Wow. Three votes in one hour is impressive. Take a bow, Adel. Oh wait, you already did. Votes piling on that fast is especially ironic considering how up in arms everyone is about how fast the korlash wagon was. I put korlash at -1 because I found a post that proved he had lied in THIS game, without even needing to use his other ongoing games. The only "case" that has been presented against me is the statement "someone must have been bussing so vote Setael!!" Some case.
Abstract, post 812 wrote:There were three posts in question. The first post in this game that he mentions not knowing about the role, a much later post in this game where he defends his ignorance about the role and the post/events from the other game. The post/events from the other game came after the first post in question.
If it came before then the case would be as cut and dry as many were saying.
The fact that it game before his defensive post was bad, but not damning, in my opinion.
I bolded that part to emphasize since it WAS "as cut and dry as many were saying" if you take post 521 into account, which for some reason you aren't. You are saying that post 585 was the first of your "three posts in question" where he says he doesn't know about the role. I'll repost mine here for you, since you seem to be unaware of his post 521 which was long before 585 (the one you're stating was the first post made). Anyone who read my post and compared korlash's posts 521 and 585 would have seen that he had obviously lied.
setael wrote:Oddly enough, while looking for what everyone's talking about in korlash's other games I found this:
korlash on Nov. 10, post 521 (this game) wrote:WRONG! When I am mafia I find that I am actually a very unhelpful goon, but tend to be very good when I am say the mafia RB or the Don... saying I am a helpful goon obviously means you missed something!
korlash on Nov. 12, post 585 wrote:Theres a mafia RB too? o.O Now that role would work... cause then you would at least have some kind of understanding of who could be who... Instead of having to guess...
Regardless of the fact that korlash says he was joking in 521 and is always town, it seems clear from that post that he at least knows that the role of mafia RB exists which he is later denying. I can't see any reason a townie would lie in this situation (unless it's ABR and I'd like to hope he's the only one that fits that profile).
Jistu to answer your question: I haven’t liked Set since…
curiouskarmadog wrote:this was directed to Set, guess he missed it the first time.
curiouskarmadog wrote:
What are your thoughts on Korlash? You think he is our town RB then? Reasons? I guess the mafia wasnt too worried about him., thoughts?
Then,
Setael wrote:I guess you missed where I've already addressed that.
setael wrote:i've seen no reason to doubt his claim. I've never played a game that had a mafia roleblocker but several of my games have had town roleblockers.
I think Flay has a point that the mafia would see korlash as someone they could get lynched much more easily than mexal. In fact, mafia would probably then feed us statements like "I guess the mafia wasnt too worried about him., thoughts?"
Set decided he wanted to attack me and insinuate that I was mafia, instead of fully addressing my question about Korlash.
curiouskarmadog wrote:
you have only answered questions about his claim, you have failed to answer twice, about your thoughts on Korlash, for there is more to him than his claim.
What are you saying, since I said that, I must be scum? Where is your vote on me then?
Setael wrote:
@ckd: Though I find korlash's defense of anata odd for the same reasons I find your defense of anata odd, I am not willing to lynch a claimed power role.
Why do you want me to vote you so badly? Tell me why you are a better candidate than jitsu or gunslinger whom I also find scummy, and I'll consider awarding you with my vote.
Here he is not willing to lynchd a claimed power role (as we know that changes has it becomes obvious that Korlash will be lynched)
Then we have
Setael wrote:@ckd: You really have a bad habit of misconstruing what people say. This is probably why you're not the best scum hunter. You do this thing where you pick someone who is actually a townie (though you don't know that until they card flip), and you interpret what they say in a way that will get them to fit into your scum mold. I have seen you do this as town, so no I'm not sure enough about your alignment to vote you. Yes, I think that if scum chose to not kill a power role, they would then be motivated to plant WIFOM arguments like the statement you made, in order to try to get the town to mislynch a power role. Does that mean I know for sure you are scum and that's what you were doing? Nope. You could've said it as town too so why does that mean I HAVE to vote you? As I said, I'm looking at 3 players I find scummy ALL of which I could be wrong about and ALL of which could be scum buddies. I haven't decided which to vote for. You're doing a good job at fighting for the top spot though. Keep it up.
Here he says I am a bad scum hunter and basically threatens me to back off. Where do you stand on this now Korlash is found to be scum?
Also you never addressed this.
curiouskarmadog wrote:
I also think it is interesting how you mentioned our ONE previous game together(which you replaced into). You should also note that we were both town and you agreed with my analysis at the time and your votes reflected mine.
Jitsu, it was Set’s attitude yesterday that I didn’t like and is overall ignoring stance on Korlash, that is why I posted my Korlash case I said.
curiouskarmadog wrote:
I am interested in what Ole Set, thinks about all of this.
"not a good scum hunter" my ass.
I support a set lynch, but there is a couple other things I need to find in the reread that before I vote(no time now)..not to mention I would like to hear from others, and Gun’s replacement if we get one.
Setael wrote:I bolded that part to emphasize since it WAS "as cut and dry as many were saying" if you take post 521 into account, which for some reason you aren't. You are saying that post 585 was the first of your "three posts in question" where he says he doesn't know about the role. I'll repost mine here for you, since you seem to be unaware of his post 521 which was long before 585 (the one you're stating was the first post made). Anyone who read my post and compared korlash's posts 521 and 585 would have seen that he had obviously lied.
When the argument was first being discussed 521 hadn't been found yet. I agree that 585 was definitely a lie in light of 521. Most people didn't vote for Korlash with that fact in hand (only you and possibly jerubbaal did). I did miss the significance of post 521 when I first read your post since I realized that a hammer had just fallen. In my first read, I just read the strange way he explains how he plays as scum.
That post doesn't clear you as town, but it justifies your vote, in my opinion.
CKD, you're misrepresenting me, especially with statements like this one:
CKD wrote:Here
he is not willing to lynchd a claimed power role (as we know that changes has it becomes obvious that Korlash will be lynched)
I'm never willing to lynch an uncounter-claimed power role without reason. This quickly changes when it's proven they're a scummy liar. Is that so surprising? It is a lie to say that I changed my mind because "it was obvious Korlash would be lynched". Evidently it wasn't obvious he'd be lynched to everyone who thinks the wagon was too fast. It was, however, obvious he was lying after I saw post 521 and THAT is why I changed my mind. You're making false assumptions about me which is either careless or scummy. Or both.
Abstract wrote:When the argument was first being discussed 521 hadn't been found yet. I agree that 585 was definitely a lie in light of 521. Most people didn't vote for Korlash with that fact in hand (only you and possibly jerubbaal did). I did miss the significance of post 521 when I first read your post since I realized that a hammer had just fallen. In my first read, I just read the strange way he explains how he plays as scum.
That post doesn't clear you as town, but it justifies your vote, in my opinion.
Well, thank you for that concession. Care to tell me what you think of everyone else who thinks my vote WASN'T justified? Do you think they missed the significance of post 521 like you did, or are they intentionally ignoring it?
@AA - It was cut and dry. Korlash lied. LAL. I don't really think there's a ton to say here.
@Flay - I understand that dropping isn't scummy in and of itself, but I didn't understand your pressure on Gunslinger to be a post or perish approach. You seemed fixated on him as the best case for the day, beyond even what had been caught regarding Korlash. I'm not sure how getting a replacement changes the case on Gunslinger, aside explaining some of his lack of activity. If his lack of activity was the only reason you were so hot on him day 2, I don't think that's sufficient reason, especially compared to the Korlash case.
I really don't like what you're doing here. You go through and explain your own tendencies as scum and then describe exactly how you don't meet those tendencies this time around.
Mr. Flay wrote:I'm known for at least two things that make the current bandwagon suspicious: Throwing partners under the bus (in which case there was no reason for me to wait for CKD to point out Korlash's lie), and overly analytical posts (in which case the supposed "framing" of Setael is laughable).
Saying "This is what I do when I'm scum, and I'm not doing that now, so I must not be scum" is hardly a valid argument. The fact that you are self-aware enough to identify your own foibles as scum suggests that you are smart enough to adjust those tendencies when necessary.
However, the idea of a clever Korlash makes me giggle as well.
I need to do more reading on Set before I express an opinion, but I expect the next couple days to be pretty busy. You may have to still your beating hearts and wait a couple days for my masterfully conclusive analysis which will make everything clear to all minds, without a doubt.
Or maybe I'll just tell other people to think for me.
Setael wrote:Well, thank you for that concession. Care to tell me what you think of everyone else who thinks my vote WASN'T justified? Do you think they missed the significance of post 521 like you did, or are they intentionally ignoring it?
I don't think your guilt rested solely upon your late switch to Korlash.
Anata112 was suspicious on day 1. This can be mostly ignored if you give a replacement a clean slate.
Korlash was the biggest advocate of slowing down an Anata112 lynch on day 1. I also resisted an Anata112 lynch, but that is neither here nor there.
Korlash cast his dieing vote on you.
You did switch to Korlash when the bandwagon seemed inevitable. Even though I concede you found good reason to do so, that doesn't mean you aren't scum. You may have had this piece of information in your back pocket all along and been waiting to use it until you saw that a Korlash lynch was inevitable. Or you may have decided, "Korlash is going down, I need to get a vote in for him, but I don't want it to seem like I'm switching late for no new reason", and you went out and found something new to justify your vote.
Abstract wrote:Korlash was the biggest advocate of slowing down an Anata112 lynch on day 1.
I'd call you a liar, but I think your problem is just that you are sloppy. Did you really forget about CKD's defense of Anata, or are you just choosing to ignore it because it weakens your argument? At least you admit that you did it as well, but it is entertaining that you use it as evidence that korlash was defending a scum buddy, and yet claim it means nothing that you did the same thing.
@CKD: I sense that you're wanting me to admit I was wrong about your scum hunting ability. Ok, I admit it. After that game where we were masons together, I thought you were the worst scum hunter ever. Nice guy, but you were wrong about everyone you suspected. You had elaborate, convincing cases on several townies that you pushed until you finally got them mislynched. (Am I wrong about this?) Your hunch that korlash was scum made me think he was probably town.
I don't believe that you were bussing korlash, and you have redeemed yourself as far as my assumptions about you went. You were right about korlash, and you were right about Anata when you defended her. Apology accepted?
Setael wrote:
@CKD: I sense that you're wanting me to admit I was wrong about your scum hunting ability. Ok, I admit it. After that game where we were masons together, I thought you were the worst scum hunter ever. Nice guy, but you were wrong about everyone you suspected. You had elaborate, convincing cases on several townies that you pushed until you finally got them mislynched. (Am I wrong about this?) Your hunch that korlash was scum made me think he was probably town.
I don't believe that you were bussing korlash, and you have redeemed yourself as far as my assumptions about you went. You were right about korlash, and you were right about Anata when you defended her. Apology accepted?
I guess my problem with you is that you decided to bring up this one game (which I did mislynch two people, but also hammered a scum as well) you and I played in, and used it to discredit me. Now, you have not metaed any other games to see if I am indeed a horrid scum hunter. You did not mention that you agreed with me at this time of the mislynches and voted as well and you tool barked up the wrong tree many times in that game. You just chose to discredit me...hell you didnt even offered to provide a link to the game you chose to discredit me with. (if anybody wants a link to this ended game, let me know)
I find it interesting that you bring up Korlash. At the time you tried to discredit me, I had not really provided my thoughts on Korlash(nothing more than something is sticking out about him, had to reread). I simply asked you your thoughts on him and his claim. (point of reference, page 30). I was asking you questions about your thoughts, but you decided you wanted to to suggest I was mafia. When I inquired why you had not expressed these suspicious until now (asking where the vote was), you came back with asking why I wanted a vote so badly, threats, and then referencing a game (but not in it's full). So are you saying at this point you thought Korlash was probably town because I thought what exactly?
I find this suspect.
I am not sure what you are apologizing for. For saying I am a bad scum hunter or the fact that you tried to discredit me, without providing ALL of the facts from that game.
if it is for the first, it is accepted, though I am not admitting that I am a great scum hunter, I am still a student of the game, but to say I am a bad scum hunter was uncalled for...and I am curious what prompted you to "go there".
if it is the latter, well, that is a different story all together.
Damn. I thought that the thanksgiving weekend would be slow. Shows me, eh?
I'll finish rereading later- I've been on a 96 hour turkey and pie bender, and I need some sleep.
One time, back in 'nam, Sudo was set upon by an entire squadron of charlies. He challenged them all to a game of Pictionary, which he won resoundingly. The charlies were forced to not only surrender the skirmish, but also their world-famous chili recipe, which Sudo sold to Texas for a hefty profit. Sudo is a master of diplomacy.
I actually did not realize that I put Setael at L-2. I do want to keep up the pressure on her because she is still my top suspect, but not at the cost of ignoring other potential suspects. I think Setael is the best lynch at the moment, but I'm really not in a hurry to do it this second. I'm happy with the amount of attention she has on her right now. A Setael lynch can certainly wait until Oman gets caught up, Jerub rereads, and Sudo weighs in, and other suspects are discussed. I don't believe that Setael will get quicklynched here, but it's not worth taking the chance. I will
Unvote
for now, but
my intent at the moment is to revote her after things have been discussed
.
Actually, I don't have a problem with Setael's vote on Korlash, as the vote was justified, and she did state a decent reason in my eyes. As I mentioned previously, I am more concerned about how she appeared to defend the quick hammer and choose to focus the people that did NOT vote Korlash.
all I'm saying is that if you're going to throw your buddy under the bus, than you would better off providing a good reason for doing it. Did Korlash react in any kind of particular way to any of the people who voted late on his wagon? Did he
That's a good question. I wanted to find the answer, so here's a summary I put together for myself on how the Korlash wagon went down, starting with post 762, where CKD finds the meta on Korlash:
L-5 (Adel): Adel had her vote on Korlash before the meta was found.
L-4 (CKD, 762): CKD votes for Korlash because of the meta he found. Korlash's response is that CKD was making up stuff (763), then a little later, acknowledges the meta but says CKD is mistaken and the dates are wrong (766).
Adel revotes Korlash (768), even though she was already voting him, praising CKD for finding the meta. Korlash's response is nothing special, basically a comment that Adel was already voting him.
Korlash says he finds it funny that CKD found the meta but then claims that it actually proves his case about his naivete about the Mafia RB (772). In (774), I post that I can see the meta and that it doesn't look good for Korlash.
L-3 (Mr. Flay, 777): Flay votes for Korlash because of Korlash's professed support of the "posting lost of fluff and looking like an idiot town" strategy -- Flay says it is a hindrance to the town. Flay does not comment on the meta evidence itself but calls Korlash on his statement in (759) that Flay should meta him. Korlash's response is to reiterate that this is how he plays and makes more jokes. At the end of (785), Korlash votes Setael (forgetting to bold it), saying it is because she didn't thank him for helping out Anata on Day 1. Then he comments (786) how the town keeps trying to go for crappy lynches. Mentions the Anata bandwagon again here and refers to "Queen Adel" coming into the game. He says he can't see why his behavior is anti-town and that it's just his nature.
L-2 (Sudo_Nym, 788): Sudo votes for Korlash because he doesn't believe his claim and doesn't care for his playstyle. Korlash's response is to joke about how he predicted that Sudo would vote him.
L-1 (Setael, 795): Initially, in (792), she asks how to find Korlash's posts in other games; Flay and Adel help. Then in (795), she finds a contradiction between posts 521 and 585 in this game and votes Korlash for that, saying she found it while looking for what everyone was talking about in Korlash's other games. Korlash does not respond.
Hammer (Jerubaal, 797): Seems to know he is the hammer. States that the Korlash case is very strong and based on little speculation, so he sees little reason to drag the day out any longer, and congratulates those who caught the contradictions. As this is the hammer, Korlash has no response.
Analysis:
Korlash's strongest reactions were to CKD (presumably for finding the meta), and to Flay (probably due to Flay blasting him for his anti-town playstyle). He barely reacted to Sudo at all at L-2. He did not react to the L-1 vote (Setael) either, presumably because it was only 75 minutes before he was hammered, and the death scene was posted a mere 9 minutes after the hammer.
Of the people on the Korlash wagon after CKD posted about the Meta, the best reasons seemed to be from Setael and Flay, given that they actually were responding to specific posts from Korlash. Of the two, I'll say that Setael's was a bit stronger only because she found another contradiction, this time totally within the game.
The other noticeable connection of course, is the Setael/Korlash connection. The funny thing is that Korlash voted Setael in (785), about 18 hours before she votes him (795). Setael did not comment on Korlash's vote on her at all. Perhaps that's just good play, choosing not to be overdefensive against someone circling the drain at L-1. Maybe the silence is an attempt at distancing (but even then, distancing oneself from Korlash was probably not a bad idea for anyone at that point, so not mentioning his vote is probably more of a null tell).
But why would Korlash vote for her when he did? Setael had not even hinted she was interested in the meta then -- Korlash voted her (785), complained again about the Day 1 wagon on Anata (786), then fixed his vote for Setael (787). Setael did not even mention her desire to look up the meta on him until (792), and her criticism of Korlash before that didn't really stand out to me as being stronger than anyone else's (I need to reread this). Korlash's reason for voting her was so crappy, it should have been obvious that noone would believe it. To me, it seems that he was either trying to distance from her (in a clumsy attempt to protect her) or trying to make it look like he was distancing from her (in a somewhat more subtle attempt to get her mislynched). I'm more inclined to believe the former than the latter.
Given Korlash's strategy of acting annoying, fluffing up the thread, and playing the idiot townie, bussing him would seem to be a good strategy move and could well have been something he discussed with his scumbuddies in advance.
This was a good analysis, jitsu, up until that last paragraph.
jitsu wrote:Setael did not even mention her desire to look up the meta on him until (792)
I didn't know how to quickly find posts from other games. I tried to figure it out but wasn't getting anywhere, so I asked in the thread.
jitsu wrote:her criticism of Korlash before that didn't really stand out to me as being stronger than anyone else's
I don't think I criticized him much at all once he claimed. I believed the claim until it became obvious he was lying.
jitsu wrote:Korlash's reason for voting her was so crappy, it should have been obvious that noone would believe it. To me, it seems that he was either trying to distance from her (in a clumsy attempt to protect her) or trying to make it look like he was distancing from her (in a somewhat more subtle attempt to get her mislynched).
Do you really think that was a serious vote? I was attacking both korlash and ckd for defending anata because it looked like they both KNEW she was town. He responds with a vote on me for not thanking him for the anata defense. I did not comment on that vote because it was obviously a joke.
I appreciate you unvoting to avoid a quicklynch, even though I agree that is unlikely. If I get to -1, I will expect to be allowed to claim, though I will not do so before -1.
Setael wrote:I appreciate you unvoting to avoid a quicklynch, even though I agree that is unlikely. If I get to -1, I will expect to be allowed to claim, though I will not do so before -1.
Wow. Korlash version 2? What a scummy, terrible town play. You're basically claiming at L-3.
Jitsu wrote:L-2 (Sudo_Nym, 788): Sudo votes for Korlash because he doesn't believe his claim and doesn't care for his playstyle. Korlash's response is to joke about how he predicted that Sudo would vote him.
[clipped]
Korlash's strongest reactions were to CKD (presumably for finding the meta), and to Flay (probably due to Flay blasting him for his anti-town playstyle).
He barely reacted to Sudo at all at L-2.
He did not react to the L-1 vote (Setael) either, presumably because it was only 75 minutes before he was hammered, and the death scene was posted a mere 9 minutes after the hammer.
I would interpret this in a slightly different way. In the last two rounds Korlash kept going on about how Sudo_Nym and GunslingerKB were prepared to vote for him on a whim at any time. Then he basically predicts it again a few posts before Sudo_Nym's vote, here.
Korlash wrote:Huh.. I was half expecting to come home today and find meat L-1 or even lynched... I guess that is cause Sudo and Gun haven't posted in huh XD
The point is, I could see this being 1 of 2 things, that both lead to Sudo_Nym and GunslingerKB being potential scumbuddies. First, Korlash may have wanted to hammer home the fact that Sudo_Nym and GunslingerKB have been voting for Korlash all game long. Second, he may have been saying, "it's ok, guys, I am fine with you bussing me, go ahead and vote."
Wait, I just found something else. I started looking at where Setael entered the game and looked at her reactions to Korlash. As I was reading I found this:
Post 663:
Adel wrote:
Mr. Flay wrote:"Mafia Roleblocker" is a newer type of role, and not as common as some players here would like you to believe.
Since August 2006, Mafia roleblocker has appeared as a role 6 times in a mini-normal, while a protown roleblocker has only been used three times.
NabakovNabakov has been registered with mafiascum.net for less than a year, and has not played in any game with either type of roleblocker.
Korlash is currently a player in an ongoing game where a mafia roleblocker was lynched D2. (note: this line is very close to the boundary of talking about an ongoing game. I believe it to be a legal sentence because it is publically available information from a deathscene written by that game's moderator.
My conclusion is that NabakovNabakov is more likely to include a Mafia roleblocker than a normal roleblocker.... oh, wait. I take that back.
unvote
I'm not nearly as confident as I was before. I think I just talked myself into giving Korlash the benefit of the doubt.
This is exactly I was talking about when I was trying to explain the meta. It was possible to find this out by simply reading the first (summary) post of all the games Korlash was involved in. There was no need to even read any of Korlash's posts. Given some things CKD said, I'm guessing that he may have found something else by actually reading Korlash's posts.
I'm not sure what to make of this, because all of this, plus the contradiction Setael found between posts 521 and 585 in this game, were sitting out in plain sight long, long before CKD posted about finding the meta.
Given what Korlash said in 521 and 585, Adel had more evidence of Korlash's lie sitting in her hands! But instead she decided to unvote. After a reread, the paragraph above where Adel takes back her conclusion and unvotes sounds really strange to me.
Again, I'm not sure what to make of this yet, because it seems like a lot of the players (myself included) just missed this.
Setael wrote:
I appreciate you unvoting to avoid a quicklynch, even though I agree that is unlikely. If I get to -1, I will expect to be allowed to claim, though I will not do so before -1.
LOL, this does seem Korlash-ish...now I want to hear the claim..saying this is just going to make people push to put you to -1
Setael wrote:
I appreciate you unvoting to avoid a quicklynch, even though I agree that is unlikely. If I get to -1, I will expect to be allowed to claim, though I will not do so before -1.
LOL, this does seem Korlash-ish...now I want to hear the claim..saying this is just going to make people push to put you to -1
also, why would you not just wait till -1 to claim, what was the motivation behind posting this? All decent mafia players know to wait at -1 for a claim.
This is exactly I was talking about when I was trying to explain the meta. It was possible to find this out by simply reading the first (summary) post of all the games Korlash was involved in. There was no need to even read any of Korlash's posts. Given some things CKD said, I'm guessing that he may have found something else by actually reading Korlash's posts.
I'm not sure what to make of this, because all of this, plus the contradiction Setael found between posts 521 and 585 in this game, were sitting out in plain sight long, long before CKD posted about finding the meta.
Given what Korlash said in 521 and 585, Adel had more evidence of Korlash's lie sitting in her hands! But instead she decided to unvote. After a reread, the paragraph above where Adel takes back her conclusion and unvotes sounds really strange to me.
Again, I'm not sure what to make of this yet, because it seems like a lot of the players (myself included) just missed this.
sweet chirst, I missed it too. Adel, said the exact same thing I found (mostly excluding dates and post reads from another game), but the heart of it was there.
Good catch jitsu, I need to go back and read the timing of these posts.
Setael wrote:This was a good analysis, jitsu, up until that last paragraph.
Why? Because bussing is such a completely unfathomable possibility?? I can't believe that at all.
If a scum acts like Korlash did, what other strategy should the scum use? Supporting his craplogic and fluff is really, really dangerous, especially on Day 1. Distancing oneself from him is certainly an option, but bussing him seems to be a much better play if the scum can pull it off. Given the trouble Korlash was already in at the end of Day 1 because of his weak claim that most people didn't seem to believe, I would think that his scumbuddies would have to seriously think about bussing him to try to get townie points out of it.
