Open 54 - Basic 12 Player (over) before 529

[Crub]

That said, Crub, what do you think of wank's behaviour around the Andy wagon?

He acknowledged it but didn't find any merit in it and kept up his tunnel vision on ripley. Methinks there is a past history between them.

[Elmo]

What does this mean? Why do you find it scummy that we're contributing alot?

I think you're contributing a lot in terms only useful to you two - I could go and reread Face-to-face, for example, but I hardly have the understanding that you two have of it. I don't find it scummy, but I think that's what he means.

Glork

: Assuming you and Patrick were serious, you appeared to be pointing fingers at him in a pretty OMGUS way. That's not the kind of thing I'd expect from ScumGlork, but it's very probably worth a vote, considering

I

could be (in this hypothetical case) near-certain he was pro-town, so you should at least be getting town vibes. It didn't make much sense to me at all, at the time.

Mmh. If your vote weren't doing anything, there's no reason to unvote. But to be honest, I don't really care. I've heard it said a townie should always be voting for someone, on principle. I figured you might be trying to make it look like you'd voted for Patrick and were then satisfied by what he said, when you was actually unvoting someone different. Though I don't see the point, 's worth asking about. I see what you mean about Crub. Still think there ain't much reason to think I was doing it just for you, but I suppose jumping to conclusions like that ain't really scummy.

General gameplay question: Someone who's actively lurking is scummy, if that's what you mean. Someone being inflammatory can be more or less scummy to me, depending on why I feel they're doing it. I'm sure you can think of lots of tactically relevant reasons to get someone steamed up.

...when your explanation of your Andy-vote is based almost entirely on the way his posts have "felt" or "seemed" to you. Where is the intersection of

gut

and

logic

here?

I suppose I don't separate the two much. Nonetheless, I think someone else can follow the argument, which I guess is the important thing.

You posted "I think Patrick is town" out of nowhere. Nobody was talking about him, not even posting suspicions

But it's only six posts ago Glork says "Seriously, guys. The lack of Patrick votes is rather disturbing.". How is it possible that Andy doesn't see what I'm talking about? Shanba merely says he doesn't see how I can get a read from so little content. That's a perfectly legitimate concern. I don't understand how Andy can reasonably believe my comment came out of nowhere when you and Patrick have been bantering for the last page and a half. If, however, he were scum, it's the kind of thing he might say in order to say the same thing as shanba, but try and add weight to the case. I don't see how it's a mistake, and I only see an anti-town motive.

I'm not sure this list is helpful, there must be many reasons behind a vote change. I think this list could be trying to narrow our vision negatively.

It might be. Or it might not be. What's a good reason to believe it is? Ripley's pointing out possible reasons - I find it hard to believe someone would actually be mislead into thinking they would be the only possible reasons. Certainly, as soon as apple says "no, it was just me fooling around" anyone who was getting tunnelvisioned would probably say "oh, yeah". I don't see it as something a person would say because they were legitimately concerned about it, so it's plausibly something else.

...and I think it's strange that apple FoS'es the one he's voting for. To me, it sounds like throwing everything against him hoping for a lynch.

A single FoS is not going to significantly influence anyone's behaviour. I don't think it's true, and I see no reason to say that, apart from (wait for it) attempting to make him look more suspicious.

It ain't that strong, but it's a decent reason to wagon Andy for a bit and see what falls out. Eh, maybe you see why I struggle to keep this short, now?

Not sure what Crub / Wank are doing right now. I's just going to have to reread it a couple times.

[Ether]

3 Andycyca (IH, Crub, Elmo)
3 Ripley (appleof88, wank, Glork)
2 appleof88 (Ripley, Patrick)
1 IH (JDodge)
1 wank (Andycyca)

2 Unvote (Shanba, Sikario8)

12 alive; 7 to lynch.

[wank]

Where did I say that "posting too much is scummy"?

This should be kept secret but I am of the opinion that those who post too too much is scummy.

How else am I supposed to intepret the second quote? It would be great if you could stop being pedantic and give straight answers so we don't have to keep going back and forth.

Comment on the following two sentences please:
I am 100% townie.
I am a townie.
Anyone is welcome, not just pat.

[wank]

That said, Crub, what do you think of wank's behaviour around the Andy wagon?

He acknowledged it but didn't find any merit in it and kept up his tunnel vision on ripley. Methinks there is a past history between them.

I played my last game with andy. Like most of you, he's read up on mafia theory and has a good number of games under his belt. As such, he demonstrated his ability to act like a townie on day one in our game. In other words, I can't read his alignment on day one or at least, I find it hard to do so. Incidently, this is the reason why I find it silly to study so much mafia theory. To hunt scum successfully, one should employee an original approach. For better or worse, at least it's fun.

[Patrick]

I think you're contributing a lot in terms only useful to you two - I could go and reread Face-to-face, for example, but I hardly have the understanding that you two have of it. I don't find it scummy, but I think that's what he means.

Let's be fair here. We've each made one post on that game.

That's not really what I got the impression wank was saying. If he was, he communicated it badly.

I am 100% townie.

Somone claims to be 100% protown, or 100% vanilla townie, depending on whether you class townie as vanilla.

I am a townie.

Same as the above but with less extreme language.

What was the point of that? Now can I get an answer to what I've been asking?

[wank]

Very interesting. Not what I expected at all. But it is consistent with your character. Anyone else like to comment?

[IH]

I'd like you to answer his question.

[wank]

I will answer it when I feel the time is ripe. Speaking of which, you still have to explain yourself or are you biding your time as well?

[Gaspar]

I'd like you to answer his question as well.

[Glork]

GODDAMMIT IN EED TO STOP DOING THAT!


Gaspar = Glork

[Ripley]

Ripley: Given that we've seen plenty of "Village Idiots" on both protown and scum sides in the past, what made you conclude that Apple's behavior was more indicative of him being a scum-VI rather than just... an idiot?

I've said all I have to say about appleof88 already. We've had very little from him to work with and I've already responded in as much detail as I possibly could to requests to expand. See Posts 53 and 74. I've explained why I thought he was worth a page 2 vote and why I left my vote there. After that he stopped posting altogether, and maybe that's not surprising; he hardly needs to post, with Glork protecting his interests so very assiduously.

Patrick, you asked what I thought about the Andy wagon. I guess because of having to deal with the stuff that was happening at the time that affected me more directly, I didn't pay it as much attention as I might otherwise have done. I thought Andy's surprise at Elmo's comment about thinking Patrick was town seeming to come out of the blue was reasonable, it comes after a few joke posts and if you assume as I did that all the Glork/Patrick stuff was nonsense you might not make the connection that somebody had decided to respond to it seriously. I don't think much of his arguments in Post 77, but I don't see them as a big deal. Beyond that we get into the period of the game where I wasn't paying proper attention and which I haven't properly re-examined.

From people's comments it looks like the problem lies with me and not with the game, and things do seem to have livened up in the past day or two anyway.

wank never answered the questions I asked him back in post 96, either. He appears to believe he has the right to demand immediate answers to his own questions while simultaneously ignoring those asked of him, or, oh yes, answering them "when he feels the time is ripe". A very convenient stance.

[Andycyca]

It might be. Or it might not be. What's a good reason to believe it is? Ripley's pointing out possible reasons - I find it hard to believe someone would actually be mislead into thinking they would be the only possible reasons. Certainly, as soon as apple says "no, it was just me fooling around" anyone who was getting tunnelvisioned would probably say "oh, yeah". I don't see it as something a person would say because they were legitimately concerned about it, so it's plausibly something else.

I posted that because that's what I thought of that list. I usually don't take every post as true without contrasting it a little bit with reality, and I wanted to point out my feelings about it, as I don't think a vote change wasbound to happen for those reasons alone.

A single FoS is not going to significantly influence anyone's behaviour. I don't think it's true, and I see no reason to say that, apart from (wait for it) attempting to make him look more suspicious.

First sentence is true, though. I said that because, as far as I know, the FoS is used to say "I suspect you, but not enough for voting you" From all the "instruments" used to state your suspicion for someone, the vote is the highest (as it implies that you want to lynch the suspect). FoSes, HoS es and everything else is below the vote. That's why it looked strange to me. Why use a 1st level suspicion and then a lesser suspicion indicator? Doesn't make sense to me, but also, FoSing doesn't contribute actively towards a lynch.

I will answer it when I feel the time is ripe.

Why?

[Crub]

unvote

Not much to add at this point other than I find wank's playstyle irritating, but each to his own I suppose.

[Andycyca]

I'd like to read something from our most absent members (apple and sikario)

Sikario's sig says he's not posting "Because of school break" He said in 158 that he'll be out of school soon, so...

AWAITING comments from appleof88 and Sikario8

[wank]

I feel this is insulting of me to say but when was the last time a cop put up a sign reading radar check in half mile so they may catch speeders? Let's all loudly pronounce our guidelines for scumminess!! Why don't we just call it a game and let scum win. I already have anticipated the onslaught of questions to this comment but save your breath.

It's a shame and somewhat funny that no one else wanted to comment on my question, then again only a few replied to glork's question. And no one else picked up on his other post. Anyways, I thought it was pretty straightforward in answering his question in a not so straighforward way. Chew on it.

I am done talking for a while.

[wank]

The antecedent for that last "his" is pat. I am tired. Peace.

[Elmo]

Patrick

: Ya, I've said I don't really understand much coming from wank at the moment. On rereading I agree, I think he's just saying lots of talk = scummy.

Glork

: I don't understand why Apple's on your town list. I get kinda town vibes from him (oddly, cos there ain't much there) but I don't see how you can be that confidant. I also really question why Crub's on that list, stuff like 171 makes me feel ungood about him. This is more idle curiosity than real concern, fwiw.

Andycya

: Personally, a FoS from me is worse than just a vote, although I'm probably unusual in the respect - I think part of the problem is that there's no standard to what FoS means, and also that votes can mean different things. Obviously a FoS is worse than a random vote, for example, so it depends, but I see what you mean. I also see where you're coming from with the list, a bit.

---

I am 100% townie.
I am a townie.

These are the same. You can make arguments that they're not, but that's excessively pedantic, and although

you

might have some reason for thinking they're different, everyone else is unaware of that, and probably sees them as the same.

This should be kept secret but I am of the opinion that those who post too too much is scummy.

Where did I say that "posting too much is scummy"?

These hold the same meaning for me, too.

Very interesting. Not what I expected at all. But it is consistent with your character.

What'd you mean it's consistent with his character?

---

I do get town vibes from Andy, though, so

unvote

:

Andycyca

an'

vote

:

wank

because ANSWER THE QUESTION ALREADY. The guy who won the 2006 award for Best Mafia Catcher is telling you to answer the question,

I think he knows what he's doing

, maybe? Yeah?

Jdodge is lurking, as ever. I get kind of weak town vibes from Shanba but he ain't doing a great deal either. So that's three and a half idle. Eh.

[Glork]

Son, what I speak is law around here. If I say Apples is town, then he's definitely, absolutely town.

[Elmo]

Unless you're scum, of course. I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just curious.

[Crub]

stuff like 171 makes me feel ungood about him. This is more idle curiosity than real concern, fwiw.

Did you feel that I was targetting you when I said that you had lost town points?

[Elmo]

Uh. The statement obviously refers to me. I can't help but feel you're going to play some kind of semantic games about feeling "targetted" and therefore being defensive if I just say "yes", so I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

Crub: Have you stopped beating your wife?

[Crub]

Uh. The statement obviously refers to me. I can't help but feel you're going to play some kind of semantic games about feeling "targetted" and therefore being defensive if I just say "yes", so I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

Crub: Have you stopped beating your wife?

Firstly please don't bring my wife into the conversation, and please don't say that I'd ever beat her. Not cool dude.

Secondly mafia is a game of interpretation, if you say I am "targetting" you but you mean is that I "mentioned" you along with a number of other people in my analysis as having said something that I found off or strange, then I would ask you to please clarify that when I mis-understand you.

vote: Elmo

[Elmo]

Um.

I was right about the semantic games, then.

[Crub]