinda dropped off, and I'm not really sure why.
@MDS: discuss?

Incidentally, I find your explanation kinda plausible, but at the same time the above post is effectively making the "if MDS actually thought I was a wolf she'd be voting for me" (or pushing against me with more content I guess) point. And then you voted for me AFTER I was calling you out for not seeming to have conviction with your push, and did so more or less as just throwing down a vote without specific discussion.

Which made me suspect that you were doing so in order to fit into the paradigm of "if you were town you'd be voting me given your stated suspicion" that I'd already established.

[mhsmith0]

2606: Sorry, make that "vote or FoS"*. Doesn't really change much. Your entrance and engagement with me coinciding with my vote just stood out too much for me to not notice.

2607: Umm, no, I voted you because you dropped lower than Kagami in the scum meter. Which I explained. Does that clear things up now?

2606: except a number of my posts at you did not coincide with your stated suspicion on me (which should be kind of obvious just from reading the ones that I quoted)
2607: the point of that one was to explain what I was getting at to begin with (i.e. it's as much of a response to MR's

"smith why you asking stupid questions" post than anything else). Like I said, I find your explanation plausible, which makes it null rather than wolfy (a delayed explanation would have been worse, but given that it came relatively quickly, makes it more plausible that it was the actual explanation and not just something you made up in order to have an answer)

[mhsmith0]

"No one is obvious scum, the game is well over 2k posts already, and really high post count games are harder for me to solve barring fuckups by wolves"
^actual explanation

Out of curiosity, have you ever read any of my scum games? Either on this site or off?

[mhsmith0]

PS It's actually kinda funny you're making the inactivity case on me given that I was basically mislynched in that game almost entirely due to inactivity (with a side of trans strongarming it out of OMGUS, as well as lol masons). What makes you think that activity is AI for me?

[mhsmith0]

Smith you seem to be all questions with very likely substance you seem much more relaxed when I modded for you
this doesn't seem like your town game

So you think that asking substantive questions is my wolf game? Or did you mean "little substance" instead of "likely"?

oh I did mean little thank you

Cool now do you still think my question in 2597 was crap after my explanation? Why or why not? That seems to be the one that set you off, so I'm presuming that you thought it was a really bad question if you're going to tell me that I'm asking fluff questions right after that one.

[mhsmith0]

@MDS:
PPS http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
was my iso in that game. Just re-skimming, it looks like I wasn't really doing much of anything for well over a full week (and that's after my sub in); my content only really starts to increase notably on Nov 14. So do you actually think I was good on content pre 11/14, or if not, then given explicit knowledge that periods of low activity is well within my town game, why do you think that my lower activity level this game is AI instead of just null?

[mhsmith0]

It's just one that tipped me off cause I'm getting such a emotionless vibe from you you don't feel like you really care for the answer or you're curious it seems just emotionless and cold.

So you're reading emotion from the question then? Not substance?

I guess I'm also curious why you think that I don't care about the answer to that one, especially given the explanation I'd offered, which IMO reads pretty clearly (given the explanation) as "hey I think you're just hopping onto me because I told you to" (without IMO being sufficiently obvious about it as to give her a really easy answer to it). Because that seems to me to be both a good question to ask as well as one that I actually did care about, and I don't really see why you think that's not the case.

[mhsmith0]

Spoiler:

It's just one that tipped me off cause I'm getting such a emotionless vibe from you you don't feel like you really care for the answer or you're curious it seems just emotionless and cold.

Did Smith just fall one level further down the scumpile for everyone, or was it just for me? I felt like that jab at inspector was incredibly far-fetched.

It's probably just you, but the inspector WK is interesting.

After I expressed suspicion.

Oh I just figured out WK means whiteknighting. Lmao I'm slow.

MhSmith, you gave me your walls of text explaining why townies make careless mistakes a lot more than wolves, and why digging into those instead of analysing votes, stances and reads is something a wolf would attempt. So I thought you were bullshitting us. My scumread on you has nothing to do with my read on inspector or Arthur.

Yes, townies make careless mistakes more than wolves. But IS is representing this as an intentional process, not a careless mistake. So that's not really a relevant defense. Is it possible that he's a townie who actually believes waht he's saying, or that he's a townie simply too proud to admit a fuckup? Sure. But it's also entirely possible that he's a wolf that is struggling to defend what he's done.

What's your scumread on me based on again?

That's part of a conversation, still about my scumread on you.

@MhSmith: I just thought it was suspicious that you latched onto that when so much stuff has happened that you could have analysed instead. I saw it and I thought he was derping. I was wondering why you didn't give him the benefit of the doubt and instead looked for something more substantial to bring up. It looked opportunistic to me.

Besides, I'm confident in your ability to easily make out pretty much anything to be a scumslip so I'm not going to trust you on that particular thing. Sorry. When you get to casing people based on readonomics and wagonomics, then we can talk.

I basically latched onto it because I was here and it happened. Like I said, will be re-reading other stuff later. Derp is possible too, but that's not what immediately came to mind, especially when he admitted that he knew full well Nahdia was the IC. It looked like the imitation of a town process, by asking a question that looks useful at a cursory glance but that is actually just busywork.

I also don't really buy much into "scumslips" for the most part. My scum-hunting tends to be more behavioral, as well as data-driven stuff like wagonomics (though obviously you can't get much there before flips).

Still part of a conversation about my scum read.

VOTE: Gamma

This flip provides most info right now.

Townslip

explain?

This one I can acknowledge, although it was pretty glaring by itself.

This feels like a rerun of this game. ISO Jester there and tell me if you still think he's scum.

@mds:
So it looks like you hydrad with jester as scum at
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69331
(That ones actually over btw, the one you referenced isn't, please don't discuss ongoing games)
So you ought to have an unusually fresh appreciation of his scum game. What exactly strikes you as being different here? Jester talked about why he trd you but I don't think I've seen the reverse.

This one I can acknowledge, too.

All no-lynch is going to do is make mafia kill the IC pair sooner rather than later. Last time I checked nobody was scumreading them, so we get literally no info from their flip, and we don't get any of their reads either.

This is an actual argument against no lynching.

That said, how certain are you about cerb being town? "Nobody was scumreading them" may be true, but there's a difference between "they're not a popular suspect" and "I agree with them not being a popular suspect", and skimming your iso it looks like you state a TR there more than you really discuss why you have a TR there.

This was me interjecting and you responding.

No Lynch [2] - Kagami, mhsmith0

Does it surprise anyone that these people in particular are behind the no-lynch fad? It doesn't surprise me.

P. Edit: I wrote Cerberus off as town really early and I haven't had any reason to distrust him since. I'm about 90% certain he's town. Why does it matter though? I'm positive the scum will boot them because they're never getting lynched, and the longer they stay the more info we can get out of them.

I shouldn't have to explain why no-lynch is a bad idea, it's just so obviously anti-town that the only explanation why *you* Smith would be pushing it, is that you're scum.

It obviously matters whether Cerb is town because if he's not, then someone else is getting shot, and that is in itself potentially interesting (and the data about "the pair that scum wanted dead instead of Nahdia-Cerb") is probably better to be outed earlier rather than later). Like if you're lock certain that Cerb is town, then yes, that's very likely going to be the NK, and we might as well get a bit more data before they die. But if you're NOT sure that cerb is town, then the NK gets more interesting, and the "well clearly we need to push back the NK" argument fails.

As far as explaining goes, you should always explain things. In this case, the argument against no lynching hinges on the presumption that cerb is town. In which case, it's probably worth examining that assumption to make sure it's correct, as opposed to just writing it off.

More responding to my scumread on you.

mhsmith is getting more townpoints. i wish he'd post less setup spec though, that's like 90% of his iso :^)

Hey, I'm sure it's under 50% by now

I'd end setup talk at all if I was confident that no one else would game throw by suiciding, but since I'm not, it'll continue popping up.

I'm also a bit unsure about MDS's engagement with the NL discussion.

I shouldn't have to explain why no-lynch is a bad idea, it's just so obviously anti-town that the only explanation why *you* Smith would be pushing it, is that you're scum.

seems to imply that this is something she cares about, AND that it's a valid basis for suspicion of me, but her push on this idea being important and the push on me for disagreeing with her both kinda dropped off, and I'm not really sure why.
@MDS: discuss?

More talking about my suspicion on you.

So that's... 2/8 posts that weren't directly involved with my scumread on you. The other big stack of your posts goes towards your scumread on inspector... which was nitpicking at its finest.

No, that really isn't arguing in your favour, Smith.

PS It's actually kinda funny you're making the inactivity case on me given that I was basically mislynched in that game almost entirely due to inactivity (with a side of trans strongarming it out of OMGUS, as well as lol masons). What makes you think that activity is AI for me?

I wasn't talking specifically about activity, I was talking about what portion of your activity is involved with solving the game. It feels like it's a lot less than your efforts at self-preservation.

[/spoiler=]
re:

I wasn't talking specifically about activity, I was talking about what portion of your activity is involved with solving the game. It feels like it's a lot less than your efforts at self-preservation.

1) involved your potential chainsaw of scout, but I can see why you'd think it was self-focused
2) more directly focused on scout than on your push on me
3) discussion about what I was doing, this one was defense
4) as you acknowledge, was fine
5) ditto
6) the point of it was to get at why you thought what you said you thought, as the implication here was cerb was strong town (if he's a wolf, then obviously the wolves don't shoot there)
7) ditto, and it's notable that your TR of cerb was relatively light on explanation.
8) you can interpret it as self-focused I guess, but the question remained valid and the point was to engage you on why, if this conversation was so important to you, you let boht the "don't NL" and the "I think smith is scum because of his position on it" takes die down

So I guess I'll probably sign off on the idea that I'm talking more about myself than usual, and why you might read into it a bit, although I do think you're stretching in spots.

[mhsmith0]

lol sorry about busted spoiler tag there
@mod feel free to fix

[mhsmith0]

@MDS:
PPS http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
was my iso in that game. Just re-skimming, it looks like I wasn't really doing much of anything for well over a full week (and that's after my sub in); my content only really starts to increase notably on Nov 14. So do you actually think I was good on content pre 11/14, or if not, then given explicit knowledge that periods of low activity is well within my town game, why do you think that my lower activity level this game is AI instead of just null?

That game was you being quality over quantity (on Day 2 anyway). This game I'm not seeing either from you.

OK now compare the stuff BEFORE 11/14 to this game. There's a pretty low quantity of posts in that category.

[mhsmith0]

I don't have a vote meta, sometimes I vote often and loosely, sometimes I abstain from being on lynch wagons for the whole game if I feel I'd put my hand to mislynches (see: Surrealism)

Do you do that as VT too? You were seer in that one, so I'm not sure how relevant it is as a comparison basis.

[mhsmith0]

When I'm not sure the target will flip scum, yeah.

Can you point to a VT game like that? It was pretty easy for you to find such a game where you were a town PR, so I'm curious if you've got a good analogue as VT as well.

[mhsmith0]

@smith I can't tbh cause that's what I started doing recently after several lolhammers on town and self-hammers. Still, I don't think it's a good idea to form your scumread on me basing on meta, especially that you've never played with me before. The only person here who could read me properly was Vedith, apart from Mini.

Right now the primary issue I'm having isn't your meta directly (i.e. me comparing you to your meta, which I haven't paid nearly enough attention in order to do so accurately/confidently), but rather the fact that you're self-meta'ing, and were fine coming up with what you represented as a good example, but that was you as town PR, which for many people is different than their VT play.

Specifically, you said

I don't have a vote meta, sometimes I vote often and loosely, sometimes I abstain from being on lynch wagons for the whole game if I feel I'd put my hand to mislynches (see: Surrealism)

When I'm not sure the target will flip scum, yeah.

which implies that vote-abstaning IS a game-style thing for you (at least sometimes, and implied to not simply be a recent thing). So, you should then be able to support your self-meta outside of games you were a town PR, correct? Or am I misreading you?

[mhsmith0]

But hey smith, the fact you only grace us with attention after a vote appears on you kind of says a lot.

So when you said "sometimes I abstain from being on lynch wagons for the whole game if I feel I'd put my hand to mislynches" what you really meant was "I've changed my playstyle, and even though I never used to do this, I'm going to start playing more like this going forward"? It just seems really weird that you'd word it as if it's something common that you'd do, and then be like "no wait nevermind, I just started doing this, and really I only did it once"

[mhsmith0]

The voting thing isn't so much a meta argument as a "this is a very convenient thing for scum to do" argument for which there's no meta counter argument for.

I don't understand why you're bringing up the PR thing, Smith, as the linked game doesn't actually address the concern. Shall I assume you didn't read it?

I looked at the first page, saw he was seer, and was like "lol this is totally irrelevant, as I wouldn't expect his seer play to be super comparable to his VT play". And since the comparison was irrelevant, I wasn't really interested to dig to see if the rest of his play addressed the argument since "he was seer there" itself should make it a mediocre at best defense.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: mhsmith0-pieguyn

voting for me, pie, or both?

[mhsmith0]

Because ___ ?

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: mhsmith-pieguyn

mhsmith is thoroughly underwhelming this game

^
that was your prior push on me, which is itself interesting since "smith isn't doing much" was essentially the logic used to mislynch me LAST game together, and I'd think that you more than anyone else would be naturally concerned about using the same logic here.

So, is it just that or more than that? If it's just that, why do you think it's not just null on me? And if it's more than that, what are your other reasons?

[mhsmith0]

When I'm not sure the target will flip scum, yeah.

Also the fact that you're not reading my posts and said something like "are me and pie the only ones who don't tr each other"

wrt 1893, read the last couple pages before that post. HS-Parama mutual TR, MR-shadow seemed pretty comfortable with each other (though re-skimming a TR wasn't explicit around that point), Gamma was hard TR'ing Vedith, and SAD-scout had been pro each other sometime back (IIRC Jester-MDS had been comfortable w each othertoo). So the idea that there were a bunch of seemingly cheap partner town reads floating around was IMO pretty accurate (though sure, you seem to be an exclusion from that).

[mhsmith0]

This too but I can see why you wouldn't want to quote it

I didn't say you weren't doing anything (as in lurking out)

You've been posting but it seems you post to not get lynched, rather than to find scum.

I don't know why you're confused by my vote, but you shouldn't be.

I'm kinda curious about this one. What exactly do you mean by that? There seems to be an implication here that I'm being fundamentally survivalistic (bandwagoning? UTR? something else?), or that my questions or just for show, or something similar. What exactly are you seeing that makes you think this?

[mhsmith0]

I had a lot of posts that was the exclusion from that, you didn't acknowledge any of them and said that so I assume you hadn't read them or cared.

Probably because I hadn't done much more than skim them, which is consistent with my having not really paid that much attention to you. In your opinion, is having (or at least displaying) a lack of awareness of what you've been saying representative of my caring too much about pushes on me (and by extension, your push)?

[mhsmith0]

I didn't say you were survivalistic, I said you were posting to not get lynched (i.e. you're not lurking out because you don't want to be "policy" lynched)
It doesn't look like you're trying to figure the game out (in terms of player's alignments; setup spec doesn't matter)

So your take on me is that I'm basically just active lurking then? Do my engagements on/about scout, gamma, and jester look like non-solving, or is it just that I haven't had enough of them?

PS I find it fascinating that "smith is mainly setup speccing" seems to be a continued perspective on this game, given how little I've actually been making such posts. Are people just sheeping SAD's "OMG smith is just setup speccing" stuff or have people actually been reading me and for real think this?

[mhsmith0]

which is consistent with my having not really paid that much attention to you.

Why?

Because you had nearly 400 posts and it's a pain to go through all of them, and I don't recall anything having especially pinged me as scummy while skimming. Why do you think that I should have been paying more attention to you?

[mhsmith0]

I'd define this as setup spec and not gamesolving.

Also, it looks like you're setting up here to justify pushes on people who fight their lynch (oh they must be scum)

And then you actually do that:

That post was setup-related, but relatively few of mine are. The point was they were a very clear minority of what I've done.

wrt fighting lynch, the point there was that towns SHOULD fight their lynch, instead of suiciding like idiots. It's true that town at times doesn't do that, but they should. Given that we already had one game-thrower suicide instead of fighting his lynch, I thought it was worth repeating the point that suiciding is beyond idiotic in this game. Thus the whole "villagers tend to act like idiots under pressure in this game but really shouldn't".

wrt Maria, that related to her specific meta, where in open 646 she not only didn't fight her lynch but actually self-hammered (and she knows full well how trash I think that play was, especially when I bitched to her in PM about burgerking doing the same trash play in the game she modded as her sonia alt). My point was that I wanted to know whether she could provide evidence on whether or not her performance in open 646 was a one-off, or whether it was actually reasonable to read into it. Given that "oh yeah __ __ and __ are games where I did this as town" was a potentially really easy response (and indeed she did provide self-meta on that point, though only on one game), I completely fail to see your argument there.
see

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68243

you were in this game but you can basically look at any EM game to see I fight my lynch quite hard as either side

Because you had nearly 400 posts and it's a pain to go through all of them, and I don't recall anything having especially pinged me as scummy while skimming. Why do you think that I should have been paying more attention to you?

So you're underestimating me even after stack the deck

No, I've realized that I'm not much good at reading you, and so you're not a primary focus. I'd be fine with POEing your slot if I had a bunch of strong town reads.

[mhsmith0]

Spoiler:

Do my engagements on/about scout, gamma, and jester look like non-solving, or is it just that I haven't had enough of them?

Stuff like this, which you link, doesn't look like you trying to figure things out.

Vedith, before you leave, consider the possibility of all 4 of us being Town. We need to lynch elsewhere to see if we're being set up before we make any final calls.

oh, you're scum
VOTE: gamma

Obviously the risk there is that people WON'T be able to come to accords adn we'll end up losing because town can't get their shit together and agree on a lynch.

This is my main issue. With how the dynamic between me/Vedith and MariaR/ShadowStep is, lynching in first dance IS in our best interest so we can sort some slots before we enter the crunch time of second dance.

^this was gamma's old opinion btw, now just a generic "maybe we shoudl lynch elsewhere" (while still voting SS and not pushing elsewhere)

Obviously the risk there is that people WON'T be able to come to accords adn we'll end up losing because town can't get their shit together and agree on a lynch.

This is my main issue. With how the dynamic between me/Vedith and MariaR/ShadowStep is, lynching in first dance IS in our best interest so we can sort some slots before we enter the crunch time of second dance.

^this was gamma's old opinion btw, now just a generic "maybe we shoudl lynch elsewhere" (while still voting SS and not pushing elsewhere)

I am pushing elsewhere. I'm not voting elsewhere because EVERYONE'S STUCK ON THE SAME THREE WAGONS

Yes, definitely not possible to start a new wagon and push an actual case.

If Vedith does decide to be an idiot and leave PLEASE think before blindly wagoning Shadow/MariaR.

I can't even tell if he's spewing them town or wolf here though

BECAUSE I THINK THEY COULD BE ALL TOWN
I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE NOT IN A FALSE DICHOTOMY/TRICHOTOMY

Yeah but that's just generic. What makes you think that it's LIKELY that we have v/v/v wagons?

My posts between start of gamma push and gamma lynch. "Baiting" vedith into suiciding was where exactly?

2304 was questioning SAD on his ridiculous assertion that I was "baiting" vedith into suiciding. Which of 2157 (scum-reading gamma for that post), 2160 (explaining my read), 2166 (attacking gamma's self-defense), 2167 (reaction to what looked like WIFOM on a wolf who might have been about to die), 2178 (pushing back against Gamma's generic point that they COULD be v/v/v and asking him to substantiate why he thought it was likely [since a generic "well anything's possible" sort of point was very obviously useless] ).

Which of those look like non-solving to you? I'll grant you 2167 as just a reaction post not being useful, but the others look pretty solvey to me.

[mhsmith0]

FWIW I think it's bizarre that MDS and Dunn are pushing me (after open 658 I feel like they'd naturally be the LEAST likely people here to be pushing on me), while most others aren't. I feel like if pie is town, at least one of MDS/Dunn are decently likely to be wolves too just from the push. Really not sure what it means in a world where pie is also a wolf though; like, it could be weird distancing I guess, but I'm super not sold on that being necessarily the case.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: mhsmith-pieguyn

mhsmith is thoroughly underwhelming this game

No, Smith, I don't think it's at all bizarre that both of us are pushing you. I really am not seeing the Smith from 658 here, with the wagonomics and the predictions. You were also much less defensive in that game.

Why oh why did you have to roll scum? This game would've been so much easier if you were on our side.

It'd be nice is there was good voting data I could use to actually analyze. Instead Vedith suicided, completely fucking up any kind of useful data to be gotten from the first death. Like, when a d1 wagon really gets going, it can be super interesting to see who's doing what and why, who's pushing against it, who gets nervous, who's willing to hammer, etc. Suiciding prevents that kind of data from ever existing (and that's the data you REALLY need in order to solve the game down the road), which is why it's such absolute garbage play in this format. So if lack of wagonomics-based reads is a concern, go ahead and blame Vedith for game-throwing, because I'm not going to eat the blame for that one.

As far as the rest goes, I do think it's bizarre that the push against me is coming largely from you two, who I would think should know me a bit better than most others here. Like, "smith isn't doing much" is generically suspicious, and I wouldn't be at all shocked to see some level of push on me for it (for instance, SAD's earlier push, while obnoxious and at times kinda misreppy, does read like he actually believed it).

Frankly, the lack of said push is a reason that I continue to be concerned that it could just be pie as a wolf, when it's a reasonably easy argument for wolves to jump on. I suppose it's possible that wolves are hoping that she'd just suicide down the road and ware just waiting for that to happen, but I'm not especially convinced of it, and because of that the nature of the current game state just feels weird to me, and honeslty I'm not sure what to make of it.

PS Feel free to keep doubting me I guess, but you'll eventually figure it out (if you're town anyway).

[mhsmith0]

btw I'm going out for a few hours, will be back sometime tonight.

[mhsmith0]

drive a wagon on him if he's scum and give us as much info as possible

don't be vedith

This is both true and generically obvious (whispers: setup spec and explaining how to play to win con is bad and will get you scumread for

reasons

). But given her stated suspicion, town!pie should always be voting and casing and actively pushing for my lynch, as opposed to posturing around the idea of game throwing even harder than vedith did.

I think you should keep your weird bdsm stuff in your pt

I think you should keep your weird bdsm stuff in your pt

^

One of these is likely scum, joking around the situation instead of actually engaging with it. I'd guess jester over Maria fwiw. I'm skeptical they're both scum though.

I also think town!dunn is likely to know better than his push given our history together, especially his accusation expressed in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p8602415 wrt my interaction w Maria, which suggests either the same lack of critical engagement with my posts that he seems to suggest is alignment-indicative towards me, or he's conf!biasing towards the theory he's already made towards me being scum. I lean towards the former but am not sure yet.

Ps I think mds probably believes in her push on me, but again am not fully sold on that yet.

[mhsmith0]

The post I'd made to maria pretty clearly was engaging her on her meta tendencies with our shared game experience as the background, and you either twisted it into a "omg smith is being hypocritical" bit or you simply weren't thinking about what I was saying.

This is especially interesting since I'd discussed this exactly meta tendency in open 658

Oddmusic, Creature, mariaR all town leans

Oddmusic generally looks villagery
Creature basically does literally nothing as scum, see http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
MariaR seems to put actual effort into looking decent when she's scum, while she's kinda lynchbait as town (sample size of 1 each for her but w/e)

I'd have more reads but it's late and I'm tired.

which to me means that if you were truly curious about what I was saying and why I was saying it, you'd either acknowledge that my point was maria-specific (as opposed to the seemingly flagrant hypocrisy you accused me of), or, if you were skeptical of me, I guess you could have pushed me about why I'd question her like that when we had a game together where she hadn't put effort into looking decent, AND she was scum.

Instead you hopped to the "smith being hypocritical" bit, which is a generally easy/lazy attack to make, and suggests that you aren't putting in the effort to actually think through what I'm actually doing.

PS What I'm actually suggesting is that you should probably consider my performance so far this game to be decently within my town range, and then the question would be whether you also think it's decently within my wolf range (and to my knowledge you aren't familiar with how I wolf).

Nevertheless, you state that I'm "not playing the same as you were in that one other game", to which I'd ask you to talk through how exactly you think I'm different, particularly compared to my first week or so in that game, where I also wasn't doing very much.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: mhsmith-pieguyn

mhsmith is thoroughly underwhelming this game

No, Smith, I don't think it's at all bizarre that both of us are pushing you. I really am not seeing the Smith from 658 here, with the wagonomics and the predictions. You were also much less defensive in that game.

Why oh why did you have to roll scum? This game would've been so much easier if you were on our side.

Not yet, check again later lol

[mhsmith0]

stupid reply function randomly reposting earlier quotes

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith is probably town lol, how are people even scum reading this

Talk about why? I feel like the point about my not doing much so far is relatively valid, and while I think most of the rest of the case against me is reachy, that doesn't really make me obv!town or anything.

[mhsmith0]

@HS, @Dunn: you two should talk to each other about me. I'll grab popcorn and watch.

PS My 2710 was about your 2691 (with a bit of your 2709 as well). Really not sure what was unclear about what I'm saying. If you're unclear about it, try stating what you think I'm saying and go from there? "That's not clear" is itself not clear; what do you not understand?

[mhsmith0]

@sad: what makes you think I'm scum w mds?

[mhsmith0]

I mean I don't know about you guys, but if I were scum I would def go for an early distancing on one of my buddies (and put the other somewhere between leaning town-to town?)

But putting an early distancing is super important for scum because if one of them flips, then the other can coast to late game and possibly endgame because of freelo townie-points.

Sure, I guess i can maybe see that at least on a theory basis. Idk if she'd actually be capable of carrying that off effectively as scum, but I don't know why you'd be making a presumption one way or the other there.

[mhsmith0]

^so i guess I don't have an issue w you making that read, even tho it's wrong.

[mhsmith0]

@HS, @Dunn: you two should talk to each other about me. I'll grab popcorn and watch.

I still want this to happen by the way.

[mhsmith0]

Kinda want to see that happen, annoyed HS popped in and just left. Maybe he's back tomorow?

[mhsmith0]

Remember when I said HS could be town?

Yeah uh no.

HS - mhsmith - ???

ahhaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
i am fuckin done
literally what the fuck
what makes me any more likely to do or say that as scum compared to town
literally what the fuck

Scout is pushing me, sees you defending me, and associates your defense with being my partner. It's a pretty natural read in the circumstance, and makes me a bit more comfortable with the idea that he simply is a townie who thinks I'm a wolf.

You also argued that my 2433 was a really good post. You made the point that it didn't make sense for me to do it as a wolf, but since you've seemingly been thinking about my motivations there, what do you think my motivation actually was? Not "well it doesn't make sense as wolf" but what the actual thought process was, and why I made that post in that situation at that time.

Ps I actually really want to see the HS answer here, would appreciate if no one else guesses.

[mhsmith0]

ahhaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
i am fuckin done
literally what the fuck
what makes me any more likely to do or say that as scum compared to town
literally what the fuck

Because your reads are bad in a way that youre probably trying to keep yourbuddies from being lynched

Shadow-maria is a cowbeaten to death already
And yes im aware that arthur does the same, and i disagree with it as much as with you
But otherwise hes okay and youre not

Ps if HS is a wolf, I feel like the shadow-Maria pair is pretty likely spewed town.

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw I think jester is likelier than mds. If it was HS/jester, then MAYBE its pie (which would explain why HS doesn't want me dead) but I'd guess someone pushing me (which would explain the defense as distancing from someone's push on me). Not sure if something like HS/jester/Dunn really works though *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

Scout is pushing me, sees you defending me, and associates your defense with being my partner. It's a pretty natural read in the circumstance, and makes me a bit more comfortable with the idea that he simply is a townie who thinks I'm a wolf.

Coincidentally, I also think he is a townie (?) who thinks you are a wolf

Dunn with the sheeping of his scum read

[mhsmith0]

Rather it IS fake because you just throw out vague things like that but then when I scumread your slot you turn on me pretty hard when you were ignoring me before

Because your reasoning was stupid, and very possibly fake.

[mhsmith0]

I disagree. My reasoning is fine.

Your reasoning was terrible. The idea that my push on Maria was somehow hypocritical with the post I'd made a few minutes before is incredibly lazy, both in terms of what I was actually saying (since, again, the context was in no way hard to understand), and the idea that you think I'd as scum be likely to be flagrantly hypocritical about something just a few minutes after I'd made the post that supposedly makes my Maria question hypocritical. Or maybe you think I'm just ridiculously sloppy as scum?

[mhsmith0]

Your pushing on pie looks fake

Ps I'm null on pie, which ought to be relatively obvious at this point.

[mhsmith0]

Your pushing on pie looks fake

Ps I'm null on pie, which ought to be relatively obvious at this point.

Yea. One of the reasons I started voting you. Then you fake went "it might be pie" but never tried to figure her out

This suggests that there is substantial evidence that I could have used to figure her out. Remind me what such evidence is? Or do you mean I should have been more active in our shared PT?

[mhsmith0]

The idea that my push on Maria was somehow hypocritical with the post I'd made a few minutes before is incredibly lazy

I don't remember ever saying that.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p8602415

The idea that I'd intentionally push Maria essentially for doing what I'd just finished saying that town should do is basically an accusation of hypocrisy. You actually accused me of "setting up" for a push on her from the earlier post, which I guess is actually a different accusation, though also equally dumb, especially given the context of my meta with her and the fact that it was a very clear request for info rather than an attack. It was super reachy on your end.

[mhsmith0]

Alright, I'm down for dunn. [unofficial]

ok,

Accept Dunn.

This should be interesting.

Grand total of 3 minutes to decide.

Actually I kinda want to know from all the ladies who didn't talk about it ITT:

What made you accept your partners, both in terms of who you picked and when (especially those that made a relatively quick choice)?

Why did you drop this?

Because none of the answers given were all that interesting, and it didn't seem like it was going to go anywhere.

[mhsmith0]

Your pushing on pie looks fake

Ps I'm null on pie, which ought to be relatively obvious at this point.

Yea. One of the reasons I started voting you. Then you fake went "it might be pie" but never tried to figure her out

This suggests that there is substantial evidence that I could have used to figure her out. Remind me what such evidence is? Or do you mean I should have been more active in our shared PT?

You're making assumptions about people pushing your slot without considering it's alignment. What if you're town and pie is scum?

Rather it's the opposite; you're slipping and know pie is town and using that knowledge.

I'm evaluating people's pushes on me from the perspective of knowing they're wrong, at least about myself.

Twisting that into the idea that because I'm pushing back on people pushing in me, I'm therefore slipping knowledge that pie is town isn't even reachy so much as nonsensical.

[mhsmith0]

@mhsmith: now that you think im town, lets look back again
What do you think of me questioning the IC?

I think it was stupid. I thought that it was a possibly indicative moment, but am increasingly thinking it was just you doing something dumb, and opposed to you having an actual perspective slip where you were imitating a town process and letting your wires cross by accidentally "scum-hunting" the IC.

[mhsmith0]

No you said that town would be more likely to give up, while scum would fight their lynch

You then said Maria fighting her lynch was unusual

FOR HER. I said it was unusual FOR HER. And rather than use that as a cudgel to bash her with, I asked her to provide evidence as to whether my meta read on her was correct. Congratulations, you have discovered my attempt to sort her. Good work.

[mhsmith0]

It's not reachy

You say I'm scum because I'm pushing you. That implies that you believe pie is town, unless you think I'm bussing pie by pushing you

No, I'm saying I think that your read is me is sufficiently nonsensical that I'm increasingly sketicpial you actually believe it. That you are pushing me is not why I suspect you. That you are pushing me for terrible reasoning is why I suspect you.

And that is independent from whether pie is town or not.

[mhsmith0]

What do you think about people if pie is scum?

I'd be likelier to write you off as derpy town instead of scum that's full of shit, for starters, though a weird bus there on your partners lover probably isn't necessarily outside your range,

I'd probably be a bit more skeptical of kagami given pies TR there, and would also be more inclined to think shadow-Maria had a wolf in it.

Not sure she'd have spewed mds-jester town, but I'd at least consider it more possible theyre v/v.

[mhsmith0]

You keep acting like the only reason I'm pushing you is the Maria thing, when I've layed out other reasoning. That's scummy.

It's basically that and "smith hasn't been doing much". And you were just in a game where the latter was proven well inside my town range. You say my play is different and yet can't seem to actually explain HOW it's different, especially my early play in that game.

[mhsmith0]

though a weird bus there on your partners lover probably isn't necessarily outside your range,

So you'd agree or disagree that "'bus' the town in my buddy's pair" is a thing you'd be capable of considering and potentially doing?

[mhsmith0]

I've explained how it's different multiple times, though?

You were flaking out in that other game

You're not flaking out in this game. You're posting... but doing nothing.

Once I started pushing you, you started posting like a madman as well. Another reason you're scum this game (If I recall, while you posted more you never reached near this level of posting before)

I do find it interesting that you're accusing me of "doing nothing" when that isn't really the case (not doing much likely fair tho). You also seem to be accusing me of being scum for pushing back on my attackers? Especially when the argument against me is bad? That's a pretty weird argument, all the more so because I'm currently NOT making the kind of easy survivalistic push on a different wagon that would actually suggest survivalism (unless you think I'm scum with Maria-shadow?)

If you want to suggest that I'm more engaged with evaluating ghenpushes on me, sure, that's fair, but that's in no way scum-indicative, especially when I'm actually working to try and evaluate the people pushing me for whatever I think they actually believe in the push (ex: I think scout does, I think decent odds mds does, but I think you're very questionable at this stage).

[mhsmith0]

It was also largely the reason I was town-reading Parama but now think Shadow-Parama pair is likely.

loool

of all the shadow pushes yours looks the most fake to me tbh, i actually brought up the possibility of you bussing shadow to HS

This is the sort of thing that begs for fleshing out btw.

[mhsmith0]

Don't think this is going anywhere, I'll wait for some townies to chime in (why are people still talking about shadow)

SAD is a consensus town read and thinks shadow is scum and continues to push there. It's kind of a question that answers itself.

[mhsmith0]

well, mhsmith0 is scum.

hmm, what to do~

How come you aren't evaluating this "push" on you

It's called a PT. Obviously it was fake as fuck, but she claimed it was "for reactions" and then she gave it up when it was going nowhere. Perhaps coincidentally, this happened after I started questioning it (you can see this in post 2707-8), so the incident seems null to me.

[mhsmith0]

Decent odds one of jester/Maria is scum btw.

[mhsmith0]

I've been questioning the people pushing on me.
Also, what am I supposed to ask, "hey Maria, why'd you sheep jesters sketchy reaction post"?

I think you should keep your weird bdsm stuff in your pt

I think you should keep your weird bdsm stuff in your pt

^

[mhsmith0]

Dunn, you literally used *my* reasons for going after Smith, but you still think I'm scum... with... him?

I can't even with people's reads this game.

Like, at this point I'm pretty sure everyone is scum and FakeGod is just trolling me in particular.

^probably a town post. Jester can still be a wolf tho.

[mhsmith0]

well, mhsmith0 is scum.

hmm, what to do~

How come you aren't evaluating this "push" on you

I don't really care about him being paranoid of me; I think objectively I look town but I'm nowhere near my usual self which bleeds town all over the thread.

he's scum because he just feels really defensive and cagey (his posts leading up to my 2700, which that was in response to, being an example of this), and he's asking a lot of questions, but it feels like he's just passively floating along and continuing to comment on whatever is going on at the time, without any real follow-through or legwork that indicates he wants to drive the game.

Pie at least has the potential excuse of not particularly understanding my town meta. You have less of an excuse here, having literally just seen a game from me where I was low activity, not driving the game forward, and was town. You are literally the last person in the game who ought to be suspecting me for this.

[mhsmith0]

Ps evaluating the people pushing on me is a lot less work than actually re-reading. Now pretend that I'm never lazy as town.

[mhsmith0]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=68953
Subbed in for mds late day one. Was basically super lazy until I thought I saw a decent case against trans, and then it was that and pushback against the case against me until my mislynch.

[mhsmith0]

Wouldn't mind lynching jester and having a couple days to read the thread without the volume of shit posts continuing to increase.
VOTE: jester

[mhsmith0]

Yep. If you're town (which I think is reasonably likely) you can also push for a counter-wagon and see which pushes on you look real and which like bullshit.

[mhsmith0]

even the push on Jester.

my intuition is screaming at me that mhsmith knows he is going down and is mirroring my reads (SAD/inspectorscout in particular, which he accepted in our PT with a rather low amount of verification in a much different way to most of the people in this game who I have had to actively convince) in order to generate a bunch of WIFOM for when he flips. I'm aware this is a really shitty reason to scum read someone, but I just don't know if I can shake it.

Don't worry pie, I believe you can shake it

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: shadow-maria
Choo choo

[mhsmith0]

@mhsmith where do you play turbos? another site? marathon games here are closed it seems

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/dat ... e=mhsmith0
Mainly turbos in my data, a few long games (almost all of my long games where I've randed wolf have been on MU, 5 of 7 rands/sub were as wolf. Like the opposite luck I've had on MS where I've been pretty consistently > rand town.

[mhsmith0]

I love the confirm bias you have towards me

^maria reading HS as with btw, since wolves can't be conf!biased

[mhsmith0]

@2766
The motivation read to me as 'Holy fucking shit townies, stop talking about suicide, stop doing suicide, I just wanna win the game retards'. I thought that was implied by the way I wrote my post.

townSmith was getting frustrated that the idea of suiciding was even on the table, so he posted that to set the record straight

.

Close enough. Basically just a reaction to the seeming ongoing derp, and game throwing is something that irritates me when I'm town (I'm mainly amused when this happens as wolf, which means if I'm a wolf then that post wasn't "setting up a push on Maria" [lolol dunn] but instead just a fake reaction... and interestingly "was that real" hasn't really been a point of discussion so far).

[mhsmith0]

though I do have to ask this. HS, why do you not seem to be interested in consolidating votes?

S_S/Maria aren't living to endgame, no matter what happens, but there's no reason they absolutely need to be lynched right at this second and fuck everything else. what issue do you take with lynching two other pairs who aren't going to make it to endgame first (ignore the fact you're reading my pair as town)?

^if there's a wolf in shadow/Maria, we should probably be wagoning pie next.

[mhsmith0]

there are legit a few people on this site who I can sense just by looking at their posts, but none of them are in this game. tis a pity

p-edit: if me/mhsmith is the pair who dies overnight, I probably will jump off a cliff.

^
Pie thinks I'm scum, doesn't want wolves to potentially bail her out if she's wrong

(I read that as a "I don't want this to happen" as opposed to a "lol that's totally impossible" sort of thing)

[mhsmith0]

Just saying we only have 2 mislynches left.

And? Other than "here's a factual statement about the game" what are you trying to get at w this?

[mhsmith0]

Umm Smith I read it exactly as "no way this is happening in our universe".

Such a weird way of phrasing it if so. Like I'd have said "I will literally never stop laughing" or the like in that spot instead of the jumping off a cliff bit.

[mhsmith0]

And? Other than "here's a factual statement about the game" what are you trying to get at w this?

Yes, that if you're planning a 3-fold series of lynches and none of the first two yield scum, something needs to ping you.

And? That's still generically obvious, all the more so since my slot is one of the three being considered, and you think I'm a wolf. So fypov, things are seemingly ok right?

Umm Smith I read it exactly as "no way this is happening in our universe".

Such a weird way of phrasing it if so. Like I'd have said "I will literally never stop laughing" or the like in that spot instead of the jumping off a cliff bit.

Not really? It's sort of a bet, like "I swear I will eat my shoe if this happens". Not sure where you're going with that anyway. It's like, such a superficial thing to latch onto that I'm tempted to post Mr Fantastic again. You're not getting any town credit by FOSing your lover now, just so we're on the same page.

What makes you think I'm looking for town credit by fosing pie, other than that you already suspect me? Also, thoughts on the "if shadow/Maria has a wolf, pie should probably be next" bit? Do you think I'm running a "shadow/Maria will flip town and then clear pie (even tho few suspect her)" sort of scam?

[mhsmith0]

mds/jester needs to die tomorrow hory shet this is horrible

Bad or wolfy? I'm not especislly getting "mds doesn't believe the things she's saying" pings here (jester can still be wolf tho), do you think she's faking it?

[mhsmith0]

@mhsmith:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking you were gunning for. Town credit for FOSing pie, then "pie is town" after Maria/Shadow flip town.

Not impressed that you transferred to that wagon either. Did Jester suddenly stop looking that lynchable, or just not scumvenient enough to lynch us *now*?

Given that I'm the consensus suspect in my pairing, the idea of extra clearing pie is pretty low value to wolf!me, since what would actually would matter is whether I could clear myself.

Other than "it seems villagery to suspect your partner", what actually makes you think I'm looking for town credit by suspecting her?

Wrt your wagon, jester hasn't been doing anything at all to appear less lynchable, so pretty clearly that's not the issue. Do you think the case as presented against shadow/Maria (mainly shadow) is bunk?

Like, seriously, everyone who thinks either Jester or I are scum should vote us now. Preferably with a short summary of their FOS/reasoning/etc. Then it's intermission time and you'll have plenty of opportunity to re-evaluate your reads.

Why? There are three wolves, what in partuclar is the rush to specifically evaluate your slot?