Mini 532: Yaw's Split Open Mafia: (Game over)

[Phate]

Being drunk is a scumtell.
Being a piper is a scumtell.
Speaking in iambic pentameter is a HUUUGE sucmtell (obvobv)

I think we all know what this means, folks.

Vote: Thanatos

for trying futilely to add meaning to an obviously meaningless world.

[Phate]

*blinks, points at kabenon*

YOUU?

Oh, hey, lucky for you I'm changing my sig sometime this weekend (and when I say weekend, keep in mind that I'm Italian. So that means that today is Friday, and then there are four Saturdays in a row, and then there's a Sunday, and then there's a Thursday).

[Phate]

Ok, I admit it. I'm a dayvig, and the first person to point a bazooka at me dies.

[Phate]

I hate to burst his bubble, but he's not.
His claim to speak pentameter is rot.
His syllables are wrong, so is his stress
But I agree, Than, don't give him a rest

Iambic pentameter is like this
Accent on ev'ry other syll'ble, bitch
Stress goes like so: da-DUM repeated five
And now you know that I have no damn life

[Phate]

You're completely correct, Than. Hence "his syllables are wrong" and "da-DUM repeated five."

[Phate]

btw, Thanatos, I'm keeping my vote on you until you post in triolets.

[Phate]

If they told you I’m mad, then they lied.
I’m odd, but it isn’t compulsive.
I’m the triolet, bursting with pride;
If they told you I’m mad, then they lied.
No, it isn’t obsessive. Now hide
All the spoons or I might get convulsive.
If they told you I’m mad then they lied.
I’m odd, but it isn’t compulsive.

That, my friends, is a triolet. Now: on to more trivial matters.

Massclaim = bad.

Scum need not lie about anything. They could claim their real role and do townie things with their night action. More than likely (statistically speaking), at least one of the scum is unpowered, and they could be the one to send in the kill. If I were powerrole scum, I'd be perfectly happy with doing whatever the town wanted me to do w/my power and being a great townie all day, while picking off their power roles night by night.

[Phate]

Because of his "goon" status, I'm willing to let Zhao off the hook for suggesting that a newb suggesting a massclaim is scummy. Even though he's wrong.

And more importantly, I have not heard a single triolet from Thanatos.

[Phate]

SensFan - no, they wouldn't. Mafia could be perfectly honest about their roles. Why would they have to lie?

And yes, based on what I've seen so far, I'd call this suggestion and insistence that Mafia must lie a newb mistake and hypothesise that if you have played before, it was on a low-quality site or in RL, and RL Mafia is very different from PbP Mafia.

[Phate]

....are you suggesting that not a single mafia will be unpowered?

Ok, either you're more noobish than I thought or you're scum. I'm not sure which, but I'll give you a

FoS: SensFan

If you're still acting like this by the time Thanatos has posted a triolet, that will be upgraded to a vote.

[Phate]

Thanatos gets major props and an

unvote

.

SensFan gets an

unFoS

for not being an idiot anymore.

[Phate]

Korlash, are you moderately inebriated, or do you always talk like this?

[Phate]

(Pssst... Phate! Who is your scum mate? Quick man, your making me look bad!)

Holy caught me. It's SensFan. Or maybe it's Holy trying to distance from me. Or maybe that's what SensFan WANTS me to think. Or maybe... 0.0

[Phate]

Scumgroup is Holy-Korlash-Phate-SensFan, OBVOBV.

[Phate]

Ok, on a more serious note: I think that at least one unpowered role should claim right now.

Then, if we lynch someone with a role, on N1 the role-reopener can reopen it and the role-switcher can switch the roles of the dead person and the unpowered.

And if we continue that way, eventually everyone will have a relevant role. It'll be literally a town full of powerroles. My money's on the town with that setup.

[Phate]

The role switcher should give a power formerly belonging to a dead person to someone without a power. Any power is better than none.

So if you're unpowered, Korlash, tell us now.

But only ONE unpowered need claim D1. Any more and the scum have a better shot at hitting a power-role.

Also, I think we should agree on a list of the most valuable roles, from least to greatest, so as to work toward the most potent distribution of roles. I'd set them like so:

Role-Switcher (the one who's able to set this all up)
Role-Reopener (without the reopener, the role-switcher's kind of useless)
Cop
Doc
Roleblocker (incidentally, since we're going to have so many night actions, the blocker shouldn't block anyone unless they're sure the person they're blocking is scum. *bad thought* Gah, I hope the scum don't have the RB, that'd fuck this whole plan to hell.)
Night Communicators


Discuss.

[Phate]

EBWOP: My list was from best to worst, not from least to greatest.

[Phate]

@Korlash, SensFan, etc - Who cares? There's no vig here, and I don't give a fuck about theory that doesn't apply here.

@Than - yep. Completely right. But the scum are still at a big disadvantage: at least one of them

needs

to be unpowered, or their night action is useless, cuz they have to send in a nightkill. Whereas we'll have full use of all of our roles.

[Phate]

Korlash - true, I hadn't thought of that. Still doesn't make the theory stupid, only slightly less strong than I had thought. As for being "uppity," I'll be uppity with whoever I like. And speaking of which, with a name like "Korlash," why aren't you signed up for the MS MTG tourney? And what's your native language?

Thanatos - The most valuable thing the town has in its favour is the powerroles. Powerroles are better for town than they are for scum. Personally, I'd rather have everyone be a powerrole than have everyone's roles be uncertain. I think a game in which all players are powerroles is good for town, especially because most of the powerroles don't benefit scum, but they do benefit town. I mean, look at the alternative: our powerroles are just lost forever? I mean barring the rolemanipulators, our most powerful roles are cop and doc. Neither do the scum ANY good. I'd rather risk sticking a scum with a role that's useless to him (while having a greater than 50% chance of hitting a townie, in which case the role will be extremely valuable) than leave it on a dead player.

In short, if we switch, we have
>50% good for town
<50% neutral for town

And if we don't, we have
100% neutral for town


Also, I'm definitely not suggesting that the role reopener or switcher claim. ABSOLUTELY NOT. The only people that need claim for this plan to work are exactly one unpowered townie per day (except on days following nights when no powerroles were lynched, shot, or SK'd.

Speaking of which, this whole deal is even sweeter when you consider the SK. The SK is incapable of using any role, period (unless he doesn't want to kill, but I don't find that particularly likely). So any power tacked onto him is completely useless, and therefore neutral for town.

[Phate]

... There is a MS MTG Tourney? First time I ever heard of that...

Check the MishMash forum.

and my native language is slang, followed by broken English, mixed with some Japanese at times, and ending in a lovely French accent with a small hint of Native dialect...

Interesting.

And yet again I find Phate speaking nonsense...

The SK is incapable of using any role, period (unless he doesn't want to kill, but I don't find that particularly likely).

I will kindly point you towards...

SK may do both.

Moving on...

Oh. There is that.

Yeah, that portion kind of wipes out, I guess.

This plan of yours really does not begin until tomorrow... So... Yeah... What does your plan include for today if I may ask?

It will consist entirely of

Day 1
A.) One vanilla claiming (check)
B.) When the end of the day approaches, I'll remind the role reopener to target the dead person if the dead person had a power.
C.) When the end of the day approaches, I'll remind the role switcher to target the vanilla and the dead person if the dead person had a power.

Night 1
Role manipulators do their thing.

Day 2
We open exactly the same as before only with more information from D1 discussion, a mafia kill, a SK kill, and the lynchee's power from D1 grafted onto a vanilla (if the lynchee had a power).

Then, we look at the powers of those killed overnight, and discuss what the best powers are, and agree which we should reopen and switch. If the vanilla from D1 (Korlash, in this instance) is now powered, another vanilla claims.

Night 2
Role manipulators do their thing.

And we repeat until someone kills the roleswitcher or the rolereopener.

What we're basically doing is making sure that everytime they kill a town powerrole, we resurrect it. Someone, Than, I think, mentioned that we're giving them too much info, I disagree. Because the people we're giving powers will have been vanilla before, so we don't lose anything. They'll either have to waste kills killing the same role again, or strike out randomly trying to get one of the role manipulators.

Basically what the probabilities comes down to is this:

it's very unlikely to hurt us

(the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is if we resurrect the roleblocker... hm. I actually think it might be to our benefit not to ressurect that role for that reason),

but it's very likely

(barring some weird townie-scum-SK endgame, every time we do it we have a greater than fifty percent chance of changing a vanilla townie to a powerrole townie)

to help us.

[Phate]

Korlash - yes, they may very well shoot the former vanillas. But if they do, what have we lost? Absolutely nothing! The scum are fighting an uphill battle, and if they choose to fight that battle by spending their lynches on our (former) vanillas, then so much the better for the existing powerroles!

When there're no unpowered left, if there's a good role on a dead person, we move on to grafting it onto the night communicators. Ideally by then the town would be Switcher-Opener-Cop-Doc-RB. When we hit 3 people, for example, if it's Switcher-Opener-Doc, then the Doc should claim so we can turn him into a cop.

Of course, it will never get that far because eventually one of the role manipulators will die, but look at it this way: we have the equivalent of a doctor that works on roles. So if they do shoot the former vanilla, that means we're forcing them to hit the vanillas. How much easier do you think this game would be if scum were forced to kill all the vanillas first?

[Phate]

FoS: everyone who doesn't agree with me.

But seriously: because role reopeners are incapable of doing that on their own. It must be in tandem with a role-switcher, who moves the role onto a vanilla townie. And it's necessary for the vanilla townie to claim so the roleswitcher doesn't accidentally move it onto someone with a better power. Imagine if the role-switcher accidentally switched a dead power with the reopener, for example.

I'm not suggesting anyone claim.
I'm not suggesting that all of our protown actions be in the open.

If the recipient is NK'd, that's

GREAT!

It means the scum aren't targeting the role manipulators or any of the other power roles. If the scum kill the recipient every night, that means they're killing all of our vanillas first. Scum killing all the vanillas first = GOOD FOR TOWN.

How does this plan help scum?

Once you've answered that, how does it help scum more than it helps town?


Ok, for the last page, barring one tiny post from SensFan who quietly agreed with me and didn't say why, this has been entirely me against Korlash and Thanatos, who apparently don't read my posts, because they bring up objections that I've just responded to in my last posts.

Does anyone else have an opinion?

[Phate]

kabenon, I have never, ever, everevereverever suggested that we out the switcher or the reopener.

You're not allowed to have an opinion until you go back and read the last page.

That's a good boy.

Vote: Thanatos

This

vote will stay until you either stop insisting that the plan could help scum or explain why. Since there's no reason (that I can see) that this would do anything except hurt scum, trying to convince others that it would help scum without explaining why strikes me as scummy.

[Phate]

Korlash, I'm pretty sure I never said the words "keep our roles alive," but... we've been through this. We at least agree that the plan should be implemented, even if you don't appreciate the genius of it. =P So that's the important thing.

Piper, that's definitely not iambic pentameter; those are couplets.

[Phate]

That gives me an idea.. an awful idea... a terrible idea.... an EVIL idea..... an idea so brilliant that my head would explode if I even

began

to know what I was talking about.

Mafia based on post restrictions, where everyone has to post in a certain type of poem.

[Phate]

Mafia and SK are allowed one kill per "group"

What do you mean by "Night communicators?"

I don't often bother with FoSes except in situations where they're unavoidable (I find someone suspicious but there's already a bandwagon on them and I don't want a lynch yet, I'm already voting someone that I find more suspicious, etc). Why bother with a FoS when I can just vote?

First you say it's better for scum than town. I ask how, and you ignore me. Then you mention that it could be good for scum if something goes wrong. I vote you, because it seems to me that continually repeating a statement you have no basis for is scummy, especially since that statement is aimed at my plan, which will help town.

This is the entire trade.

Scum gets: confirmed identity of one vanilla per day, chance to claim vanilla in order to get a (new) power.

Town gets: a powerrole on a vanilla every night until one of the role manipulators die. Depending on who the scum target, this functions as either protection for the existing powerroles or a recycling of powerroles.

Fixed a tag

[Phate]

Oh, I hadn't even figured the Doc into the equation. When you throw in the doc, that makes the plan even better. I wouldn't presume to tell the doc who to protect, because 1) I don't think we can count on both rolemanipulators AND the doc being protown, and more importantly 2) telling the doc who to protect more or less guarantees scum won't attack them, wasting the night for the doc.

But doc, I don't think it's too hard to figure out a good plan of action.

[Phate]

If the reopener isn't scum...

Why are you singling out the reopener? It won't work if the switcher is scum, either.

The doc is not necessary. He just sweetens the pot.

We can talk about what the cop should do on D2, after he's had an investigation.

[Phate]

You came around about the time other players started saying that it was a good idea. That means you blow with the wind; doesn't prove anything for the Thantown case.

Having a bad feeling isn't wrong. Making an assertion multiple times without supporting it is, especially when the assertion is against a protown plan.

That's the biggest lead I have at this time. If I see someone do something scummier, I'll remove my vote.

[Phate]

EBWOP, as I began posting before your last one:

You're a retard. It's much better odds for scum to randomly strike out or make an educated guess on the powerroles than it is to make a plan that almost forces them to lynch vanilla every night.

And this is incredibly pretentious, but yes, disagreeing with my plan is scummy until you can come up with a better argument than that.

[Phate]

Not even close. I've explained what you've done that's scummy.

You came around about the time other players started saying that it was a good idea. That means you blow with the wind; doesn't prove anything for the Thantown case.

Having a bad feeling isn't wrong. Making an assertion multiple times without supporting it is, especially when the assertion is against a protown plan.

That's not locking on, that's scumhunting. What I want to know is "why are you so nervous with only two votes on you?" And also "why are you only targeting me and not the other dude?"

[Phate]

Ok. Let's agree to disagree. There, all done. Doesn't change anything. Did you mean "agree to diagree and then unvote me," or are you good?

Let's get a list of your behaviour.

Saying that my plan was scummy w/out backing it up the second time = scummy
Saying that my plan was scummy w/out backing it up the first time = mildly scummy
Coming around about the time other players said it was a good idea = mildly scummy
Having a bad feeling about my plan = neutral
Coming up with NON-BS reasons after pressure was placed on you = somewhat protown
Pointing out actual flaws in my plan = protown

All in all, I don't find you terribly scummy. I've actually got my eye over on kabenon, who, as Korlash pointed out, is being noncommital.

But votes aren't just about who to lynch, they're also about pressure. And considering the extraordinary amount of stress that L-5 is putting you at, I'm interested enough to keep my vote here until someone else does something a bit scummier.

[Phate]

EBWOP: Oh, geez, Kabenon, way to prove me wrong on being noncommittal while I'm posting that you are.

[Phate]

Oh, and note: My plan doesn't have "flaws." My plan has a "tradeoff" that is "beneficial" for "town."

[Phate]

Oh, and another thing: I'm not putting any heat on Thanatos, actually. All his posts for the last page or so have been trying to get me to unvote him, and (more-or-less) all mine have been reactions to his.

[Phate]

More importantly, he still isn't posting in iambic pentameter. TEN SYLLABLES PER LINE!

But seriously, I don't think DP is scum.

[Phate]

There once was a marvelous plan
Phate saw it, and with it he ran
It's been detracted by some
How many desp'rate scum
And how many're just stupid? Damn.

[Phate]

Ok, I'm being at least mildly facetious here. Obviously, my plan has flaws. Everything has flaws. But I

do

think it's a good plan, and I also think that disagreeing with a plan that hurts scum can be scummy, especially if you don't provide reasons or you echo other people's reasons.

[Phate]

also, someone mentioned that we should use my plan as a backup plan and stick to scumhunting. I say do both. They're not mutually exclusive. I fully intend for the lynchee at the end of the day that we start the plan with to be scum.

[Phate]

This plan has waaaaay too many holes to ever work. Many of which have been pointed out. The main problem I see is that the role switcher would need to know who the reopener is in order to switch the roles, wouldn't they? In my experience, a role reopener is only allowed to use their role once in the game. They then take on that role as their own for the rest of the game. If this is the case, then there would be no point in this plan because a)only one role would be opened and b) there's no need to switch it because someone will already have the role for the remainder of the game.

This paragraph exhibits a lack of knowledge about the roles. Reopeners are not one-shot resurrectors that take the role they open. They make a role on a targeted dead person eligible for role-switching. Furthermore, the switcher and the reopener are perfectly capable of working in tandem without knowing each other identities. Go back and read the first page, where the roles are explained, and then reread pages 4 & 5, where I explain my plan.

[Phate]

that's not a problem as long as everyone makes a smart decision with their night actions. If pressed, I'll explain why, but you should take my word for it.

Mod: a few questions on the role-switcher's power.
If a player uses a night action and the role-switcher targets that player on the same night, does the player perform their original action or the new one they're granted?
When the roleswitcher switches two players' roles, is he made aware of what the roles are?

Original
No

[Phate]

Reserving opinion.

I'm going to be lurking for awhile, because AT&T is a bitch and she has taken away our phones and our DSL. I'll be able to check in periodically (limited access on weekdays), but until we get this fixed, I'll be posting drastically less.

[Phate]

If that's the case, then there's no point in discussing any plan at all. Who is to say that the switcher will participate? Or the reopener? Or the cop? To say that you don't want a valid role like the roleblocker in the game is, to borrow a phrase, quite simply moronic. A roleblocker can be a defacto doc/cop if his aim is true. I've seen a mafia player outed simply by the roleblocker choosing him the night he was to make the kill. The doc was already dead and voila- scum on a platter.

Firstly, simma' down nah' on the condenscension. That's my job. And besides, the people you're talking to are all (or mostly all) fully aware of the scope of the RB's power. The difference here is that the RB would be much more beneficial to scum while implementing this plan than it would be for town. Hence, if the RB dies, we should keep his power dead.

[Phate]

I'm still not sold on Zhao's case right now. Personally, I think OTM is scummier. He agrees a lot without giving many reasons of his own, which always spooks me because it makes me think people are trying to buddy up to me.

[Phate]

Zhao, your entire post can be invalidated by the following word:


Playstyle.

If you weren't a newbie, I'd find it scummy, but you are, so I don't.

Unvote: Thanatos, Vote: OffTheMark

[Phate]

Bah. I thought those were apparent to everyone else. Ok, reasons forthcoming:

Playstyle: I'm irritatingly arrogant, and right almost enough to justify that. I tend not to repeat myself; if someone has asked for an explanation of something I've already explained I prefer to ignore them. When I find their posts illegible, logically flawed, or otherwise moronic, I find personally insulting my fellow scummers to be acceptable both as a valuable gauging tool and for my own perverse satisfaction. When I do explain myself, I'm highly logical and prone towards massive analyses when I have the time or am highly interested in the game. Endgames are exciting to me. Anything where I get a chance to rule things out definitely a la logic puzzles are exciting to me. When the game interests me, I'm likely to play town leader; otherwise, I'm likely to watch from the shadows, posting once a day or so with my general thoughts on the situation. I don't mind helping newbies, as long as they're quick to learn. Because it's hard for me to get a read on them, I'm reluctant to lynch a newbie. I tend to defend myself extremely vigorously.

Is it to be expected that scum would push a pro-town plan at the end of day 1 or day 2 instead? This is my first normal game so you have to enlighten me. Besides, I don’t see why scum can’t think outside of the box.

In my experience, scum never propose strong plans or weak plans, and very rarely do they propose medium plans. Scum generally play reactively. Of course, there are exceptions that prove the rule, so you shouldn't automatically clear anyone based on the fact that they've proposed a plan.

I feel it’s dangerous to label someone townie based on an assumption. Just because something is unlikely to happen, doesn’t mean it won’t. What if Phate was scum and he knew either the reopener or switcher were scum. The vanilla townie doesn’t get a power role so his plan fails. Phate would blame it on one of the many possible factors, shrug and say oh well, at least we tried. Meanwhile since he pushed a pro-town move, he’s viewed as townie and can coast through the rest of the game.

The obvious solution here is to not label me as confirmed town just because I proposed the plan. Of course, by the same token, my proposing the plan shouldn't be seen as scummy, either, with the only evidence being that if I were scum I'd know how to mess the plan up.

I am resistant to criticism. I'm not terribly cooperative, either. That's not a scumtell, that's my playstyle.

I think that's all of Zhao's pseudo-accusations.


Reasons for voting OTM:

I've been mentioning for some time now that I think he's been scummy, and why. Go read me in isolation and you'll find that. Post 273 only confirms his scumminess to me. I won't defend anyone else (not because I think any of his cases are anywhere at all close to valid - I don't - but because I'm interested in seeing those accused defend themselves), but automatically putting me at the top of his trusted list because I proposed the switching plan is not only bullshit but it feels like surreptious buddying up.

[Phate]

[quote="OffTheMark]Do you like pissing everyone else off or what?
Do you like pissing everyone else off or what? [/quote]

Yes.

I have already adequately explained my reasons.

[Phate]

I've been mentioning for some time now that I think he's been scummy, and why. Go read me in isolation and you'll find that. Post 273 only confirms his scumminess to me. I won't defend anyone else (not because I think any of his cases are anywhere at all close to valid - I don't - but because I'm interested in seeing those accused defend themselves), but automatically putting me at the top of his trusted list because I proposed the switching plan is not only bullshit but it feels like surreptious buddying up.

[Phate]

Even if I'm at the bottom of the trusted list, I still find your reasoning to be bullshit.

OK, even if you disagree with Phate's plan, at least he is trying to propose something to help the town in a game with a rather unusual setup. I doubt scum is going to be bold enough to put forth a plan like this so early in the game, therefore

I immediately put Phate in the "trusted" category

. Zhao seems to equate bad plan with scum, which seems disingenuous to me, and not a true townie-thought-process, so

I became suspicious when Zhao said Phate was suspicious

.

Thought process:
1. Phate has proposed a plan.
2. Regardless of the quality of the plan, this immediately makes Phate trustworthy.
3. Zhao thinks the plan is bad, and that Phate could be scum.
4. Zhao is added to the suspicious list.

That logic is incredibly bad, and it's one of the major reasons I see for the OTMscum case.

[Phate]

I enjoy it when people agree with me. It irks me when people agree with me without providing their own reasons. Thanatos says reasons are forthcoming, and I am granting him the benefit of the doubt. In addition, I believe (but am not certain) that he has mentioned reasons for his opinion of your scumminess in the past. Therefore, I need to read him in isolation again.

[Phate]

Then why this?

Sure, scum could come up with a bad plan that would benefit scum more than town, but that is SO risky

Implication is that good plan means protown means town, and bad plan means too risky to be scum means town. Complete WIFOM.

[Phate]

That's one of the hardest things for me when I play this game, is how much I choose to communicate, and what I choose to share.

Indeed. That's why I am not mentioning some of the other reasons I have for voting you; they have to do with your attacks on other people that I find faulty. I choose not to share my perceptions those attacks at least until and unless those you've attacked defend themselves, however.

Thinking I'm probably a townie isn't scummy.
Saying I'm probably a townie usually isn't scummy.
Saying I'm on your trusted list - and validating that decision with faulty logic - is scummy.

If I said that Zhao was undeniably a townie because of post 272, where he asks you to link to your previous game with Panzer, that would be scummy, for several reasons.

The logic is bullshit.
Assuming someone's alignment based on flawed logic is scummy.
If that makes me scummy, the scumminess leaks over to Zhao, the guy I'm blatantly buddying up to.

I don't want to give scum a free chance to link themselves to me in anyone's mind.

[Phate]

QuickBen, I agree with you completely.

Thanatos, you say that my planning and "stubberness" is detrimental, without explaining why, and I can more-or-less handle that. And you say I'm hunting scum, which I'm glad you realise.

But how do you go straight from, "Well, Phate's too stubborn but he is hunting scum, and OTM has commited this entire list of scumtells over here, so surely at least one of them must be scum."

You'd cooled down on my suspicion list a bit, but if we lynch OTM today, I'll be voting for you D2.

[Phate]

OTM clinging to me makes me scummy?

My pointing that out and pointing out all of his scumminess means I'm distancing?

My working on the OTM lynch fits me into a scum role?

My working on the OTM lynch makes me think I'm off the hook?

Even when you suffix an odd "not saying this is true," those are some incredibly flawed assumptions.



Now you know what I find more likely? I find it more likely that you've been relatively quiet throughout the whole case, and now you're popping up and saying, yeah, OTM is scummy, but what about Phate? I think it's more likely that you're defending your partner than that I'm distancing.

[Phate]

SensFan, you're newer than Thanatos and you're still in the Goon stage. If you can figure it out, so can he.

[Phate]

*blinks at kabenon*

[Phate]

Lay off the painkillers, dude.

Are you just spamming or are you genuinely trying to push OTM's lynch with that or are you making fun of Panzer or what?

[Phate]

Even

you? What do you mean by that?

[Phate]

You mean irrelevant, not irreverent. Irrelevant means "not pertaining to any specific topic", while irreverent means "disrespectful".

Judging by the one game I've played with Panzer before (he was town, I was scum, we NK'd him N1), that's just his playstyle.

[Phate]

How could you be so sure? Even I can't really tell whether OTM is townie or scum.

Korlash, I think it's mildly hypocritical for YOU to get on MY back about worthless emote posts.

pwn't

And kabenon posted the following:

OMG confirmed scum! Lynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynchlynch

*blinks at blinker*
You crackin' wise, hopscotch?

I don't think it's unreasonable to wtf him. (Yes, wtf is now a verb.)

I'm still on OTM because I still think he's scummy. My main reason (he blows like the wind) has not been adequately answered, and indeed, he's still blowing like the wind. First Than, then SensFan.

Fixed a tag.

[Phate]

Korlash, I'm currently playing in nine mafia games (was ten, but one just finished), three chess games (was four, but one just finished), and a mishmash game.
I'm the administrator of my own forum-based roleplaying board.
I'm a moderator on another roleplaying board.
I'm a competetive tournament M:tG player, working on getting my next judge level.
I'm maintaining a 4.2 at school.
I'm studying for my finals next week.
I'm learning C++ and messing around with Java applets.

And yet I still have never flaked or needed replacement for any reason. This game is probably the closest I have ever come to lurking in my life.
Have you considered the possibility that I'm just

busy?

Honestly, I think the OTMlynch will happen even if I don't push it. Every post he makes looks scummier than the last.

As soon as I started applying pressure, he voted Than. Shortly after, he voted SensFan. He's still blowing like the wind.

How do you make the immensely hypocritical assumption that it's not ok for me to lag behind in posting (

WHILE STILL POSTING MUCH MORE THAN SENS, MIGHT I ADD

) but it's perfectly fine for SensFan to post content-free or not at all?

I already made my case against OTM. I was the first one onto his wagon. He has not adequately responded to my points. If you like, I'll go make it again.

[Phate]

Here it is again.

1. OTM agrees a lot, without giving reasons of his own.

2. OTM's vote seems to shift based on popular opinion.

3. His cases on other people are really rather ridiculous. I'd rather not, but if you want me to, I'll expound on this.

4. He's putting me on top of his trusted list without giving an adequate reason, which just looks like buddying up.

5. He moved kabenon straight from suspected to trusted, and still hasn't adequately explained why, in my opinion.

6. As soon as he came under pressure, he started trying to deflect attention to multiple other people in rapid succession.

7. I've made all these accusations before, and he hasn't responded adequately enough to convince me that these aren't justified.


Am I sure he's scum? No. But he's the scummiest in the game right now, and I'd support his lynch.

[Phate]

I still find OTM scummier than QuickBen, although Zhao's post makes my bus alert tingle.

[Phate]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find Korlash more and more scummy as time goes on? He hasn't connected himself with anyone really, but he's throwing out suspicions of everyone left and right, he's purposefully oblivious to the fact that newbies play differently than more experienced players (and thus what's scummy for a newbie is different than what's scummy for an experienced player), and his logic sucks, as is evidenced in the last post.

If I had a gun to my head, I'd say "what the fuck? Why are you holding a gun to my head?" But if someone wanted my to guess Korlash's alignment, I'd say he was the SK.

[Phate]

Sorry, newbie card only applies in newbie games. Last time I checked this is not the Road to Rome thread. I will not be dumb enough to let someone "Less experienced" then the others get away with stupid stuff because "They are new and too dumb to go play a newbie game."

And no. scummy = scummy. Um, some scummy things can be chalked up to newbie mistakes over in the newbie games, yes. But anything at all suspicious needs to be prodded, poked, and photoshopped into discussion.

We're not here to lynch scummy players, where "scummy" means "your opinion of the way experienced players act when they're scum." We're here to lynch scum. Different people act in different ways when they're scum. Primarily forum players tend to act more logical as scum and more emotional as town. Primarily chat or IRC players tend to reverse that. More experienced players tend to make more gambits and act more confidently as scum. Unfortunately, they tend to do this as town, too. New players, as scum, tend to have a strong sense of "I want to live!" make simple mistakes, or go too far trying to avoid them and end up looking suspicious anyway. Unfortunately, they tend to do that as town, too. Furthermore, what's a mistake or a slip or a scumtell for an experienced player is often a nulltell for a newbie, and vice-versa.

And it doesn't stop there. Some players break the mold completely, and each player has their own quirks. Compare your own style with Jdodge's or Quag's, or Adel's or Adele's, or BBM's or BM's , or MoS's or SSF's. None of these players are particularly new, and they're all experienced with forum play. And yet their playstyles differ vastly.

A good scumhunter doesn't live by the Jeeptells, or make their own definition of what's always scummy no matter what and follow it to the letter. A good scumhunter recognises first the things that usually mean scum, and as he gets better at it, makes his definitions more specific. He might note a very telling scumtell that only applies to newer players, for example. Or a phrase, that, when uttered by a player who plays primarily in chat games, almost invariably means they're town. And his definition of scummy becomes more diverse.

And it goes deeper than that, too. A good scumhunter draws on prior experience with any given player. If a person's playstyle changes dramatically it usually (of course, there are always exceptions) means they know something they didn't last game. This is called the "meta", short for "metagame". It literally means "after the game".

Saying "scummy=scummy" is not good scumhunting.

So in other words I am operating under the assumption I do not know anyone else's roles. And I'm scum hunting... ok... So your calling me town then? Thanks!

Korlash, have you heard of spaghetti-slinging? That's where you accuse a lot of people of a lot of different things and generally portray yourself as a town-leading crusader, hoping one of the suspicions sticks in the mind of the rest of the town. That way, no matter who they decide to go with, you can say "I suspected them all along!" It's a tactic characterised by lots of FoSing and vote hopping, or sometimes simply by having a new main suspect every page. This is what I'm accusing you of. It's not a protown tell.

Contradicting to your earlier "What are the chances we even have 3 unpowered town" statement. By claiming it is unlikely to have 3 unpowered town, you are logically saying it is more likely we have 3 unpowered scum. you cannot have it both ways.

Also, thanks to the laws of probability, you are most likely right. But be prepared for the worst, all powered scum. The phrase "We do have at least one" instead of "It is most likely there is at least one" leads me to believe you have first hand knowledge of the scum's roles. Thus, your scum yourself.

You wanted an example? This is Krap Logick(tm).

[Phate]

40-card decks are better than 60-card decks. More consistency.

[Phate]

What exactly did I dodge, Korlash? I made some accusations, you defended. If I like, I can leave the matter right there. Not a dodge at all, because there was nothing to dodge.

Although, to tell the truth, I don't think your defense was good enough, and I'll renew the attack sometime when I'm not half-asleep.

[Phate]

Actually, what I meant was:

What exactly did I dodge, Korlash? I made some accusations, you defended. If I like, I can leave the matter right there. Not a dodge at all, because there was nothing to dodge.

Although, to tell the truth, I don't think your defense was good enough, and I'll renew the attack sometime when I'm not half-asleep.

[Phate]

You still haven’t explained this statement.

It's a comment that I don't think a player is as scummy as another despite that your post brushes lightly across my bus radar.

[Phate]

Apologies for absence. Read sig for details.

[Phate]

I disagree. I don't have as much of a problem with the lack of content and dodging style of play as I do with the general "yeah, ok, whatever, I agree" attitude OTM's early play exhibited. To a lesser extent, I also dislike the desperate, spastic finger-pointing and wagonhopping OTM is doing now.

So Phate gave you scum vibes but you

don't

find him suspicious. In that case, you've got to explain yourself better. Tell us your reasons for voting/unvoting, especially since you're not using the vibes you're picking up.

Like I said, I can't really get a read on anybody. I was just going with my feelings, and that can change from post to post.

However, I'm really trying to do something productive in this game, and going after Panzer seems like something I could get behind. I could change my vote later, since my reasons for voting Panzer aren't all that conclusive, but for now I'm satisfied.

Speaking of dodging questions...

[Phate]

Ok, what? Let me quote myself here, and you read it carefully, and if you still have a problem try this thing called grammar.

I don't have as much of a problem with the lack of content and dodging style of play as I do with the general "yeah, ok, whatever, I agree" attitude OTM's early play exhibited.

[Phate]

OHHHHH.

I stand by my post, though. I only find a dodging playstyle to be a minor scumtell compared to incessant agreement. This doesn't mean I won't bring it up.

For example, you seem to have a larger problem with a dodgy playstyle. Why didn't you jump on this?

[Phate]

Actually, OTM, I have to agree. It is suspicious. But I wouldn't say incredibly suspicious, and I still like an OTMlynch better than a Panzersreplacementlynch at this point. If someone wants, I'll post a case against OTM again.

[Phate]

I can see it from the town point, too, though, can't you? If I were replacing out of a game, I wouldn't say "go town", because at that point I would have no reason to lie, and it could alter the game for my replacement. So it is eyebrow-raising, but it could be just what it appears to be, and it's certainly not lynch-worthy.

[Phate]

Vote: QuickBen

for the scummiest beginning-of-day post I've ever heard in my life.

Well good job to either the doc or the roleblocker on only one kill.

Congratulating the doctor.

Wasn't the role opener supposed to open OTM's role?

Firstly, OTM was a townie. But more importantly,

how would you know that the opener didn't open the role?

and FOS MBF for dropping the hammer from left field with no warning.

While I actually agree here, this is definite hypocrisy. You were the one that put him at L-1.

[Phate]

Vote: Thanatos

I'm the cop. I have a guilty on QuickBen.

[Phate]

Unvote
Vote: QuickBen

Here's how it goes.

Code: Select all

If I'm scum, QB's town and Than's town.
If I'm town, QB's scum and Than's town.

If QB's scum, I'm town, Than's scum, and the role re-opener is scum (due to his knowing that the role re-opener didn't re-open the role).
If QB's town, I'm scum and Than's town.

If Than's scum, I'm town and QB's scum.
If Than's town, I'm scum and QB's town.

Lynching QuickBen is best for town. Totally aside from role-related evidence, QuickBen's opening post confirms him as scum. Also, lynching QB gives the town the most information, due to his bit about the role-reopening not happening. I swear, if QB turned up scum after we lynched him I would vote myself and go quietly tomorrow.

[Phate]

er... if he turned up town, I mean.

[Phate]

Than, I've already made my case. It's right here:

Lynching QuickBen is best for town. Totally aside from role-related evidence, QuickBen's opening post confirms him as scum. Also, lynching QB gives the town the most information, due to his bit about the role-reopening not happening. I swear, if QB turned up scum after we lynched him I would vote myself and go quietly tomorrow.

[Phate]

The only case I have is that I'm the cop because I didn't claim right away on D2. That would be stupid, even WITH the doc and roleswitcher/reopener. The roleswitch/reopen will only work if neither are scum, and I'm positive the reopener is scum due to qb's post, so I basically have to rely on the doc to not be mafia and to not be killed.

So maybe I would have claimed, but CERTAINLY not this early, except that I had to counterclaim.

[Phate]

Korlash, as for your quote, take a look at

er... if he turned up town, I mean.

Also, I meant, "If I'm town, Than's scum and QB's scum.

Personally, at this point I think it's Korlash, QB, and Than.

[Phate]

Wow. Miss one day and you're 1 vote away from lynch. On the plus side, when I come up town, you'll have 2 confirmed scum to go after - on the minus, with a potential 2 kill tonight, 2 after you lynch scum1, and 2 after you lynch scum2, I don't know whether the town will be alive that long. Just based on the fact that Than is taking this gambit suggests to me that the last member of the mafia is someone no one suspects, or he wouldn't have taken the risk. Of course, he probably didn't expect me to be cop with a guilty on one of his buddies.

Korlash, I actually do think you're the 3rd scum, but I don't recall mentioning that.

Is there anything in particular you want me to answer?