California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[IH]

Gaspar
DaniBanani/MoS/Sarc

Kay this will be a mini pbp of GaspGlorkPodSpar.

(Glork.)

Mgm, it makes ZERO sense as a scum ability. Once the duel had happened and nobody died, what do you think would be each player's alignment?

If Cubs were scum and failed to daykill LmL, does that mean LmL is scum? That's a silly ability.... if Cubs were lynched that day (which he was), he would have outed his scumbuddy.
If Cubs were scum and had daykilled LmL as town, he'd be outed for sure (for claiming he only kills if his opponent is scum). If Cubs were scum and killed LmL as scum, it would only make sense if there were multiple scumgroups. Not ruling that out as a possiblity, but I see that as something of a ridiculous stretch to conclude this early on.

I guess I could see the case where Cubs were an SK with an extra scumkilling daykill, but that seems like a bit of a stretch as well. And I would have to question whether you honestly could have believed that that was the case.


Needless to say, my top suspects remain approximately the same.
Vote: Adele, [Mgm, Xyzzy], [other people], No Lynch, LoudmouthLee, Gaspar

Does anybody notice what I noticed? Notice LML, with Gaspar confirming him as town. I didn't really catch that vibe from this post at all.....

The response to CES's "woo, daykill!" post has been interesting. A select handful of people have pointed out that they're not particularly fond of it, but nobody's actually made a move on CES. I almost get the feeling that scums are waiting to see if anything will actually come of it.

I may investigate this if the Gork Sarc theory comes belly up.

Incidentally, Thesp, could you articulate your suspicion of Dani? A brief skim doesn't turn up very much, and I'm not seeing the "case" against him.

I will also be reviewing Thesp and any attacks against Dani/MoS

This looks bad to me.... the fact that you would come to the conclusion that Thesp is a lyncher with you as a target makes me think this is more OMGUS and less "you're scum reaching for an attack on another player."

Is there any reason you believe Thesp to be a lyncher specifically? Do you think his D1 play would indicate that such is the case?

I totally forgot about the thesp/dani interaction. I wouldn't think to much about this until Glork just totally let him off the hook with this.

Okay, well that would change the validity of your argument. I didn't know that your response was based on experience with Thesp as a lyncher. I had concluded that it was "You're going after me hard, but you're wrong so you must be scum" which would indeed have been OMGUS.

Slight connection so far.

I find it odd that LmL is more certain that IH is scum, because I feel the exact opposite. My past experiences with ThespScum are Scrubs (a bit of an anomoly given VitR was wrongly outed immediately and I got Thesp to kill himself a night later) and modding Board Games Mafia (in which I barely recall Thesp putting suspicion on his scumbuddies). I don't think that his attacks on IH are indicative of a scum pairing, and I'd like to hear LmL's take on Thesp/IH interactions and on whether he feels IH could be soloscum or part of a secondary scumgroup.

......How did LML know thesp was scum? = | this is making me want to do a full reread.

I don't like the Primate Glork disagreement anymore. It seems.... staged. = |

What I find disturbing about you, Tally, is not that you think he may have done so 'out of courtesy' of the players, but the fact that you're not even interested in seeing if he could be an SK. If you're a protown player, your job is to eliminate all threats to the town. A possible threat has emerged, and you're gunning down that possibility as a mere "distraction." That kind of attitude stirkes me as patently scummy

I dislike this as well.

fos

Gaspar why did you concentrate so hard on experimenting?

Huh, it seems that so far (Glork's post 102) that he has mainly ignored dani/sarc, other than calling them protown.

I'd be up for wagoning some fools and forcing some claims right about now. If there are three Parisian Mafiates left, we're only a single mislynch removed from LyLo, potentially. Like Pooky said, yesterday's No-Lynch was pretty terrible, and there are a lot of people who seem to be content sitting on the sidelines and watching. The more I think about it, the more it bothers me... minus points for TSS, Zindie, Sarc, and DP. Consequently, it's time for a Condorcet update:

Unvote
Vote: the silent speaker, Zindaras, DP, Talitha, Sarcastro, Foolinc, Saetel, Pooky, IH, No Lynch, Gaspar

Suspicion enters here, but Sarc is still below the other three he mentions AND talitha. Why was Talitha above Sarc here?

He also points out about Sarc's omgus attack a little bit later. For Dani you thought that was protown, but now you think it's scummy? DId you think it was scummy? Why?

Unvote
Vote: Zindaras, Talitha, DragonPhoenix, SilentLee, [foolinc, IH, Pooky, Sarcastro, Setael], No Lynch, Gaspar

Glork's 143rd post. Why is Sarc suddenly down with me, foolinc, Pooky, and Setael?

Something in Sarc's play reminds me of the way CES said "I'm going to follow your lead regarding MBL" to me in Face-To-Face Mafia. Both CES and MBL were scum. I'm not really all that convinced there's a direct parallel (mostly because I don't find Sarc's predecessors to be all that scummy), but the thought just occurred to me, and I feel like pointing it out. Even though Sarc has said he's having issues with reading people in the game, I'd like to see, before day's end, a rundown of his thoughts on each player, as best as he can give them. This applies paricularly to the folks he hasn't really mentioned so far.

...this sounds like he has a thinly veiled suspicion of Sarc, but... Sarc is still with the "relatively protown players", right?

fos

and now his last few posts.... feel like the turnaround he had right after the no lynch, and pretty soon Sarc will be forgotten.

Ugh, I'm trying to decide what it means, because he has had the same treatment with DP, except he's suspicious of him....

Bleh, I'm not sure I want a Gaspar lynch atm. The way that pooky wagon went down.... I want to lynch someone that hopped on it last minute, either Pooky, DP, or Sarc.

DP-Why did you hop on the pooky wagon?

[IH]

Well that was useless

[IH]

EBWOP:That would also explain all of the jumping around Gaspar did, and the attack on Mr. Grey.

Also the interest he took when I was talking about the reincarnation of Dantes.

Remind me about those thesp interactions later.

[Sarcastro]

I believe Gaspar's claim, despite the fact that I'm Dantés.

Because I'm pretty sure that there is more than one Dantés.

Specifically, I'm Number 34 (referring to Dantés number while he was imprisoned in the Château d'If). I'd rather keep my claim to rolename for now, but I'll reveal more later and/or if enough people ask me to.

I've been trying to decide if this explains Cubs' strange claim. I originally thought that there was an Edmund Dantés role and a Count of Monte Cristo role to go along with mine, representing the three stages of Dantés' life, but Gaspar's claim has made me wonder about that. I've also wondered if perhaps Cubs' rolename was given to him as The Count of Monte Cristo, which makes me think that perhaps on my death, I'll be shown as having the rolename of a famous prisoner from Fresno or something. Also note that I am never explicitly called either Dantés or The Count of Monte Cristo in my role PM, though it is made very clear that I am him.

[Gaspar]

Gaspar
DaniBanani/MoS/Sarc

Kay this will be a mini pbp of GaspGlorkPodSpar.

(Glork.)

Mgm, it makes ZERO sense as a scum ability. Once the duel had happened and nobody died, what do you think would be each player's alignment?

If Cubs were scum and failed to daykill LmL, does that mean LmL is scum? That's a silly ability.... if Cubs were lynched that day (which he was), he would have outed his scumbuddy.
If Cubs were scum and had daykilled LmL as town, he'd be outed for sure (for claiming he only kills if his opponent is scum). If Cubs were scum and killed LmL as scum, it would only make sense if there were multiple scumgroups. Not ruling that out as a possiblity, but I see that as something of a ridiculous stretch to conclude this early on.

I guess I could see the case where Cubs were an SK with an extra scumkilling daykill, but that seems like a bit of a stretch as well. And I would have to question whether you honestly could have believed that that was the case.


Needless to say, my top suspects remain approximately the same.
Vote: Adele, [Mgm, Xyzzy], [other people], No Lynch, LoudmouthLee, Gaspar

Does anybody notice what I noticed? Notice LML, with Gaspar confirming him as town. I didn't really catch that vibe from this post at all.....

I "confirmed" LmL as town because of exactly what I stated. Cubsfan's claim and ability made no sense as a scum ability, so he had to be telling the truth. Given that LmL didn't die, I concluded that LmL wasn't scum.

Okay, well that would change the validity of your argument. I didn't know that your response was based on experience with Thesp as a lyncher. I had concluded that it was "You're going after me hard, but you're wrong so you must be scum" which would indeed have been OMGUS.

Slight connection so far.

How?
I asked Dani how he could've been thinking "Lyncher" and he explained a connection between this and past behavior. I didn't previously know about that past behavior, but it is perfectly consistent with Dani's conclusion and why nobody else would have come to that conclusion.

I don't like the Primate Glork disagreement anymore. It seems.... staged. = |

It wasn't. We'll both tell you in postgame that we disagreed on just about everything. Fortunately, Primate pretty much let me take the lead on this one.

Gaspar why did you concentrate so hard on experimenting?

See claim.

I'd be up for wagoning some fools and forcing some claims right about now. If there are three Parisian Mafiates left, we're only a single mislynch removed from LyLo, potentially. Like Pooky said, yesterday's No-Lynch was pretty terrible, and there are a lot of people who seem to be content sitting on the sidelines and watching. The more I think about it, the more it bothers me... minus points for TSS, Zindie, Sarc, and DP. Consequently, it's time for a Condorcet update:

Unvote
Vote: the silent speaker, Zindaras, DP, Talitha, Sarcastro, Foolinc, Saetel, Pooky, IH, No Lynch, Gaspar

Suspicion enters here, but Sarc is still below the other three he mentions AND talitha. Why was Talitha above Sarc here?

Sarc moved up for his noncontribution, but given how protown I had seen MoS/Dani, I wasn't willing to jump him to the top of my list. Tally was still hellascummy (I wouldn't expect

all

of the scums to be lurking, noncontributive bastards), so the order makes perfect sense to me.

He also points out about Sarc's omgus attack a little bit later. For Dani you thought that was protown, but now you think it's scummy? DId you think it was scummy? Why?

Sarc has rubbed me the wrong way, and I'm not entirely sure why. I do think hsi attack was OMGUS, but I don't believe I stated he was scummy because of it. I could be misremembering, though.

Unvote
Vote: Zindaras, Talitha, DragonPhoenix, SilentLee, [foolinc, IH, Pooky, Sarcastro, Setael], No Lynch, Gaspar

Glork's 143rd post. Why is Sarc suddenly down with me, foolinc, Pooky, and Setael?

I'm pretty sure this had to do with altering Condorcet numbers.

Something in Sarc's play reminds me of the way CES said "I'm going to follow your lead regarding MBL" to me in Face-To-Face Mafia. Both CES and MBL were scum. I'm not really all that convinced there's a direct parallel (mostly because I don't find Sarc's predecessors to be all that scummy), but the thought just occurred to me, and I feel like pointing it out. Even though Sarc has said he's having issues with reading people in the game, I'd like to see, before day's end, a rundown of his thoughts on each player, as best as he can give them. This applies paricularly to the folks he hasn't really mentioned so far.

...this sounds like he has a thinly veiled suspicion of Sarc, but... Sarc is still with the "relatively protown players", right?

It's more like "I just made this observation, but I'm not willing to say that it's indicative of somebody being scum."

[Gaspar]

...btw, meetings for next two hours, then errands, etc. I'll be back in ~6 hours max.

[IH]

I'll be gone Wednesday and Possibly Thursday.

[Silent Lee]

I'm telling you all straight up, right now, that if somebody hits Lynch -1, I will hammer without hesitation. That's your fair warning

Then why are you convincing players to unvote, slowing down the wagon?

[Gaspar]

I'm telling you all straight up, right now, that if somebody hits Lynch -1, I will hammer without hesitation. That's your fair warning

Then why are you convincing players to unvote, slowing down the wagon?

Because if a Zindie quicklynch had gone through and somebody had vigged me or something, I would have lost. I needed to explain myself and I've been short on time as of late. Also, if Sarc was hinting information, I needed to know what kind of information -- Cop, Gunsmith, etc -- so that I could tell if he was lying scum or not.

[Silent Lee]

(TSS.)

Some very interesting developments.

OK, since Gaspar claimed and Sarc believed him, it seems clear that either neither is scum or both are. If neither is scum, then neither is the way to lynch today, obviously. In that case my top suspects are still Talitha and DP as per yesterday, even though neither Pooky nor Gaspar could possibly round out their scum group; Talitha's kneejerk OMGUS to my initial attack on her came far too late in the game for an OMGUS to be entirely innocent. Besides, ruling out myself, Gaspar and Sarc doesn't leave a whole hell of a lot of choice.

In the alternate, that Gaspar and Sarc are scum pulling a play, I go back to Gaspar's list, which I stated early on was composed (given Gaspar scum) of his scum buddies interspersed with the townies he planned to target. That list was Zindie, Sarc, and DP, as well as myself but I'm the townie he targeted first; Sarcscum's presence on the list is confirmation that this is the right track, and there is again a strong probability of DP scum, this time either-or with Zin.

There is a slight possibility that Sarc alone is scum, with or without Zin -- this would explain why he gave both names but has focused the bulk of his attention on Gaspar thus far today; but I think the likelihood of that is small enough to make Sarc and Gaspar both bad risks for today, and I like a DP lynch better than a Zin lynch. (DP over Talitha because he is pointed at as scum in both of the main-line alternates, whereas Talitha is implicated only in one.)

IH's last post sounds good to me.

[IH]

You mean post 1781? ^_^

err, anyways, if Glork is neutral, it is entirely possible that Glork is neutral and Sarc is scum. It wouldn't be to much of a stretch for Sarc to just agree with him no matter alignment actually....

[Dragon Phoenix]

Placeholder post - not sure how long we are already in day again and do nto want to get replaced. I will read through the events and posts and then come up with something better than this.

[Talitha]

Gaspar killed Dantes who was posing as Mr Grey? *scratches head*
Anyway, confusion aside, I don't buy the claim. I don't buy a neutral in this game. Gaspar hasn't been playing like someone who must only survive the game to win.
Looking back further, I am quite sure PWS got himself replaced in fairness to his team-mates. A neutral would not have felt the pressure like that.
Sarc bolts into today looking like a cop with information. "Just to let everyone know, Gaspar and Zindaras are scumbuddies" "I guarantee it", he says. Then he says he thinks he might be daykilled. He votes Zindy. This is all well and good, but then he comes back and says he's NOT a cop, but the last 24 hours of the game day clarified things. And the clarifying information that he gives, the explanation of what has given him SUCH certainty... here it is: "Gaspar's vote for Zindaras looked very much like a weak bus attempt, and Zindy is obvscum. "

Needless to say, I am very dubious of Sarc as well. Why would a townie who isn't some kind of cop bust out an early vote like that in lynch-wrong-lose? And why on earth would they try and appear like a cop? Sarc is looking like a scum who wanted to try a cop gambit but got cold feet when it became obvious the bandwagon wasn't going to go full speed ahead.

I'm not saying that Zindy is definitely town either.

It looks to me like the scum spent last night preparing their roleclaims for the inevitable mass claim. Shall we mass claim for the hell of it? It could be now or never.

He's still in the night scenes, so I assume he lives.

vote: Mr Grey

[Talitha]

I have to go.. I am not going to be around to unvote if necessary.. don't wanna risk it.
I will try again later when i can hang around

unvote: Mr Grey

[Zindaras]

So it turns out Pooky was town. Who would've guessed? Besides all the people who were actually paying attention and trying to lynch the scum, of course.

Just to let everyone know, Gaspar and Zindaras are scumbuddies. I guarantee it.

By the way, I suspect that I may be daykilled. If this happens... well, hopefully you'll figure it out.

Vote: Zindaras

Your case is impressive in its absence. As, by the way, is Setael's.

Gaspar is obviously lying through his teeth. He's just trying to sidetrack us with a neutral claim. I don't buy it, not for one minute.

Vote: Gaspar

[Setael]

I didn't have a case. i thought Sarc was soft claiming cop.

Though, actually, that Gaspar vote is pretty fishy. Do you have anything else on him besides not believing his claim?

[Gaspar]

Tally: The real Grey lives. Dantes is dead. If you want evidence that he stopped showing up in Condorcets, IH voted for Grey in Post 1415, and in Post 1431, there is a vote count in which Grey does not show up. (See the txt file associated with the 1431 VC here.)

Anyway, until I killed him, Dantes was posing as Grey but was voteable, lynchable, targetable, etc. Now that I killed Dantes and the

real

Mr. Grey is with us, he's just your typical untouchable moderator. It's all flavor to support the mechanics of my role.'


Also, this:

I don't buy a neutral in this game. Gaspar hasn't been playing like someone who must only survive the game to win.

is preposterous. In my only other game as a Survivor, McDonald's Mafia, I sought to find scum and

pegged all three scumbags on Day One of the game

. I realize that my style of playing Survivor roles doesn't fit with the norm, but I try to be as protown as possible (funny how that works) without making myself an obvious kill target.

Examples of posts I made in McD's

AFTER

I claimed (here):
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 900#539900
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 881#548881
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 574#549574
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 943#549943
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 178#563178
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 348#567348

I have never been a low-profile player, and changing that as a Survivor would almost certainly bring

more

attention to me, Tally. I realize full well that my play does not congeal to the "typical" Survivor role. But I am far from your typical mafia player.


Also, if I were scum, I'd have had to be preparing my roleclaim since I first made the decision to go after Grey, not "last night." And I would have had to know that the scumgroup could have killed Grey. And I would have had to convince the scumgroup that Grey was worth nightkilling as an NPC. Your theory that I'm scum relies on so many variables that just don't make sense, it's a wonder you believe it could hold any water whatsoever. I won't deny that, if the Parisian Mafia consists of who we would guess, they'd have an interest in seeing Dantes dead... but especially after LmL showed up as the SK, Grey/Dantes did not appear to pose any realistic threat, and choosing to kill him rather than an active threat (i.e., VitaminR) is a ridiculous insinuation.

By the way, I should also point out that in my first post after Grey was killed, I started it with "Well. Now that that's over with..." as a weak hint-drop that Grey was no more and that I could focus on not getting lynched or nightkilled.

Finally, regarding PWS -- there is zero evidence to back up your stance. It is just as likely that, if PWS kept making "Hi, I'm here and not following the thread" posts, he would have just picked up a lot of attention that he would not have been able to fend off. And then he'd have gotten lynched and then he'd have lost. I'd really like to know exactly where you got this "loyalty to scumbuddies" sentiment.

[Dragon Phoenix]

OK, events of the day so far - I tend to believe Gaspar.

DP-Why did you hop on the pooky wagon?

A rhetorical question I assume, since I posted my reasons? He was in my top 3 scum candidates and the last thing I wanted was another stupid no-lynch.

Off to a further analysis.

[Gaspar]

Oh, I forgot about Shrek Mafia (where I replaced into the game as a Survivor Mason). Same deal there, except I only claimed Mason. I still behaved as distinctly protown as possible, for obvious reasons. I was still just as vocal as anybody else. I'm too lazy/busy to go find another set of quotes, so you can hunt them down yourself if you feel it is necessary.

[Sarcastro]

Talitha, are you suggesting that I intentionally soft-claimed cop in such a way that if people did not immediately start voting for Gaspar/Zindy, I would be able to deny that I was doing so? Because if I were fakeclaiming cop, I would probably just say "Hi, I'm a cop with guilties on Gaspar and Zindaras". Speaking of which, wouldn't it be a little stupid to claim cop with two guilties? Most cops probably would have come forward after one, especially while there was still a claimed doctor alive. I'm not an idiot, and I would notice something like that if I were claiming cop.

Note also that I have a tendency to make statements of exaggerated certainty. I haven't done it much in this game, because I haven't been very confident in my play, but I can give you plenty of examples of my doing it in the past.

Zindaras, why haven't you claimed yet? Seriously, claim now.

[Silent Lee]

Speaking of which, wouldn't it be a little stupid to claim cop with two guilties? Most cops probably would have come forward after one,

I've done it. And I was a sane cop in that game, too. (Jeepfest mafia, if memory serves. That or Mafiascum mafia, whichever one I was Internet Stranger in.)

-- TSS

[IH]

Ok, I want to lynch Zindie after his last post.

Seriously. I will be happy with him dead.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Stangely enough, given the fact that he has scored very low on my scumdar all game, so do I. Talitha is also moving up rapidly in scumminess today. I suggest we all prepare our new condorcet, but do not vote yet.

[Gaspar]

So I just found out earlier today that I'm likely going to be in Indianapolis Fri-Sun, possibly without the use of a computer. This is an obligatory post for the usual obligatory reasons.


Needless to say, I'm okay with lynching Zindie. Now granted, I'm okay with lynching anybody who isn't me, but I honestly do believe he is scum.

[Talitha]

Gaspar - If you had checked Cubs when he was still alive, do you think that would have also done the job of "killing Dantes"? Why has no Dantes body shown up? Why did your role want to kill Dantes. What's the flavour? Were you the only one who could kill Dantes? Does any of this explain why Cubs showed up as someone else on death? After checking your links, and going back over your Grey fascination that did end abruptly, I am almost starting to believe you

Sarc - The thing is, in a theme game you can't claim cop unless you have an appropriate character claim to go along with it. That is a possible reason for a soft-claim. If people doubted you, you could back down rather than have to claim a character. If you're town it seemed a very odd move. Maybe I am just unfamiliar with your playstyle though.

I am horribly out of my depth in this game. Never before in my mafia career have I had so little time to spare, and this game is much longer (page-wise) than any other I've been in. My complete cluelessness should be evidence enough that I am town

DP - What

exactly

have I done today to so rapidly move up in scumminess?

Gaspar - Who are the scum here, in your neutral opinion?