Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[Foxbird]

Votecount 4.9

karnos

(2) - Nero Cain, PenguinPower

PenguinPower

(1) - karnos

Nero Cain

(1) - ironstove

Not Voting

(4) - Saru, bji, Lowell, MathBlade

With

8

players eligible to vote, it’s

5

to lynch!

Day 4 will end in

(expired on 2016-11-30 07:11:29).

Mod Notes:

None!

[PenguinPower]

What part of that made you change your read on me, the unvote? the scum read on nero?

Or, maybe, my re-read of your rationale and strategy to push for MB's lynch post IC reveal, and re-read of your interactions with Thor. Yes, I called you obvtown, and that's why I wanted you added to the neighborhood. I was wrong. One's townieness is fluid, not static.

Your behavior is scum!karnos. I have yet to be wrong when I get that gut feeling.

[karnos]

We are going around in circles. I agree with bji that we need some feedback from lowell & saru.

[PenguinPower]

(pp is referring to karnos)

This is such a blatant misrep I don't even know how to address it. Read Karnos' ISO. He was equally against Thor and Saru from way, way back on Day 1, and if you look at the number of times he addressed points directly to or from Thor, it's quite clear that he's intensely interested in Thor as well as Saru. So how is it inconsistent for him to have hammered one of the two players he consistently scum read?

Not a misrep in the least, though your taking this out of context is interesting. I'm clearly talking about his vote. He never once placed his vote on Thor D1. I can scream someone is scummy all day long, but if I don't put a vote on that person then it's all empty words.

Also, during my re-read of karnos to make sure what I said above was accurate I found two things that I found interesting in our current situation:

My other scum partner was also busing me much of the game. And you STILL failed to get me lynched- in fact you decided I was a good target to recruit as a mason, and you killed yourself trying to recruit me.

This makes me believe that karnos and Thor were SvS D1, and karnos hardbussed D2. Had to lynch D3 given the bad claim. Arona/I thought karnos was a good target to recruit into the Neighborhood.

Town: it's a scum claim to quick hammer, don't do it.

Nice scum claim quickhammering Thor.

[bji]

Spoiler: You can see over this wall

Not a misrep in the least, though your taking this out of context is interesting. I'm clearly talking about his vote. He never once placed his vote on Thor D1. I can scream someone is scummy all day long, but if I don't put a vote on that person then it's all empty words.

I am getting a little lost in what the argument is about here. It was my impression that you are trying to make points about why Karnos' hammer of Thor made no sense, and was trying to use the fact that Karnos never voted for Thor day 1 and otherwise mostly had his vote on Saru as evidence for this. The point I am trying to make is that Karnos may have had his vote mostly on Saru but he expressed tremendous interest in Thor and called him scum numerous times along with Saru, so to me, a Karnos hammer of Thor is not inconsistent with his position. And when I say that your argument is a misrep, it's because Karnos' position was so clear and his vote on Thor so wells supported by his previous postings, that to suggest otherwise doesn't seem like it can have an innocent motivation.

Also I think that it's patently false to say that if you don't vote someone, then all of your statements about them are just empty words. There were 3 scum on Day 1 and one can't vote all three at once so does that mean that on day 1 it's not possible to have more than one scum read? And that it's not possible to make any more progress towards winning the game than to place a vote on one scum? Where "progress" here means placing suspicion on the one suspected scum you happen to be voting? Obviously not, therefore your statement is false.

Finally, let's assume that what you say is true, and that only votes count. Then Karnos redeemed himself by voting Thor didn't he? Because he finally did something beyond "empty words" with regards to Thor?

By saying that his repeated talking about and question of Thor and also outright calling Thor scum, but not voting him, was scummy, and also saying that his actual vote of Thor was scummy, you are basically in retrospect making Karnos' scumminess a truism; he was scummy if he did vote Thor, and scummy if he didn't, according to your position.

Town: it's a scum claim to quick hammer, don't do it.

Nice scum claim quickhammering Thor.

You see, this also feels misreppy to me. The Thor hammer was not a traditional quickhammer, so here you are misrepresenting the hammer to make it fit your position against Karnos.

I think most people would recognize, and those who don't need some education, that a quickhammer is a hammer that is done without giving time for town to discuss the now very imminent lynch, usually including not giving time for a claim, and always when further discussion of the lynch has merit and therefore the hammer being "quick" eliminates the possibility of this discussion.

It is quite clear that the Thor situation was different. His outed fake claim was very close to 100% going to get him lynched that day. I believe that the hammer was actually the CORRECT TOWN PLAY in that situation because any further discussion beyond Thor's lynch could 100% be done on the next day, and deferring it was actually beneficial to town because it was less info for scum for their NK. The singular and only difference between having any discussion beyond the Thor lynch on Day 3 instead of Day 4 is that there would be one less town player on Day 4; but this is neither a reason for nor a reason against having the discussion on Day 4 instead of Day 3 since while one less town player means one less player who could inject town motivation into the discussion, it is also one less player to misidentify as town and thus making it that much easier to zero in on actual scum. That issue being a wash, all we're left with is the deferral of the discussion being better for town because it gave scum less info for their NK.

Karnos' quickhammer being the correct town play does not guarantee that he is town, by the way, but it certainly is not a reason to call him scummy.

[PenguinPower]

Lots of unnecessary words.

1st wall: I guess we disagree. I think votes are the only thing that matter in the end, and karnos was weakly pushing Thor while voting elsewhere. I already said his D2 was bussing, and D3 had to happen given the claim. Literally said that right above.

2nd wall: Whatever. It was a quickhammer.
From Wiki:

is a technique (usually) used by scum to

secure a lynch by hammering a player before anyone can react.

[bji]

Lots of unnecessary words.

1st wall: I guess we disagree. I think votes are the only thing that matter in the end, and karnos was weakly pushing Thor while voting elsewhere. I already said his D2 was bussing, and D3 had to happen given the claim. Literally said that right above.

2nd wall: Whatever. It was a quickhammer.
From Wiki:

is a technique (usually) used by scum to

secure a lynch by hammering a player before anyone can react.

OK so you prefer terse and uninformative arguments. Message received and understood.

You are wrong, and you are wrong.

Better?

[PenguinPower]

Yep.

[MathBlade]

Lowell and Saru need to do something will be afk most of today.

[Saru]

Sorry about no posts yesterday. Had a cold sweat and nearly puked a couple of times. Feel much better now.

After catching up, I can see that Penguin is scum here. No two ways about it, honestly. Scum killing Arona last night means that scum knew that Arona was a PR, so it could only be Penguin or Karnos. And given that Karnos was added after Arona died, the scum has to be Penguin.

Penguin might say "well maybe the scum just happened to kill arona by coincidence" to which I would reply...no. You see, arona isn't the type of player who the scum would have targeted last night. Players like Math and bji are much more valuable to kill off since they're active and seem to have a good nose for scum overall. Arona tunneled me pretty much the entire game and scum would love nothing but town tunneling town, so no reason to kill him off other than they knew he was a PR.

Plus, Thor wanted Karnos 24/7 and Karnos wanted Thor nearly 24/7. Someone made the point that you don't tunnel your encryptor two days in a row, which is valid. So just on that front, Karnos would be town.

Not to mention that Penguin's arguments for scum!Karnos are hilariously bad. Like you seriously can't be arguing that what Karnos did yesterday was a scum quick-hammer. Like, no. Thor was obvious scum and pretty much everyone wanted him dead. Scum quick-hammers usually come with the caveat that no one was expecting it, but I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't be surprised that obvious scum!Thor would be hammered that quickly. This isn't even something you could argue.

So, whose the third partner? For me, it's down to Lowell or Nero, and given some of Nero's shit posts yesterday:

Bj can be town I guess.

Not going to put Thor in hammer range yet.

well unless something happens to the nk we lose a townie so

isn't that reason enough to not lynch Thor right off?

TBH Thor I see very little reason why we shouldn't lynch you today.

Convince me.

I'm heavily leaning towards Nero.
VOTE: PenguinPower

[MathBlade]

No one hammer until I put together my last will please.

I am 99% sure I would be NK'd as conf town so I want to leave a big wall of final thoughts before I get killed.

[ironstove]

Penguin give me your scum team, if you flip town I'll seriously consider a karnos scum but the way this game has played out that makes utterly no sense fmpov

[ironstove]

Inb4 Nero quick hammers Lul

[ironstove]

BTW I'm a PR. But I haven't and don't plan to use my power tonight either.

[MathBlade]

Oh and also force Lowell to post something. I will need it for my last will.

[MathBlade]

BTW I'm a PR. But I haven't and don't plan to use my power tonight either.

So you are scum claiming? No way there are 5 PRs for town in a 10 town game.

[karnos]

I'm confident penguin is scum, but I'll unvote to ensure mathblade can post further.

UNVOTE: penguin

[karnos]

Maybe a negative utility PR?

[ironstove]

You might just be scum ironstone.

Wow that post was horrible. Nero is obvtown.

Why is Nero obvious town??????

[ironstove]

BTW I'm a PR. But I haven't and don't plan to use my power tonight either.

So you are scum claiming? No way there are 5 PRs for town in a 10 town game.

If I'm not a PR then you quit this site forever???

[MathBlade]

Will explain in my last will.

Are you scum claiming? We know scum have a roleblocker from FA's claim. So Encryptor + roleblocker.

[MathBlade]

BTW I'm a PR. But I haven't and don't plan to use my power tonight either.

So you are scum claiming? No way there are 5 PRs for town in a 10 town game.

If I'm not a PR then you quit this site forever???

No. I don't respond to threats like that. I won't quit the site regardless of your alignment. If I quit it will be when I want to.

[ironstove]

I'm town claiming and if you really think I'm scum then Lynch me, I'm making my claim now because I'd rather do it before the flip and going in tomorrow incase it is my mylo to clear myself.

I'll hard claim if I see a benefit but rn I don't.

[ironstove]

Yes I have a crumb all the way from d1 to back my story but I doubt you'll find it unless I quote it

[ironstove]

I already told you if I am a pr you quit this site forever and if not then I'll quit. If you won't accept my terms then stop questioning me