Mini 523 - Game Over!

[Disciple Slayer]

That was a good example of HOW NOT TO BE A DOCTOR. Jeez. Let this be a lesson to everyone.

I've got a lot of work to do, will post after it's all done.

[Infinitive]

I'm on the list for an examination over DT. I may not have voted for him in the end, but I was pushing hard all through day 1, and I frequently questioned his roleclaim.

2 nightkills is very bad tho. I think the most likely possibility is Scum & Serial Killer, but there could be some weird bizarro double-mafia kill.

Regardless, if it's one town lynch per day and two whatever kills per night, we have very little leeway. Time for careful consideration, IMHO. If we mislynch again, it could very easily be lynch or lose.

[VampyreLord]

Dangit. Well, it looks as if DT was the sane doc. If we have another doc out there, then, well, don't protect anyone (Unless you think they're scum, hehe).

[Thanatos]

I'm on the list for an examination over DT. I may not have voted for him in the end, but I was pushing hard all through day 1, and I frequently questioned his roleclaim.

2 nightkills is very bad tho. I think the most likely possibility is Scum & Serial Killer, but there could be some weird bizarro double-mafia kill.

Regardless, if it's one town lynch per day and two whatever kills per night, we have very little leeway. Time for careful consideration, IMHO. If we mislynch again, it could very easily be lynch or lose.

Don't forget that a vig is a possibility too, but..why would he kill either of them?

[Thanatos]

Dangit. Well, it looks as if DT was the sane doc. If we have another doc out there, then, well, don't protect anyone (Unless you think they're scum, hehe).

Insane docs are pretty rare in general, let alone flavorless minis.

[Thanatos]

hmm..I did a short re-read over some things, and noticed that it was insurgent that pushed me over the edge about the the DT lynch. If there was a vig, that might be a reason.

[VampyreLord]

hmm..I did a short re-read over some things, and noticed that it was insurgent that pushed me over the edge about the the DT lynch. If there was a vig, that might be a reason.

If there was a vig, a SK

and

mafia (with our doc dead), shouldn't there have been 3 NK's?

[liamcool]

hmm..I did a short re-read over some things, and noticed that it was insurgent that pushed me over the edge about the the DT lynch. If there was a vig, that might be a reason.

If there was a vig, a SK

and

mafia (with our doc dead), shouldn't there have been 3 NK's?

I think he means if there's no SK.

[Thanatos]

hmm..I did a short re-read over some things, and noticed that it was insurgent that pushed me over the edge about the the DT lynch. If there was a vig, that might be a reason.

If there was a vig, a SK

and

mafia (with our doc dead), shouldn't there have been 3 NK's?

Yeah, what Liam said. I just wanted to mention that possibility, since you seemed to forget it.

[liamcool]

Or maybe the mafia get to kill two people a night for whatever reason (one for the godfather and one for the grunt/grunts)

[Thanatos]

THat's what VL said was a possibility...

[VampyreLord]

I did?

[Thanatos]

Oh, sorry. I meant Infinitive.

[Nudude]

Well.....fuck.

Not only did we lynch the Doc, but we have a potential SK as well.

Based on what was said yesterday, I find VL to be the most suspicious. He's been fairly quiet for most of the game, and Insurgent included VL in his list of suspect scum, so it would make sense for scum to off him so insurgent wouldn't be able to bring his case to us today.

FOS: vampyrelord

I feel HeH was killed simply because he was a pro - townie. I don't have the mental energy to look at it right now ( I will though! ) but reading through his thoughts might yield some clues.

[Hang 'em High]

Bah! Go town. And I spent all weekend getting caught up and preparing a post. Avenge me, townies!

[Gorgon]

Okay, so DT was actually the doc. Crap.

As I said yesterday, something tells me that the DT wagon was swarming with scum. Mafia and SK alike would definitely had an interest in lynching a doc. It allows them to kill whomever they want with impunity.

Thanatos is setting off a lot of bells right now. The way he admits that yes, he needs to be looked at now that DT was found to be a real doc seems suspicious to me. Weren't you saying yesterday that killing him would help the town in the long run? It seems to me that you admitting that you deserve scrutiny now might be away to alleviate suspicion ... that people are now supposed to think: "Oh, he admits that he did wrong and that he deserves suspicion; he must be town."

hmm..I did a short re-read over some things, and noticed that it was insurgent that pushed me over the edge about the the DT lynch. If there was a vig, that might be a reason.

How did he "Push you over the edge"? You were voting DT all through the second half of yesterday.

Also, this is all that Insurgent had to say when he voted DT:

At first I thought infinitive had a point when he said deepthought could be a regular townie pretending to be the doc, but now I think deepthought's just scum.

A compelling argument, eh?

This just looks to me like you're pointing the finger at a dead player who's now proved to be protown and using him as a convenient excuse for the mislynch.

Vote: Thanatos

hmm..I did a short re-read over some things, and noticed that it was insurgent that pushed me over the edge about the the DT lynch. If there was a vig, that might be a reason.

If there was a vig, a SK

and

mafia (with our doc dead), shouldn't there have been 3 NK's?

Not necessarily. Anyone who can kill at night can choose not to do so. A vig is particularily likely to skip his kill. It is possible that there is a vig and an SK, and that the SK killed tonight, but the vig did not. However, I think it's likely that Insurgent was killed by a vig rather than an SK, truth to tell. HeH was definitely killed by scum, though. He was much too protown-looking for it to make sense that a vig would have killed him, IMO.

[Infinitive]

I'm right there with Gorgon's analysis on this- Hang 'em High, out of everyone playing the game, was pretty much the only one that everyone could agree wasn't scum. Especially with him getting back into the game after the flamewar, I would guess that he'd be THE likely target for a scumkill.

I had forgotten about vig's, and a vig kill seems to be a decent explanation for Insurgent's death; Lord Nikon was a hardcore lurker, and Insurgent didn't really post anything about his thoughts before the day ended; that might have been taken for a scummy person, rather than one that just hadn't caught up through all the pages we had waded through. I really hope we've got a vig out there, rather than a SK.

Okay, continuing thoughts on various people that need to be examined:
Liamcool: for all the stuff that we were talking about yesterday; we now know that DT was town, and he was MAJORLY suspicious of Liam. I think Liam deserves going over with a magnifying glass, but that's just me.
Me: I pushed hard on the DT bandwagon, and even though I backed out at the end, the fact remains that I didn't buy any of DT's explanations till it was too late.
Thanatos: Thanatos kind of took over the lead on the bandwagon from HEH when he dropped into the game. From there, he posited a number of theories that turned out to be false, all of which served to make DT look scummy. I think Than deserves a very close examination.
Disciple Slayer: For someone who's posted so frequently, I can find very little to any of his posts aside from bluster or accusations that are based on things other people have already said. This is someone who, I feel, is not really helping the scumhunt. It's worth looking at him. To paraphrase Darth Vader, I find his lack of content disturbing.
Nudude: I've been getting a vaguely scummy vibe off of this guy for a while now, and I can't quite put my finger on why. It may be in part because he's rarely been voting for or doing anything that anyone else is doing, but I can't remember when Nudude has ever been at the center of anything, really. Again, though, this is mostly impressions, so feel free to ignore me on this one.

People I feel ambivalent about:
Gorgon: A big part of me wants to say that he probably isn't scum, just because he's been hunting so hard, and has made calls that have been, in retrospect, quite good. However, another part of me wants to say that if he WERE scum, those same predictions would be very easy to make, and would put him in a favorable light. I'm not sure what to do on this one, other than wait for more info.
DLS: She's lurked ever since the flamewar; despite the fact that she seemed to clear herself a while ago, the fact that she's just lying low and watching makes me wonder whose team she's playing for.

In regards to the Thanatos asking to be looked at, I am in fairness doing the same thing, Gorgon. I can't speak for Thanatos, but I am putting myself on the list of people to be looked at because of what i did do, and because not putting myself on a list of people that pushed for DT's lynching would be scummy. I have no fear of people reading my previous posts. It MAY be that Than is of a similar mind, but it may also be something else.

[charter]

Okay, continuing thoughts on various people that need to be examined:
Liamcool: for all the stuff that we were talking about yesterday; we now know that DT was town, and he was MAJORLY suspicious of Liam. I think Liam deserves going over with a magnifying glass, but that's just me.

Thanatos: Thanatos kind of took over the lead on the bandwagon from HEH when he dropped into the game. From there, he posited a number of theories that turned out to be false, all of which served to make DT look scummy. I think Than deserves a very close examination

I agree a lot with these two assessments, the other ones, maybe not as much. Just curious, but why did you leave me off of your list?

I'll admit too, I didn't buy DT's claim one bit, and I was convinced he was scum. I'll definately be a little more thorough before I form conclusions today. I'm also going to go back over the thread to try and figure out what DT was thinking.

[Thanatos]

Okay, so DT was actually the doc. Crap.

As I said yesterday, something tells me that the DT wagon was swarming with scum. Mafia and SK alike would definitely had an interest in lynching a doc. It allows them to kill whomever they want with impunity.

Thanatos is setting off a lot of bells right now. The way he admits that yes, he needs to be looked at now that DT was found to be a real doc seems suspicious to me. Weren't you saying yesterday that killing him would help the town in the long run? It seems to me that you admitting that you deserve scrutiny now might be away to alleviate suspicion ... that people are now supposed to think: "Oh, he admits that he did wrong and that he deserves suspicion; he must be town."

The reason I said killing him would give us information in there is because the way people responded to his lynch would give us more information. The people who jumped on it, and the people who pushed it hardest, would look protown or anti town depending on what happened. For the sake of fairness, I included myself. I really, really wish that DT was scum, but if, say, we lynched Liamcool, and he was a townie, I'd say it's likely for us to be in worse position today.

hmm..I did a short re-read over some things, and noticed that it was insurgent that pushed me over the edge about the the DT lynch. If there was a vig, that might be a reason.

How did he "Push you over the edge"? You were voting DT all through the second half of yesterday.

Yes, but look back to when the lynch stopped shortly after he cliamed. I distintly said that I was keeping my vote on him to keep him at L-5. When Insurgent voted, I could have unvoted. His vote made me not. I wasn't using him as an excuse. I was giving a reason why he might have been killed by an SK or vig.

Also, this is all that Insurgent had to say when he voted DT:

At first I thought infinitive had a point when he said deepthought could be a regular townie pretending to be the doc, but now I think deepthought's just scum.

A compelling argument, eh?

This just looks to me like you're pointing the finger at a dead player who's now proved to be protown and using him as a convenient excuse for the mislynch.

Vote: Thanatos

hmm..I did a short re-read over some things, and noticed that it was insurgent that pushed me over the edge about the the DT lynch. If there was a vig, that might be a reason.

If there was a vig, a SK

and

mafia (with our doc dead), shouldn't there have been 3 NK's?

Not necessarily. Anyone who can kill at night can choose not to do so. A vig is particularily likely to skip his kill. It is possible that there is a vig and an SK, and that the SK killed tonight, but the vig did not. However, I think it's likely that Insurgent was killed by a vig rather than an SK, truth to tell. HeH was definitely killed by scum, though. He was much too protown-looking for it to make sense that a vig would have killed him, IMO.

That's what I've been saying. All I had to say about insurgent was that, his death could have been a vig-kill.

quote tags fixed

[Thanatos]

Infinitive: Take this for what it's worth, but in regards to Nudude, I get the same vibe.

This may be considered a WIFOM, so discard it in terms of my personal defense, but...He's kinda playing the way I do as scum. Active, knowledgeable sounding, but never in the front or back of any attack, yet still scum hunting...

[Infinitive]

Uhh... Than, I think you just voted for yourself. Maybe you messed up on the vote tags? Just an observation.

And Charter, I keep neglecting to put you on lists because you somehow manage to fly under my radar no matter what you do. I think this is the third time I've had to do a double-take to realize you're even in the game. Maybe an avatar would help that some. Anyway, Charter probably deserves some examination for his participation in the bandwagon, but I honestly can't remember a thing he's done. I need to go back and read some more before I start pushing people again.

[Thanatos]

oh snap. I messed up with the Qoute tags. That was Gorgons vote.

Unvote

[charter]

Uhh... Than, I think you just voted for yourself. Maybe you messed up on the vote tags? Just an observation.

And Charter, I keep neglecting to put you on lists because you somehow manage to fly under my radar no matter what you do. I think this is the third time I've had to do a double-take to realize you're even in the game. Maybe an avatar would help that some. Anyway, Charter probably deserves some examination for his participation in the bandwagon, but I honestly can't remember a thing he's done. I need to go back and read some more before I start pushing people again.

I find this disturbing. I didn't realize I was invisible like that. I'll have more time to step it up in a day or so when I finally get on break.

[Infinitive]

Ok, just for the collective info, I'm going to assemble PBPAs for the four people I listed in my last big post (Nudude excepted, because I'm running on a vibe there, not really any real info yet) and post my thoughts attached to those. They'll be up in a bit.

[Infinitive]

Well, this took way the hell longer than I thought. As such, I just compiled the first 9 pages of posts from the various and sundry people involved; I edited out the flamewar and anything that seemed utterly unrelated to the actual playing of the game (such as talking about House, the TV show) Thanatos/Shotgun Kitten is up first:

(Shotgun Kitten):
Vote:Lord Nikon

Sorry. Started a new job. Work 40 some odd hours a week. By the time I get home Dad's on the computer...so I can post once or twice in the mornings, and that's about it. So sorry for the slowness guys.

(Thanatos):
Hello Everyone. This is my first game on Mafia scum, though I've played quite a few games on other places in the past. I'm glad I managed to get into such a small and fresh game so quickly. So, I suppose I should hop right into it with a page by page...Now then, let me see...
1. hmm. It's interesting that I see a weird relationship between Nudude and charter. It's true that moving her vote like that was awkward, but I wonder if he's looking too strongly for evidence. Then again, scum would, likely, want to lie low in the random voting phase, though I suppose the best ones try to take charge. Dark Lady's vote is pretty awkward as well...
2. Eh, kind of an uneventful resolution to the previous pages mini-drama. Deepthought shares my opinion, it seems, though his argument was a little off the mark.. I'm starting to both love and hate Nudude for his somewhat overly poetic language. It amuses me. It also makes me suspect him a little more and a little less, for the same reason. Mainly, it makes him hard to read. which means, A. I could easily misread him, and B. he could be using it as a cover.
"Is it coincidence that your comment comes after I propose we start having a look at lurkers?" Oh, I missed that one. FOS Deepthought
Gorgon, it should be obvious that scum, more than townies at least, would not want a vote, giving them a free night. It's true that they want votes on townies, but that's mostly a distraction to by time with as well as speed up something that is mostly carried out by the Mafia. Charter's story bugged me..can we get a link to that game to confirm it?
*sigh* long page, that was. I'll continue in the next post.

Page 3: Funny and Random arn't mutually exclusive. Nudude backed down, but that's a really odd string to pull. H'emH's comment about Nik's responce to D_L_S's vote (*pause for breath*) was really over the top, I think, since it should have been an obvious joke. Deepthought's vote on well, me, is annoying since it looks to me like he's trying to push a bandwagon on a lurker. Remember, she herself said she couldn't come often, so the lurking itself isn't suspicious. It's the reaction to the lurking. Of course, I know what her role is, so I guess that helps. *shrug*
Oh wait, SK didn't have any votes at the time. I thought she did. Nevermind. Still, my point on what's going on here is valid, I think. H'emH's vote, however, seems to be exactly what I thought Deepthoughts vote was. FOS
Oh, but I thought it was 5 to kill, not seven. That lessens it quite a bit.
Page 4: I am liking DLS's response to her accusation. If she is Mafia, she's not new. Most would panic at least a little.
Well, since it looked like SK never responded, I guess I should try and explain her actions, but I really can't. She most likely did a random vote and then had to leave the game. Hopefully, my own activeness will dissolve your suspicions of her, since she obviously didn't have the time for this game regardless of her role.
Liamcool's post was downright stupid. and Scummy. I mean, why waste your lynch on people just because your annoying. Mini's don't usually get more than 3 votes. Deepthought ignores this fact, which I thought was obvious...
Page 5:Nudude has pushed me further onto Deepthought.
Disciple going along with this plan, without adding to it, makes him look scummy, I think.
All I can say about this page is that it strengthen my feelings about Deepthought. I'll vote for him if he's not in danger of a lynch.
Page 6: And he's Not. I'll put him at L-3, though I would recommend against bringing it any higher than that for now. Vote:DeepThought for recommending Modkill, not speaking against Liam's plan to kill off all the lurkers, and obviously irritated reasponce.
Oh, and I also like Infinitive's explanation.

Oh, I should sum up my Opinions, Shouldn't I?
Dark_Lady_Shaiann: Seems innocent enough, so long as she doesn't slink back into the corner now that the heat is down. Neither Obvious townie nor FOS'd.
deepthought: I voted for him. Nuff said.
Hang 'em High: Is drawing my other FoS, but I'm not as suspicious as he once was to me. Still, I need to keep my eye on him.
Disciple Slayer: No clear reads, though his last post is disconcerting.
Liamcool: He fits the bill of a Scum Lurker pretty perfectly. He's here, but not often, and his posts don't accomplish much. And trying to get people to kill the Lurkers is odd, to say the least. If the DT bandwagon dies, I'll look at him next.
Lord Nikon: MIA.
Infinitive: I'm getting a good vibe from him.
Nudude: Same for him, but...it's almost too good. It's hard to describe the feeling I get from him, it's almost like...I think he's acting like I would if I was scum. Too in control. Still, he's under the protown list for now.
VampyreLord: Not sure yet.
Gorgon: Leaning to pro-town, but not certain by a long shot.
charter: I still want a link to the game you mentioned early on. If it checks out, I'll probably consider you Pro-Town
So there you go. Now then, introductions are over. Let the dance begin!

Not at all, actually. I've seen it happen quite a bit, after someone screws up, everyone turns on him. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Though your right, we can't vote for you just because we disagree, and your right that 3 is the standard. However, more than just disagreeing with your views on modkills, I find it downright Scummy. Theres more to the vote than that, but don't say I'm voting for you because of a simple difference of opinion.

Well, DT, let me ask you a question. What benefit does the town get from a random Modkill. Worse, what do they get by doing all but wasting a lynch as Liam suggested (and you seemed to help incite after he suggested it). We know how it helps Scum. How does it help US?
I don't think there is a reasonable reason (<_<) for you to do that. That is why I voted for you.

I saw this, and didn't ignore it. I just didn't really care.
Isn't it kind of unfair of you the claim that you should be let off the hook on the excuse that you learned to play differently? I suppose it explains your actions, which is why I wouldn't want you voted off right now anyways, but it still doesn't completely clear you...Most than anything, you've still failed to respond to my question. What does it do for the Town?

Fine then. It's a difference of opinion. My opinion is that someone you says that is acting in a way that helps the scum.
just so I understand completely, how does it play off of peoples unwillingness to kill off lurkers?

DT: hmm..alright then. Nothing i can really say one way or another at the moment.
Infinitive: Actually, I was just thinking that I wanted to hear Nudude's opinion on this.

I disagree. On the chance that DT is actually giulty, I'm willing to bet that new imput from other people will make or break the bandwagon...Besides, I don't see any other strong leads at the moment, to be honest. Except for Liam, but even that I don't consider strong at the moment.

LN's vote on the first page? I thought it was obviously a joke vote. No more, no less.
As for the other thing, you're right, it's not really pertinent to the discussion. That said, I take back what I said to this particular situation, as he wasn't arguing for no vote, he was just not voting himself. Not really scumy. Actually, it's a stupid scum move, but thats just WIFOM...
I disagree on moving on from DT on the basis that we've hit a dead end.
Charter: Thanks. Seems to look good enough.
Oh, and on a side note, I hate to ask this, but are you male or female? I ask because your name reminds me of Carter, a girl, so I apply that gender to you, and It's kinda baseless, but confusing for me.
And frankly, DT has been quite irritable lately. Of course, when prodded, I find it difficult to remain completely cool, so this doesn't really mean anything. DS, don't vote him because of an attitude. Vote him for completely different reasons.

*sigh* I don't want a lynch like that, DS. What have I been saying? Lets not lynch a guy for his attitude, lets lynch him for being scummy. That said, the evidence does seem to be beginning to pile...

unvote Cool it, kiddos. I don't want a lynch on the first day. I want more time to think. If nothing else, get a roleclaim out of him before you kill. (and frankly, I think it's too soon for that as well)
It's not that Deepthought hasn't done alot to make me suspicious, but this is moving way too fast.

Interesting claim..it makes me happy I unvoted. Not because I believe you, but it's sure to spice things up enough to get a clear answer.
Awsome. I wasn't the only one. He just claimed Doc.

Don't assume he's telling the truth.
Vote:Deepthought
L-2 is good for now. (yes, I will add and remove my vote as needed to keep it around there)
All I can say is that Doc is one of the best claims a scum can make. I want to see what happens for now.

Oh, sure it is. Millers arn't usually told they are such, and I've never even heard of a bulletproof, but a Doc...well, thems a standby of mafia, arn't they?
Good false claims would be vig, cop, and doc, and maybe some others if I've forgotten. Of those three, Doc is the best. Vig will stop and make people think, but come night, there either is no vig, or you're shot dead. Cop is perfect, unless you're counterclaimed and then its a quick night and the real cop gets a medic...
But claiming Doc...people want to believe it, because a Doctor is thier protection. Even though this is a team game, nobody wants to die. It ends their fun. The fear of losing a doc, maybe even more than a cop, is enough to freeze all but the most hardy of bandwagons. But the best part, even if your counterclaimed, the scum have an easy kill the following night. It's a win/win.

How can you detect lies if you don't ask him questions?
Besides, I hope I havn't given the impression that I do not think he is the Doc. I'm saying I'm not ready to take his word for it. It is quite possible for him to be lying.

He's at L-2, first of all.
I wanted to know what his claim is. That does not excuse or condemn him in any way. I didn't even ask him for a role claim, as you should recall.
Either way, he gave it, and I explained to him why it does not clear him. What did I do that was wrong there?

alright. I'm calling it quits for the night (and I want to get other peoples input anyways) but just so we're all clear on what I've been saying for the past page..
1. He claimed before I even mentioned him claiming.
2. When I mentioned it, I was not calling for him to do so, but for the people who had him at L-1 to get a claim out of him first, and I didn't think it was a great plan anyways.
3. When he claimed, I never claimed he was a lier.
4. My responce to D_L_S's unvote was that she shouldn't just believe him because he says so. I also claim that Doc is a good Scum claim. DT disagees.
5. I give my reasons, namely the inability of a doc to safely counterclaim and the psychological security a Doc brings.
This is what I have said tonight. I hope that I have not been misunderstood, and that people do not put words into my mouth.

Okay, here's my impressions. SK was basically a submarine; she surfaced twice then disappeared forever. Then Thanatos burst onto the board and quickly took over the DT bandwagon from Hang 'em High. He originally published the primary justification that most of the bandwagon gave for disbelieving DT's Doc claim. Later, he goes and proposes plans for a day 2 lynch of DT if everyone decided to pass on him for day 1. He also called for a plan on the town cop. (Later bits of this were after the quoted posts.)

I find this rather interesting; Thanatos has clearly been a leader, and the choices he's called for have all turned out to be to the detriment of the town. The cop plan, in particular, would have been an excellent orchestration to roleblock the town cop for a night as the scum nightkilled DT, which would have very likely happened.

As an impression, Thanatos could be acting in a classic false-leader role (and one that won my other game): by pretending to lead the town's scumhunt, he can carefully direct the efforts of most of the town to be at best marginally successful, and confuse any lynches/vigs/cops/SKs into acting against the town's best interest.

Thanatos could have been acting in earnest throughout all this. However, I'm seeing too many coincidences in this chain of events ATM.

FOS: Thanatos