Mini Normal 1829 - Game Over

[gigabyteTroubadour]

my sentence construction makes zero sense oops

[Nero Cain]

I'm lazy and about to go back to football but who were you scumreading besides Shadow?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I'm lazy and about to go back to football but who were you scumreading besides Shadow?

Yesterday, Karnos/Thor/Elyse were all candidates, with Karnos being #1 and Elyse being the least likely.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

ftr nothing karnos has posted is town, i really hate his playing up of SK paranoia for one. it's just interactions that make me hesitant to vote there.

[Elyse]

Wtf why was Thor killed I was going to vote him today

VOTE: karnos

[kraska77]

That was obviously an indirect kill

[kraska77]

Shadow seemed really eager to get him lynched yesterday and the day before. Doesn't make sense to push a lynch on LITERALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT MEMBER OF THE TEAM (mafia doctor)

Yeah I was thinking the same...
Elyse then

[gigabyteTroubadour]

ok so

if anyone scumreads one of {Michel, Kraska}, speak now or forever hold your peace

because i'm about to write both of them off as town and thus put town in an auto-win from my POV (lynch elyse today, then karnos if she's a ml)

I'm proxying my vote to Nero since he's confirmed town (serial killer nero does NOT kill gerry, karnos...), so if he has an objection to lynching in {Elyse, Karnos} then I want to know why.

[Elyse]

That was obviously an indirect kill

I'm an idiot

Also wtf I'm not scum. Why is this suddenly a thing? I wanted Titus and shadow both dead.

If it's not karnos it's giga or Michel in that order.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

That was obviously an indirect kill

I'm an idiot

Also wtf I'm not scum. Why is this suddenly a thing? I wanted Titus and shadow both dead.

i was about to write a whole set of paragraphs talking about how the last scum is more likely to be someone who the mafia team hasn't been voting for (which is why I opted for you over karnos), but then i just kind of realized:

this is kind of like Firebringer vs. Zach in 649 (sorry i keep referencing that game it's like literally the only serious experience I have). In this case, you would be Firebringer (someone with a relatively empty / not obvtown or obvscum ISO) and Karnos Zach (someone who did really blatantly scummy shit but got away with it because people found excuses to townread him).

Like I took a look back at the votecounts and you started the deadline wagon on Shadow... (unless IaI voted and then unvoted?)... So while I didn't find your D1 play townie, you have that working for you. I'm still mulling about how I feel about your reaction to the massclaim. Scum in this case would always know that Nero had a guilty on Shadow, so trying to stop it from going through makes sense. On the other hand though, Thor's approach to starting it was kind of scummy and your reaction to it could be just as townie. I've been trying to avoid having a strong opinion on you because I think my view of you has been hurt really badly by my Day 1 confbias. It's possible I'm right, yeah, but??

Point of that paragraph though is that your D2+ play hasn't really been townie or scummy enough to make me want to change my read on you. I think it's more likely that you've just been busy rather than avoiding the game/pressure, too, so... Just about as null as Firebringer.

Then with Karnos? If you take a look at the Day 1 lynch vote count, Karnos looks scummy as fuck.

MariaR

(L-0) :

Thor665

, MichelSableheart,

gerryoat

,

Blitzkrieg

, gigabyteTroubadour,

JarJarDrinks

, karnos.

gerryoat

(L-3) :

MariaR

,

Shadow_step

, Elyse.

Shadow_step

(L-5) :

I Am Innocent

,

Nero Cain

.

Blitzkrieg

(L-6) : kraska77.

Not Voting (0) : No one.

There were not one, but

two

deadline wagons trying to form. Kraska was trying to push me to vote for Titus, but coincidentally, Karnos hammers Maria? I want to believe that that's the kind of hammer you see from someone trying to save their buddies.

my conclusion is that i really don't know. karnos has brought little to this game besides SK paranoia, a fluffy "readlist", a shithammer, and a tunnel on town. I can't townread that at all. But then Shadow's bus-happy play with the supposed Mafia Doctor doesn't really make sense. You're more of a PoE read, but your vote on Titus could have very well have been a bus. The Shadow push D1 less so, but everyone is much more town compared to you.

EoD i'm probably voting karnos but i'm not 100% sure about him. i want nero to weigh in tbqh

also i'm going to say that mhsmith dying actually kind of sucks for town, not only is he an easy player to read for me, it makes deciding between MYLO and LYLO hard. Every LYLO I can think of happening is just multiple levels of weird...

[Nero Cain]

Shadow_step (L-5) : I Am Innocent, Nero Cain.

this tickles me.

Remind me why Michel is obvtown?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Shadow_step (L-5) : I Am Innocent, Nero Cain.

this tickles me.

Remind me why Michel is obvtown?

Transparent thought process, his support of wagons that Titus pushed didn't feel like the kind of support a buddy gives (I feel that he would probably be less obvious about the fact that he and his buddy are openly pushing the same wagon. Compare Karnos's pushing a vanity wagon on you at first and then jumping on much more quietly), and his re-evaluation of the game post-Titus flip doesn't read like busywork (and if he wanted a smooth transition in faking reads as scum, he doesn't HAVE to write catch-up posts). To me I think he's the most likely to be "misguided town".

Plus, I also trust your meta read on him from earlier.

if you want specifics i'll have to hop on a computer. any reason you ask about him over kraska or anyone else?

[Nero Cain]

I've been having doubts. Like, idk I still feel like his early game was a bit wonky and I wouldn't put it past him to go "look I'm RVSing scum so I can't be scum!"

Sometimes

, I think players play pro-town as scum and play like shit as town. I mean when Michel and I played in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=67506 he spent the whole game lynching town and never ONCE did he go back and reasscess. So why does he do that here? Why is a scum flip cause for a reassessment but not a town flip?

I mean its entirely possible he's just "misguided" but I'm going to browse his scum game before I pass judgement.

[karnos]

Giga, what is your actual scum case on me? Please don't tell me it's entirely based on titus meta of not busing. It's really flawed reasoning to assume titus couldn't break meta while you are also assuming I will break my meta.

Either you are the last scum, or scum were smart enough to see that I was debating between you and thor so they figured killing thor would get you lynched.

[Nero Cain]

so I figured killing thor would get you lynched.

FIXED!

[gigabyteTroubadour]

karnos i'm like 90% sure that Nero was nightkilled and mhsmith protected him... why would scum shoot an easy mislynch when they can shoot confirmed not-mafia?

And my case vs. you is crystal clear?? Your slot has done nothing town. You hammered town when two deadline wagons on scum were being formed, the way you dealt with my wagon D2, your pushing of Nero as a SK when he was literally confirmed town, your busywork readlist... Those are things I see from scum.

If you're town, I'm obviously still alive because whoever is actually scum is going to hope to bring us to LYLO, so maybe now is the time to explain why Titus wanted to lynch the Mafia Doctor or stop this shit tunnel on town.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

also you didn't even scumread transcend in 646 so i have no idea how your bussing meta applies here

[karnos]

also you didn't even scumread transcend in 646 so i have no idea how your bussing meta applies here

You picked out a game where I was lynched day 1 to prove I don't bus? Maybe my knowledge of the term is a bit off, but isn't it impossible to bus after you have been removed from the game by lynching?

If you look at my games in a less selective way, I think you will see I pretty much always vote my partner if they are going down, and often bus outright. I don't think I have ever hard-defended a scum partner in my entire history of games. Of course, maybe that is it. I'm playing the long-con. I bus my partner every single game until this game, so that I can hard-defend titus and get away with it! (And this *also* requires that titus can't be playing a similar long con: that is, she never bused so that in this game she could hard-bus and her partner would never get suspected).

You either must accept a ridiculous fantasy theory, or admit that you can't use META as a shitty excuse for a scum case on me.

Either META is a terrible argument, in which case titus might well have been bused. Or META is a good argument (it's not), and I couldn't hard defend a partner because I never do that in my meta.

[karnos]

so I figured killing thor would get you lynched.

FIXED!

Right, and it was my brilliant plan to reveal it myself, instead of simply voting giga.

I want to know why giga is town. I don't see it. Maria flipping town doesn't make transcend town! Even if titus, on an alt, is 100% against busing, that doesn't mean she has magical mind-control powers over her partners. They could still have decided to bus her against her wish. Giga's arguments don't make sense. I'm not 100% convinced giga is scum, because I don't like her nonsense arguments in other games as town, but PoE means if it's not Giga we are looking at scum michel or scum kraska, neither of which seems likely to me.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

ok but meta isn't even my argument? you kind of inserted that point in and are debating it while i have more than that. if anything i agree that this doesn't feel like your scum meta and i've said this, you don't feel as outwardly slimey as you did last game

it's just that every other slot is pretty obviously town (besides elyse)

and why tf does poe mean that it's between michel or kraska? why not elyse??

[karnos]

Then with Karnos? If you take a look at the Day 1 lynch vote count, Karnos looks scummy as fuck.

Is that really how scum looks to you?

Scum knows when scum is hammering town. Scum is careful, scum waits, scum buses partners who are absolutely going down.

No. Scum slide onto a town wagon as the 3rd or 4th voter with some crafted reason to avoid looking suspicious and then feign ignorance and anger when a town player finally hammer.

[karnos]

ok but meta isn't even my argument?

Your entire argument about titus is that titus hates busing so I am scum because I did not vote titus.

Yet when you look at me, and my actions, you suddenly have to stop using the meta argument because you know my play in this game isn't anything like my scum game.

So yeah, I guess it's not part of your argument anymore, but instead you just use META selectively, when it benefits you, and you ignore it otherwise?

And yes, I forgot elyse.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Even if titus, on an alt, is 100% against busing, that doesn't mean she has magical mind-control powers over her partners. They could still have decided to bus her against her wish.

???

pronouns are making this confusing bc titus and i could both be "she". assuming she is titus here

Me "bussing" Titus has nothing to do with Titus's scum meta, it's Titus "bussing" me that does. And the point isn't even meta, you never addressed what scum have to gain from a double bus that could very well risk their most important member.

Then with Karnos? If you take a look at the Day 1 lynch vote count, Karnos looks scummy as fuck.

Is that really how scum looks to you?

Scum knows when scum is hammering town. Scum is careful, scum waits, scum buses partners who are absolutely going down.

No. Scum slide onto a town wagon as the 3rd or 4th voter with some crafted reason to avoid looking suspicious and then feign ignorance and anger when a town player finally hammer.

If scum are about to lose a PR or a skilled player to a rushed, all-town deadline wagon then I think they would stick their neck out and hammer a townie. You ended the day fast when there was a clear attempt that people weren't ready, and deadline isn't an excuse because 18 hours would have been enough time to push Shadow or Blitz.

Also stop misrepping my argument and saying it's 100% meta when it's not??

[gigabyteTroubadour]

You hammered town when two deadline wagons on scum were being formed, the way you dealt with my wagon D2, your pushing of Nero as a SK when he was literally confirmed town, your busywork readlist... Those are things I see from scum.

^where is the "meta" in this

like, protecting buddies, dodging wagons pushed by buddies, keeping options open, filler... that's not town at all

[gigabyteTroubadour]

clear attempt

*when it was clear that