Mini Normal 1829 - Game Over

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Frame kills are incredibly unlikely, but I guess picking a kill that frames you is plausible, considering that you were one of the lynches on the table at the beginning of the day. I really think it's more of a case of IaI being an integral part of the town if his townreads are correct, though. Is there anything in IaI's ISO that suggests he has a PR?

I did forget about JJD's townread of Gerry... His reasoning at least makes sense, but...

JarJar, do you still townread Gerry? Let's talk a bit more about that read.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Thor, can you weigh in on the Blitz lynch? That's pretty much what I'm waiting for.

[Thor665]

Thor, why do you like Blitz's claim better than Shadow's? Or am I misreading your posts

I'm not aware that I'm voting either of them.

So I'm wondering why you choose to disbelieve Blitz's claim, but apparently find Shadow's claim perfectly fine?

I don't?

So, since the claims don't matter, what makes Blitz scummier than Shadow?

For starters, everyone voting blitz right now is town
Wagon is stalling because scum are trying to derail

^ that was the best way to word it, the way i was going to say it risked this town's unity

Thor, can you weigh in on the Blitz lynch? That's pretty much what I'm waiting for.

I am currently uninterested in the Blitz wagon, so if you want a hammer you'll be forced to clue me into the brilliance.
About the only thing bugging me about that slot is if it is a Titus alt, which I think people were saying(?) Other than that, nothing.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I wasn't talking about whoever you were voting – you seem to believe that Nero should find Shadow's claim more suspicious than Blitz's when I believe the opposite is true.

Blitz is in fact a Titus alt. If that makes you less inclined to hammer, then I think Karnos is a perfectly fine alternative. We can have Shadow investigate Blitz and have Blitz protect Shadow to confirm the doctor claim if we go that route. I am very confident (like an 8 out of 10 in confidence) that the scumteam is Blitz/Karnos/Gerry, so really the order they are lynched isn't an issue, but I would personally want to lynch the strongest player of that team first.

Case incoming, I need to get on a computer for this.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I think that this town was too focused on the Transcend/Maria dynamic (which I believe is most likely T+T) and neglected to pressure some of the lurkier and scummier slots. It's obviously too late to do any of that, so if I end up getting lynched today, all I ask is that you put Maria and Kraska on the back burner for now and try to focus more on {Elyse, Shadow, Gerry, Karnos} because me having nullreads at EoD1 and page 43 is awful and absolutely unacceptable.

When I entered the game, the first thing I noticed is that the town was divided and focusing on lynching town. Kraska, Maria, and I were all scumread by most players, yet from my POV, that's two confirmed townies (now at least) and my strongest townread. Thus, my instinctual solution to this issue is to form a townbloc, and if that doesn't work, lynch myself or Maria in hopes of getting the town to pay attention elsewhere.

Elyse (L-3) :

kraska77, I Am Innocent, gigabyteTroubadour

, gerryoat.

This is the formation of one. IaI and Kraska were players that I felt had the most accurate view of the gamestate upon me replacing in, so getting them to work together despite the fact that IaI scumread Kraska was my goal. Ignore Gerry for now. If there's daytalk, he probably was told to vote there to discredit the wagon. And if not, that's probably what he planned to do anyway as scum.

Let's also take a look at a more relevant votecount:

Blitzkrieg (L-1) : kraska77, JarJarDrinks, gigabyteTroubadour, Nero Cain, Elyse.

Seeing a wagon like this was probably impossible while Transcend was still in the game. JJD, Elyse, and Nero scumread Kraska and myself initially, and Kraska and I scumread Elyse, but now we're working together. And what is the cause of that? Me, of course, trying to get this town to stop scumreading the bait and focus on the slots that were coasting yesterday! By replacing in, I've effectively changed the momentum of this game and now we're lynching scum, because otherwise I would think that today's lynch would either be Transcend (if I didn't replace in), Maria (if Transcend or I were lynched yesterday), or Kraska, all mislynches.

Anyway, what seems to be happening is that Blitz's choice in scumreads are conveniently trying to disrupt attempts at town working together. Since I now know for sure that both of the mason fakeclaimers are town, disrupting and discrediting the Maria/Transcend bloc (even if they end up being wrong about their reads) is critical for any possible scumteam fmpov. If there was no valid push on them early D1 and if other town slots like Kraska, IaI, and yourself started townreading them, then eventually town unifies and the scumteam will be caught much easier. Thankfully for the scumteam, Maria and Transcend are not the strongest players and throwing shade at them is relatively easy. Hell, I dropped my townlean on Maria pretty quickly and I know Kraska did too.

Now that it's D2, we lost IaI. Why does a team with Blitzkrieg in it want to kill IaI, especially because he was townreading her? The answer is quite simple: IaI was against both the Maria lynch (pushing a counter-wagon at least) and my own at the end of D1, and was also part of the townbloc I was attempting to form. Him having the right opinion of the gamestate (in terms of townreads, which I think are more important), practically being unlynchable, and being a stronger player than Kraska made him a priority night kill. I'm still lynchable, so if the scumteam's goal is to dismantle the townbloc, then it's easier for me to be lynched and a stronger player be nightkilled.

---

Essentially, my argument is that Blitz is scum because she noticed that I formed a relatively powerful townbloc and my lynch is a last-ditch effort to stop it. The IaI kill's purpose was to weaken that townbloc, because if she had killed, say, you, then this townbloc would have formed much faster and probably have been a bigger threat. I wanted you to weigh in on the Elyse wagon more directly yesterday because I townread you pretty strongly and thus would want you in this bloc. Now, I'm trying again with the Blitz wagon.

If you'd rather lynch Karnos, then I have no issue with that because the result will effectively be the same. Do you disagree with the scumteam of Blitz/Gerry/Karnos? If so, I would like to know where your head is.

[MichelSableheart]

Michel and Blitz (and anyone scumreading me for that matter), what scumteam with me in it kills IaI? Especially because Blitz believes that my ""partners"" refuse to bus me, I don't really understand the benefit of picking a nightkill that makes it easier for me to get lynched. Is there someone else in a theoretical team with me that's worth more than me, or a more nuanced reason to kill IaI that I'm not getting?

Well, who would be the alternative for the scum nightkill? Was there anyone who was both attacking you and generally considered town? As far as I can see, your scumteam would have to give up significant mislynch potential if they wanted to take out one of your attackers.

I'm particularly disliking Nero's play here. Both with the Elyse wagon day 1, and the shadow and blitz wagons today, he seemed more interested in getting them to claim then in actually getting a lynch.

Sometimes I wonder if you actually understand what you post or if you are just randomly saying things. Like there was a day left on day 1. Its customary to have the person claim before they get lynched. Getting Elyse to claim 24 hours ahead of deadline gave us the room to lynch her or not and decide what we wanted to do. Are you upset you are not getting the mislynch you wanted?

I wanted Shadow lynched. I wanted Blitz lynched. Saying that I only wanted their claims is an unbased opinion. The kicker here, is that he doesn't believe Shadows claim but thinks I'm scummy for outting him, scum talking out of both sides of thier mouth?

Frankly, the only reason why you would want someone to claim when they're at L-1, is if you would lynch them unless they have a very strong powerrole.

Given the speed at which the Elyse wagon disappeared after a VT claim, I would argue that the willingness to lynch wasn't there in the first place, and any townie reaction would have dispersed the wagon. Which means there was no need whatsoever for the claim you were pressing.

Something similar happened with the Shadow claim. Vanilla cop gives town virtually no information whatsoever. It allows goons to hide behind a VT claim, and it risks outing powerroles. It's probably the weakest of the investigative roles. Yet again, after that claim, everyone unvotes.

Yet when there actually is a strong powerrole claimed in Blitz' doctor, the wagon doesn't budge.

Given all that, what's the point for town for asking for those claims? If the claim has no relation to whether the player gets lynched or not, then there's no point asking for claims in the first place. Better to simply keep them secret and not leak information to scum.

[...]

<Translated by Thor>
Blitz focusing so heavily on the Mason claims is scummy (please ignore that Micheal did the exact same thing)
But Blitz isn't scummy (then why explain how she's scummy?)

I really dislike Nero's play and will discuss how it is scummy for a paragraph.

That said, I want to lynch Giga off the mason logic still.
</translation>

I think you're misreading what I'm saying about Blitz. I don't think it's scummy that she's exclusively focussing on the fakeclaimed masons. It does make it more difficult to know her thoughts on other players, but it's not more likely to come from scum then from town.

So why mention it? Simple. I wanted to see if I could figure out what the players on the wagon were seeing. In that context, it's important to note that she doesn't have many interactions that I can base my opinion on. It's also important to note that the interactions that are there are understandable from my point of view. Both of which I do in my post.

I'm particularly disliking Nero's play here. Both with the Elyse wagon day 1, and the shadow and blitz wagons today, he seemed more interested in getting them to claim then in actually getting a lynch. It's in large part due to him that there are two powerroles out in the open now. That's not scumhunting, that's powerrole hunting, and more likely to come from scum then from town. Add the way he was smearing me day 1, and I would be happy to see him lynched.

What a coincidence...you start calling Nero scum just as the "Nero is scum" sentiment starts flying about the place

You do realize I was already mentioning these points at the end of yesterday? That other players are starting to express suspicions of Nero when I finally make the time to write down my thoughts on my biggest suspects is indeed coincidental.

Similarly, note that I was actually trying to defend blitz, even if it appearantly wasn't perceived that way. Any of the other four players mentioned in my post are better lynches then her, with a preference of a Giga lynch over Nero over shadow/karnos, with noone else on the table unless I hear a very convincing case.

I'm particularly disliking Nero's play here. Both with the Elyse wagon day 1, and the shadow and blitz wagons today, he seemed more interested in getting them to claim then in actually getting a lynch. It's in large part due to him that there are two powerroles out in the open now. That's not scumhunting, that's powerrole hunting, and more likely to come from scum then from town. Add the way he was smearing me day 1, and I would be happy to see him lynched.

What a coincidence...you start calling Nero scum just as the "Nero is scum" sentiment starts flying about the place

TBF, I just think the guy is derpy. Him being scum would help explain why he found Blitz' naked vote scummier than the other naked votes; distancing. But I mean there's so much reasonable doubt in Shadow, Gerry, Karnos.

Again, I did not find Blitz naked voted scummier. That terminology was introduced by you in post #15. I arbitrarily chose Blitz because she was the first to vote without encouraging discussion in some way.

preview edit: have not yet read Giga's latest post.

[Nero Cain]

Frankly, the only reason why you would want someone to claim when they're at L-1, is if you would lynch them unless they have a very strong powerrole.

Given the speed at which the Elyse wagon disappeared after a VT claim, I would argue that the willingness to lynch wasn't there in the first place, and any townie reaction would have dispersed the wagon. Which means there was no need whatsoever for the claim you were pressing.

Something similar happened with the Shadow claim. Vanilla cop gives town virtually no information whatsoever. It allows goons to hide behind a VT claim, and it risks outing powerroles. It's probably the weakest of the investigative roles. Yet again, after that claim, everyone unvotes.

Yet when there actually is a strong powerrole claimed in Blitz' doctor, the wagon doesn't budge.

Given all that, what's the point for town for asking for those claims? If the claim has no relation to whether the player gets lynched or not, then there's no point asking for claims in the first place. Better to simply keep them secret and not leak information to scum.

I agree that I never really wanted an Elyse lynch in the first place. I wanted Shadow and Elyse was a big ole' roadblock. Having Elyse hurry up and claim so there was time to decide what we wanted to do is the correct play there. I'm not really seeing why you are getting upset that Elyse claimed and others thought her reaction was town. I assume you think it was a town reaction, so I'm not sure why you think I'm scummy for averting a mislynch. Cog dis much?

I'm also only one person with one vote and I can't push through a wagon by myself so....thats why the Shadow wagon is not a thing right now and I'm not sure why I should care wich scum read gets lynched.

[Nero Cain]

Nero, what do you think about JJD ?

I think he's POE town. There was a time when I thought he was whiteknighting scum b/c Michel has terrible posts and he was saying they were good but I think there are scummier slots than him.

[Nero Cain]

I think Thor makes a ton of sense as a Blitz buddy that won't bus her.

[Nero Cain]

a Thor/Blitz team would mean the last scum is in

Shadow_step
gerryoat
karnos
MichelSableheart

[gigabyteTroubadour]

a Thor/Blitz team would mean the last scum is in

Shadow_step
gerryoat
karnos
MichelSableheart

this i agree with

but gerry/karnos/blitz seems to make more sense to me at least. Talk to me about scum!Thor?

[Nero Cain]

Thor is trying to get me to vote Shadow over Blitz when I, as town, have no reason to vote one scum read over the other.

[Nero Cain]

About the only thing bugging me about that slot is if it is a Titus alt, which I think people were saying(?) Other than that, nothing.

this also gave me an odd feeling, idk why.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Well, who would be the alternative for the scum nightkill? Was there anyone who was both attacking you and generally considered town? As far as I can see, your scumteam would have to give up significant mislynch potential if they wanted to take out one of your attackers.

Probably Elyse or you in all honesty, I don't really see the push against you as a viable one (making you difficult to lynch), and Elyse is now well-townread and I honestly wasn't expecting her to join the wagon I was pushing.

The IaI kill just seems completely illogical fmpov since I was intending to implicitly push a townbloc with him, but it's not like that was completely obvious until I outright said it.

On Thor, the fact that he's constantly pushing vanity wagons that are still viable do worry me, but I was strongly townreading his D1. I like your points too. Idk, I think it might actually be a good push but I want him to respond to my case vs. Blitz. Before being sure about that.

[gerryoat]

I'm not hammering Blitz lol. He seems townish to me. I also will not vote who giga is voting, as I think he's scum. Mostly looking back on what Transcend did. I think he tried to buddy town by protecting Maria with the mason claim.

[kraska77]

I'm not hammering Blitz lol. He seems townish to me. I also will not vote who giga is voting, as I think he's scum. Mostly looking back on what Transcend did. I think he tried to buddy town by protecting Maria with the mason claim.

Didn't you think Maria is scum? and were one of many who advocated that lynch or didn't fight it? Why couldn't transcends actions reflect a town motivation of wanting to protect his townread? Did you miss the part were he retracted his claim after being threatened with blacklisting? Why would scumtranscend who's using this gambit to his win condition be afraid of that

[Elyse]

The fact that Blitz hasn't said who she protected yet makes me confident that she's scum.

And gerry's 1689 is terrible. "I'm not hammering Blitz cause she's townish" Are you kidding me?

Blitz/gerry/{karnos, Thor, Shadow} is the team.

[gerryoat]

I'm not hammering Blitz lol. He seems townish to me. I also will not vote who giga is voting, as I think he's scum. Mostly looking back on what Transcend did. I think he tried to buddy town by protecting Maria with the mason claim.

Didn't you think Maria is scum? and were one of many who advocated that lynch or didn't fight it? Why couldn't transcends actions reflect a town motivation of wanting to protect his townread? Did you miss the part were he retracted his claim after being threatened with blacklisting? Why would scumtranscend who's using this gambit to his win condition be afraid of that

Yes, I thought one of them was scum. I thought Maria was scum cause she had an awful reason for fosing me. Not my fault she had a bad reason

[karnos]

giga is scum, nero is scum, shadow *might* be scum getting bused.

There seems to be some weird idea that scum wouldn't dare bus, when it's absolutely a viable play in this game.

There also seems to be some absurd push to lynch when we still have nearly 4 days left to work with. I don't have a lot of time most weekends, and I was doing an application for an apartment over this weekend so I have been even busier than usual. I'll probably catch up tomorrow, but whether I do or not the town players on the wagon should slot the hell down instead of rushing to a lynch with little thought.

[karnos]

'slow' the hell down. slot? I don't even know how I typed that.

[kraska77]

I'm not hammering Blitz lol. He seems townish to me. I also will not vote who giga is voting, as I think he's scum. Mostly looking back on what Transcend did. I think he tried to buddy town by protecting Maria with the mason claim.

Didn't you think Maria is scum? and were one of many who advocated that lynch or didn't fight it? Why couldn't transcends actions reflect a town motivation of wanting to protect his townread? Did you miss the part were he retracted his claim after being threatened with blacklisting? Why would scumtranscend who's using this gambit to his win condition be afraid of that

Yes, I thought one of them was scum. I thought Maria was scum cause she had an awful reason for fosing me. Not my fault she had a bad reason

Why couldn't transcends actions reflect a town motivation of wanting to protect his townread? Did you miss the part were he retracted his claim after being threatened with blacklisting? Why would scumtranscend who's using this gambit to his win condition be afraid of that

[Blitzkrieg]

The fact that Blitz hasn't said who she protected yet makes me confident that she's scum.

And gerry's 1689 is terrible. "I'm not hammering Blitz cause she's townish" Are you kidding me?

Blitz/gerry/{karnos, Thor, Shadow} is the team.

Why should I? Outing who I protected just gives scum information about who I protect.

Your attack on Gerry is also bad. You're professing a scumread solely based on him not doing what you want.

[Blitzkrieg]

I'm not hammering Blitz lol. He seems townish to me. I also will not vote who giga is voting, as I think he's scum. Mostly looking back on what Transcend did. I think he tried to buddy town by protecting Maria with the mason claim.

Didn't you think Maria is scum? and were one of many who advocated that lynch or didn't fight it? Why couldn't transcends actions reflect a town motivation of wanting to protect his townread? Did you miss the part were he retracted his claim after being threatened with blacklisting? Why would scumtranscend who's using this gambit to his win condition be afraid of that

Yes, I thought one of them was scum. I thought Maria was scum cause she had an awful reason for fosing me. Not my fault she had a bad reason

Why couldn't transcends actions reflect a town motivation of wanting to protect his townread? Did you miss the part were he retracted his claim after being threatened with blacklisting? Why would scumtranscend who's using this gambit to his win condition be afraid of that

Scum or town can both fear blacklisting. When those threats come out, it indicates a lack of enjoyment.

[Blitzkrieg]

Thor is trying to get me to vote Shadow over Blitz when I, as town, have no reason to vote one scum read over the other.

Yes, you do. Mislynch me has fatal consequences. Like we lose levels.

[Blitzkrieg]

Wait lol did u just call urself annoying pr haha :p

People get annoyed by me a lot because I do not sugarcoat to save egos when town.