STEVEN UNIVERSE 2 - GAME OVER

[grapes]

What is questioning shitty townreads and bringing up points that involve you being scum if not pushing?

[Reasonably Rational]

It only came up at all because I don't recall playing with you in any other game, so there's not much shared history to discuss. And sure ... we messed up the last day ... but that day never happens if you don't make the terrible play you made.

You lynched a cop clear over obvious scum.

Because of strict, laughably bad setup spec.

Coversation is over.

Godfather is a thing. Mastin made the same assumption we did (That scum wouldn't be given knowledge of who Steven was). But again ... that final day never happens if you didn't decide that you were superior to us and make a horrible play to spite us. You were a claimed miller and needed to be lynched and up to that point, all of our work had been correct (including about fuzzy, who if alive would have been super beneficial, btw). We never would have had to choose between whether we thought there was a godfather or not (SCTH was extremely anti-town by play, going so far as to refuse to ally with people and give useful bonuses to town) and whether scum would have been given a perma-alliance with Steven one day before scum could strongman kill steven.

Our "laughably bad" play got the town to 100% win probability. If you had simply accepted that you had to be lynched because your utility was spent and you were a miller, the game ends in a town win every time and we never end up in a final day in the first place.

It's a PROCESS Grapes. What we do is time consuming but it works considerably more often than it doesn't work. Also, one of the things you are conveniently leaving out is that we made a reasonable assumption that we could be roleblocked forever if scum knew who we were, because we counted as human and gem, and flipped scum could have roleblocked us forever. After the game, Varsoon clarified that they could NOT have done it to us, and that's part of the reason both Cerb and I ask tons of questions about roles and interactions now. We made a very reasonable assumption based upon the fact that it made no sense for scum to be given our identity when they had a strongman kill that came before we could trigger IC

AND

the ability to just roleblock us forever (when we had the ability to bodyguard and not die doing it). 99.9% of players on the site would have made the same assumption we did with that information.

So again ... what I'm trying to say to you is this: You play differently than we do. That's fine. You view us as inferior and insult us. That's not cool. You can point to that last day and say we messed it up all you want, but town would never have gotten to 100% win probability without our work and effort (which should tell you to at least be open to seeing how our process plays out, especially when you KNOW there are things you don't know), and town would never have gone back below 100% win probability if not for your decision to value your play style over ours. We were right about fuzzy and you not only cost us the mislynch that we needed to maintain 100% win probability, but you also cost us Fuzzy's utility since scum would have been forced to kill her.

And there was no reason to prefer Xtoxm as scum over Mastin, when it came down to it. There was two binary choices in that final day. If we decided that it was not probable scum would be given our identity just in time to be able to kill us before we could IC or just RB us endlessly, then we would lynch SCTH, who had been extremely anti-town in his play. A cop clear isn't a clear if the person is a godfather. If we decided it was probable that scum would be given our identity in the way they were, then it was between Xtoxm and Mastin, and Mastin had tried to save both Titus and Sonic, while Xtoxm did a very good job avoiding looking scummy all game long. By your approach to the game, we should have lynched Mastin on the last day and still lost anyway.

But all of that is beside the point:

I get that you think our playstyle is bad, despite evidence to the contrary. I'm asking you to set that aside and give us a chance to do our thing, instead of letting your bias result in you just dismissing everything we do that doesn't fit your confbias (or your goal to get us mislynched before we give town a cop usage, if you are scum). The more you refuse to engage honestly with us and focus on keeping a dumb fight going, the more I am asking myself why you seem to care more about keeping the noise going than anything else.

pushing someone as scum = disrespecting their approach

That's not what I said. Misrepresentation is bad. You have flat out attacked our approach to mafia several times this game, using phrases like "laughably bad" and such. Simultaneously you are ignoring anything that is evidence of us being town while at the same time cherry picking or twisting anything you can to try and make us look bad. You don't seem to be actually honestly evaluating us. You appear to have an end goal in mind and are trying to cherry pick and spin anything you can to get there while ignoring anything that would go against your desired goal if you considered it.

If you are town, then you need to wake up and realize that what you're doing is bad. Starting with a conclusion and then looking for anything you can find and bend to make into "evidence" of that conclusion, and ignoring anything that doesn't support your conclusion. That's exactly how NOT to reason.

I don't care if you scum read us. Given time we'll be obvtown. I do care if you are behaving in a way that's intellectually dishonest, because that's frequently how scum drive mislynches. The longer you keep behaving intellectually dishonestly and trying to keep a stupid fight going, the more concerning it becomes. If you are town, you need to stop it, because unless something changes drastically we're going to flip today and when we flip as Defenders of Earth, you are going to be one of the first places people look. I'm begging you to work WITH us and not put yourself in a position where you get speed mislynched again, on the premise that you are town.

~Drixx

[Not Chara]

McMenno: i did another check using the search function. you're the only player to have brought up a traitor in relation to SirCakez's flip.

Cerb: grapes didn't say they weren't pushing you. they are, and said so. they said they weren't pushing you in an elitist fashion.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Yea Drixx literally fuck off. Your logic was "lol scum wouldn't be put into a neighborhood automatically with an IC"

That's what lost us the game. It wasn't me that hammered fuzzy who had a weak flavor claim and was scum by play all game. It wasn't me that quick lynched me while I was asleep.
It was you, mastin and cerb that lynched me (obvtown with obvtown flavor) that made a play far too ballsy to come from scum and then proceeded to lynch a fucking COP CLEAR in mylo because you guessed the setup wrong.

In a retrospectively very flavor indicative game.

But I understand that you like to bring this up because it's all about the blame game.

Like, you talk about my ego. You don't know me. And you certainly have a lot harder of a time letting go shit that happened a year ago in a internet forum dedicated to a detective cops and robbers game based on a kids television show than I do.

Let's stop living in the past.

[grapes]

The more you refuse to engage honestly with us and focus on keeping a dumb fight going, the more I am asking myself why you seem to care more about keeping the noise going than anything else.

Holy shit this guy must be trolling.

[Varsoon]

As a note, for the 'Message Received' Event:
You must forego taking ALL of your possible Climax actions during the Climax Phase to earn points.
Events that meet their requirements to be triggered may be foregone to earn points.
If your role does not have any activated Climax actions or an Event that meets its requirements, you can not contribute.
Foregoing using Events or Actions to earn points DOES NOT use up limited shots or the Event.

[Reasonably Rational]

McMenno: i did another check using the search function. you're the only player to have brought up a traitor in relation to SirCakez's flip.

Cerb: grapes didn't say they weren't pushing you. they are, and said so. they said they weren't pushing you in an elitist fashion.

Umm, I know they said they were pushing me? I just disagree that what they're doing is pushing. Has more akin to noise than pressure, at least from my perspective. That could just be because I view the points he's trying to raise as specious though. Maybe other people think they're something I should care about.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i don't have time to read up the thread right now. still, i did check, and i don't think i saw a mention of this.

SirCakez's ability allowed him (and his team, later) to look for Jasper. i can't think of what this would indicate besides Jasper being the flavour of a traitor. (as she obviously is not a "Threat To Earth" if they would have to search for her) but the player with Jasper flavour could also in no way be aligned with earth.

if someone could think of a different thing Jasper could be, i am all ears. i brought this up because i hadn't seen it being spoken about, but there has been talk of a traitor between Klingoncelt and DGB.

Good point. That makes the whole "traitor" thing way more suspicious now because there was no reason to posit a traitor. That also raises this question: why on EARTH would we have helped and pushed for an SC lynch if we were on a scum team with him and his role was the role that finds what is presumably a traitor?

I mean ... the number of things we've done that we didn't have to do that are extremely detrimental to scum and helpful to town is piling up pretty high now:

1.) We allied with Titus and because of how she responded to the crumb I put out we trusted her enough to get help trying to co-ordinate our event, which no matter how you slice it is a pro-town event. You can point to Varsoon warning us that scum will have town flavor, but why on earth would we DAY ONE reveal the crazy good stuff our event awards and ensure that we are obligated to end up giving a cop check to conftown, if we're scum? Cerb and I are both smart and clever, but that's a

really

long con you guys are positing.

2.) Setting aside who gets credit, becuase it's irrelevant, I

clearly

pushed SC hard and contributed to ensuring he got lynched. Thanks to Not Chara making a connection that didn't click for me, that now appears to mean that, if we were scum, we pushed to lynch someone who has an ability that looks like it's designed to find/recruit a traitor.

These are things that scum might do, given whatever circumstances. But are they things any scum would do unforced and on day one?

When I say people are being confbiased ... this is why.

~Drixx

[grapes]

Titus not sure why you responded to me with the living in the past thing?

Drixx has been trying to get me to roll around in the much with him about this shit since like prequel.

[grapes]

muck*

[Reasonably Rational]

The more you refuse to engage honestly with us and focus on keeping a dumb fight going, the more I am asking myself why you seem to care more about keeping the noise going than anything else.

Holy shit this guy must be trolling.

Nope. I've been trying to get you to realize that what you're doing is logically unsound and get you to re-evaluate. You keep on cherry picking stuff from my big posts that allow you to extend the stupid fight instead of paying attention to the actual point I'm driving. The question is why.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Titus not sure why you responded to me with the living in the past thing?

Drixx has been trying to get me to roll around in the much with him about this shit since like prequel.

Drixx brings up losing that game ALL THE FUCKING TIME in wholly unrelated games. He won't shut up about it.

...

Feel free to check some of our slack dumps from hydra games. Search for "grapes". Good chance you'll get a hit.

-Cerb

[Almost50]

For the record, I'm having trouble reconciling the idea of farside as scum with her having a gun that ALSO costs town a lynch. Unless the ability has some other cost associated with it (most likely loss of a NK or something like that), I can only see that being a balanced tool to give to scum in the presence of 1) a number of traditional day vigs, or 2) day role blockers/neutralizes of some sort.

But even then...if Farside22 didn't claim that, how would anyone know to stop her? Hell, farside, is your vig publicly activated or privately activated?

-Cerb

Flashback: In Soccer Spirits; I had a day vig shot (I was scum) ONLY if our NK failed the night before.

[McMenno]

McMenno: i did another check using the search function. you're the only player to have brought up a traitor in relation to SirCakez's flip.

Cerb: grapes didn't say they weren't pushing you. they are, and said so. they said they weren't pushing you in an elitist fashion.

...okay...

hey rr, are you positive on your event resulting in a cop clear? like, did you check it with varsoon?

[Not Chara]

McMenno: i did another check using the search function. you're the only player to have brought up a traitor in relation to SirCakez's flip.

Cerb: grapes didn't say they weren't pushing you. they are, and said so. they said they weren't pushing you in an elitist fashion.

Umm, I know they said they were pushing me? I just disagree that what they're doing is pushing. Has more akin to noise than pressure, at least from my perspective. That could just be because I view the points he's trying to raise as specious though. Maybe other people think they're something I should care about.

-Cerb

i see, then i misunderstood. sorry, i have not done in-depth reading of the last few pages. i had just thought you misread.

[grapes]

In other news would anyone like to squad up this climax. Looking for 1 atm. Possibly 2.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

i don't have time to read up the thread right now. still, i did check, and i don't think i saw a mention of this.

SirCakez's ability allowed him (and his team, later) to look for Jasper. i can't think of what this would indicate besides Jasper being the flavour of a traitor. (as she obviously is not a "Threat To Earth" if they would have to search for her) but the player with Jasper flavour could also in no way be aligned with earth.

if someone could think of a different thing Jasper could be, i am all ears. i brought this up because i hadn't seen it being spoken about, but there has been talk of a traitor between Klingoncelt and DGB.

Jasper likely is a traitor, which necessarily requires reworking scumteam theories from Day 1, as there is a Scum member that the scumteam doesn't know. Jasper could be a powerful town role but that is unlikely based on even my dumb flavor knowledge.

Anyone really good with flavor here?

[grapes]

ALSO

If it's the phase where we can have 3 ppl per alliance then I don't take away alliance bonuses anymore.

Which should be confirmed based on what chara said about when they first joined an alliance with me.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

In other news would anyone like to squad up this climax. Looking for 1 atm. Possibly 2.

Why two to ally? NC said the same thing.

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, I'm having trouble reconciling the idea of farside as scum with her having a gun that ALSO costs town a lynch. Unless the ability has some other cost associated with it (most likely loss of a NK or something like that), I can only see that being a balanced tool to give to scum in the presence of 1) a number of traditional day vigs, or 2) day role blockers/neutralizes of some sort.

But even then...if Farside22 didn't claim that, how would anyone know to stop her? Hell, farside, is your vig publicly activated or privately activated?

-Cerb

Flashback: In Soccer Spirits; I had a day vig shot (I was scum) ONLY if our NK failed the night before.

Dramonic is incapable of making a balanced game. No one should EVER use one of his games as a counterpoint to setup spec.

With that said, what you're suggesting here is that Farside is scum, the scum kill failed last night, and a gated ability to superpower the nk waa activated.

I mean it fits, but it'sa stretch imo.

-Cerb

Pedit; no worries NC. For the record, I very much Iike your attitude, and look forward to seeing you around if I keep playing.

Peditx2: Yume and I are both quite good with flavor. NC also seems to be.

[grapes]

Isn't finale every 3rd day?

[Not Chara]

Isn't finale every 3rd day?

every fourth day.

[Reasonably Rational]

Isn't finale every 3rd day?

Fourth.

Third days climax is when you'd submit the large alliance.

-Cerb

[grapes]

Oh it's every 4th episode.

AND it's also day 2.

pedit: yea

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

I got a lumpy potato last night too. What flavor is that associated with guys?