Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[Guardian]

My reasoning behind Skruffs suspicion are that multiple times in the game Skruffs has purported logic that has made me want to bang my head against the wall. He has me thinking he's townlike, and then he goes and says some crazy anti-town/unbelievable stuff, and I get suspicious of him again. If my life depended upon it, I could definitely find a couple of instances of this -- but it doesn't, and I'm really not un-busy enough to completely re-read this game.

I anticipate being able to re-read this game once more in any reasonable foreseeable future, and I'd love to do that after we catch another scum. I feel everyone is having that trouble -- I hate to, but I agree with Tony -- we're at a point in the game where we just need to make decisions -- there is SO much freaking content -- piling more on has diminishing marginal utility.

[Skruffs]

And everytime I ask you why you think I am suspicious, you balk.
Then you back off.
Then a few pages longer I'm back to being way high up on your suspicion list.

[Simenon]

Vote Count

VitaminR (1)- Skruffs
TonyMoonshine (1)- Guardian

[Thok]

I'm also curious where you think Tony has expressed suspicions of VitR.

Hey, don't dodge a question by deflecting pressure my way.

What question do you think I am dodging?

[Skruffs]

I can't vote VitaminR more than once, unfortunately.

[Guardian]

Also, can you sum up in one post, or refer to where you did so, your argument for VitaminR scum? I can see how he possibly isn't cleared, but what in your opinion makes him scum?

SKRUFFS?

[TonyMoonshine]

I'm also curious where you think Tony has expressed suspicions of VitR.

Hey, don't dodge a question by deflecting pressure my way.

What question do you think I am dodging?

I should have wrote...Don't dodge pressure by deflecting it my way.

[TonyMoonshine]

If you have expressed suspicions of Vitr, show post #'s.

[TonyMoonshine]

Thok, why again did you vote and unvote Guardian twice? Both times derailing his wagon?

[Thok]

I should have wrote...Don't dodge pressure by deflecting it my way.

Guardian made a factually incorrect statement about me and what I believed to be an incorrect statement about you, both regarding our suspicions of VitaminR. Am I supposed to let that pass by without comment?

Moreover, you act as if it was clear that I was trying to put pressure on you (I claim it's not obvious, as it's unclear that not being suspicious of VitR is a sign of being scum), and that putting pressure on you is a scummy thing. If you dislike being pressured, then you should defend yourself from the accusations, rather than attack the accuser for putting pressure on you.

Do you think VitR is likely to be scum? If not, why are you worried about my statement?

If you have expressed suspicions of Vitr, show post #'s.

Are you even bothering to read the game?

Posts that suggest me being suspicious of VitR include 1807, 1821, and 1834. I also said in post 1851 that I might have voted VitR at 2-2 at the deadline.

Thok, why again did you vote and unvote Guardian twice? Both times derailing his wagon?

I've changed my mind about what I think about Guardian's actions on several occasions. It's called second-guessing yourself. I also changed my mind about what I felt about MOStafa/Adel before than role got lynched. Does that make me scummy also? Guardian voted you and then unvoted you when you were at lynch -1. Does that make the scum pair you/Guardian?

Why do you consider this scummy? Moreover if you think Guardian is scummy, why aren't you looking at the people who never voted Guardian and activey defended him, rather than the people who voted Guardian then changed their mind? If you think Guardian and I are scummy, why aren't you trying to gather more evidence on either of us and why aren't you trying to convince people to change their minds.

Seriously, why should we think you are protown Tony? You give your opinion on next to nothing, you don't even try to look over posts to check statements but make vague threats of the form "give me evidence or I won't believe you". And it's not like your voting record is particularly good; you weren't on either scum lynch, and you hammered MOStafa/Adel and have threatened to hammer Guardian.

[TonyMoonshine]

Posts that suggest me being suspicious of VitR include 1807, 1821, and 1834. I also said in post 1851 that I might have voted VitR at 2-2 at the deadline.

You pulled me into the conversation when all you had to do was provide post #'s and it would have settled it. If anyone is not reading the game it's Guardian for making the false statment in the first place.

Yes, I think it's very scummy regarding your voting record with Guardian. Both times it was early in the day and both times Guardian got
off the hook because of you. Had you not changed your mind (twice) Guardian would probably be lynched and IH would most likely be alive. I don't know for sure Guardian is scum, but we know for sure what IH was.

Why do you think Guardian is town? At least twice he has slipped and seemed to be caught red handed only to somehow get out of it. How is Guardian's voting record? Since you bring mine up. I bet his is not good.

Really... What have you done?

The bottom lin is you talk a big game but haven't helped the town.

[Thok]

Posts that suggest me being suspicious of VitR include 1807, 1821, and 1834. I also said in post 1851 that I might have voted VitR at 2-2 at the deadline.

You pulled me into the conversation when all you had to do was provide post #'s and it would have settled it. If anyone is not reading the game it's Guardian for making the false statment in the first place.

Guardian specifically said that everybody but me was suspicious of VitaminR. It was unclear why Guardian felt you were suspicious of VitaminR. It is possible that Guardian made a misstatement because he is scum. Why shouldn't I ask him about that to probe for his intentions in making his statement? Guardian is the person who implicitly brought you into the discussion, not me.

You've claimed trying to stay alive is scummy. So why are you completely ignoring the effects my statement has on Guardian and only focusing on what they do to you?

Yes, I think it's very scummy regarding your voting record with Guardian. Both times it was early in the day and both times Guardian got
off the hook because of you. Had you not changed your mind (twice) Guardian would probably be lynched and IH would most likely be alive. I don't know for sure Guardian is scum, but we know for sure what IH was.

You've ignored my question-why is it my fault for Guardian not being lynched? VitR has been heavily defending him (see any post in the last two days). Elias has decided that the Guardian meta leads to him being town. Skruffs was more focused on Setael and the VitaminR. So the lack of Guardian lynch is my fault? Even assuming I didn't unvote, where do you think the other votes for Guardian were coming from?

Heck, if you want Guardian to be lynched, why aren't you spending more time explaining why Guardian is scum? Your vote isn't your only weapon; if you actually want Guardian lynched, you need to explain why and convince others.

And at least one time we didn't lynch Guardian, it eventually lead to Setaelscum being lynched. So I'm not apologizing for that.

Why do you think Guardian is town? At least twice he has slipped and seemed to be caught red handed only to somehow get out of it. How is Guardian's voting record? Since you bring mine up. I bet his is not good.

No, his voting record is not (although, if you put an iota of effort into the game you could have said this yourself). There's a nontrivial chance you are both scum. There is some evidence for that (your behavior towards Guardian, and also it weakly explains Guardian-Setael move to IH from you the day we lynched Setael, although in Guardian's case that can also be explained by his IH fetish.)

Really... What have you done?

The bottom lin is you talk a big game but haven't helped the town.

I'm probably more responsible for Omanus/Setael being dead then anybody else; my big case on Omanus was what lead VitR to vote her, the fact that she focused an attack on me early on without reading the thread is what lead Guardian to vote her, and I ended up putting the fourth vote on her.

I also changed my mind to try to get Oman lynched over MOS at the end of day 4.

-----------------------

Mod

, VitaminR hasn't posted in the thread in a while. Can we have a prod on him?

[Skruffs]

Yes Guardian?

Point A) VitaminR busses. He came into the game immediately attacking John, who turned out to be scum. He had no problem shifting the vote away from John, repeatedly, though moving it back when it seemed momentum went that way. Similarly with Oman - he did not quite start the wagon on Oman/Setael, but he slipped onto it.

Point B) Day Five. Avoided the end-situation entirely, when Setael was trapped in a conundrum. VitaminR was already voting Setael, but he intentionally didn't post in the thread. Why? He's had no trouble posting in the thread in tight situations before. He followed me onto the Oman wagon from day four, without saying much about it (And while you were trying to pull attention away from it) and just stuck to it.

unvote vote Setael

IH would have been 100x better. And still IS 100x better.

FOS: VitaminR

. If you didn't happen to check in that is really unfortunate.... but it makes me think you are full of it.

To be honest, I did check the thread, but I chickened out (I really was torn) and figured I'd have time to check in again anyway before the deadline.

Sidenote: Guardian claims in this post that a townie lynch would have been 100x better than a KNOWN SCUM lynch.

Point C) Said mustafa was town early on, but changed his mind when the wagon went on him.

Point D) Followed you on an IH wagon although it made less sense for IH to be scum than for you the next day.


I could make a lot more, but I guess I'm depressed that you are *just now* beginning to look at other players in the game. You can't hide behind IH anymore.
Remember when you said
"I don't see much correlation between Setael's alignment and IH's. " and then voted IH anyways? or

"John, finally, is where the plan hinges. If John is scum, then VitR is in my eyes likely scum, and if Vitr is scum then IH is likely to be. They pointed out/realized that the scum shifted the wagon, and are now imo bussing their companion. John's play was also scummy in and of itself in certain aspects. "


I can understand why you would be nervous about bussing VITR. You've worked so hard to pull attention off of him.

[Simenon]

Mod, VitaminR hasn't posted in the thread in a while. Can we have a prod on him?

I've been looking for a replacement

[Guardian]

I think you're scum because you quote one of the first posts I made in this game when I

obviously

changed my mind later. This is one of those instances I described where I am like, "WTF how could Skruffs make that post as town??"

[Elias_the_thief]

Mod, VitaminR hasn't posted in the thread in a while. Can we have a prod on him?

I've been looking for a replacement

I feel sorry for you, and for the rest of us. Finding a replacement for a game this long will be tough to say the least.

Anyways, thanks to skruffs for laying out those points. Please, if you have more, by all means lay them out. I think Vit is our best bet, and if you post more points, then I'm sure the rest of the town will see that. I'll try to do the same, but I really dont have much time for this game.

[Skruffs]

Hmm.
Guardian

"If John is scum, than VitR is, and if he is, IH is."
*skips VitR*
VOTE IH!!!! KILL HIM!!!

(later)

"I think we should have VitR, me, Elias, and Romanus as a final four.
Yes I know I think he's scum but others think he is town."

I understand why you wouldn't want VitaminR to be lynched. Your main goal is to stay alive, and if VitaminR is lynched and turns up scum, this looks horrible for you.


Why don't you post your own, personal, thoughts on him, Guardian?

[Elias_the_thief]

Skruffs: chaos is reigning in the survivor thread. you should fix this.

[Guardian]

Skruffs, tbh, I don't even know anymore. I'm not free enough to read the thread, and (obviously) everyone keeps aruging how they aren't scummy and someone else should be.

I think you and Tony are both scummier, but almost everyone seems so sure about VitaminR. I could see a Tony-VitaminR pairing, maybe.

Skruffs, what are you going to say if he turns up town? You've been pushing him almost like I've been pushing IH .

[Elias_the_thief]

um...no. What you did with IH was just insanity.

[Guardian]

Skruffs has been single mindedly pushing VitaminR for 3/4 days with sureness that he is scum. Certainly there is some level of parallel.

[Skruffs]

3/4 days?
Wrong, GUardian.


I pushed OMAN for two days, until Setael was lynched.
Setael was scum.

Now I am pushing VitaminR.


You pushed IH singlemindedly since day one.

I wouldn't really say it's a comparison.

But if it makes you happy, I can change my vote to you?

[Skruffs]

That's Day 6 and Day 7, not 3-4 days.

[Skruffs]

Also, re: everyone being sure of VitaminR:

Thok - Pretty suspicious
You - Against it. Completely.
Elias - Thinks VitaminR is the best bet
VitaminR - Seems pretty nonphazed by it himself.
TOny - Focussing on you, skeptical of Thok's supposed suspicion of VitaminR


My base reasoning, that started the suspicion of "If Oman is scum, VitaminR is" was due to Oman's and later Setael's aggression towards me for reasons that SHOULD have also been applied to VitaminR but WEREN'T. I called Oman out on this and he *LEFT THE GAME*.... He didn't leave the site, he is still QUITE Active. However, several times he said how pro-town he thought VitR was.

Setael replaces:

You must have missed the whole john/yb thing. John got 'called out' by vitamin r, first thing day one, some discussion was had about it, and last minute the wagon shifted to occult. I saw the shift and realized that scum was pushing it. Occult got lynched anyways, so the next day i started up a new wagon on john, and it went through.

I agree with you that this is why everyone else has you on their pro-Town list. Unfortunately for you, you weren’t the one who started that John wagon – it was Vitr, as you said. Sure, after Occult was lynched you could’ve hoped the John wagon would go away but I think you knew that wasn’t likely. I think you’re smart enough to know it was inevitable that someone would bring up the John wagon again. It’s just good play for a mafia member to be the one that brings it back up, knowing someone else would’ve anyway. It’s a good way to look pro-Town. And it worked.

This is a large part of why I think that if you are scum, IH is town. It was enough to bus John, and it earned you a fairly solid Town reputation. So why bus IH as well, if IH was mafia? I find it more likely that you thought Guardian and Vitr were going to be successful in convincing the Town to lynch IH, so you supported it just enough to not look suspicious (you kind of had to since you had agreed that if John came up scum, IH was scum with him) but not enough to really vote convincingly and get IH lynched, because you knew he’d come up Town. It makes sense that you wouldn’t want people to be able to look back and find really strong support for his wagon. That’s possibly a reason for all the vote hopping, and never really sticking to your guns on IH.

Knowing what we know now, how does this look to you?

[Guardian]

unvote vote VitaminR