Mini #534 - Vegetable Mafia (Game Over!)

[Northjayhawk]

random.org 1d11 = 5

vote:crub

That sounds like an evil name anyway!

[Northjayhawk]

Sure, why not.

Here's my lame page-1 justification. Someone who is trying to be silly, voting for self, encouraging others to vote for him, might be trying hard to look innocent.

unvote
vote: Oman

[Northjayhawk]

Someone who is trying to be silly, voting for self, encouraging others to vote for him, might be trying hard to look innocent.

Yeahm cause all of those are clear signs of innocence

Well yeah. "Oman's actions are so crazy, he couldnt possibly be scum. Scum wouldnt be this goofy", seems to the image your going for.

[Northjayhawk]

I said crazy, not scummy. Maybe your view of things is different, but I wouldnt think scum would act so wacky, so it looks like it could be a good cover to me.

That, or just bored page-1 playfulness while waiting for people to check in. I never said it was a particularly good justification, but I've got nothing else.

[Northjayhawk]

, but I wouldnt think scum would act so wacky

And you're voting me.

Well, didnt you ask for it? I dont like to random-vote after the first one, and its all I can think of. Anyway, its only until someone else comes along for whom a non-lame arguement can be made.

My main point I'm trying to make is that what your doing is not (to me) normal townie behavior at all. No one expects a townie to vote for themself and ask others to form a bandwagon against them, thats just really weird. So, I have to ask myself, why would someone do that. All I can come up with is 1) bored page-1 antics killing time until everyone checks in = extremely likely or 2) a scum trying to do something so silly and abnormal that everyone will just write them off as a nut and look elsewhere = extremely unlikely, but > 0%

[Northjayhawk]

Ahh, there you are. I'll return to my original random vote.

unvote
vote: crub

Aside from that, cows are hateful creatures that can never be trusted under any circumstances. The only thing they are ever good for is eating.

[Northjayhawk]

Vote: Northjayhawk

Not really random. I don't like the way he made a semi-serious vote,

called it a playful random vote

and now he's unvoted it and gone back to Crub. Why?

I bolded the area that is false. It is kind of interesting that you either misunderstood or chose to misinterpret what I did as a playful vote on Oman.

My vote was not completely random, but only barely. If everyone else has an x% random chance of being scum, I'd say Oman is maybe (x+0.1)%. I was convinced by others who followed up that a lame bandwagon this early before people finish checking in is counterproductive, so I returned to my first vote.

[Northjayhawk]

*shrug* That makes two of us. Your first 3 posts were completely weird and unhelpful. At least with random-voting you might possibly, maybe find someone who gets a little too excited about having a random vote placed on them and everyone can start asking them questions about that, maybe someone over-reacts and becomes suspicious themselves, and we proceed from there to figure out what everyone is thinking.

What is the town ever going to gain from someone volunteering to start the bandwagon on themself, in what way does that help anyone at all? (I believe its useless anyway, perhaps someone else can clue me in if its not)

OK, so perhaps you are just being playful, with maybe a very small chance of intentionally being weird for other reasons, usually I would keep that thought to myself, but since you are asking for votes, then what the heck. It probably wouldnt be hard to figure out your motives, so I toss a vote to see what happens.

Your reaction to my vote is more serious and interesting to me than your initial silliness, that page-1 stuff has become less relevant to me at this point.

To recap: first you open with

I'm in!
Self vote!
No, Dice Roll!
No, DICE SELF VOTE!

Original Roll String: 1d1 (STATIC)

1 1-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

and a self-vote.

destructor hops on board which makes you happy, asking for more.

BANDWAGON TO VICTORY!

I make my vote, noting that you are acting really bizarre, but your reaction to that has been anything BUT playful and bored. I'm not particularly concerned at all about votes placed on me at this point because it is too early to matter, but suddenly this all seems very serious to you, and you begin to become defensive.

I'm curious about that. Why did you start with a self-bandwagon that (I believe) would be mostly useless to the town, and why do you feel the need to be defensive now?

[Northjayhawk]

Umm, how is a self bandwagon any less good than one the vote-ee is not on?

When you vote for yourself and ask others to vote for you, we learn very little about you or the people voting for you, other than you are a strange goofball. Maybe we might learn about people voting for you if they go nuts and quickly put you at L-2 or something, but compared to simple random-voting to test other people's reactions, a self-bandwagon is completely useless and probably counterproductive for the town.

[Northjayhawk]

With that, I'll probably be away at least a day or maybe two for some stupid christmas preparation obligations, will check back in later this week.

[Northjayhawk]

I'm back, anyone miss me? Well, just barely back anyway, driving at a 15mph bumper to bumper crawl in traffic during a blizzard is no fun, but thankfully I was able to somehow avoid all the idiots on the road.

Ryan...can you post your role pm?

I just dont know what to make of this. You've got to be joking, right?

soupfly also explained the point I was trying to make a bit better than I did, someone else will potentially feel more pressure from your bandwagon, but a bandwagon on yourself is useless because you know you wont pull the trigger. All you have to do is make sure you defuse the situation before too many others unholster their guns.

Anyway, I've been exclusively on Oman for a little too long, time to examine some other people.

[Northjayhawk]

Veggietastic Vote Count!

ryan -- 5 (thinktank, kravhen, Oman, Crub, destructor)
Crub -- 2 (Northjayhawk, Y)
Y -- 1 (Phate)
Korran -- 1 (WhoMe?)
destructor -- 1 (soupfly)

Not Voting -- Korran, ryan

Now searching for a replacement for Korran.

holy hell, how did that happen?

*insert amazed reaction and suspicions at an early L-2 here, followed by backspacing it all out after realising this vote count is all screwed up*

I believe kravhen's on soupfly, and destructor's vote didnt count (rule #4), he's still on me. So, this isnt as interesting as it looks, except maybe we get to see reactions from people who initially believed the L-2 without checking first.

The only other thing I can think about is destructor intentionally casting a vote that didnt count to get people to think ryan had more votes than he actually did. That actually might be a clever strategy if you dont bring the wrath of the mod, but more likely just a simple mistake and he meant to cast his L-3 vote, then held off correcting the error after people freaked at the updated totals.

[Northjayhawk]

I count 5 on destructor. I am not yet comfortable with seeing this get pushed to the brink without giving it another chance to see an actual response to Phate's question.

FoS: destructor

113 seemed clear enough to me: regardless of the mod error, did you intend to vote, or did you intend to set some kind of trap by casting a vote that wouldnt count.

Misunderstanding once might be fine, but in 116, its reading like your dancing around the question and reading something into it that was obviously not intended.

[Northjayhawk]

destructor does look scummy to me, and if we had a looming deadline or if he had no pressure I'd put my vote that way. By my count, he's at L-3 now and I think there are still interesting statements from other people to look at before we act.

After carefully reading destructor's last few posts I believe destructor did not technically lie and he apparently (to me) did know his vote was illegal and shouldnt count. (he did run a pretty decent risk of causing a mod-error.)

When he was called out on his vote he had plenty of chances to explain himself, but rather than give a simple explanation (intentional illegal vote to see how people react), so we could evaluate and move on, he decided to get a little cute with answering us. Wasting our time by grudgingly releasing tidbits of explanation a little at a time until we could piece together what his answer was, rather than just spell it out in plain english in his first response.

If he had been caught on a lie, I wouldnt hesitate with a vote, but as it is I'd rather give it time for now to look at others and just call it scummy.

[Northjayhawk]

I'll let others continue to probe ryan's intentions. Meanwhile, I thought also thought this was interesting:

destructor is onto something
soupfly is clearly scum

unvote, vote: soupfly

(I'm assuming that was a joke, still very early) Anyway, that was Kravhen's vote on 42, followed by:

holy shit too many people on ryan for it to be legit

Unvote

ryan, out of the people that stacked on you, who appears most scummy to you and why?

on 94. Nice to see Kravhen stepping in to narrowly avoid a quicklynch on ryan by unvoting... soupfly?

To be fair though, aimee did mess up the count, so he could have just taken her word for it, but I would have probably protested the false count like destructor did and tell the mod that I voted someone else. Then we've got:

Woah woah woah, let him explain himself people.
People are going crazy with the votes now. Short day 1 is BAD FOR TOWN.

Unvote

in case i somehow got a vote on him, i lose track. Anyway, I just want him to explain, I don't find it scummy to anticipate the mod to not count a vote because of bad synthax, therefore putting down a "ghost vote" to try to lure a hammer or analyse reactions while keeping the votee NOT actually at L-1 or something. Something like that can even seem clever and useful to some extent, perhaps. Clever use of modding rules. Anyway. Explanation first, lynching later.

on 122. Unless I missed something, he had no vote on anyone at all.

How in the world do you forget who your vote is on? I understand that it can be confusing to know what the votecount is up to or who everyone else is voting for without regular updates, but I almost never forget who I'm voting for. Even if I was unsure, its easy enough to check quickly back to my last vote, this isnt some kind of online twitch-chat game where every second could count.

There's a couple things I dont like. First, this manufactured sense of haste, where you try to give the impression that you have no time to check who your own vote is on, you must unvote right-this-second to prevent disaster. That might just be chalked up to unique posting/playing styles, but second how do you forget who you are voting on not just once, but TWICE? It's almost like who your vote is currently on isnt terribly important to you like it would be for a townie.

unvote, vote: Kravhen

[Northjayhawk]

I could be interested in a NorthJayHawk wagon. Could you answer me this question, why would you return to a random vote? You had made a serious vote, so why go back to random?

That is a fair question. My vote on Oman was only barely non-random with not a lot of solid reasoning behind it at that time, but I thought his bizarre early behavior merited some pressure. I then got some feedback that a real bandwagon before everyone even checked in would be bad. That made sense to me since you basically would let the late people off the hook from possibly making a very suspicious first couple posts and just fly under the radar.

I usually would have just unvoted, but when I saw crub check in with his silly cow, I couldnt resist returning to the random vote and making a remark about his evil avatar. By the time everyone had pretty much checked in, there were more interesting things to talk about.

[Northjayhawk]

@ Northjayhawk - In Post 48 you flesh out, in some detail, your issues with Oman. You say that you had a 'barely-random' vote on him, which doesn't ring true in light of this post. This becomes stranger when you take into account the fact that you returned a random vote to Crub. How random

was

your vote on Oman, really?

I believe I've explained this a few times already. (Aside from you typing "barely random" which doesnt make sense, it was "barely non-random")

I was convinced from popular demand that trying to start a serious bandwagon before everyone even has a chance to check in is detrimental. By the time everyone did check in, we had more serious issues to talk about than Oman's antics. As for Oman now, the issues I had early remain but they are very minor compared to kravhen's eagerness to look innocent and forgetting his votes, and even that isnt much at this point.

[Northjayhawk]

unvote: destructor --> not saying he's not scum but the original vote was pressure more than suspicion. may decide to revote him but only when i have some firm reasons because we're way past the random stage.

so far nobody has really jumped out at me. i understand why oman, ryan and destructor are drawing heat but i can't say there's anything obvious at the moment.

i'm going to do a reread when i get a chance and hopefully i'll see something that i've missed so far.

@ soupfly - Are you telling us that your 'original' vote, back in Post 41 was a pressure vote? Why pressure

me

then?

the initial vote and this were not based on anything thing i'd seen in your play:

In any case I still think destructor is scum...anybody else see it too?

confirm vote: destructor

i wanted to give the impression that there was some substance to my vote when in fact there wasn't. was curious to see how others react. curious to see how you would react.

honestly i haven't read the thread closely enough to really form any firm suspicions, but i will. once i get into the flow of the game i will be quite active but for now i need to find the time to do a proper read through.

as far as why you? i'd answer that with the question "why not you"?

sorry for my being not so active but i will make it up.

Got an update? I dont remember seeing an original arguement for why <insert name here> is scum yet. At 8-9 pages there should hopefully be something suspicious that no one else has noticed or brought up yet.

[Northjayhawk]

Sorry everyone, but after a very nasty uproar on another game, I've found that I do not care for the flavor of mafia games played on this board. You guys have been mostly fine so far, but the stupid rudeness I've had to put up with in another game has taken the fun out of it.

I resign.

Mod, replace me.