Mini 1830 - Game Over

[House]

Professor eager with his impressive seven game history is more interested in picking an argument with me and making a shitcase on town than doing anything that's actually productive.

I'm fine with him dying today.

[eagerSnake]

I regularly do 90% of them as town.

That list is as garbage as you.

That's because you're garbage town. Why would you do these things as town? Do you think it's cool? You want to be "Dr. House?" You're not.

Also, another bogus argument to call me scum.

[House]

Your attempt to direct the game into a lynch on an easy target is not going to work.

I've been watching you. You think you're slick, but you're not.

You can think whatever you want of my town game, but my scum game is amazeballs because i prefer the alignment and know how to use it to best advantage.

You, on the other hand, are fumbling around with it like a toddler.

[Gamma Emerald]

Striking NAI ones, commenting on plainly wrong ones.

Spoiler:

[quote=eagerSnake post_id=8357511 time=1474678130 user_id=28013 post_num=697]"A few actions that are scumtells"Not doing anything pro-town.(Could be Village Idiot)
Actions not matching claimed motivations.
Claiming to have town motivations, but doing nothing to advance the town's cause.
Hiding.
Avoiding digging or giving opinions.
Fear of drawing attention.
Deliberate lurking.
Worrying over whether they look scummy.
Discouraging discussion.
Refusing to make a case on anyone.
Asking lots of questions, but not doing anything with the answers.

Making judgements about how you yourself would play as scum.

Defense based on an always being scummy or anti-town meta.
Pushing others to contribute opinions without contributing their own opinions.
Not finding anyone scummy.
Trying to avoid attention more than help find scum.
Thinking that posting their honest opinion will hurt them.
Coming up with bogus arguments for calling someone scum.

Aggressively defending themselves.

(Someone aggressively defending another is a better tell)
Being more worried about not being lynched than about finding scum.
Deliberately playing in a way that hurts the town.
Intentionally not being useful.
Claiming survivor.
Thinking X is being dumb town and staying off their wagon despite X's scumminess.
Faking a PR.
Encouraging the town to just lynch randomly.
Not taking a close look at anyone but one person.
OMGUS arguments.
Calling people scummy because they disagree with them.
Doing something scummy and then later trying to pass it off as a "joke."(Not sure on this one)

Lying.

Disbelieving an argument on a townie but jumping on the bandwagon anyway.
Softclaiming.
Attempting to stall their lynch by stating they have a case to post later.
Self-voting.(Self hammering, sure.)
Asking to be lynched/killed.(Seen VT do this. Sorry.)
Censoring their own posts.(Clarify please)

Stating will post later.

Claiming a non-town win condition.
Obviously stupid night action claim.

Expressing confusion.

Jester speculation.
Unprovoked softclaim.

Why me?

Changing role claim.(I thought of claiming tracker when I was cop in Matrix6 to fish a mafia Roleblocker. Nope)
Voting X for something while saying that one of the others voting X must be scum.
Claiming an unproveable role.

The list goes on.[/quote]
Yeah no. Try again.

[Gamma Emerald]

I probably missed some, too.

[eagerSnake]

Reads thus far:

The_Jester
Grendel
Manuel87

gerryoat
Square World
Gamma Emerald
eagerSnake

Huntress
VictorDeAngelo
CCC

Can you explain these reads? Some of them you have, but not all of them. Manuel, Jester, Victor, for example.

[House]

I probably missed some, too.

Stop helping him create noise.

[eagerSnake]

Your attempt to direct the game into a lynch on an easy target is not going to work.

How am I doing this?

[House]

Can you explain these reads?

Nope. I'm done talking to you.

My read is solid and I have no further use of our interaction.

[House]

The current deadline is 2 days, 20 hours, 51 minutes.

Votes need to consolidate.

I'm not moving off eager, so either join the wagon or lynch without me.

[eagerSnake]

Yeah no. Try again.

Actually they are all more likely to come from scum than town, with exceptions.

The ones you striked out:

1. Making judgements about how you yourself would play as scum. This is WIFOM. When you make judgements about how someone else would play as scum, that's scumhunting. When you make judgements about how you yourself would play as scum, that's WIFOM.

2. Aggressively defending themselves. An aggressive defense says that you're more worried about not being lynched than about finding scum.

3. Lying. Comes from scum more often than town. Town have exceptions for doing it, but usually they don't do it right and end up getting lynched for it. Scum have more motive to lie than town, usually.

4. Stating will post later. This is in reference to when they are close to being lynched but they state something like "Oh wait I have a awesome post I'm making but it will have to come later." This comes from scum more often than town, but town does it on occasion. It's stalling.

5. Expressing confusion. Expression confusion is scummy. Townies are normally confused at the start of the game, scum are more surprised when they're confused. If townies are normally confused at the start of the game, then

they will find that unremarkable

and not mention it. Whereas scum will find it unusual, and they'll want to emphasize it to seem more town, so they point it out.

6. Why me? This comes from scum more often than town. It falls into the 'more worried about getting lynched than finding scum' category.

[Gamma Emerald]

Thanks Snake. You're on my would lynch list, but that explanation helped you quite a bit.

[House]

Thanks Snake. You're on my would lynch list, but that explanation helped you quite a bit.

Lol.

[House]

Thanks Snake. You're on my would lynch list, but that explanation helped you quite a bit.

No it doesn't.

If you want genuine theory, don't trust a scumread.

[House]

Gamma, read this : http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... afia_Q%26A

[eagerSnake]

As for the one's you commented on:

Spoiler: Explained

1. Not doing anything pro-town.(Could be Village Idiot) Could be, but it's usually just scum. Even idiots can figure out how to express their thoughts in a way that is pro-town.

2. Doing something scummy and then later trying to pass it off as a "joke."(Not sure on this one) I've seen scum do something scummy and then try to pass it off as a "joke" multiple times. I hardly ever see townies do that.
Town Thought Process: "Hey, it would be really funny if I said I'm a cop as a joke here. Wait, someone might think I'm serious. I should put in a [joke] tag or something so no one will get confused."
Scum Thought Process: "Hey, it would be really funny if I said I'm a cop as a joke here. Wait, someone might think I'm serious. But that's good for me; if people believe it I can keep the claim, and if not I can pass it off as just a joke later."

3. Self-voting.(Self hammering, sure.) This one deserves it's own post. Getting yourself lynched as town cannot possibly help the town more than staying alive and trying to contribute would.
The latter is better because...
(a) If the town thinks you're scummy, you get lynched anyways, but you contributed more and more importantly you made the scum work harder to get you lynched, which gives the town extra information.
(b) If the town doesn't think you're scummy, you're much better off staying alive. Dying not only deprives the town of one pro-town voice, it also takes the scum one step closer to their win condition. Getting yourself lynched when you wouldn't have been otherwise is an "own goal."
(c) Even if you think you're going to be lynched, you can't be certain until the actual lynch, so you should keep playing to give the town a chance to come to its senses and decide not to lynch you.

Given the above, there are only three reasons someone could want to actually self-hammer:
(a) They are scum trying to cut off discussion or support a bus.
(b) They are a noob who doesn't know any better.
(c) They are a self-centered jerk who thinks that if the game isn't going the way they want, they should just take their ball and go home.

If someone asks to be lynched, there are a few possibilities:
1) They are scum. Lynching them is good for the town.
2) They are town.
- 2a) They have a protown reason for being lynched. Lynching them is good for the town.
- 2b) They don't have a protown reason for being lynched, and so are playing against their own win condition.

4. Asking to be lynched/killed.(Seen VT do this. Sorry.) See above.

5. Censoring their own posts.(Clarify please) "I was gonna do/say X but I thought it might look scummy, so I didn't do it." Intentionally trying to avoid scum tells as town usually just ends up making you look scummier. Usually, though, people trying to avoid scum tells (censoring their own posts) are just scum.

6. Changing role claim.(I thought of claiming tracker when I was cop in Matrix6 to fish a mafia Roleblocker. Nope) There are occasions that town do this as a gambit, like you did, but scum will do it more often if their claim ends up not fitting with the setup and they catch scrutiny for it. I've seen scum change their claim much more often than town, and I think it's horrible that people let them get away with it.

Obviously nothing is "only scum do X," but rather, "scum do X more often than town do."

[Gamma Emerald]

I'd like to add more to points 3 and 6.
@3: There's this role on EpicMafia called Oracle that reveals a persons role if the Oracle is killed. I've seen an Oracle get lynched intentionally Day 1, although since it was Daystart forum mafia, the role had to be modified to work Day 1.
@6: So the "changing claims" thing can only really happen in a closed setup. Okay.

[eagerSnake]

VOTE: Square World

@CCC, alas, it looks like we're lynching the lesser of the two evils today.

[eagerSnake]

@3: There's this role on EpicMafia called Oracle that reveals a persons role if the Oracle is killed. I've seen an Oracle get lynched intentionally Day 1, although since it was Daystart forum mafia, the role had to be modified to work Day 1.

See - 2a) They have a protown reason for being lynched. Lynching them is good for the town.

[eagerSnake]

@Mod: Anything from The_Jester? No posts in over 4 days.

[House]

I'd like to add more to points 3 and 6.
@3: There's this role on EpicMafia called Oracle that reveals a persons role if the Oracle is killed. I've seen an Oracle get lynched intentionally Day 1, although since it was Daystart forum mafia, the role had to be modified to work Day 1.
@6: So the "changing claims" thing can only really happen in a closed setup. Okay.

This is not EM.

Advice for EM is not relevant here.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'd like to add more to points 3 and 6.
@3: There's this role on EpicMafia called Oracle that reveals a persons role if the Oracle is killed. I've seen an Oracle get lynched intentionally Day 1, although since it was Daystart forum mafia, the role had to be modified to work Day 1.
@6: So the "changing claims" thing can only really happen in a closed setup. Okay.

This is not EM.

Advice for EM is not relevant here.

It was a proof of concept post.
Scumnotch +1 for House for that rather tasteless and pointless nitpick.

[House]

I'd like to add more to points 3 and 6.
@3: There's this role on EpicMafia called Oracle that reveals a persons role if the Oracle is killed. I've seen an Oracle get lynched intentionally Day 1, although since it was Daystart forum mafia, the role had to be modified to work Day 1.
@6: So the "changing claims" thing can only really happen in a closed setup. Okay.

This is not EM.

Advice for EM is not relevant here.

It was a proof of concept post.
Scumnotch +1 for House for that rather tasteless and pointless nitpick.

Wrong. Your irrelevant back and forth looks like scum theater.

[CCC]

...okay, having had a look at Manuel and eagerSnake's interactions over the last page or so, I think that eagerSnake's case against Manuel is better than the case I had against Gamma. Therefore:

VOTE: Manuel87

And what case would that be exactly?

Manuel is throwing suspicion on Square, but not voting or FOS'ing. That makes me suspect a Manuel/Square scum team is a possibility.

VOTE: Square World

You doubtcasted me by saying I "don't know an answer" to why you would cast shade on your partner, even though that question is apparently WIFOM, as I stated.

You've left yourself open to voting them later for town-credit, while at the same time chainsaw-defending him, and also fence-sitting the slot.

Why would i throw shade on my buddy in that situation?

So you could say exactly this?

If Square's town: You would cast-shade on Square if he's town because that leaves yourself open to lynching him if you have to. You would chainsaw-defend him to buddy him because if you don't have to be a part of lynching him you could say "I was defending him."

If Square's scum: You would also cast-shade on Square if he's your buddy because that leaves yourself open to lynching him if you have to for town-credit. You would chainsaw-defend him to keep him from being lynched.

Also, I notice that Manuel seems to re-actively post only when someone mentions him, instead of pro-actively posting. Nearly 1/3 of his posts in this game are on this page, after I pointed out his association with Square. I'd say at least 2/3 of his posts if not more are similarly reactive. So I ask:

How much does he seem to care about finding scum?
How much does he seem to care about not getting lynched?
My answers are "barely if at all" and "quite a lot", respectively.

--------------

In summary: Your interaction with Square World looks a little scummy. Your eagerness to leap to your own defense, compared with your low scumhunting activity throughout the game, suggest that you're not really all that interested in doing any actual scumhunting yourself, beyon the minimum to look Townish.

It's not by any means definitive, but it's the best case I've yet seen this game.

[CCC]

I read some of 1727. CCC’s play there isn’t as much like his play here as I thought it’d be. He had the awkward interactions I was expecting, but he mathed a lot harder there and referenced a lot more mafia theory behind his votes and reasoning. He maintained more of a voice there too imo. I don’t see as much of that here. He doesn’t seem nearly as interested in catching scum. Typically players that use analytical means of finding scum make it apparent that their really into the game even if their methods are questionable. CCC hasn’t done much statistical break downs on players this game like he had in 1727. Many of his posts this game are him defending himself, and while he had some early game passive scum hunting going on he hasn’t been hunting lately. The best he has done was dropping an occasional reads list. I’m bothered that CCC referenced Arctic, which is a lot more reflective of this game here then 1727, 1727 showed me that CCC, sans his speech, isn’t a bad player.

So CCC referencing the lesser of his two games first and foremost as what to meta him by, and the other as an afterthought is… not what I was hoping to find. I was really wanting CCC to be town, but I’m not nearly as good for town!CCC as I was prior to reading more into his games.

1727 taught me, firstly, that the error bars on information day one are so large as to make most calculations unreliable. I was also told that mathing it up to that degree apparently made me look scummy, and that was why I was lynched day one in that game... now you're telling me that

not

mathing it up

also

looks scummy?

So, yes, I've been deliberately toning down the day one math analysis since 1727.