Newbie 1741 - Game Over

[shaddowez]

So, I'm going to hop on the unpopular bandwagon here and do this:

VOTE: Titus

She's backtracking whenever she's confronted about anything, and her reasoning is lackluster at best. This doesn't read like Titus' town game at all.

Examples: 61 - algebra never uses the term "preflip associations", so no idea where that's coming from. 188 she says she never had a strong scumread on nn30, but 35, 37, and 74 all seem to contradict that.

@algebra

- did you ever reread Titus, and if so what do you think?

[Titus]

Titus is at L-1 so we don't want to lynch the slot right now because we should get a good feel on the other players and possibly get some assosicative reads.

Algebra never said preflip associations, he said associative reads. How very semantic of you.

Also, I never backtracked on anything. I knew nn30 was scared but my whole point was to sort him. I literally spent pages on Zito with that.

When Zito pushes you, you randomly dig up old shit based on semantics. What gives?

I might be changing who algebra's partner is soon. This definitely seems like counter wagon shopping.

[algebra]

And your vote doesn't qualify for that because....?

Also, lol at you being a newbie when you're using terms like preflip associations.

Remember this Titus?

[Titus]

Yeah, my very point is that you literally said associative reads and not preflip associations, but that's like saying shoe or footwear. They're synonymous.

[Morning Tweet]

Not feeling algebra/nn30 scumteam possibility anymore. The idea of both scumbuddies getting scumread, amassing 3-4 votes, and simultaneously bussing each other (all in the first day) seems unlikely.

The newest addition to the algebra/shadowez + titus/nn30 development:

Spoiler: shadowez's case

Titus is at L-1 so we don't want to lynch the slot right now because we should get a good feel on the other players and possibly get some assosicative reads.

Also, lol at you being a newbie when you're using terms like preflip associations.

Examples: 61 - algebra never uses the term "preflip associations", so no idea where that's coming from.

Even if this example weren't nitpicky, it doesn't really support the point he is supposed to be making examples for, anyway.

His second example:

188 she says she never had a strong scumread on nn30, but 35, 37, and 74 all seem to contradict that.

Is weak reasoning. 35 she uses "suspect" (strong scumread, hm?) and 37 isn't talking about anyone in particular. In 74 "Newbie scum wanting a no lynch" is her explanation for why her vote isn't as funky as Papa made it out to be.

The case as a whole is an accusation:

She's backtracking whenever she's confronted about anything, and her reasoning is lackluster at best.

with no basis.

My only concern with a algebra/shadowez scumteam is how 'obvious' it appears, (too scummy to be scum), but I suppose that's not really a valid argument.

I haven't yet decided how I feel about Empoof, and this vote is no longer helping to pressure him
UNVOTE:

I'm going to bump this for algebra in case he missed it, judging by his post he was online a bit ago yet didn't respond:

@algebra:

Who would you say are your top 3 scumspects? I don't need reasons just a list is cool.

[Empoof]

Alright too sleepy to think, sorry. Not that I was doing any of that before PogChamp. See you guys tomorrow. If that deadline's right on page 1 we still have 5~ days

I gave up coffee 3 months ago but might jump on the horse again. I swear coffee just makes you a better human being if taken in moderation. It was just the moderation part I struggled with

[Papa Zito]

Guys

I forgot to tell you about something extremely important

Today is FACE Day. Happy FACE Day everyone!



FACE

[aronagrundy]

grundy - your recent posts seems to be in a constant state of self-defense, rather than actually trying to scum hunt. Is your vote on algebra in 231 because you actually think he's scum, or because he's antitown? Considering we still have 6 days left, do you think a lynch on not a scum read is useful?

A good part of it was that I reevaluated a lot of my reads and I was trying to figure out where to go from there. To answer your question, when I stopped interpreting post 172 differently, I saw nn30 as less scummy. algebra ended up seeming less town because of the whole post 172 interpretation as well.

I agree with what a number of people have said and I think that nn30 and algebra can't be scum together, but it's likely that one of them is (I think there is logic behind both of the initial wagons on them). I don't think it's nn30 anymore, so yes I believe that he is likely scum right now.

That question seems kind of general. Because of the small number of players in this game and the fact that the only way we have to catch scum is to lynch someone, I don't think that we should lynch someone unless we think that they're scum.

[aronagrundy]

@algebra:

put yourself in newbscum shoes, and think: do i want to be an aggressive leader, or a passive follower? hopefully you said passive follower, because that's what nn is doing rn. ive bolded all the parts where he's indecisive/soft stance.

Is being passive necessarily a scumtell, though?

@shaddowez:

Somebody asked me about my thoughts on Zito, but I can't find the post right now (on phone). Currently I'm town reading him. He's definitely pushing, and drawing attention to himself in a way that scum generally don't like.

I'm not sure what to think of Titus right now, but know she can be stubborn as either alignment, so their back and forth being multiple pages doesn't surprise me.

So first you say her meta isn't AI, and then you say:

So, I'm going to hop on the unpopular bandwagon here and do this:

VOTE: Titus

She's backtracking whenever she's confronted about anything, and her reasoning is lackluster at best. This doesn't read like Titus' town game at all.

Examples: 61 - algebra never uses the term "preflip associations", so no idea where that's coming from. 188 she says she never had a strong scumread on nn30, but 35, 37, and 74 all seem to contradict that.

@algebra

- did you ever reread Titus, and if so what do you think?

Why are you dragging her meta into this if you yourself have said that it's not AI?

[nn30]

So I wrote a book on the topic 'replying to everyone that had questions for me.'

Then I failed to hit submit and walked away. I'm now salty.

I'll try again tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah I actually agree with Titus.

Which might mean I'm officially clinically insane I dunno.

VOTE: shaddowez

[Dunhallym]

OK I have a bit of time so I'll try to address the points I wanted to address yesterday morning. Hopefully I won't fall asleep before I'm done.

[Dunhallym]

@arona

When nn30 flips red we should definitely consider Titus

OK this is algebra’s famous post 172™. I quote it again.

My original logic was that because titus's case was wrong (and it would be wrong if nn30 flipped scum), then she had a good chance of being scum. I wasn't really thinking about it in the context of the relationship of nn30 and titus. I changed my mind to thinking titus is town regardless of her case being right or not.

My case on empoof has a lot to do with titus being town so I'm not sure what you're talking about me pushing this logic of titus being scum.

Of course my assumption (that algebra is saying titus is scum because her case is wrong) could be false, but so could yours (that algebra is saying that titus is distancing herself from nn30). That's why I've asked algebra to clarify what he meant.

Now reread post 172™: nn30 flips red means nn30 is guilty so algebra says “when nn30 is proven scum we should look at Titus” which is equivalent to saying nn and Titus are likely partners. I don’t see how this can read differently. Titus voted nn in the beginning, hence why I talked of distancing. Now regarding the bolded part, I’m not saying that YOU think Titus is scum, I’m saying that you are accusing Empoof of trying to get us to lynch first you/algebra then Titus because of the following logic: algebra/arona is false means Titus is scum for suggesting it so once either of you flips town, then we lynch Titus. I didn’t see Empoof suggesting that and in fact, it was you who pushed this theory.

Now your logic is inferring that algebra town = nn30 scum, which is flawed. There is a (admittedly slim) possibility that both algebra and nn30 are town.

Explain this further. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't state this anywhere. I think you're referring to the part where I'm trying to explain what I saw as algebra's logic in 172. I meant it as, if nn30 is scum, then algebra and I can't both be scum which doesn't need explanation. This doesn't mean the same as if algebra is town, then nn30 is scum. They could both be town or both could be scum, but I agree that these two possibilities are unlikely and that one of the two is probably scum.

Sorry, my English betrayed me. I meant your logic implies that algebra town= nn scum, not “infers”. I’ll try to be clearer. algebra indeed seems to suggest that Titus is pushing algebra/arona to distract us from nn30. However, you are stretching things. Because if algebra and nn are both innocent then nn30 will not flip red and Titus cannot be his partner. So by interpreting 172 the way you do, you imply that algebra town is equivalent to nn scum.
Now I wanted to clarify this but I’m too tired to make my mind on what to think regarding arona. Input welcome.

*snip*

That question seems kind of general.

Because of the small number of players in this game and the fact that the only way we have to catch scum is to lynch someone, I don't think that we should lynch someone unless we think that they're scum.

I’m not sure that I get the bolded part.

[Dunhallym]

@Titus

Welp. That didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would.

I am no longer interested in lynching nn30 though, I think those voters are on the wrong track. Grundy and Big Poof strike me as bros. Algebra's a mess and I see why he's getting flak but I'm super unsure about what he's doing or why. Tweet needs to post more - Don't Let Your Dreams Be Dreams. Shadow's lack of presence continues to be a major concern. I want to throw Titus through a window regardless of her alignment.

I think that's about where I'm at.


Time to start Doing Stuff I guess I'll start here.

@algebra:

Who would you say are your top 3 scumspects? I don't need reasons just a list is cool.

You forgot me
A few questions for you:
1) you said earlier you had reads but didn't want to share them yet. Why?
2) what were those reads and are they different from the ones you express now that you've reread things ?

[Dunhallym]

@algebra

@dunhallym

yes, gut.
no
everyones town except nn30 and titus
im always an easy target, usually described as a "liability"

*snip*

going to reread titus and reach into my gut and see what i get when i take my hand out

Waiting to see your take on Titus.
Regarding the bolded part, I see what you mean and I’m sorry if you feel frustrated because of it. But at the same time, you don’t seem to be following the game or making much effort to at least answer questions so I think it is also up to you to try and change that.
Now, I still have some problems with you. As I know that, being of the “reasonable type, I tend to always suspect “stubborn” players, I had a look at your previous games, in which you were town. And in your very first posts, you talked about players being at l-1 and how that’s dangerous especially in a newb game, etc… and you genuinely seemed scared about it. Now when I compare this to the way you put Titus at l-1 when all you have is a “gut feeling” about her, I see a discrepancy. I also feel that even though your playstyles are similar (very short posts and not many explanations) you were had stronger opinions and did a better job explaining them. The second point is also about this l-1 post: you claimed you wanted to stir discussion with it but you've not really contributed to the conversation. I already mentioned it but I'm always wary of this attitude. And third, the way you came to quote Titus suggests to me that you may be following the game more closely than you otherwise seem to, and that's not sitting right with me.

And with this I'm off to bed.

[Dunhallym]

This is of course directed

@Zito

. As hilarious as it may sound I somehow mixed them up.

@Titus

Welp. That didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would.

I am no longer interested in lynching nn30 though, I think those voters are on the wrong track. Grundy and Big Poof strike me as bros. Algebra's a mess and I see why he's getting flak but I'm super unsure about what he's doing or why. Tweet needs to post more - Don't Let Your Dreams Be Dreams. Shadow's lack of presence continues to be a major concern. I want to throw Titus through a window regardless of her alignment.

I think that's about where I'm at.


Time to start Doing Stuff I guess I'll start here.

@algebra:

Who would you say are your top 3 scumspects? I don't need reasons just a list is cool.

You forgot me
A few questions for you:
1) you said earlier you had reads but didn't want to share them yet. Why?
2) what were those reads and are they different from the ones you express now that you've reread things ?

[Papa Zito]

@Dunny:

I didn't forget you

1. WARNING: PLAYSTYLE/THEORY NONSENSE AHEAD WOOP WOOP WOOP. I believe information control, as either faction, is a key to winning mafia games. There are times when giving my opinion on a player may be more detrimental than helpful. For example, let's say I'm super suspicious of King Grundy, for whatever reason - gut, a "tell", whatever. I may not want to jump up and down and immediately announce this suspicion for several reasons. Perhaps another player is already grilling King Grundy about something, maybe even something completely unrelated - by not interrupting that process, I get to watch

both

players' interactions and thus possibly gain valuable insight into both. Maybe nobody is paying any attention to His Royal Highness at all, in which case maybe he's feeling quite comfortable - and is more liable to slip. Maybe my read is more based on emotion which is something I can't really back up well enough or I feel isn't really worth discussing. Maybe the game state is such that if I'm being Loud and Proud I'll be drowning out other voices. There's all kinds of possibilities.

The unspoken followup question is of course "why did you express those reads now?" A few reasons: 1. I felt the conversation had died down a bit and hoped it would spark things again; 2. I'd formed a bit more of a cohesive view of the game and felt better about how I was reading things; and 3. I strongly suspect I'll be NKd tonight so it's better to have that out in the thread now.

2. Honestly most of those reads went from nulls to

something

, mostly due to lack of posting. At the time I preferred being somewhat dark and mysterious anyway in hopes that made our scum team nervous. My read on nn30 was the big one really, he flipped for a few reasons which I'm not super inclined to discuss at this point.

[aronagrundy]

Now reread post 172™: nn30 flips red means nn30 is guilty so algebra says “when nn30 is proven scum we should look at Titus” which is equivalent to saying nn and Titus are likely partners. I don’t see how this can read differently. Titus voted nn in the beginning, hence why I talked of distancing. Now regarding the bolded part, I’m not saying that YOU think Titus is scum, I’m saying that you are accusing Empoof of trying to get us to lynch first you/algebra then Titus because of the following logic: algebra/arona is false means Titus is scum for suggesting it so once either of you flips town, then we lynch Titus. I didn’t see Empoof suggesting that and in fact, it was you who pushed this theory.

Yes that was my logic at the time. I had just decided that titus was town after all and when empoof came along and tried to explicitly push the arona/algebra team (despite initially saying algebra was town and not really describing his suspicions toward me) I saw the possibility of opportunistic scum. I wasn't entirely satisfied with his explanations as to why he thought I was scum upon reading the thread but the speed at which he abandoned pushing algebra/myself did quite a bit to remove my suspicions (it meant he likely wasn't looking for a double mislynch after all, but also now that I'm feeling more strongly that algebra is scum the fact that he was willing to discuss lynching algebra in the first place upon his arrival gave him some town points).

I address the multiple interpretations of Post 172 and how looking more closely at them shifted my reads here:

To clarify our different assumptions on page 172, I'm saying that algebra is mostly reacting to titus's push on him/myself, and saying that she's probably scushe's wrong. I assumed this because it came right after me pointing out that algebra has never scumread me. This is how I read it. Perhaps wrongly, because I was personally in the mindframe of "wtf is titus saying." In other words, I'm assuming that 172 was primarily reactionary to titus's case, and you're assuming that it's primarily accusatory of titus and nn30 as a scumteam. I admit that because of my position I never saw it the way you did and that could have been a mistake. I'm not sure if I would go so far as to call it an invalid assumption, though, since the logic behind my assumption (I think) makes sense. This does make nn30 seem less scummy, since he'd be more inclined to interpret 172 the way you did, I suppose. Of course algebra could always clarify what he meant/what he thinks now like I asked him to.

Sorry, my English betrayed me. I meant your logic implies that algebra town= nn scum, not “infers”. I’ll try to be clearer. algebra indeed seems to suggest that Titus is pushing algebra/arona to distract us from nn30. However, you are stretching things. Because if algebra and nn are both innocent then nn30 will not flip red and Titus cannot be his partner. So by interpreting 172 the way you do, you imply that algebra town is equivalent to nn scum.
Now I wanted to clarify this but I’m too tired to make my mind on what to think regarding arona. Input welcome.

You're seeing the rejection of the possibility of algebra/nn30 both being town when it never existed. I'm pretty sure every townie that pushes a case is aware there's a chance they may be wrong and just doesn't feel the need to address the multiple ways their case may be wrong. Honestly I never gave much thought to the idea of algebra/nn30 both being town but I can't say there was ever a moment where I thought to myself, "wow it's completely impossible these guys are both town."

*snip*

That question seems kind of general.

Because of the small number of players in this game and the fact that the only way we have to catch scum is to lynch someone, I don't think that we should lynch someone unless we think that they're scum.

I’m not sure that I get the bolded part.

In larger games you see more town killing roles which can also get rid of scum. If it was twice the number of people we could get away with just ignoring algebra and leave him to be killed by the vig.

[Titus]

@Titus

Welp. That didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would.

I am no longer interested in lynching nn30 though, I think those voters are on the wrong track. Grundy and Big Poof strike me as bros. Algebra's a mess and I see why he's getting flak but I'm super unsure about what he's doing or why. Tweet needs to post more - Don't Let Your Dreams Be Dreams. Shadow's lack of presence continues to be a major concern. I want to throw Titus through a window regardless of her alignment.

I think that's about where I'm at.


Time to start Doing Stuff I guess I'll start here.

@algebra:

Who would you say are your top 3 scumspects? I don't need reasons just a list is cool.

You forgot me
A few questions for you:
1) you said earlier you had reads but didn't want to share them yet. Why?
2) what were those reads and are they different from the ones you express now that you've reread things ?

Sorry about that. I forgot.

I was looking at the interactions between algebra and Grundy. My worst habit is tunnelling, so I deliberately sat back and waited. We had algebra, no point in trying to force the whole puzzle. Grundy has improved immensely and he responses to my questions were not bad.

Meanwhile, Shaddowez seems to be flailing but in a scummy way. He actually is backtracking on positions in an effort to counter wagon for algebra

[nn30]

I feel like I've missed the window of relevance to respond to some of the questions posed to me - it'd be weird to bring it up now. If anyone has something burning that I haven't answered, please let me know and I'd be happy to do so.

I want to see if I can't suss out Algebra's scum buddy (assuming that, however unlikely, that we're not both town) based on some associations. This analysis is based on the 'talk is cheap' mantra - I'm only looking at votes which have been cast. I'm also assuming that no bussing has occurred to this point.

Algebra has voted for Titus and myself (removing both of us as his likely partners). Shaddowez, Titus, Arona and Dunhallym have all voted for Algebra at one point. This leaves only Papa Zito, Morning Tweet, Empoof as the most likely partners. I have some thoughts as to the most likely but I'll keep those to myself for the moment.

[Empoof]

Papa idk if I'm in some weird work headspace but that theory post made me have an epiphany, thanks fam. Might see some shifts in my "fart thoughts on page" playstyle

Also I missed FACE day, my b.

shadow

how you doing over there

Short break back to work

[Titus]

Nn30, good start. Scum can engage in bussing though. Look deeper. Look at why and when.

[nn30]

@Titus - You're right, bussing could happen. Though I'm assuming that it wouldn't happen on day one. I imagine bussing is good for mid/late game when being on the wagon that turns up a scum gains you some cred among the town. Doing that right now and risking turning the game into 7 vs 1 seems suboptimal.

[Titus]

@Titus - You're right, bussing could happen. Though I'm assuming that it wouldn't happen on day one. I imagine bussing is good for mid/late game when being on the wagon that turns up a scum gains you some cred among the town. Doing that right now and risking turning the game into 7 vs 1 seems suboptimal.

Agreed. But what if voting your buddy was the only way to save him? All angles need to be considered. Sometimes players are suboptimal.

My biggest moonlogic moments were when I eliminated a suboptimal scenario. You could be right and shadow is town. You'll reach the same result anyway.

[Xalxe]

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