Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[Foxbird]

Votecount 2.13

Saru

(2) - aronagrundy, ironstove

Thor665

(3) - karnos, Fire Assassin, bji

LmkGuy

(1) - Lowell

Lowell

(2) - Saru, LmkGuy

bji

(3) - Nero Cain, Thor665, PenguinPower

Not Voting

(0) - No one!

With

11

players eligible to vote, it’s

6

to lynch!

Day 2 will end in

(expired on 2016-11-11 12:47:28).

Mod Notes:

None!

[Thor665]

It is tiring arguing with you because you act like any evaluation that anyone

else

makes has to have perfectly airtight justification, but you are free to sheep votes

for awful reasons

and we're all just supposed to accept that as great play.

Okay? I don't think I magically stop applying logic to myself - but run with that if you can.

You also tend to ask questions that feel like the whole purpose is to tire/wear the other player out. I have been observing this from you all game; find the question that takes the minimal effort for you to ask, but the maximal effort for anyone else to respond to. Seems like a strategy designed to exert your will by wearing opponents out.

I would agree with that - I've described my scumhunting methods in the past and this is assuredly part of it.

Nothing about the strategy I described is about gut reaction. I described a metric for evaluating players that is based on looking at the evidence in situ instead of trying to gather evidence through questioning. What about that approach deserves being called making reads by gut reaction?

That you claim you are basing it off your thoughts of what they are doing rather than confirming they are doing what you think - ergo, you are ignoring evidence and the ability to assess evidence, and going with simply your thoughts intentionally ignoring the possibility to confirm/disprove them.

Sorry it's just a personal policy of mine not to read external games. If you think that makes my play weaker, oh well. I come to this site to enjoy myself, and slogging through prior games to look for circumstantial evidence is not my idea of fun and I'm not going to do it. And if you point some cherrypicked content from another game out to me, I could only trust that evidence if I could confirm that it is not contradicted by other evidence from other games. And since like I just said I'm not doing that slogging, I simply cannot rely on anything from exterior games at all.

Says the guy basing his entire concept of my play off one game, and two votes.
When you meet someone for the first time do you think you know everything about them from one meeting, or do you discover new things on subsequent interactions? Your logic is so inherently flawed I'm not even sure why you think it sounds good.

I also do not play alts because I can't be bothered, I never play more than one game at a time, and I always replace into every other game and start from the outset on every other game. It's just the way I roll, dog.

...okay...are you trying to educate me on your meta play? First off, since you think that info from other games is meaningless, why are you doing it? Second off - I didn't ask about your replace in habits, and am not sure what this has to do with anything I've said. Clarify?

[karnos]

VOTE: Thor

[karnos]

I feel like a terrible lurker because I am not contributing much, but I'm not going to relent this time. Lynch Thor or lynch me and then lynch Thor.

This is scum!Thor.

[Thor665]

You can't read me for a hill of beans.

I support your lynch Karnos then assess Thor after flip plan though
You should self vote.

[ironstove]

Penguin, how strong is your townread on thor?

[ironstove]

Is he your top town read so far?

[PenguinPower]

For now, yes.

[bji]

Sorry it's just a personal policy of mine not to read external games. If you think that makes my play weaker, oh well. I come to this site to enjoy myself, and slogging through prior games to look for circumstantial evidence is not my idea of fun and I'm not going to do it. And if you point some cherrypicked content from another game out to me, I could only trust that evidence if I could confirm that it is not contradicted by other evidence from other games. And since like I just said I'm not doing that slogging, I simply cannot rely on anything from exterior games at all.

Says the guy basing his entire concept of my play off one game, and two votes.
When you meet someone for the first time do you think you know everything about them from one meeting, or do you discover new things on subsequent interactions? Your logic is so inherently flawed I'm not even sure why you think it sounds good.

This debate is pointless. You are just pointing out what I've already admitted - I'm not trying to play optimally if playing optimally requires doing shit that I can't stand doing. I've not had any problem playing this game well enough without having to read outside of the games I've played, and doing so has maximized my enjoyment, which is a big part of why I'm here.

I get it, you're trying to weaken other people's faith in my ability to play this game as a means for getting them to ignore my case against you. So let's just agree that we've established my play style here and they can judge me based on what's already been said. Because this line of debate must be boring the shit out of everyone (I know it's boring me).

I also do not play alts because I can't be bothered, I never play more than one game at a time, and I always replace into every other game and start from the outset on every other game. It's just the way I roll, dog.

...okay...are you trying to educate me on your meta play? First off, since you think that info from other games is meaningless, why are you doing it? Second off - I didn't ask about your replace in habits, and am not sure what this has to do with anything I've said. Clarify?

Just trying to demonstrate that I have fairly strict criteria for how I play the game, and these criteria are numerous and I take them seriously.

[Thor665]

I agree - me pointing out that you are intentionally hamstringing your ability to read people suggests either reads that shouldn't be trusted or a scum intentionally trying to defend a bad proposition.
You figured me out.
Shame you can't figure out how to call me wrong though.

Your evidence that you do strict criteria is not supported in this game and is thus meaningless, right?
I'm more than willing to believe you have strict criteria - as long as you admit it's hamstringing your ability to assess people or that it's scummily allowing you to avoid evidence that proves your stances clearly wrong.
I literally sheep all the time - I don't care what your magical read on me in this game is, it's easily proven that I do it, do it often, do it as town, and tend to just say 'sheep' when I do it.
But you don't care about that.
That makes you a liability or scum - pick one and get back to me.
Meanwhile I'll be over here, lynching you.

[Nero Cain]

I do not understand why Mal lurking is scummy but Tracer lurking is not. Is the difference to you the fact that some kind of site info indicated that Mal was playing other games but not this one, but the same source of data showed that Tracer was not playing other games? That's weak sauce if so. Did you consider that Tracer could have an alt and be playing other games constantly here while ignoring this game too? And did you really think that this is the behavior that scum would use - blatant and obviously fact-checkable lurking? Attributing the dumbest possible play to someone so that you can lynch them doesn't sound like good town strategy to me.

So I (and the others, I was far from the only one to notice that Mal was posting elsewhere) and should have gone "oh hey, Tracer

could

be playing on an alt. This is something we should consider and not lynch a lazy slot that should have been mature enough to replace out while they coast through the game

BUT

we shouldn't even consider this." PBBBT!

As an example, this game had a player that flipped scum while constantly posting elsewhere.

but its just one example!

There are more but I don't feel like slogging through my past games to find them. Its a somewhat common scumtell.

[Nero Cain]

3. None of the reasoning that karnos or GreyICE used to try to deter the wagon had any effect on your vote

nope. Grey didn't even find his own reasoning that strong noticed how he accuses Mal of using a fake V/LA. Though you are just going to attempt to write that off as some policy lynch.

5. Your only other consistent scumread, ironstove, joined the Mal wagon, but you made no comment about it

Why should I not consider he was bussing or that I was wrong?


"Waah Nero lynched town that he thought was playing like scum." That's p much how I feel about what you are doing.

[bji]

I do not understand why Mal lurking is scummy but Tracer lurking is not. Is the difference to you the fact that some kind of site info indicated that Mal was playing other games but not this one, but the same source of data showed that Tracer was not playing other games? That's weak sauce if so. Did you consider that Tracer could have an alt and be playing other games constantly here while ignoring this game too? And did you really think that this is the behavior that scum would use - blatant and obviously fact-checkable lurking? Attributing the dumbest possible play to someone so that you can lynch them doesn't sound like good town strategy to me.

So I (and the others, I was far from the only one to notice that Mal was posting elsewhere) and should have gone "oh hey, Tracer

could

be playing on an alt. This is something we should consider and not lynch a lazy slot that should have been mature enough to replace out while they coast through the game

BUT

we shouldn't even consider this." PBBBT!

As an example, this game had a player that flipped scum while constantly posting elsewhere.

but its just one example!

There are more but I don't feel like slogging through my past games to find them. Its a somewhat common scumtell.

The difference is that the others all agreed that it was policy lynch, but you explicitly called Mal scum on several occasions. That's not objectively discussing the merits of a last minute policy lynch, that's trying to push it, and is a bridge too far if you ask me.

Here's the thing. We have only a few pieces of undeniably true data in this game. A major piece of objective information is that Mal was town and was fairly quickly lynched at the end of Day 1, in what read to me as a flurry of people giving up on their prior cases and just deciding to join that wagon. Mass hysteria? I dunno, but I would be more likely to believe that at least one or two people on that wagon were scum. My two most likely candidates are you and Thor, for reasons I have already given.

[Nero Cain]

lol no one called it a policy lynch.

[bji]

Spoiler: Penguins don't like walls

lol no one called it a policy lynch.

You lie.

We are essentially voting this guy right now due to him being active on site, but not posting on the thread.

Did not use the words "policy lynch" but clearly is saying that the vote is a policy lynch.

I oppose the mal train because there is no actual reason to lynch him other than he is not playing the game.

Same thing. LmkGuy's position is clear.

I guess I'm fine with a policy lynch, because that's what this feels like rn.

Explicitly called it a policy lynch.

Oh holy shit though.

I looked at mal's recent posts. Whatever you can be town. This is fake VLA shit.

Vote: mal

Jesus. Don't claim, just die. Fucking fake VLAers. This doesn't just make you scum, it means you're garbage who abuses site rules meant to accommodate people IRL. Welcome to the hell of "I will expect you to post content at all times in all games I am a part of regardless of VLA status."

This is clearly a policy lynch vote. Clearly states that he has no belief that Mal was actually scum and just wanted him to die because he is "garbage who abuses site rules".


Literally

everyone except you

justified their vote as a policy lynch vote, either explicitly, or implicitly by saying that they weren't sure that Mal was scum but that he should die because no one should go on V/LA in one game and still participate in other games, because that's lame.

Thor came

close

with posts like:

So you are saying it's perfect to push mal and get a last minuted claim if he is a town power role? What side are you on?

The one looking to sort slots and scumhunt.
The reverse of your complaint towards me is that you are perfectly fine doing absolutely nothing to a slot that is barely here - also known as the exact reason scum lurk as a strategy. Like, if he's scum, you're giving him exactly what he wants. if he's town, you're accepting that he is playing to help scum.
I mean, if you're telling me I could just declare v/la and auto get to lylo - let me know.

He's not really saying that Mal is scum or town, though; he's making a (bogus) argument for why to lynch Mal either way. And later:

Of Malp's 11 posts - almost half (4) are just discussing his multiple v/las)
One is going "/first"
One is an RVS vote.
One is complaining RVS is over.

I mean, seriously.

This reads to me like anti-evidence for a reads-based vote of Mal, pointing out that Mal had basically no activity so we can't really infer alignment from anything he actually did. Leaving the only reason for voting him being policy.

You now look worse than Thor to me, and that's saying something.

UNVOTE: Thor
VOTE: Nero Cain

[ironstove]

Wait, why is bji getting lynched? Is it because people are scum reading the slot or because of his recent posts?

[Thor665]

I will suggest the crazy scenario of - people are scumreading him because of his recent posts (which are scummy)
I will go ahead and presume by you acting agog that you disagree.

Why don't we skip immediately to you discussing your disagreement as opposed to wasting time on setup questions, yeah?
Or do you fully agree with it and are asking for...style...?

[ironstove]

Yea, I don't think he's a good lynch, I'd rather lynch nero this game, isn't that going to put us in LYLO/MYLO?

[ironstove]

Not scum reading that player at all.

[Nero Cain]

I'd rather lynch nero this game,

lynching town is stupid.

[karnos]

It's interesting he switched from Thor (my #1 scum MVP) to Nero (my second choice for potential scum, almost tied with Saru).

Not sure if it's a case of great town minds thinking alike, or scum trying to take advantage of my reads to push a lynch into a townie instead of a scum buddy.

[Nero Cain]

Given that your case against me is "I don't agree with his reads" I'd argue that it is niether a case of town or great minds think alike.

[karnos]

Did you just claim you aren't town? LOL.

[Foxbird]

LmkGuy has failed to respond to his prod and will be force-replaced.

Searching for a replacement now.

[Foxbird]

A RANDOM BUMP APPEARED