Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[Cass]

For those considering me as scum, ask yourself the following questions please:
- Why would I have resisted the Tne lynch as long as I did, if I knew she was town? I had a solid reasoning why scum would do what she did, as scum I would have pushed that hard and made it quick.
- Why would I have targeted (as scum) anyone but Shannon on Night 1, considering I believed she had breadcrumbed a PR?

[Cass]

Also, I started to make the big Imp post, but frankly I'm exhausted and can't keep my eyes open much longer. So sorry. Later.

[Chrimi]

Right now if I were to make a guess I'd say cass/drone. Second would be a tossup between cass/af and cass/pp. But I really do think cass's play is scummy.

So... basically you'd link me to anyone (except Chrimi, because doubting her got you under fire before...), as long as it gets me lynched, right? Because it takes only one mislynch right now, so who cares, right?

He thinks we're not scum partners because I'm pushing you like this, not because questioning me got him under fire. This is horrible misrep coming straight from scum. Can we lynch Cass now please?

[Chrimi]

For those considering me as scum, ask yourself the following questions please:
- Why would I have resisted the Tne lynch as long as I did, if I knew she was town? I had a solid reasoning why scum would do what she did, as scum I would have pushed that hard and made it quick.
- Why would I have targeted (as scum) anyone but Shannon on Night 1, considering I believed she had breadcrumbed a PR?

Did you ever state in thread that you think she was breadcrumbing before her (horrible) claim?

[Chrimi]

Wait no

UNVOTE:

Fuck what

I need to think about this. dammit

[implosion]

@Implosion
About me/Cass;
If I was scum with Cass and she'd be digging under me like she did day 2, she'd be way too obvious with her attempt at a bus. Although as Jibs and Rocnix, I'd think as you do (#181).
I really don't think Cass would be so obvious, it's almost a newbie slip.

I'm willing to somewhat accept this (or rather, I think it's moderately unlikely you'd make this argument directly if you were scum with her). So eh. Honestly I really have no strong idea on Cass's partner but I will once again be showing why I think Cass's rhetoric today is scummy below.

So... basically you'd link me to anyone (except Chrimi, because doubting her got you under fire before...), as long as it gets me lynched, right? Because it takes only one mislynch right now, so who cares, right?

This is such a horrible argument. It assumes the consequent. There's a perfectly good obvious explanation in the world of me being town, which is that you're my primary scumread and I'm not sure about your partner. To turn it around even, I would claim that the reason you're so confident on your reads of me+drone is because you are scum who has the luxury of being confident about their reads in spite of a game that has been going very poorly for town. Saying that I'm scum for not being sure about who you're scum is is frankly absurd.

Additionally, saying that I doubted Chrimi is a major misrep; I have made it

extremely

explicit throughout the game since her claim that I have thought she was town; again, I have only said that she wasn't clear and that people should think critically. If you seriously think that my rhetoric about Chrimi has left me any room if I'm scum to flip on her then you are seriously disingenuously reading what I'm saying.

Not going to respond to the second half of your post because it's pure rhetoric.

For those considering me as scum, ask yourself the following questions please:
- Why would I have resisted the Tne lynch as long as I did, if I knew she was town? I had a solid reasoning why scum would do what she did, as scum I would have pushed that hard and made it quick.
- Why would I have targeted (as scum) anyone but Shannon on Night 1, considering I believed she had breadcrumbed a PR?

Well let's see.
The first one is ONCE AGAIN that you could have been lining up mislynches... a quick tne lynch isn't as beneficial for scum as a drawn-out day with a lot of vague suspicion towards tne and a lynch on a different townie, which essentially secures the game if tne is mislynched the next day. You say this:

Also Yuck @Implosion for keeping to throw that 'lining up lynches' crap on me to see if it will stick.

and then you simultaneously say "well guys, there's no way I can be scum, I would have just pushed tne!" when that point of mine is

directly addressing that

and offering an clear, straightforward, typical scum motivation for you pushing people other than tne.

The second one has plenty of explanations.
1) you didn't read the game and find the crumb until d2 (most likely)
2) you [or the other scum] also thought Chrimi had breadcrumbed a pr and so targeted her instead
3) you weren't sure about the breadcrumb and went for Chrimi for some different reason, like that you thought she was a big threat
4) you lied about having seen a breadcrumb and made it up after the fact (less likely)

Also another thing you said that I disagree with, just empirically:

Also at me being scum with Drone or Implosion - I want them both dead. And wtf would scum bus their partner in this situation - when town is already attacking town.

I think possibly my best scumgame on this site was a game where it was 3:10, eventually went down to 2:4 and me and my scumbuddy managed to distance from each other very effectively, never really committing to lynching the other one but throwing enough suspicion towards each other that the town was hook, line and sinker convinced that the scumteam wasn't the two of us, so in the event that one of us was lynched the other would likely clean up. Even then, we were fairly secure in the lynch that day being on town, because we never committed to voting each other...

...which is awful convenient if you're voting me as scum with drone. Who was it that said this?

Because it takes only one mislynch right now, so who cares, right?

Oh yeah, that was you talking about my play. Well if you're scum with Drone, I'm the mislynch you need, so who cares what happens after that, right?

[Cass]

Ok,mI completely understand all the arguments about how uncertainty right now is bad, and I'm not nearly as certain as I may seem. But here's where I am stuck at - and I'd love counter- arguments:

1. Drone/ Rocnix. The core thing here is all the talk about 0x40 being a policy lynch, repeatedly, and before the flip. I just really don't see why a townie would do that. Why?? Makes no sense. But a newb-scum, knowing of imminent town-flip and wanting to wash her/his hands of it? Yes, makes a lot of sense.
2. I can't see PP or AF as Drones buddy, because of their interactions. And that leaves only Implosion. Making me read their actions today as sneakily ganging up on me, making me paranoid and aggresive. Yes.

Now @Implosion, if you are town: try imagining I'm town too and consider if it makes sense then, what I'm saying.
@Chrimi: I hope you can also try this, having a more neutral mindset than me. Imagine the case where me and Imp are townies tearing into each other. In this case the scum would be among PP/AF/ Drone. Is this a serious option in your opinion?

I'm also(if slowly) rereading and hoping to find anything that could help us fix this mess.

[Drone]

For those considering me as scum, ask yourself the following questions please:
- Why would I have resisted the Tne lynch as long as I did, if I knew she was town? I had a solid reasoning why scum would do what she did, as scum I would have pushed that hard and made it quick.
- Why would I have targeted (as scum) anyone but Shannon on Night 1, considering I believed she had breadcrumbed a PR?

1) Because you could have done what you blamed me for.
2) Because you didn't? You are a replacement from day 2, the no nk was n1. At the beginning of day 2 you said nothing about Shannon, except flat reads.

[Drone]

Ok,mI completely understand all the arguments about how uncertainty right now is bad, and I'm not nearly as certain as I may seem. But here's where I am stuck at - and I'd love counter- arguments:

1. Drone/ Rocnix. The core thing here is all the talk about 0x40 being a policy lynch, repeatedly, and before the flip. I just really don't see why a townie would do that. Why?? Makes no sense. But a newb-scum, knowing of imminent town-flip and wanting to wash her/his hands of it? Yes, makes a lot of sense.
2. I can't see PP or AF as Drones buddy, because of their interactions. And that leaves only Implosion. Making me read their actions today as sneakily ganging up on me, making me paranoid and aggresive. Yes.

Now @Implosion, if you are town: try imagining I'm town too and consider if it makes sense then, what I'm saying.
@Chrimi: I hope you can also try this, having a more neutral mindset than me. Imagine the case where me and Imp are townies tearing into each other. In this case the scum would be among PP/AF/ Drone. Is this a serious option in your opinion?

I'm also(if slowly) rereading and hoping to find anything that could help us fix this mess.

Didn't I answer that a few hundred of posts ago? There's nothing to keep discussing here, and even if 0x40 was scum, it still would have a policy lynch + some failing to see his scuminess.
And I already said, as a replacement I wanted to get reads and see full picture before the end of day 1, without trying stir town especially since I just replaced in.
I did though, stated what I thought of 0x40.

[Cass]

1) no. Also, very different circumstances.
2) I read the game during night. I replaced in the moment night started. Ask the mod to confirm this, if you must. I spotted the 'crumb', also spotted most everyone quietly twonreading Shannon, leading me to believe many people saw her as PR and were doing the correct thing: townread, otherwise draw no attention to this person. That's what I did until the claim. Outing her / role fishing in post 1 is what scum-me might have done... Except I would have NKed her first. I was trying to protect a town asset.

[Cass]

Ebwop: Drone, I'm not askimg you to answer about 0x40 again, I know there's nothing more to say. I was just explaining to everyone else why I can't shake my scumread on you.

[innocentvillager]

AstralFlare has been prodded.

[Chrimi]

@Chrimi: I hope you can also try this, having a more neutral mindset than me. Imagine the case where me and Imp are townies tearing into each other. In this case the scum would be among PP/AF/ Drone. Is this a serious option in your opinion?

It is a serious option. I'm trying to decide between PP, AF, and you (Cass). Drone and implosion are definitely town in my mind. So I'm trying to make sure I don't lynch the 1/3 of you that is town.

One of my issues is that I'm having trouble reading you and PP and deciding which one is scum.. But I know for sure that AF is scum with one of you.

So..

VOTE: AstralFlare

And we can try and figure out who the scumbuddy is when we're not at mylo?

[Chrimi]

Also a no-lynch is unacceptable today because, duh, scum is going to kill me and that doesn't help us lower the lynchpool at all.

[AstralFlare]

Sorry for the absence- real life got in the way.

@Astralflare
I'd definitely pick Chrimi over tne for a nk as a scum, but this question you just asked makes you scummy af.
Also tne's been on your trail on end day 2.

VOTE: AstralFlare

I hardly remember any contribution you've made to town, in fact I've been following your patten of posting and it really feels like you've been sliding under the radar with only showing up here and there and blend in the ongoing topic at the time.
Offering mostly rephrased context of the same content already been shared and discussed.
Then you come questioning whom would we nk'ed in between tne and Chrimi.
I mean, could be improbability scum were aiming for,
And you still mentioning it and siding with Chrimi doesn't sound too well.
Give us content, reads, thoughts. Anything to work with

The question I asked was a rhetorical one designed to strengthened my argument that Chrimi was the NK target N1. Anyhow, I'm curious as to how asking a rhetorical question makes me sound scummy. On the 'rephrased content of what was already discussed', could you please provide specific examples?

I don't get your argument: what you're essentially saying is that I am scum for asking a

rhetorical question

which highlighted how Chrimi would have been the N1 kill. I am unable to see a correlation between this and scumminess.

[AstralFlare]

I'm going to vomit posts. Page 35 thoughts:

AF hasn't done anything to make me change my read on him...still leaning town. Cass still null...I would have gone leantown, but remaining off the TNE wagon, and the quick start of an implosion wagon at the beginning of the day are a bit offputting.

You've a contradiction here which is potentially scummy. You say not being on the TNE wagon is scummy. I wasn't on the TNE wagon. And yet I'm still town in your book. Also, I would like you to elaborate on why not wagoning on town is a scummy thing to do.

Oh also if you manage to prove Chrimi's innocence, please do post the proof. I really would like to know where you get this safe feeling from.

Something something 25% chance. Do you think there's a possibility Chrimi is scum?

On another note

VOTE: AstralFlare

Any reason why? Your last case on me was ages ago.

Well then if he didn't do anything to change you're reads, what has he done to make you read him town? I don't see it..

Like, I did stuff yesterday that looked towny, then I didn't do anything today, so I'm still towny. I don't get what you're going at here. I see nothing wrong with this part of his logic.

Drone & Cass scumteam, anyways?

I think you misread. Drone was quoting PP. But very improbable. They were OMGUSing each other hard multiple times yesterday instead of jumping onto the TNE wagon like a good scum would have. Also, I don't think scum would bus that hard.

I'll be back after dinner.

[PenguinPower]

You've a contradiction here which is potentially scummy. You say not being on the TNE wagon is scummy. I wasn't on the TNE wagon. And yet I'm still town in your book. Also, I would like you to elaborate on why not wagoning on town is a scummy thing to do.

Firstly, we didn't know she was town at that point. Scum did.

Secondly:
I missed that you weren't voting when I posted that...

(although I later noticed that AF was also not voting at all)

But even on re-read...

Thirdly:
You weren't "supporting" the wagon, yet remaining off of it. 749 792 796 806 vs your 783.

I've found in the games that I've played that, if scum can get enough town on board a mislynch, one is on and one off. Now, that's a small sample size so I'm not saying that it's indicative of anything, but it made my gut feel scum!Cass for a minute.

I'd like your thoughts on Cass now.

[AstralFlare]

In a moment. I'll give my thoughts on the individual posts first to catch up, then try to look at the trains of thought Cass has been going down and analyze if they're towny.

[Drone]

Once again, I'll be commenting within the quotes bolded.

Oh also if you manage to prove Chrimi's innocence, please do post the proof. I really would like to know where you get this safe feeling from.

Something something 25% chance. Do you think there's a possibility Chrimi is scum?

Possibility exists, always.
However I read her town in every aspect since mid-end day 2 increasingly, the more I heard of her, the more I let go of the suspicions and questions I had towards her.
However that's my personal read, and I wanted to know how you could be so sure of her being towny, as an individual.

On another note

VOTE: AstralFlare

Any reason why? Your last case on me was ages ago.

I believe this was derived by my post.

[/i]

Well then if he didn't do anything to change you're reads, what has he done to make you read him town? I don't see it..

Like, I did stuff yesterday that looked towny, then I didn't do anything today, so I'm still towny. I don't get what you're going at here. I see nothing wrong with this part of his logic.

Probably because I awfully felt you're scum and couldn't consider other's reads? I feel like your day 2 posts were fillers, they surely did look towny, but in my opinion they were mainly a polished copy pasted points of others.

I'll be back after dinner.

I'd like your thoughts on Cass now.

I'd like that too.

[AstralFlare]

I'm reading and commenting as I go along. IE I'm looking at 36 without having read 37. So if i asked you a question here and the answer is on 37, i apologize. I just want a better sense of how things have progressed during my absence.

No. It's implosion and Drone.

Something something no preflip associations. Are this individual scumreads? What do you think of the interactions between them?

I kinda agree with Chrimi's interpretation of Implosion's play as towny.

Chrimi said implosion's play was scummy... She even voted him.

No. I didn't talk about the wagon. I don't care for the wagon.
What I said was referring the flip. Her being town messes our findings so far a bit.
I don't know what you tried to get from the wagon read when the wagon was solely made for information, which is why tne didn't even bother posting much against it.
She did give her own "town list" though, which I directly referred to in my post on af.
This was what triggered me to reread his ISO, and conclude the conclusion I posted earlier.

You come up saying I'm scum, according to?

I'm having a hard time understanding you here. I need some clarificationWhat is your main point? And what is one piece of evidence you have to back it up?

I did not lynch TNE for information, we knew beforehand that a town flip would not give much.

I honestly hoped she'd flip scum, against my instincts.

If I was scum with drone, why would I have opposed a tne lynch at all? I'd have pushed it through quickly and hammered much sooner. There was a perfectly convincing case to be made there, not that anyone really bothered.

First thing I 100% with. Coming from someone who was in a similar position to Cass yesterday, as town who didn't support the TNE wagon, I can emphatise with everything here, particularly the line in bold. I really don't think there was a benefit for scum in not hammering quick.

So: PP, Chrimi, Astralflare - shall we lynch Drone today? I mean, he is being quite obvious now, amirite?
VOTE: Drone

When I look at Drone, I see misreps so obvious they have to be careless mistakes. I see arguments I need clarification on before making judgement. I do not see scum.

That would have been a very, very very foolish scum, which you are not at least in my opinion.

Scum would have been 2-3 after they got the mislynch. Very good odds for them, I would say. I think the risk would have been a worthwhile one.

This level of directness (directing this towards the three specific people she's townreading) is, I think, indicative of scum who sees what they think to be the easiest way to win the game and is pushing it. I really just don't see this degree of strong confidence from town in this situation in mylo

I see what you mean. This is a very valid point. Like I said above, it's 2-3 and scum would be very confident right now. However Cass has been FoSing Drone throughout the whole of yesterday if memory serves me right, so I don't think a case of town!Cass voting Drone early would be too out of imagination.

If she's willing to unvote when someone mentions it's mylo, as town, she never should have voted me in the first place.

Fair enough. Very valid and very town. But you have to note that she has been FoSing you the whole of yesterday as well. It isn't just a sudden out of the blue vote, it's in agreement with what she has previously expressed on the subject of you being scum. Everything I've read of Cass suggests that she is a confident player, one confident enough in her read of you to put you at L-2.

Right now if I were to make a guess I'd say cass/drone.

Why do people keep assuming a Cass/Drone scumteam when they have been arguing with each other in so many ways yesterday and today?

VOTE: Cass

Join me, implosion?

Something something This level of directness (directing this towards the one specific person she is townreading) is, I think, indicative of scum something something.

By the way af and Cass share this "filler" posting similarity.

This was something I was voted for in my previous game as well. I thought I had gotten rid of it this game, but apparently not. Could you cite some examples of this? A lot of the time I just try to ask people questions. Relevant or not relevant, it lets me looks at people's reactions and pushes the game forward. I don't like big scale ISO reading because it's too time consuming and tends to come with a 10kg sack of confbias.

Funny, my 'townpool' is you, me and AF

What exactly have I done to make you think I'm town? I'm reading you town hard, but looking at everyone else scumreading you, I'm starting to doubt myself and become afraid of neighbouring.

Risk taking right now is not scummy, because all scum have to do in this situation is sit back quietly, sip their drinks and wait until two townies agree on the wrong person

Risk taking right now increases the odds for scum to win the game. If you're town and put another town at L-2, scum can just sweep in and hammer. It helps scum, but it doesn't mean you're scum. I think people are confusing scummy as in helps scum, and scum as in you're mafia.

I ship af/Cass mafia. You didn't make any new point just elaborated literally what I've been doing and added some words to make it sound like scummy behaviour.

Sweet. I know the second sentence refers to cass, but I would to point out it's exactly what you've been doing to me. Your case on me amounts to "This was what triggered me to reread his ISO, and conclude the conclusion I posted earlier." In other words, you read my ISO, said I wasn't adding new content to the discussion, failed to show any examples of it, and now I'm scum. Yay,

Cass is very very defensive in 898 and 899.

[AstralFlare]

Page 37, then Cass

[AstralFlare]

Wait no

UNVOTE:

Fuck what

I need to think about this. dammit

And here we have the best post in the entire game so far.

No this is not sarcasm.

[AstralFlare]

From what I've seen, Cass has several main thoughts going on at once.

1) Lynch Implosion
Based mainly on his actions in D2, which I construed as scummy as well. However, I wouldn't have advocated for a lynch on anyone at all. I think it is best to FoS/pseudovote people, but not officially vote them, so there's no way for scum to quickhammer consecutively and ezwin.
That said, I found his D3 posts very town. Cass, has your read on him changed based on his D3 posts?
Scumminess: 3/10

2) Lynch Drone

a) Based on his arguments on Page 35/36.
It is true that his argument is weak, but in that case ask for clarification, not lynch. I don't really think that reaching out to her townreads is scummy, especially when she said she thought of herself/me/Chrimi as a townbloc. Also she isn't asking her townreads, she's asking everyone besides her scumreads (Imp/Drone).
Scumminess: 2+?/10 (until Drone clarifies so I know what he is driving at)

b) Based on how Drone didn't express an opinion on the implosion vote.
This is a weak point. You say him voting me in the same post is distracting. When town could also be completely legitimately pushing their own wagon on someone who they think is scum. You say him not offering an opinion is distancing. Which is something I've done as town as well: not offering an opinion early because we don't feel a need to, or want to see how it develops. There potentially could be an edge of desperation to get a lynch here. You're latching onto any opportunity you get to push this lynch. Either conf bias, or scum.
Scumminess: 5/10

c) Called 0x40 a policy lynch before he flipped. I think this is very valid. That said, to give a counterargument, the word 'policy lynch' was very much floated around with regards to 0x40 Day One.
Scumminess: 2/10

Overall: Her pushing for a lynch on Drone is less scummy than say pushing a vote on implosion or I. Purely because we have Chrimi, the conftown, reading Drone as town. Whereas there are already people willing to wagon imp and I. Getting a mislynch on Drone would be harder than getting a mislynch on imp/I, so I don't see why she would go for Drone over us.

3) I'm not scum

a) I resisted the TNE wagon
b) I didn't target Shannon on N1
Implosion and PP both offered rebuttals to these points, which are definitely convincing on the surface (especially PP's). I don't know how much I can trust them however. I would like to see your big post on Imp. I know I've said I'll ISO him for a long time, and never really got around to doing it. However, both of these are points I can see town using as well. The first one is particular is what I as town would have said in the same situation. (Heck, it's what I'm saying now.)
Scumminess: 3+?/10 (? is for when I decide how much I can trust imp)


Yeah that's my thoughts on Cass. It makes sense for town to think the way she is thinking right now. But I'm always ready to be persuaded otherwise. (imp?)

[AstralFlare]

Drone:

Possibility exists, always.
However I read her town in every aspect since mid-end day 2 increasingly, the more I heard of her, the more I let go of the suspicions and questions I had towards her.
However that's my personal read, and I wanted to know how you could be so sure of her being towny, as an individual.

If you already think she's innocent, why do you want more proof of her being innocent? I am sure of her being town as I do not think Scum would take a 25% chance to throw the game. In addition, she has been proactive (but misguided) in her scumhunting.

I believe this was derived by my post.

Your post was a series of generalised statements devoid of examples.

Probably because I awfully felt you're scum and couldn't consider other's reads? I feel like your day 2 posts were fillers, they surely did look towny, but in my opinion they were mainly a polished copy pasted points of others.

Again, examples. I do believe I was the only person in the game to firmly read TNE as town (besides maybe Cass) all the way through.

[AstralFlare]

Now can someone take their vote off me before scum double votes me in a row?

Is it a reasonable conclusion to make that Drone is scum if a double vote on me does not happen overnight? I think scum would have coordinated during the night to find a time where they both are usually on to quickhammer an L-2. (Assuming Chrimi town)