Micro 662: ArcAngel's Twin Trap Mafia (Ended)

[Vedith]

The difference is that I'm not acting scummy. You people are.

Cautious opportunism = another scummy action.

MA/Milkshake. Game solved. Moar votes please.

Daaaamn! You're good!

[MisaTange]

@Pine: I mean.

You can easily interpret 60 as, assuming a Pine/SA scumteam "Oh, I see what they're doing, lemme actually verbalize what they're doing to disguise themselves as a means to scumhunt." A lot of your things are only discussing theory (25, 30 and 77) to make your iso seem bigger and contributing when you're not actually.

[Vedith]

Nah I don't think that Pine is that kind of player.
Doesn't make him town but I don't think 60 is buddy tactics.

[Vedith]

Who else is scum or scummy for you?

[MisaTange]

Fair enough.

SA still. I still feel strongly about 53 as a way of fabricating reasons.

[Vedith]

Did anyone read that?
I did read 54 though.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Kop, gut is triggered by something and it's not hard to find what when you look for it. I did it with my misa read. And again you've failed to even try to guess at one scum, even when prompted. You feel, to me, like scum who is trying to appear involved yet isn't invested and who is trying not to step on toes and make enemies. You seem like your goal is to be careful not to be lynched rather than to find scum. That's a scum mindset.

Unvote, Vote Kop

I understand the need to re-read, but I'll be surprised if Kop gives us any sort of natural scum read.

[MisaTange]

Ugh, I was waiting for that, lol.

While it is a touch odd that Kop does not have any scumreads/scumleans, does he really have to explain his reads?

Especially

on page five i.e. that is considered to be early day one, on users that had less than eight posts at the time?!

[Sleepless Assassin]

I asked him to explain so I could see a real thought process that doesn't look like a random list of names. It didn't need to be anything significant. Just something to back it and show that when he said he had gut reads, he actually had those reads. Yes, he said "tone", but I wanted something along the lines of "see this post? It kind of feels this way". Anyone can list a few names, call them gut reads, and call it a day. But explaining why you feel that way helps everyoneelse determine whether the reads are genuine or fabricated.

Anyway, that's not even why I'm scumreading him. His play is too careful. He jumped at the chance to call a few people town, but hasn't even implied that anyone could be scum. He seems afraid to get his hands dirty. Like his entire purpose is to not get lynched. I don't see anything to suggest that he's even trying to find scum. I get that it's early, but look at the posts he has made. It's theory talk, responsive posts rather than proactive, and a few gut town reads than he can't even explain.

[milkshake]

I'm going to say my point more passionately this time. Then maybe I'll let it rest. Or maybe not!

Most of the "scum hunting" going on in this thread is based on this idea: scum look at their role PM, have some sort of deep emotional shift, and can never again play the game correctly, instead making posts with all sorts of strange emotional motivations deeply affected by their desire to "fit in" and "look town."

This is a silly idea! Ignoring what is in your role PM and posting your true thoughts anyway is not hard at all! Under the one scenario when there is a possibility of your scum partner getting lynched, THEN you have to go through contortions, because you are the only one with motivation not to vote him. Town players have no information about him, and are as happy to participate as anyone else. Of course, if town players frequently refuse to participate based on "reads," then scum can just say they have a "read," and we have lost any hope of

true

scum hunting.

For my part, at this day 1 juncture, I'm willing to participate in any bandwagon that gains steam. And all town players should be. If they aren't, we reach stagnation, which has sort of already happened, and as demonstrated in the previous paragraph we lose the most reliable source of information. Only when someone is near being lynched will we be able to make any sort of legitimate inferences about alignment.

[Pine]

I'm going to say my point more passionately this time. Then maybe I'll let it rest. Or maybe not!

Most of the "scum hunting" going on in this thread is based on this idea: scum look at their role PM, have some sort of deep emotional shift, and can never again play the game correctly, instead making posts with all sorts of strange emotional motivations deeply affected by their desire to "fit in" and "look town."

This is a silly idea! Ignoring what is in your role PM and posting your true thoughts anyway is not hard at all! Under the one scenario when there is a possibility of your scum partner getting lynched, THEN you have to go through contortions, because you are the only one with motivation not to vote him. Town players have no information about him, and are as happy to participate as anyone else. Of course, if town players frequently refuse to participate based on "reads," then scum can just say they have a "read," and we have lost any hope of

true

scum hunting.

For my part, at this day 1 juncture, I'm willing to participate in any bandwagon that gains steam. And all town players should be. If they aren't, we reach stagnation, which has sort of already happened, and as demonstrated in the previous paragraph we lose the most reliable source of information. Only when someone is near being lynched will we be able to make any sort of legitimate inferences about alignment.

[milkshake]

Yup. So anyway I don't think Kop is necessarily scum. But I'd be happy to policy lynch him if he continues to refuse to vote.

Right now the player with the most votes is Sleepless Assassin with three, and the second is me with two. So, everyone should vote Sleepless Assassin. Or me if Sleepless Assassin is your scum buddy. (That last part being partially facetious... partially!)

[Spade_Ace]

This is a silly idea! Ignoring what is in your role PM and posting your true thoughts anyway is not hard at all! Under the one scenario when there is a possibility of your scum partner getting lynched, THEN you have to go through contortions, because you are the only one with motivation not to vote him. Town players have no information about him, and are as happy to participate as anyone else. Of course, if town players frequently refuse to participate based on "reads," then scum can just say they have a "read," and we have lost any hope of

true

scum hunting.

@milkshake your basic premise is that on day 1 without any flips it is easy for mafia to blend in as a townie and also that game changing activity happens only when someone is at the risk of getting lynched. Therefore it is best to create a situation where a random person is at the risk of getting lynched.

I feel you are assuming multiple things.

1. That all players are experienced in the role of a scum and know how to ignore their PM designation. Isn't it possible there are players who could scumslip under the pressure of quality questioning?

2.You are assuming the partner goes through contortions on voting or not. If the players are as exp as you claim to be, then they won't think twice in bussing their partner. In fact their primary motivation would be to provide as many facts that could support the lynch.

3. "Town players are happy to participate". Why should they be happy to participate when there is a possibility of a townie being lynched. If you take a townie to L-1 and he/she claims a PR role, won't mafia just kill that player at night? Again am not suggesting 'Not lynch', as you previously assumed. But it is better to take a person om whom we have genuine reads to L-1.

4. Also discussions that happen on day1 always supports day2 proceedings.

5. Something else that I realised. In this format, the person with the highest vote gets lynched, whether or not they are hammered. Suppose a person is at L-2. The mafia just needs to be quiet and wait for the deadline. So it's imp that we apply pressure on players who appear to be lurking.

[Vedith]

Yup. So anyway I don't think Kop is necessarily scum. But I'd be happy to policy lynch him if he continues to refuse to vote.

Kop is actually a pro town player.
He's never being policy lynched.
You don't think he's scum but want him lynched. If you wasn't scum and PL was a thing you wold be dead.

[milkshake]

I feel you are assuming multiple things.

1. That all players are experienced in the role of a scum and know how to ignore their PM designation. Isn't it possible there are players who could scumslip under the pressure of quality questioning?

2.You are assuming the partner goes through contortions on voting or not. If the players are as exp as you claim to be, then they won't think twice in bussing their partner. In fact their primary motivation would be to provide as many facts that could support the lynch.

3. "Town players are happy to participate". Why should they be happy to participate when there is a possibility of a townie being lynched. If you take a townie to L-1 and he/she claims a PR role, won't mafia just kill that player at night? Again am not suggesting 'Not lynch', as you previously assumed. But it is better to take a person om whom we have genuine reads to L-1.

4. Also discussions that happen on day1 always supports day2 proceedings.

5. Something else that I realised. In this format, the person with the highest vote gets lynched, whether or not they are hammered. Suppose a person is at L-2. The mafia just needs to be quiet and wait for the deadline. So it's imp that we apply pressure on players who appear to be lurking.

Thank you for these points! Let me offer my comments.

1. It's true that I'm assuming all players have a basic level of ability. However, try as I might I can't think of an instance where a player could really scumslip. In real life, maybe yes, but this is a forum and you can take as much time as you like to compose a post. I can't think of a situation in which a player would submit something that reveals they are scum solely because someone was prodding them.

2. This is correct and it points to the two strategies scum can use when there is a wagon on their partner: 1) don't participate, offer some excuse, and hope nobody clues in to what's going on; 2) participate and increase the chance that their partner gets lynched. 2) is what you suggest, and it does prevent 1) from happening, BUT it has its own drawback. Their partner is more likely to be lynched, which if it happens is a huge blow to scum's winning chances.

3. There is a very big possibility of a townie being lynched on day 1, and there is nothing the town can do about that except no lynch! Same goes for risking wagons on PRs. There is nothing that can be done about that (except no lynch, for which I believe a completely reasonable argument could be made.)

4. Agreed that discussions on day 1 might be useful on day 2 IF those discussions include votes, especially votes with real possibilities of becoming lynches. Discussions with no votes I believe have limited usefulness.

5. No comment, I totally agree!

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm with Spade on this one, but I think everyone knew that already.

[Pine]

Moar milkshake votes

[MisaTange]

I'm with Spade on this one, but I think everyone knew that already.

^^^^ (the first part, not the second part)

At least I understand milkshake's thought process; they lost me midway in this conversation

[Arnold Schwarzenegger]

Vedith can you solve this game for me. I'm tired.

Who's scum?

[Vedith]

Milkshake and space

[Pine]

(He meant to say milkshake and Misa)

[Vedith]

Misa isn't scum.

[Pine]

One of SA and Misa is, and I think it's Misa. Setup is open, so you're not Masons.

[Kop]

Vote misa

Throwing shade and then playing the "caught for the wrong reason" game.

>throwing shade
>admitted inthread that I reworded the post weirdly, allowing for misunderstandings which can happen. in a text-based game
>uh

Admitting things doesn't make them town.

But does it make them scum?

It doesn't, but I've played a lot of mafia and her posts are giving me a lot of gut scum vibes.

Let me try to verbalize it.

Interesting exchange

This is a very empty post, but implies suspicion on at least one, if not both, players. Yet the attack is soft enough that it's easy to either back off or choose a side later. This can mean either "both players are scummy", "one of these players is scummy", or "this may be nothing, but I'm watching it". It's just too easy to decide later what you meant and go with the flow or go with what will seem less scummy. A town player is more likely to...commit may be the wrong word, but at least tell us what they are thinking at that moment. For example, why is it interesting? What does it mean that it's interesting? I get that it's early and people will say this is RVS and doesn't mean anything, but misa saw enough to point it out, so I'd like to know why.

I'm actually reminded of the strategy that scum sometimes use where they vote their scumpartner as a means of distancing

Now we get the "why" and it wouldn't be so scummy on it's own, as wrong as it may be. There were no signs of distancing and it's way too early to expect much, if any, distancing anyway. But the real question is whether misa believes there was distancing, and again, the "why" factor is missing. We don't see why misa sees distancing rather than typical early game banter or even genuine suspicion. There's no effort to determine what is going on. Just more weak implied suspicion for no apparent reason.

I mean.It may mean something but it may mean not; I recognize that LUV's/mine's vote can equally be, uhh, that.

And now that she's been called out, she starts to back off, like I mentioned above. She's now in the mindset of defending herself and forgets all about her attack, if it even was one. A town player would probably still wonder if there is something there as far as the players she thought were distancing where instead of suddenly dropping it when it looks bad on her.

okay thenit's a small, slightly unreliable scumtellthis scumtell kind of depends on yours/tb's flip and the reason why i'm not pursuing it any further (hence my RvS vote) is that i dont like scumhunting before flips, on page frickin one

Then there's the excuse that it was rvs. No. You had a game related reason for making the vote. It may have been weak, but it wasn't rvs. But she chooses to discredit herself completely rather than describe more about what she saw that may have come from scum.

I  just realized people from here scumread uncertainty

whelp

First of all, no, it's not the uncertainty. It's the lack of anything backing suspicion that makes it feel more like an attempt to make people seem scummy than genuine suspicion. Second of all, this shows that defensive mentality again. It's "how do I seem to everyone else?", not "who is scum?".

Also notice, that misa's posts have been entirely defensive since she was questioned about her distancing comment. Not one post after that is scumhunting. It's just her trying to explain herself, which yes I understand she needs to do, but it's not a substitute for scumhunting at the same time

I see some of these points, and do agree to an extent. However the only thing I disagree with, is the fact that it's RVS, not all of what you said, I don't think they would make it that boldly obvious that is what is really going on in page one straight away. I expect distancing in the game, but I don't think doing it during RVS with it all being random to be taken seriously.

However I wouldn't rule it completely out that you may have a point about it all.

I just understand my own feelings that during RVS nothing can be substantially be taken seriously, and that's why I feel trying to force distance is something scum wouldn't do during this stage.

Arnold mentioned Pine's comment that the exchange between MisaTange and Sleepless Assassin was "not town vs. town." I might as well note that I also didn't like Pine's comment. But I don't have any solid reads at this point.

I think the best stance at this point in the game is pro-lynching-anyone. The numbers back this up too. I think this strategy will serve the town well:

1. Bring someone to L-1
2. Listen to what they have to say
3. Someone hammers or someone doesn't. If the latter, repeat these steps.

I can see the good in this idea, but I also see the bad. I'd change around the words in point number one to bringing the highest scum read to L-1 not just someone. Bringing someone brings point number 2 to role claiming in aid to survive, and having roleclaims out just because you wanted someone at L-1 to hear what they had to say, is really not a good idea. But I do see the good side because it shows players mentalities and gets them talking when votes are on them.

Pine, I think I almost have successfully communicated my analysis to you. Just one detail is missing, and you have basically provided it yourself in your post. You said that when scum is the driving force for a wagon, it isn't random. This is correct, and this is why the town needs a random source for the wagon. It is also why I chose the Sleepless Assassin wagon which MisaTange started. It was the only wagon to have accumulated more than one vote at the time (it still is), and it was started for a sufficiently random reason.

I can see what you are saying, and I do agree with it. But wouldn't scum not try to drive wagons, but rather join them to push them?

[Kop]

It's Day 1. Why are we even talking about teams and partners. We should be lynching the person most likely to be scum and figuring out the rest later.

Even putting that aside though...

Teams are pretty hard to figure out when we have people who haven't made a meaningful contribution yet.

I agree with this.

Even if everyone had contributed, talking about teams on day one without flip shouldn't really be thrown around. Get a flip and if the person flips scum, then you can talk about possible teams.