Mini 532: Yaw's Split Open Mafia: (Game over)

[Korlash]

... No... i already said why it would be beneficial to town...

[Thanatos]

Can you point me to that? I must've missed it.

[Korlash]

No. I agree the RB hurts us too much. That would be a role I would rather be assigned to a dead player. If the mafia has it we can kill them, but if a town has it we might as well switch and save the town. or that is the scenario in my head. Then it also boils down to endgame play. When we have ll the pro-town roles we want and we are simply siphoning off the mafia's powers.

See if the mod says a re-opened vanilla is turned into a "Power vessel" we, as town, can throw powers we do not want into the dead player, so the mafia do not get them. Also, if in the endgame we have 3 townies, one Doc, one Cop, and one switcher. And the mafia have lets say... RB or example, there is no town we want to switch with the RB. And so, to keep the mafia from having it, we switch it to the dead player.

Do you follow me? i admit I am bad at explaining things...

[bird1111]

Vote Count:
Drunken Piper (1): Thanatos
Thantos (1): Phate
SensFan (1): Zhao
kabenon007 (1): Off the Mark
Off the Mark (1): Panzerjager
Zhao (1): SensFan

Not Voting (6): Holy, Korlash, kabenon007, QuickBen, Jex, DrunkenPiper

With 12 alive it is 7 to lynch.

[QuickBen]

I guess I'm confused about why you'd feel the RB was a danger to the town if it was on a townie.

Also,

FOS Korlash

for giving the scum an idea they may not have thought of should they happen to have the reopener or the switcher.

[SensFan]

I guess I'm confused about why you'd feel the RB was a danger to the town if it was on a townie.

Also,

FOS Korlash

for giving the scum an idea they may not have thought of should they happen to have the reopener or the switcher.

Alright, a few issues with the FoS.

If Korlash was scum, he would have waited until night to tell his scumbuddy about opening vanillas, or switching away good powers. He would not have had to say it in-thread.

Therefore, we are to assume that he is not scum, but instead made a play mistake. You are FoSing someone on the grounds that they are town that goofed.

[Thanatos]

hmm...yeah, that's true. He could have just PMed the mod, without rasing suspicions..

[kabenon007]

Yeah, but that can dip into WIFOM for the record... but I agree that Korlash is seeming mostly townie to me.

[bird1111]

Prodded Drunken Piper.

[SensFan]

Yeah, but that can dip into WIFOM for the record... but I agree that Korlash is seeming mostly townie to me.

That is not WIFOM in the slightest. WIFOM would be if he bussed a buddy, with the hopes of looking Town later on. What he did is STRICTLY WORSE than his other options as scum: he would alert the town of his theory, and it has ZERO chance of getting others to look favorably upon him.

[kabenon007]

Read what WIFOM is... He could be like, well, a townie wouldn't be able to talk to scum partners at night, so I can look town by posing my question in thread instead of waiting for the night. That IS WIFOM.

[Holy]

Hey Sensfan, your buddy Phate is taking alot of flak for this plan, aren't you going to speak up? As the original proponent of it, I would have expect more discussion from you. You've haven't mentioned anything about it for 3 pages now.

I'm also suspicious of OTM, he seems to be flipping.

This is the 2nd time he fails.

Vote: Zhao

.
To me, he seems trying to gradually raising/widening his chance to vote players he mentioned with vague reasons. Scummy indeed...

[Holy]

The role re-opener has the ability to open the Role of a dead player. This would allow the role switcher to switch a player into the empty Role. Think of it as a funky sort of resurrection.

Hey Mod: Another question for you. If say, the reopener targets an alive player to "re-open" at night, and that player dies during the night, will the reopener successfully reopen the power? (IF said player had one that is)

No.

Secondly: If the reopener targets a vanilla, does it open the "Vanilla" role thus allowing the switcher to switch a role onto the dead player? Interesting Idea, I would just like to know for future strategies, games, ideas, etc...

Yes.

Now I'm confused because of you Korlash...

Mod:

Based from Korlash's first question, is this means that the reopener definitely can not open the role of an alive player (can only open a dead player role), true?

Yes.

@ Korlash:
From your second question, actually what did you mean?
The possible case (from your 2nd question) for me is that when we have a dead player and then the reopener targets the dead and the dead showed up as vanilla/unpowered and thus vanilla switched by the switcher to another dead player??? Errr, I'm lost...

No. I agree the RB hurts us too much. That would be a role I would rather be assigned to a dead player. If the mafia has it we can kill them, but if a town has it we might as well switch and save the town. or that is the scenario in my head. Then it also boils down to endgame play. When we have ll the pro-town roles we want and we are simply siphoning off the mafia's powers.

No, I mean opening up the vanilla role. Wouldn't a scum want to do that, to take away power roles?

@ Korlash: You said that the RB hurts town and would be good if that role assigned to a dead player. The point is, how would we know who the player that have the RB role? This is such a speculative theory. Ok, lets back to scum hunting...

@ Thanatos: I guess... when a reopener open a role from the dead, the reopener will know that 'vanilla role' after the act, and if the reopener is scum, before the 'open role act' he is also clueless about the vanilla-ness. Hmmm, tell me if I'm wrong >.>

I guess I'm confused about why you'd feel the RB was a danger to the town if it was on a townie.

Also,

FOS Korlash

for giving the scum an idea they may not have thought of should they happen to have the reopener or the switcher.

Alright, a few issues with the FoS.

If Korlash was scum, he would have waited until night to tell his scumbuddy about opening vanillas, or switching away good powers. He would not have had to say it in-thread.

Therefore, we are to assume that he is not scum, but instead made a play mistake. You are FoSing someone on the grounds that they are town that goofed.

Don't be fooled ;.; he is that kind of scum...
Throwing thoughtless theory just like that...

[Holy]

@ Korlash:
From your second question, actually what did you mean?
The possible case (from your 2nd question) for me is that when we have a dead player and then the reopener targets the dead and the dead showed up as vanilla/unpowered and thus vanilla switched by the switcher to another dead player??? Errr, I'm lost...

If Korlash was scum, he would have waited until night to tell his scumbuddy about opening vanillas, or switching away good powers. He would not have had to say it in-thread.

O yeah right, sorry. So from Korlash's theory, thus dead vanilla switched 'blindly' to another alive player. Well, this could hurt town if the switcher accidentally target an innocents cop, doc, etc with the dead vanilla.

[Korlash]

... Are you serious? you guys just attacked me for asking the mod a question? =|

*sighs*

To not answer anyone in general... But:

RB: Already been said. With all the powers in the game, the RB hurts us. Be it on a town or scum, the possibility of it blocking a useful role (Opener,cop,doc, switcher) that is on a town is very likely. So while people have thrown the idea out that once dead, we should leave the dead RB's power alone, I merely said we should simply try to save the townie (Provided it is on a towny) Not a big difference. So FoS: Whoever fosed me for such a stupid reason. Get a life...

Now to Holy! yay! A player I can have a meaningful conversation with!

@ Korlash: You said that the RB hurts town and would be good if that role assigned to a dead player. The point is, how would we know who the player that have the RB role? This is such a speculative theory. Ok, lets back to scum hunting...

We don't. I just wanted to know if it was possible to open a dead unpowered as a vessel. I used the RB just as an example of why it MAY be needed/useful. I only want the town to know exactly what limits are on their powers so theories/plans can be brought to lite later. Now we also get into a claim, if a player claims RB, then we will simply do this, instead of lynching him. Much like Phate's plan, mine too has it's flaws, drawbacks, and a whole lot of IFs.

O yeah right, sorry. So from Korlash's theory, thus dead vanilla switched 'blindly' to another alive player. Well, this could hurt town if the switcher accidentally target an innocents cop, doc, etc with the dead vanilla.

Yeah, I have no intention of just blindly switching powers here. The only real use I see for this is late game, when town no longer has unpowered left. So we can then switch the vanilla to the scum. This of course falls prey to the flaws that any lynch/vig kill has, which is we may target a towny thinking they are scum.

Don't be fooled ;.; he is that kind of scum...
Throwing thoughtless theory just like that...

I am that kind of town too... A double edged sword.. Ripper... slasher... Tearer... Gouger...I am the teeth in the darkness! I am the Wings in the dark! I am Korlash! ROAR!

[Thanatos]

Yeah, but that can dip into WIFOM for the record... but I agree that Korlash is seeming mostly townie to me.

That's not WIFOM, BTW. He gains nothing as scum by mentioning this. He doesn't make himself look any better or worse, though if he had a scum reason for this, he could just ask the mod directly.

So, in terms of my Scumdar on Korlash, his question changed it in no way. Doesn't make him look more town or less.

[Korlash]

As it should... Talking to the mod should not in anyway prove anything one way or another... I guess I need to take a closer look at QB then...

I guess I'm confused about why you'd feel the RB was a danger to the town if it was on a townie.

Um.. cause he would not know who was scum/town for sure and could easily block our cop or doc. And no, I will not put my faith in another player that he will "Not use his night action" as I have been screwed over by vigs before and I have no doubt a RB could do the same. To trust anyone to keep their word in a game of mafia is simply moronic.

[Drunken Piper]

Wow oh wow, I got my prod.
Seems like I am not posting enough for the mod.

Jex (1): Drunken Piper

Again, I do not mean to dis.
But my unvote you again seem to miss.

Korlash’s question to the mod means not much,
Seems scummy to attack, and rely on that crutch.

I do not agree the RB is a danger to the town.
If used properly could help bring scum down.

this thought by no means, means Korlash is scummy.
maybe his reasoning is off, or just plan crummy.

I guess I'm confused about why you'd feel the RB was a danger to the town if it was on a townie.

Also,

FOS Korlash

for giving the scum an idea they may not have thought of should they happen to have the reopener or the switcher.

This Fos does not make a lick of sense.

Vote Quickben

, seems like someone trying to stretch to go on the offense.

[Zhao]

Alright.

* My buddy? What are you implying?

* Why would you assume I would rush to Phate's defense?

* I was not the one who came up with the plan. That was Phate.

Vote: Zhao

while awaiting his answer. The quoted post seems like a whole lot of misrepresentation to me.

Ahhh, you got me there. When quickly browsing I thought Phate was carrying on your original plan, but I see that you proposed mass reveal while he wants the switcher+reopener to work in tandem. Both are wacky plans so I thought they meshed together.

[QuickBen]

As it should... Talking to the mod should not in anyway prove anything one way or another... I guess I need to take a closer look at QB then...

I guess I'm confused about why you'd feel the RB was a danger to the town if it was on a townie.

Um.. cause he would not know who was scum/town for sure and could easily block our cop or doc. And no, I will not put my faith in another player that he will "Not use his night action" as I have been screwed over by vigs before and I have no doubt a RB could do the same. To trust anyone to keep their word in a game of mafia is simply moronic.

If that's the case, then there's no point in discussing any plan at all. Who is to say that the switcher will participate? Or the reopener? Or the cop? To say that you don't want a valid role like the roleblocker in the game is, to borrow a phrase, quite simply moronic. A roleblocker can be a defacto doc/cop if his aim is true. I've seen a mafia player outed simply by the roleblocker choosing him the night he was to make the kill. The doc was already dead and voila- scum on a platter.

Now, as far as my FOS, I'm actually quite shocked at the reactions to it. Its an FOS people, not a vote. It says I think you've done something that could be construed as scummy and will be watching you.

And kabenon is correct in his assertion of the possible use of WIFOM. By its very nature, WIFOM is a tool that benefits the scum as it uses circular arguments to confuse the town. Anyone using a WIFOM defense is just as suspect as those who are strawmanning and using craplogic and lurking and barning.

[Thanatos]

I liked most of your post, but as I've already said, this is not a WIFOM situation. He can't bring it up to make him look "too scummy" because it changes, for me at least, my opinion of him in no direction. It's something that both a scum or town would do. It doesn't make him look any more innocent by doing it.

Furthermore, if he was asking for the information for scum business, then all he would need to do is ask the mod directly, through PMs, without looking for a townie excuse. He had no need to do it, and gained nothing from it, as either townie or scum.

Wine in front of me is not quite what this situation is.

[QuickBen]

I'm not saying he would or did do it to seem more townie. I'm saying it *could* have been done to appear more townie. Or more on point, that him doing it could be argued either way, so its pointless to do so. By itself, its not something I would (or did) vote him for. Now, if later on he has built up some kind of record for giving the scum ideas in thread, then yeah, he may garner my vote. Just because they're able to confer, doesn't mean they can necessarily come up with a plan like that. We don't have to help them, should they have the switcher or reopener in their ranks, ok?

Lets suppose he is scum. He asks himself, "Would any self-respecting scum ask this in thread?" "No." "Ok, I'll ask in thread and this appear to do something that no scum would do."

WIFOM is a situation in which two opposing answers can be arrived at based on trains of thought that are based on what you think others would do.

A person who says this would never belong to group X, therefore he must belong to group Y unless he is actually a part of group X and knew you would think that a person of group X would never say that and so he did to appear to be a part of the other group. Etc.

In the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that..."

[Off the Mark]

unvote:
vote: Zhao

I get the feeling he's not being straight with us, that's all.

[Phate]

If that's the case, then there's no point in discussing any plan at all. Who is to say that the switcher will participate? Or the reopener? Or the cop? To say that you don't want a valid role like the roleblocker in the game is, to borrow a phrase, quite simply moronic. A roleblocker can be a defacto doc/cop if his aim is true. I've seen a mafia player outed simply by the roleblocker choosing him the night he was to make the kill. The doc was already dead and voila- scum on a platter.

Firstly, simma' down nah' on the condenscension. That's my job. And besides, the people you're talking to are all (or mostly all) fully aware of the scope of the RB's power. The difference here is that the RB would be much more beneficial to scum while implementing this plan than it would be for town. Hence, if the RB dies, we should keep his power dead.

[QuickBen]

@MOD- Silly question that may have been answered already- If the role switcher targets a living player and a dead player, will we be notified of what power got switched to the dead player? (I.e.- will the opening post be updated, as in Puzzle- townie-

vanilla

roleblocker) or something like that?

You will not be told that what role the person has, but it will be made clear that the person no longer has that role.