Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[bji]

Why do you think Karnos couldn't have known Mal was town?

The full question was:

Why do you think Karnos couldn't have known Mal was town, thus making him scum?

And I do not understand the question. Please ask it again, more clearly.

[bji]

Fire, I believe it's time to claim your role.

stop role fishing

What is the difference between today's calls for iron to fully claim versus iron's post back on day 1 that you had a problem with here, such that you are not saying "stop role fishing" to anyone now?

[Foxbird]

Votecount 4.12

karnos

(2) - Nero Cain, PenguinPower

PenguinPower

(2) - Saru, Lowell

Nero Cain

(1) - ironstove

Not Voting

(3) - bji, MathBlade, karnos

With

8

players eligible to vote, it’s

5

to lynch!

Day 4 will end in

(expired on 2016-11-30 07:11:29).

Mod Notes:

None!

[Nero Cain]

There was no reason for Fire to claim. Why do you think he should have claimed?

There's a bit of a difference in Fire getting ran up and claiming a PR and Iron claiming unprompted for what reason I don't know. Don'tcha think?

[bji]

I probably have lynched town for this, does it matter? The point is there's possible scum motivation in ignoring a certain game. So explain to me what the town motivation is?

Um, you

definitely

have lynched town for this,

in this game

and yes, it does matter. Part of your defense of having started that wagon is to refer to external games where, if one read them presumably, one would see that in that game a player who flipped scum and had engaged in V/LA shenanigans. But that defense only makes sense if it can be used to demonstrate that you could reasonably believed that it was

more likely

that a player who engages in V/LA shenanigans is scum than town. And since your history with players engaging in V/LA shenanigans cannot be reliably identified, this defense cannot be expected to hold any weight with anyone.

My "town motivation" for not trusting your cherrypicked "evidence" blindly is that I want to use good sound reasoning in my scumhunting.

[bji]

There was no reason for Fire to claim. Why do you think he should have claimed?

I didn't say I thought he should have claimed. I am asking why YOU have a difference of opinion about these two situations with regards to whether or not people *should* or *should not* engage in role fishing.

There's a bit of a difference in Fire getting ran up and claiming a PR and Iron claiming unprompted for what reason I don't know. Don'tcha think?

Yes, I do think. But I asked you because I want to know what

you

think, not because I want an opportunity to say what I think.

[Nero Cain]

How do you know its cherry picked if you haven't and aren't going to read my previous games?

[Nero Cain]

but I just told you, they are different situations and shouldn't be treated the same. Like there was F all reason for Fire to claim what PR he was. I am ok with Iron full claiming b/c I don't necessarily see the point in claiming unprompted like he did and we can see if his claim lines up with normal guidelines.

[bji]

How do you know its cherry picked if you haven't and aren't going to read my previous games?

I don't know that it is cherry picked, but I can never know that it's not, unless I read every game you ever played (which I am not going to do, for obvious reasons), and also have some confidence that you never played under another name on this site or on another site (which I can never have).

The point is, it's unreliable "evidence", and a defense that requires me to accept unreliable evidence is not a sound defense.

[bji]

but I just told you, they are different situations and shouldn't be treated the same. Like there was F all reason for Fire to claim what PR he was. I am ok with Iron full claiming b/c I don't necessarily see the point in claiming unprompted like he did and we can see if his claim lines up with normal guidelines.

I agree with this thinking, and I feel the same way.

[Nero Cain]

I probably have lynched town for this, does it matter? The point is there's possible scum motivation in ignoring a certain game. So explain to me what the town motivation is?

Um, you

definitely

have lynched town for this,

in this game

and yes, it does matter. Part of your defense of having started that wagon is to refer to external games where, if one read them presumably, one would see that in that game a player who flipped scum and had engaged in V/LA shenanigans. But that defense only makes sense if it can be used to demonstrate that you could reasonably believed that it was

more likely

that a player who engages in V/LA shenanigans is scum than town. And since your history with players engaging in V/LA shenanigans cannot be reliably identified, this defense cannot be expected to hold any weight with anyone.

My "town motivation" for not trusting your cherrypicked "evidence" blindly is that I want to use good sound reasoning in my scumhunting.

And why can't my beliefs carry over?

[bji]

And why can't my beliefs carry over?

They can. But I can't know whether or not they did, so you'll have to come up with a better reason for why you voted for Mal, and if you can't, just accept that skepticism about your reasoning is rational.

[Nero Cain]

Second, even if I think that PP is scum, I am not going to just latch onto any supporting reason no matter how ridiculous it is. I am not trying to lynch scum for bad reasons, I am trying to lynch them for good reasons, and if a reason isn't good, I'm not going to agree with it, even if it supports my scum read.

If you think a slot is scum then everything they are doing in the game is done with a scum mindset. Its not impossible to do "pro-town" things as scum but I think its kinda cognitive dissonance to assume PP is scum that jumped on the Thor wagon and also think that scum wouldn't do it.

[Nero Cain]

In your last town game you were reading players as scummy for lurking, including BBT, who was scum. Can you explain to me how my belief that Mal was lurker scum is not a town mindset when you've gone after lurkers yourself as town?

[karnos]

Why do you think Karnos couldn't have known Mal was town?

This is such a "water is wet" statement I can't believe you are pushing it.

That statement could literally be true of everyone in the game, except MathBlade the innocent child.

I think we got this wrapped up. Nero is defending himself and Penguin as expected, they are probably the last two scum. If Nero is town, I'm sorry he has been duped so badly but I think he is better than that.

VOTE: Nero Cain

[Nero Cain]

The only players that know everyone's alignment is mafia. Nice opportunistic vote hop.

[PenguinPower]

Here comes karnos setting up the two mislynches needed for a scum win! Great job, karnos!

[Nero Cain]

BJ, do you think "cherry picking" is scummy?

[MathBlade]

Will work on my last will tonight but I want from everyone their list of reads in order of scumminess.
Exclude me and yourself.

Scummiest >> Towniest

[karnos]

Here comes karnos setting up the two mislynches needed for a scum win! Great job, karnos!

How on earth would I be setting up 2 miss-lynches? If we lynch you and you come back town, do you think anyone is going to be listening to me tomorrow?

[bji]

In your last town game you were reading players as scummy for lurking, including BBT, who was scum. Can you explain to me how my belief that Mal was lurker scum is not a town mindset when you've gone after lurkers yourself as town?

This is an OUTRIGHT LIE. Here is the closest I came to even considering lurking as scummy:

From http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6792639

"OK so, scum killed at least one player from the lurky category. As I said before, this suggests to me that there was little/no benefit in killing players from the "actually playing the game" category, which implies that the scum were not in any particular danger after Day 1. The scum kill of either Slandaar or evilpacman18 suggests to me that scum liked the Day 1 fighting between BBT/RC/me/Scripten. Of all the players in that group, there are two who have mostly escaped scum reads during Day 1: BBT and me. I'm not scum, so the only interesting person in the category of "players who played hard day 1 but didn't get many scum reads" is BBT.

Therefore, I categorize my likely scum as BBT, and one or more of the lurkers."

I was scum reading the lurkers for REASONS,

NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE LURKERS

.

AND, BBT WAS NOT EVEN IN THAT CATEGORY!

Furthermore, your vote on Mal had the unique characteristic of choosing the player with the least interaction with anyone, making it the optimal scum mislynch. You are conveniently ignoring that part of the argument, every time your defense of the wagon you started on Mal is brought up.

Furthermore to my furthermore, you didn't argue against Mal because he was lurking, it was because his V/LA status happened to coincide with day end.

You lie too much to be town.

VOTE: Nero Cain

[karnos]

Town

MathBlade

ironstove
bji

Saru
Lowell

Nero Cain

PenguinPower

Scum

[bji]

Will work on my last will tonight but I want from everyone their list of reads in order of scumminess.
Exclude me and yourself.

Scummiest >> Towniest

The formatting of karnos' list is gorgeous, I'm going to steal his technique:

Town

ironstove

karnos

Saru

Lowell

Penguin Power

Nero Cain

Scum

[bji]

Furthermore to my furthermore, you didn't argue against Mal because he was lurking, it was because his V/LA status happened to coincide with day end.

I need to clarify this because I think I made a mistake. I misremembered Nero's reasons for his vote, indeed he never mentioned V/LA coinciding with day end, that was I think LMKGuy who made that argument.

[Foxbird]

Boop.