Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[karnos]

The bolded has nothing to do with what I've been saying, but ok?

Oh come one now, we aren't that stupid. "You didn't even do anything in 1800, that was all Math coaching you. " Is there some other interpretation to that other than you trying to implie that I only survived until endgame and won as scum (with a single loss of my team for that matter) was because MathBlade carried me. Yet he was busing me the whole game, so the implication in your post is an obvious lie. Yes, you are being careful to not directly lie, but instead you are making statements that are only actually relevant if you make assumptions that aren't actually true.

I was at L-1 several times in that game. MathBlade didn't jump in and save me, in fact he was voting me every time. You and the rest of town in that game made the decision to not lynch me, repeatedly, because of my actions. MathBlade was an awesome scum partner and we bounced a lot of ideas in scum chat, but if you are going to claim he was coaching me all game you need to re-visit the game and the scum thread.

You have some really dumb arguments.

Okay, that sounds like something worth talking about, instead of this irrelevant meta-gaming argument that I must be scum. What are my dumb arguments, from this game?

The only reason I mention Math is because I'm trying to prove a point that even if your argument about "vendetta" had any merit, it would be disproven by that. You brought it up first, genius.

How can you be so oblivious? I brought it up without having any idea whatsover that you later "beat" MathBlade in another game. I was guessing it might be a personal vendetta, you confirmed my guess. If I brought it up and I was wrong you wouldn't have confirmed my statement by admitting that were apparently keeping score.

Also, #2? wtf!? lmfao! I guess I should start seeking out Magna too to make sure I get my personal revenge on him? You really sound foolish, you're doing nothing to help the town, and just seeking to discredit me but not my arguments. You need rope. Badly.

Magna? Wow, you memorized the whole scumteam from that game. More evidence that it apparently hit really hard when you got that loss.

I have no problem at all with the sharing of scum reads, by all means spill your guts: who are your scum reads, alpaca*2?

"I have no problem saying my scum reads, but hey, here's a post where I don't put out scum reads." LOL

Yeah, sorry I care more about quality than quantity. Your scum read of me is dead wrong, might want to fix your radar. I mean if I wanted to act like Saru I could give a handful of scum reads based on idiotic meta observations, but they wouldn't be very accurate.

[Saru]

Oh come one now, we aren't that stupid. "You didn't even do anything in 1800, that was all Math coaching you. " Is there some other interpretation to that other than you trying to implie that I only survived until endgame and won as scum (with a single loss of my team for that matter) was because MathBlade carried me. Yet he was busing me the whole game, so the implication in your post is an obvious lie. Yes, you are being careful to not directly lie, but instead you are making statements that are only actually relevant if you make assumptions that aren't actually true.

You clearly don't know the difference between being coached and being bussed. Yes, Math bussed the shit out of you, but that has nothing to do with the fact that she coached your play throughout. In fact, it has nothing to do with what I've been saying. She literally would fix minute details of your posts and read lists to make them more townie-friendly. Her bussing you means nothing. That was her doing things to make herself look more townie because of site meta.

Okay, that sounds like something worth talking about, instead of this irrelevant meta-gaming argument that I must be scum. What are my dumb arguments, from this game?

The dumb argument is that you think I'm pushing you because I'm mad about the loss, and you're still pushing that line of attack. That is not an argument for why you're town, but only an argument to discredit me as a person. As scum, it's in your best interest to just discredit when you don't have an argument. And I'm not using meta to call you scum. Forget for a moment that I even mentioned Mini 1800. How about what I said about your play this game with you doing nothing? You have time to respond to my posts accusing you, but can't muster up the time to scum-hunt or put out reads? I don't think so.

How can you be so oblivious? I brought it up without having any idea whatsover that you later "beat" MathBlade in another game. I was guessing it might be a personal vendetta, you confirmed my guess. If I brought it up and I was wrong you wouldn't have confirmed my statement by admitting that were apparently keeping score.

What? Are you even reading what I said? I said that your argument of personal vendetta is total nonsense and I was making a mostly jokish remark about beating Math, therefore having gotten my "revenge." It was a poke at your silly argument. See: the laughing emote at the end of that sentence.

Magna? Wow, you memorized the whole scumteam from that game. More evidence that it apparently hit really hard when you got that loss.

Yes, now this is what scum does. More attacks on character. Guess what buddy, there are things called archives. You can go back and read games from the past, surprise, I know!

Yeah, sorry I care more about quality than quantity. Your scum read of me is dead wrong, might want to fix your radar. I mean if I wanted to act like Saru I could give a handful of scum reads based on idiotic meta observations, but they wouldn't be very accurate.

So your excuse for not scum hunting is because you wouldn't be very accurate? I guess we should all just stop scum hunting then and wait until the deadline? Like, that is no excuse. No one is perfect, myself included. Yes, you might be wrong, so what? Atleast you tried. Or would you rather be a dead weight all game?

[cmitc1]

TBH I'm tempted right here to just throw and let town lynch me, because seeing you screw up the game would be satisfying from a personal perspective, but to play to my win condition it would be a terrible play.

This is a terrible over-reaction, and feels fake as fuck.

I also kinda get the same feeling about it being fake I hate those "just lynch me" reactions.

[ironstove]

Hey Karnos, Saru, what do you think of the Tracer slot?

What are your thoughts on the Alpaca wagon that Nero formed?

Would you lick a dead frog for $10,000?

[Foxbird]

Votecount 1.11

ironstove

(1) - LmkGuy

AlpacaAlpaca

(1) - malpascp

Thor665

(4) - ironstove, cmitc1, karnos, Knighty Knight

LmkGuy

(1) - Lowell

Lowell

(1) - PenguinPower

karnos

(3) - Nero Cain, Saru, Thor665

PenguinPower

(1) - aronagrundy

Not Voting

(1) - AlpacaAlpaca

With

13

players eligible to vote, it’s

7

to lynch!

Day 1 will end in

(expired on 2016-10-24 15:08:49).

Mod Notes:

PenguinPower is V/LA until October 17th.

Prodding Knighty Knight and aronagrundy.

[ironstove]

cmitc1, is that an alt account you're on or did you start playing mafia on MS immediately in the normal queue like knight?

[LmkGuy]

I really have lost track of this game, so I am just going to concentrate on the last few pages. I wont let myself fall behind again and if there is anything that you want me to respond to that has already occurred let me know. For now I will be concentrating on page 14-now.

From the people that have been active during those pages, I can see why there are current scum reads on knight and Karnos. Both players have gotten extremely defensive whenever they have been pushed,

For knight, post 326 screams newb scum to me. Trying to say 'look at me! I'm doing stuff!'. After reading this post and going through his ISO, I just get a feeling of fakeness from his posts. Now I get that I am really not one to talk right now, but they try to seem like they are actively contributing, but there is just something off about his posts. I remember when I got my first game as scum and a lot of his posts are the same kinds of thoughts/posts that I made during that scum game. A lot of his reads contain words like 'maybe' or his opinion can be easily swayed either way, leaving options open for changing his scum/town reads as he needs.

As for Karnos, he is playing a scum recklessly or he is a frustrated town member. I am not too sure which side of the fence he lands on, based on reading his ISO. I am not super convinced of the meta-scum argument that saru is basing his read off, but his reaction to said read is what interests me the most. It seems like he is getting extremely worked up over this and that is why I have my read on him as either frustrated townie or overconfident scum.

Anyway, if I find anything else interesting (and time) before bed, I'll do another post, but for now, I will leave with a

VOTE: KnightyKnight

and a promise to keep up to date and posting my thoughts on whatever happens from here.

[cmitc1]

cmitc1, is that an alt account you're on or did you start playing mafia on MS immediately in the normal queue like knight?

I have no alts, I started playing on the normal queue.

[karnos]

TBH I'm tempted right here to just throw and let town lynch me, because seeing you screw up the game would be satisfying from a personal perspective, but to play to my win condition it would be a terrible play.

This is a terrible over-reaction, and feels fake as fuck.

I also kinda get the same feeling about it being fake I hate those "just lynch me" reactions.

Yeah, cool, you both get a feeling of something being fake that I am not even doing, that is nice. Care to comment on what I actually am doing?

[karnos]

As for Karnos, he is playing a scum recklessly or he is a frustrated town member. I am not too sure which side of the fence he lands on, based on reading his ISO. I am not super convinced of the meta-scum argument that saru is basing his read off, but his reaction to said read is what interests me the most. It seems like he is getting extremely worked up over this and that is why I have my read on him as either frustrated townie or overconfident scum.

Incoming off-topic game play theory, skip if you don't care.

Meh, it's an evolution in my play. I'm not a long time veteran, but I have been playing here for some 9 months or so I think. When I first started, I played like this, and I got scum-read for it, and sometimes miss-lynched. After a few games I adjusted my play style to something that fits more into the general "town meta" of these boards, and didn't get miss-lynched as often, but it didn't actually make me win any more often as town.

I've come to realize that playing to the meta is really just playing to lose. At best you play the same as everyone else and maybe have a 50% chance to win, but anyone smart enough to play in a way that counters the general meta style will easily deceive you. I'm not going to play to lose. If it gets my lynched because my fellow town players are too dumb to think there might be a way to play other than standard meta, so be it- if that is the case is probably a loser game for town anyway, so my lynch won't change anything anyway. So that is where this defeatist attitude comes from. I am not going to change my play style, I am not going to give you your "reads" you want so bad, because it's BAD PLAY.

I mean, the most hilarious thing to me about the common meta here is that giving town reads is seen as A+++ good townie move, but any speculation at all about power roles is super bad scummy play. Except if someone is actually scum, they can discuss PR in scum chat, while town reads just give scum a guide on who to kill first, who to bus, etc. It's hilariously bad logic, but because it's become ingrained into the meta here everyone seems to think it's a good way to play.

[karnos]

You clearly don't know the difference between being coached and being bussed. Yes, Math bussed the shit out of you, but that has nothing to do with the fact that she coached your play throughout. In fact, it has nothing to do with what I've been saying. She literally would fix minute details of your posts and read lists to make them more townie-friendly. Her bussing you means nothing. That was her doing things to make herself look more townie because of site meta.

Doesn't this sound ridiculous to anyone else?

MathBlade busing me meant an extra vote on me. My other scum partner was also busing me much of the game. And you STILL failed to get me lynched- in fact you decided I was a good target to recruit as a mason, and you killed yourself trying to recruit me. I guess that is why you are still sore about it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=66834

For the record, MathBlade didn't want me to claim Neapolitan, yet I did because I knew it was a decent play. It saved me from lynch day 1, and every day after. Apparently it fooled you too. Feel free to continue to blame the loss on MathBlade, but saying I did "nothing" that game is just pure ignorance.

The dumb argument is that you think I'm pushing you because I'm mad about the loss, and you're still pushing that line of attack. That is not an argument for why you're town, but only an argument to discredit me as a person. As scum, it's in your best interest to just discredit when you don't have an argument. And I'm not using meta to call you scum. Forget for a moment that I even mentioned Mini 1800. How about what I said about your play this game with you doing nothing? You have time to respond to my posts accusing you, but can't muster up the time to scum-hunt or put out reads? I don't think so.

You are really not paying attention. I thought you were town, sore about the loss. How in any way is that me discrediting you as a person?

But the way you have started obsessing over this and trying to defend your obvious lies makes me think that maybe you are scum, and you don't dare admit where you lied. Town!Saru could just say saru for the misteak, I was wrong. Scum!Saru has to won the argument, as wrong as it is, and push it until you get your miss lynch. This is looking like the later.

What? Are you even reading what I said? I said that your argument of personal vendetta is total nonsense and I was making a mostly jokish remark about beating Math, therefore having gotten my "revenge." It was a poke at your silly argument. See: the laughing emote at the end of that sentence.

If it's nonsense why are you so focused on it? Why are you keeping score? Why are you re-reading old games of mine? Are you reading through old games for everyone in the game... 12 players *X games each.. where do you have the time? Or is this just a personal vendetta against me?

Guess what buddy, there are things called archives. You can go back and read games from the past, surprise, I know!

Yes you can. My question is why just me? If you are legitimately scum hunting, you should be reading through everyone's games or no ones games. Why are you hyper focused on me?

So your excuse for not scum hunting is because you wouldn't be very accurate? I guess we should all just stop scum hunting then and wait until the deadline? Like, that is no excuse. No one is perfect, myself included. Yes, you might be wrong, so what? Atleast you tried. Or would you rather be a dead weight all game?

I'm voting someone. Are you reading the tracer/thor slot as town? Why not talk about that if you have issue with my scum hunting?

I don't think sharing town reads is pro-town. That is my stance, period. That doesn't mean I am not scum hunting, quit trying to put lies into my mouth. That is what scum does. You are quickly eroding the bias-town read I had of you and turning it into a malicious-scum read.

[Thor665]

Hey Karnos, Saru, what do you think of the Tracer slot?

Y'know, I have a name, and I've addressed you, and your case, and you haven't had the grapefruits to come back at me.
So I'll ask you this point blank.

Your case on Tracer was that she posted in a way that supported lurky scum trying to stay lurky and not be scum read for it.
That case is all well and good.
But then she was replaced out due to flaking.
She hasn't been on the site since.
Suggesting that her lurk was due to her own failures to come to the site and play the game either due to being busy, disliking all mafia games, or disliking this one so badly she decided to stop coming to the site.

So - how does your case make any sense at all in any way?

It's scummy that you're still acting like it does.
Justify your play?

[Thor665]

I mean, the most hilarious thing to me about the common meta here is that giving town reads is seen as A+++ good townie move, but any speculation at all about power roles is super bad scummy play. Except if someone is actually scum, they can discuss PR in scum chat, while town reads just give scum a guide on who to kill first, who to bus, etc. It's hilariously bad logic, but because it's become ingrained into the meta here everyone seems to think it's a good way to play.

If you claim who your scum reads are - what prevents scum from just reversing the list to get your town reads?
That doesn't work with PRs last I checked, because there's no such thing as a "not a PR list".
The proper compare - would be forcing multiple claims, especially on slots you don't scum read, which does narrow down scum's pools, and people do argue that as anti town.

Your debate with Saru is becoming very much white noise to me. I do tend to agree with his stance, because you appear to be more emotionally worked up, and I think his point about suggesting his scum read on you is based on you beating him elsewhere is pretty plainly fabricated (feel free to explain how it's a valid issue if you can - it looks like flail to me).

Are you calling Saru scummy?
If not, can we drop the debate and/or simply focus on what he's calling you scummy over?

@Saru - same goes for you, let's just pretend you bested Karnos on all the piddly points, and narrow down those walls by about half, yeah?

[karnos]

If you claim who your scum reads are - what prevents scum from just reversing the list to get your town reads?

This turns into a circular argument: as town, why should I bother giving you guys my town reads, you can just look at my scum reads and use PoE to see who I read as town.

Of course the real answer is that it's more complex than that. There are varying levels: "confirmed town, obvious town, probably town, nullish town, etc. If, for the sake of argument, I was being globally read as obvious town, and of course scum knows I am town, they might use that information to nightkill me because they know I would be hard to get a miss lynch on. OTOH if I am largely read as scum, null, or at best nullish town, that tells scum that they can let me live and try to get me killed through a lynch. But if you don't give out town reads as specific as that, all the scum really gets is that X people scum read karnos, no idea about the rest... they have less information.

It's good to keep town power roles secret from scum, everyone agrees on that. So why is it good to tell scum who your most trusted town reads are? It's completely illogical.

That doesn't work with PRs last I checked, because there's no such thing as a "not a PR list".
The proper compare - would be forcing multiple claims, especially on slots you don't scum read, which does narrow down scum's pools, and people do argue that as anti town.

First you say there isn't a "not PR list", and then you point out that such a thing actually does exist once people start claiming. You contradicted yourself here, so I don't really need to go into further detail. Suffice to say it's yet another illogical contradiction of the common meta that it's terrible bad to speculate about power roles but it's A+ good to get a claim out of a suspected scum.

Your debate with Saru is becoming very much white noise to me. I do tend to agree with his stance, because you appear to be more emotionally worked up, and I think his point about suggesting his scum read on you is based on you beating him elsewhere is pretty plainly fabricated (feel free to explain how it's a valid issue if you can - it looks like flail to me).

Are you calling Saru scummy?
If not, can we drop the debate and/or simply focus on what he's calling you scummy over?

@Saru - same goes for you, let's just pretend you bested Karnos on all the piddly points, and narrow down those walls by about half, yeah?

In the scenario where Saru is scum, and the Tracer/Thor slot is scum, this is scum!Thor telling Saru to back off because he is drawing too much attention to himself and he will be the next one lynched after I flip town.

[karnos]

So - how does your case make any sense at all in any way?

It's scummy that you're still acting like it does.
Justify your play?

But what have you don since you replaced in? You placed an OMGUS vote on me, and... pretty much nothing else. Until your last post on the Saru/Karnos argument, pretty much all your posts have been self defense. Where are you scum hunting? You aren't me, and you don't seem to agree with my philosophy on sharing reads, so where are your reads?

[Thor665]

Spoiler: Game Theory

If you claim who your scum reads are - what prevents scum from just reversing the list to get your town reads?

This turns into a circular argument: as town, why should I bother giving you guys my town reads, you can just look at my scum reads and use PoE to see who I read as town.

I don't find that unreasonably circular, in fact it's how I scumhunt on Day 1 in basically every game ever.
I agree that the inverse of town reads tend to be scum reads and vice versa - if you state one clearly than you're basically providing the other.

Of course the real answer is that it's more complex than that. There are varying levels: "confirmed town, obvious town, probably town, nullish town, etc. If, for the sake of argument, I was being globally read as obvious town, and of course scum knows I am town, they might use that information to nightkill me because they know I would be hard to get a miss lynch on. OTOH if I am largely read as scum, null, or at best nullish town, that tells scum that they can let me live and try to get me killed through a lynch. But if you don't give out town reads as specific as that, all the scum really gets is that X people scum read karnos, no idea about the rest... they have less information.

If scum can't figure out confirmed town and obvious null read lurkers and then look at scum reads to not be able to figure out town reads - then I think town has less things to worry about then stating their town reads.

It's good to keep town power roles secret from scum, everyone agrees on that. So why is it good to tell scum who your most trusted town reads are? It's completely illogical.

Well, many people would easily and happily point to townblocks and how they work to steamroll scum as evidence that stating town reads works.
I have literally never been scum in a game and unsure who townplayers townread - have you? Can you link me to the game in PM? This is an interesting discussion but is not game relevant really. But I'd love to grok this game theory.

First you say there isn't a "not PR list", and then you point out that such a thing actually does exist once people start claiming. You contradicted yourself here, so I don't really need to go into further detail. Suffice to say it's yet another illogical contradiction of the common meta that it's terrible bad to speculate about power roles but it's A+ good to get a claim out of a suspected scum.

If we take this around the bend of logic it's already going - are you saying we shouldn't get claims? Since a claim is like stating a town read?

In the scenario where Saru is scum, and the Tracer/Thor slot is scum, this is scum!Thor telling Saru to back off because he is drawing too much attention to himself and he will be the next one lynched after I flip town.

I think you are easily more likely to be flipped than Saru from this debate - in fact it is my intention to flip you regardless of the debate.
I don't see Saru being particularly at risk regardless of your flip though - no one is remotely making that claim.
Arguably, myself as your largest scumread (maybe) is the more likely person to be lynched if you flip town, right?

I note that you don't actually clarify the simple question of if you're scumreading him for these comments, nor do you address me pointing out how you're flailing, which you are.

[Lowell]

I really have lost track of this game, so I am just going to concentrate on the last few pages. I wont let myself fall behind again and if there is anything that you want me to respond to that has already occurred let me know. For now I will be concentrating on page 14-now.

From the people that have been active during those pages, I can see why there are current scum reads on knight and Karnos. Both players have gotten extremely defensive whenever they have been pushed,

For knight, post 326 screams newb scum to me. Trying to say 'look at me! I'm doing stuff!'. After reading this post and going through his ISO, I just get a feeling of fakeness from his posts. Now I get that I am really not one to talk right now, but they try to seem like they are actively contributing, but there is just something off about his posts. I remember when I got my first game as scum and a lot of his posts are the same kinds of thoughts/posts that I made during that scum game. A lot of his reads contain words like 'maybe' or his opinion can be easily swayed either way, leaving options open for changing his scum/town reads as he needs.

As for Karnos, he is playing a scum recklessly or he is a frustrated town member. I am not too sure which side of the fence he lands on, based on reading his ISO. I am not super convinced of the meta-scum argument that saru is basing his read off, but his reaction to said read is what interests me the most. It seems like he is getting extremely worked up over this and that is why I have my read on him as either frustrated townie or overconfident scum.

Anyway, if I find anything else interesting (and time) before bed, I'll do another post, but for now, I will leave with a

VOTE: KnightyKnight

and a promise to keep up to date and posting my thoughts on whatever happens from here.

So you have two scumreads, and you're voting the one with no votes rather than the one with an existing wagon? And the reason the one you're voting for gets your vote is because he's faux-contributing?

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

[karnos]

I think you are easily more likely to be flipped than Saru from this debate - in fact it is my intention to flip you regardless of the debate.
I don't see Saru being particularly at risk regardless of your flip though - no one is remotely making that claim.
Arguably, myself as your largest scumread (maybe) is the more likely person to be lynched if you flip town, right?

I note that you don't actually clarify the simple question of if you're scumreading him for these comments, nor do you address me pointing out how you're flailing, which you are.

Am I getting this correctly?

You want me lynched, and you don't care if I am town, but you are pretty sure Saru is town and you don't want him read as scum for getting a townie lynched.

That sounds pretty damn scummy to me, but maybe I am misunderstanding you.

[Thor665]

So - how does your case make any sense at all in any way?

It's scummy that you're still acting like it does.
Justify your play?

But what have you don since you replaced in? You placed an OMGUS vote on me, and... pretty much nothing else. Until your last post on the Saru/Karnos argument, pretty much all your posts have been self defense. Where are you scum hunting? You aren't me, and you don't seem to agree with my philosophy on sharing reads, so where are your reads?

I would suggest that my "OMGUS" is scumhunting. I expressed why I found you scummy, voted you, and that is a far more active and clear stance than my predecessor. It's pretty silly to suggest I'm playing like here whether or not I have a lot of reads now, because you've played with me multiple times and are fully aware that inactivity and hiding my opinions is not how I play regardless of alignment, so why are you trying to suggest that it is?

I submit it's because you're lying and are scum.

As to my reads, currently I have expressed scum on you and Iro though I have said your scum flip would pretty much auto town Iro for me. By dint of my agreeing and supporting Saru thus far, I think scum are incapable of figuring out my read on him, so I'll keep it hidden . I don't have any other particular reads at this point.

[Lowell]

thor looks better than karnos in this exchange, but gun to my head I think it's town v town.

[Thor665]

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

Isn't the logic for LMK scum here based on requiring Karnos to be scum (and, probably the more valuable scum). So why advocate LMK as opposed to moving to Karnos?

[Thor665]

thor looks better than karnos in this exchange, but gun to my head I think it's town v town.

I almost always look better.
I'm a master debater

[Thor665]

Wait, so you think Karnos is town?

[Lowell]

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

Isn't the logic for LMK scum here based on requiring Karnos to be scum (and, probably the more valuable scum). So why advocate LMK as opposed to moving to Karnos?

The point is he doesn't want to stick his neck out in any way, and has taken pains not to do so. Scum don't want to be held accountable for townwagons, but they also don't want to lynch teammates. So either way lmk saying "karnos is scummy" and then voting someone with no votes is suspicious.

[karnos]

I would suggest that my "OMGUS" is scumhunting. I expressed why I found you scummy, voted you, and that is a far more active and clear stance than my predecessor. It's pretty silly to suggest I'm playing like here whether or not I have a lot of reads now, because you've played with me multiple times and are fully aware that inactivity and hiding my opinions is not how I play regardless of alignment, so why are you trying to suggest that it is?

Why are you putting OMGUS in quotes?

Can you re-phrase your case on me without mentioning the fact that I am voting your slot? I don't think so.