Mini 497 - Game Over

[curiouskarmadog]

Elias, you know that hasnt been the only opinion I have had,,,I have through suspicion at you and joost....for Tin and Vamp (for different reasons)..and kab for laying the ground work for YOUR lynch Day 2...are you still standing by this post, or do I need to go back and quote every post when I "attacked" someone else?

[Atticus]

AIMEE:

Posts:
Post0: Random Vote
Post1: Believes a jester is unlikely (disagreement with kabenon)
Post2: Curious as to why Sephiroth is so defensive, believes Knuck is exaggerating on the dusterhan issue.
Post3: Believes Sephiroth is scummy, agrees with kabenon that dusterhan is mostly just unhelpful.
Post4: Believes Sephiroth is contradicting himself, FoS's me for not actually commenting on game issues.
Post5: Sees Sephiroth's point, playfully annoyed at me.
Post6: Knows she is neglecting game.
Post7: Analysis of everyone, suspicious of TV, N-L, kab, and me.
Post8: Hates on dusterhan. But that's generally accepted at this point.
Post9: Believes Town should focus not on dusterhan, clarifies that she is not suspicious of Sephiroth.
Post10: Expresses that she is suspicious of me, will check out dusterhan's other games, and that her case on N-L was not what I said.
Post11: Happy Birthday Frenchways.
Post12: Limited access warning.
Post13: Can't post.
Post14: Promises to post tomorrow.
Post15: Asks me what my latest post contributes. Asks OF why he finds me not scummy.
Post16: Further bitching towards me.
Post17: More of the above.
Post18: Prods herself, promises to try to read CKD.
Post19: Confirms her vote on me, refuses t post content due to Real Life issues.
Post20: Apologizes for absence confirms pushes Atticus lynch.
Post21: Lost, when it comes to kabenon's opinions of CKD/Seph.
Post22: Happy birthday, Votes kab, insists that Atticus is scum.
Post23: No access claim.

Opinions:
Seriously, what the hell? I had started this on Tuesday, expecting to take a while, but her hypocrisy and lack of post are more severe than I recall. Her lack of content is not only in the last half of her post, but she has been hypocritical throughout. She has yet to explain why she has voted for me, and more recently kabenon, and she rarely keeps up with her deadlines. Whether she truly has such severely limited access or not, I'm appalled that she voted for me based on lack of content for so long. It is rare that she posted her own opinions (even early in the game), but she insists that I am scum for it. I was hoping for her to make a post, seeing as she had implied the ability to post by Monday, but her votes have gone unexplained. Her lack of content coupled with her hypocrisy make her scummy in my eyes, so

Unvote, Vote:

Aimee.

[curiouskarmadog]

Elias, you know that hasnt been the only opinion I have had,,,I have THROWN suspicion at you and joost....for Tin and Vamp (for different reasons)..and kab for laying the ground work for YOUR lynch Day 2...are you still standing by this post, or do I need to go back and quote every post when I "attacked" someone else?

f proofreading

[Sephiroth]

Alright. I'll admit that my previous post was somewhat of an overstatement. Yes, you attacked Tin and Vamp VERY briefly. Yes, you briefly touched on what other people had said about Kab. Yes, you attacked Joost earlier (then again based solely on the fact that he was agreeing with me, so that shouldnt really count as a legitimate attack, simply an extension of your attack on me). But my main point is that overall, I've posted more about my opinions on various players (towntells and scumtells) then you have. I think you'll have to admit that I have dominated the majority of your posts, while the same can not be said about my posts and you. I'm just saying that if youre convinced that youre gonna be lynched, then why dont you, ya know...post your opinions on possible scumbuddies of mine under your allusion of me as mafia, post some opinions of what you would think of players if I came up town, and so on. For someone claimin theyre about to die, youre way too content in just sitting idly by.

[curiouskarmadog]

well, I think you would characterize anything I might say that might be an overstatement as a misrepresenatation, but I guess that is ok for you, right. Elias, I am not attacking you anymore...you are digging your own grave because you have got tunnel vision or you are scum. Have I attacked you since you said yo uwould take responsiblity for my lynch?

so since I am "content" that is a scum tell?

I am content because I am a replacement into this game and I am vanilla townie. If I was some sort of a power role I might throw more into this game. As it is, I am putting more into this game than 85% of the town.

I have urged this town to look at other people, but this town is full of lurkers waiting for my deadline lynch...what would you have me do? Put more effort into a game, where no one posts? I have said my piece, if something else comes up I will comment...

Still not too late to admit you could be wrong Elias....

why dont you practice what you preach...when I come up town, who will the scum group be then?..those who voted, or those who made a point not to? If I am scum, who are my buddies?

[curiouskarmadog]

the fact that you have stopped scum hunting is telling...

[Sephiroth]

well, I think you would characterize anything I might say that might be an overstatement as a misrepresenatation, but I guess that is ok for you, right.

The reason it is not a misrepresentation is because I'm willing to admit I was wrong. You have yet to admit any of your misrepresentations are wrong. I addressed why I got the impression that you hadnt attacked someone, then explained how my point still stands. You simply said "OMG hes lying" to my misrepresentation charges.

Elias, I am not attacking you anymore...you are digging your own grave because you have got tunnel vision or you are scum. Have I attacked you since you said yo uwould take responsiblity for my lynch?

No. But the fact that you arent hunting for anyone else while complaing that your lynch is wrong is a tell.

so since I am "content" that is a scum tell?

I am content because I am a replacement into this game and I am vanilla townie. If I was some sort of a power role I might throw more into this game. As it is, I am putting more into this game than 85% of the town.

While I see your point about non-participation from the town, I think that if you are vanilla townie then you should be fighting just as hard not to be lynched as you would be were you a power role. If you're town, first you know that you are town, and most likely a lynch that isnt yours is better then one that is yours, and second, you know that every post you make helps the town in endgame later. That is why I find it scummy that you'ce resigned yourself to being lynched but arent making contentful posts, just reinforcing the already present idea that I am a major part of your lynch.

I have urged this town to look at other people, but this town is full of lurkers waiting for my deadline lynch...what would you have me do? Put more effort into a game, where no one posts? I have said my piece, if something else comes up I will comment...

I would like you to post analysis, and talk about how you feel about all the players, protown and why, antitown and why. If you wont do that, well I'm not going to make you. I will simply point out how youre being very unhelpful by simply accepting your lynch.

Still not too late to admit you could be wrong Elias....

I never denied that I COULD be wrong. I just feel that it is highly unlikely. Please, dont put words in my mouth. I think I've already covered how I hate this (in this game as well as in 486).

why dont you practice what you preach...when I come up town, who will the scum group be then?..those who voted, or those who made a point not to? If I am scum, who are my buddies?

If my beliefs prove to be true, and you are in fact scum, I will be taking a close look at those pushing the Kab wagon (shanba, joost), seeing as it directly conflicts yours. If you were to come up town, I'd be looking at Kab, who was very quick to jump on your wagon, and others that supported the wagon without much original content. I posted most of this already on page 21. I've simply been asking you to do what I already have.

[Sephiroth]

the fact that you have stopped scum hunting is telling...

As you said yourself, there have not been many posts besides ours that contain anything substantial. I've found who I believe to be scum, and I have the info that your lynch tells me in line for tomorrow, so I'm ready to lynch you.

[JDodge]

Vote Count

:

curiouskarmadog (5): vampyrusddg, -TinVision-, Sephiroth, joost, kabenon007
-TinVision- (2): destructor, OpposedForce
kabenon007 (2): Shanba, Aimee
Aimee (1): Atticus

not voting (2): Flameaxe, curiouskarmadog

Seven to lynch, four to lynch at deadline (3 PM EDT, November 16th)

Current Player List

:

Atticus
curiouskarmadog

(replaces dusterhan)

-TinVision-
destructor
joost
OpposedForce

(replaces Knuck)

kabenon007
Shanba

(replaces Nirp)

Sephiroth
Aimee
Flameaxe

(replaces SilverPhoenix)

vampyrusddg

(replaces Nekka-Lucifer)

[curiouskarmadog]

the fact that you have stopped scum hunting is telling...

As you said yourself, there have not been many posts besides ours that contain anything substantial. I've found who I believe to be scum, and I have the info that your lynch tells me in line for tomorrow, so I'm ready to lynch you.

wow

Elias, you are a horrid scum hunter who has a knack of focusing on the obvious while ignoring the truly scummy. Your lack of foresight will get you hung tomorrow. You dont even see people laying groundwork for your lynch tomorrow. (by the way, I have a feeling that statement you will be using as defense come tomorrow, town I say dont let him). Ask yourself this, why would people be stating if CKD is town, the Seph must be scum before I am hung? It is set up. I hope you are scum, because once my alignment and role is revealed, you should pay the piper for your tunnel vision.

I feel like I have put all the info I can (at this point) out there, I agree that my lynch will provide much info for this town. But that information will not be in your favor. I will keep a spot warm for you.

[destructor]

dammit I have a lot to read.
Will post before the weekend's over.

[OpposedForce]

Please forgive me. I forgotten about this game and I thought I had more time to post today but I'm going to be busy. I ask that I not be replaced tommorow as I'll be avalible to post some content . Apologies to the mod and players.

[Sephiroth]

the fact that you have stopped scum hunting is telling...

As you said yourself, there have not been many posts besides ours that contain anything substantial. I've found who I believe to be scum, and I have the info that your lynch tells me in line for tomorrow, so I'm ready to lynch you.

wow

Elias, you are a horrid scum hunter who has a knack of focusing on the obvious while ignoring the truly scummy.

Um, no. First, the "truly" scummy is a term that is completely and totally subjective. Saying I don't focus on the "truly" scummy is quite frankly ridiculous, as what is defined as truly scummy varies widely from person to person. Second, I am not focusing on one person in terms of the game. I have expressed suspicion on several other players, and will express suspicions on several others tomorrow. However, with the level activity there is in this game, and the level of certainty I have that you're scum, and the info that will come from your lynch, I am happy to end today with said lynch.

Your lack of foresight will get you hung tomorrow. You dont even see people laying groundwork for your lynch tomorrow.

Lack of foresight? I have already questioned people twice on the reasoning behind saying "one of CKD and Seph is scum". I know perfectly well what people will try to do to me tomorrow in the case that I'm wrong. I'm confident that youre scum, first off, and second off, I'm confident that I can argue myself out of whatever the scum would try to throw at me to engineer a mislynch. I think you know from 486, I'm not so bad at defending myself.

(by the way, I have a feeling that statement you will be using as defense come tomorrow, town I say dont let him). Ask yourself this, why would people be stating if CKD is town, the Seph must be scum before I am hung? It is set up. I hope you are scum, because once my alignment and role is revealed, you should pay the piper for your tunnel vision.

You think that the idea that one of us must be scum is set up by scum...however youre the one leading the idea! You've been saying all along that I'm scum engineering a mislynch. Saying that the people setting up this idea is completely contradictory to me being scum, because there is no reason that my buddies would try to throw me under the wagon.

I feel like I have put all the info I can (at this point) out there, I agree that my lynch will provide much info for this town. But that information will not be in your favor. I will keep a spot warm for you.

Um...so why are you calling me scum for trying to lynch you? You just admitted that you give good info...tell me, who elses lynch gives us info, besides say, myself? You and me have been the most vocal in our stances, and thus provide the best info. I dont understand you at all CKD...

That being said, I would appreciate it if someone besides me or CKD chose to post something. Atticus, the main problem I see with your post is that you seem ready to vote one player without reviewing any others really. It hope you plan to take a look at at least one or two players before choosing one to vote for.

[Shanba]

CKD, I have a question for you - do you still believe Seph/Elias is scum?

[curiouskarmadog]

Elias, where did I call you scum in that last post? I said "hope" and "if"...if you hope to defend learn to read. Yes Elias, what you lack in scum hunting you have in being able to form a wall of words.

Shanba, not as sure as I once was....The fact that he said he will take responsiblity for my lynch says something to me, what he will say or do tomorrow I will read with interest (as I lie in my grave)..and the fact that Kab came out and said, that either CKD or Seph must be scum, seems like someone who knows I am town and is waiting for my mislynch and is setting up another mislynch tomorrow..maybe indicating that Elias/Speh is town..

that being said..

Vote Kab

, it is probably a useless vote at this point due to all the inactivity here and the fact my BW is leading...I am sure is OMGUS vote will follow only getting me that much more closer...

[Shanba]

The reason I ask you is because you don't seem very consistent in the matter in your last few posts.

by the way, I have a feeling that statement you will be using as defense come tomorrow, town I say dont let him

This indicates you think he's scum,

the fact that you have stopped scum hunting is telling...

as does this. This

Elias, you are a horrid scum hunter who has a knack of focusing on the obvious while ignoring the truly scummy. Your lack of foresight will get you hung tomorrow.

however, inicateed to me you thought he was town. Hence why I asked. And I'm pleased to note you don't sound too sure. If you had said yes, 100%, I would have been worried. Meh. Wasn't as telling as I'd hoped.

[Aimee]

I'm trying mega hard to catch up with MS. Almost there! By the end of the weekend, I can guarantee there will be a post here.

[destructor]

In advance, I wrote this up last night and just as I was going to post it, my internet connection died. It was late and I stayed up sewing this patchwork post together. I don't want to have to completely rewrite it, so I just went over now before I posted it to revise it.


Firstly, I hate Sephiroth and CKD for leaving those posts that were torture to read. =P

More seriously, I didn't like the way either of them went about it, at least until Sephiroth composed his case. Still, didn't find either one of them particularly more convincing than the other. Sephiroth's case on CKD didn't sway me a huge amount. I think it even came across as almost opportunistic, reachy and simply unconvincing in parts. CKD, I thought, was going about expressing his suspicion of Seph in a very poor fashion which made Seph's rebuttal easier. Even so, for the most part, I agreed with where CKD was coming from, if not where he took it.


I didn't think there was a great case on kabenon, though his recent posts, especially the dichotomy between Seph and CKD, raised my eyebrows, in a bad way, more than anything else he'd said this game.


TinVision is still the most scummy in my eyes. Zero scum-hunting, strawmanning, dishonestly, lurking.

I could see Atticus and TinVision as scum-buddies. Tin deserves to be lynched for pristine scumminess and Atticus deserves to be lynched for lurking and a severe lack of pro-town play this game.

TinVision is still the most scummy in my eyes. Zero scum-hunting, strawmanning, dishonestly, lurking. Like I said earlier, given that a majority of his few posts are scummy and he's posted little to no pro-town content, I think there's a huge chance we'd hit scum if we lynched him.

I can't take Atticus' case on Aimee seriously. Yes, she hasn't posted, but I wouldn't call her play 'lurking' since she seems to have been genuinely away from the site for a while now. You can check most of her current games to verify this. Atticus, on the other hand has been here but provided us with very little help.


I still find Sephiroth suspicious. I really think his arguments about kabenon weren't great, and even a reach. I thought it was ironic that he says kabenon was 'playing semantics games' (317) when Sephiroth has been harping on again and again about how significant the difference is between finding dusterhan's 'post/s' scummy, but not dusterhan himself.

When I look at Seph's posts, I don't see anything that screams pro-town to me. He's dishing out suspicions while being, in my opinion, overly aggressive and defensive. The bulk of his content has apparently been based more around self-preservations than scum-hunting.

Also, his stance on the dusterhan lynch could have been him pushing a mislynch while giving it a pro-town spin. I agree with CKD on this. Lynching a townie is not pro-town, regardless of what spin is put on it. And I already expressed my frustration at the fact that many players (most notably, to my memory, Sephiroth and joost) had decided obsessing over one useless player (dusterhan) and lynching him was more important than scum-hunting.

A few quick Sephiroth quotes from his last post:

... and second off, I'm confident that I can argue myself out of whatever the scum would try to throw at me to engineer a mislynch.

You're suggesting that the only people who would try to lynch you are scum? Ridiculous.

Saying that the people setting up this idea is completely contradictory to me being scum, because there is no reason that my buddies would try to throw me under the wagon.

This is assuming there is only one scum-group. It's entirely possible that there are two scum-groups and/or even a SK, any of which Sephiroth could easily fit in.


I can see Shanba's Post 342 and 380 as evidence of a connection to Sephiroth. His 'case' on Seph was half-hearted. He superficially expresses suspicion of Seph without ever decisively stating that anything is scummy. I also didn't think his case on kab was better than the one that already existed. Interestingly, both TinVision and Atticus commented that Shanba's 343 was insightful, Atticus even calling it agreeable.


I've been significantly less impressed with joosts play later in this game compared to his play earlier. He was scum-hunting and even leading discussion earlier on, and I liked where he was going with it. But lately he seems to have been jumping onto other's case without contributing much himself.


So far as Day 1's lynch, I'd like to see it be TinVision. If not him, Atticus. If neither of them, Sephiroth. I do think, though, that if we want the most information from a lynch, Sephiroth would be the best option of the three. I suppose CKD is an option for the same reasons, but I believe there are more players connected to Seph.

[destructor]

Oh, and I think the town needs to hold Aimee to that post. I don't think her absence is scummy at all, but that doesn't mean she isn't scum who has avoided the radar for legitimate reasons.

And what about that Flameaxe? Has he even posted any content?

Mod: can Flameaxe be prodded, if he hasn't already?

[JDodge]

Flameaxe has already been prodded.

[joost]

I've been significantly less impressed with joosts play later in this game compared to his play earlier. He was scum-hunting and even leading discussion earlier on, and I liked where he was going with it. But lately he seems to have been jumping onto other's case without contributing much himself.

Yeah I haven't really been into this game lately, I'm kinda disappointed in all the lurkers. I could say the same about you though, until your last post you didn't really do much scum hunting.

I'll give my current list of suspects now, from high to low.

CKD: He's burdened with the heritage of Dusterhan. I won't repeat what I thought about him. CKD has been the opposite of Duster, posting a lot and being aggresive. But his logic tends to be flawed and that trick he pulled with Seph smelled like scum to me. Then there's the constant Vanilla Townie claim, I'm not really sure what he's trying to do here. Maybe he's hoping that people will believe him and back off. But if it's true that he would rather have him lynched than a power role, he doesn't need to repeat he's vanilla. I have a hard time believing him and that's why he's my no. 1 suspect and I think he's a good lynch for today.

Tinvision: He's been quiet lately, maybe

TV needs a prod

. His scummy behaviour happened a long time ago. His strange random voting behaviour and the quick vote on Duster right after a post in which he says we shouldn't. I also find it strange that he uses a lot of words to defend himself and as little as possible to argue his case on others. This is usually a scum tell. I'm willing to lynch him too if there is a large enough bandwagon.

OpposedForce: This is purely based on Knucks play, the odd Duster vote made him stand out to me. OF did not add much to this game as yet, though his LoS did not seem very scummy to me. I would not lynch him right now if I had the chance. But he's high on my suspect list.

Kabenon: I don't know about him, he's pretty active in the game and he doesn't seem to be a lurker. But he also suddenly changed his mind about Duster too, but that seems to be a trend in this game. He did appeal to emotions a lot as Shanba indicated but after reading his posts in isolation it seems that he might just be careful not to pick fights with any pro-town players. I think he's slightly more likely to be scum than town.

Aimee: Atticus' post did show that Aimee is not adding much to the game. She's been absent and this is her style but she's usually more eloquent and her posting is more thorough if she does post in other games I've read. Here she's just not putting in the effort, and I'm inclined to think that is because she's scum in this game. But it could also be her busy schedule. Not a good lynch yet, but I hope she posts more and adds more content.

Atticus: I think what he are seeing of Atticus is his style and can't really see anything more scummy than the fact that he posts oneliners. But his effort to add content by posting his suspicions of Aimee make me think he's likely to be town.

Flameaxe: I'm not sure where to put him an the list. Basically he's been invisible as was his predecessor. He could be lurking scum, but just as likely be lurking town. He's not helping the town though.

Vampyrusddg: He seems to be actively scumhunting when he's active. I'd put him in the town category. He raises some new arguments which is always a good thing, though I don't believe Atticus was trying to signal to Duster.

Sephiroth: Is active and aggressive but I think his logic is correct and I see very little scummy behaviour from him. The only thing that was scummy was his refusal to vote for Duster while claiming he was a good lynch. I have a strong pro-town feeling about him.

Shanba: Has been actively scumhunting. Has added new pov's to the game and he has a good case on Kabenon. Also there was very little scummy about Nirp. Very likely to be town.

Destructor: When he's active he's posting like a good pro-town player. Not afraid to argue against the masses and raises solid points on his suspects. He's in my eyes least likely to be scum. If he is scum he's very good at it.

[Atticus]

Probably could have waited to post those findings. Would have been more effective If there had been one explosive post at the end (still hoping for it) and not during the whole Sephiroth/karmadog aftermath.

[Shanba]

I can see Shanba's Post 342 and 380 as evidence of a connection to Sephiroth. His 'case' on Seph was half-hearted. He superficially expresses suspicion of Seph without ever decisively stating that anything is scummy. I also didn't think his case on kab was better than the one that already existed. Interestingly, both TinVision and Atticus commented that Shanba's 343 was insightful, Atticus even calling it agreeable.

Sephiroth is slightly different. Every time he posts, I get a reasonable vibe from what he is saying - he seems to be contributing actively, and hunting for scum. However, as soon as the pressure dies down off him again, he disappears. Early d1: he is contributing, get's attacked, defends himself then disappears. It's only when he comes under attack again, this time from ckd that he begins to contribute again. This is a type of behaviour I have often seen from scum (and in fact done as scum myself)

Then there's the "he was trying to lynch someone he thought was a townie" thing. Sephiroth's justification here is fine. Unless he is scum, he cannot know whether dusterhan is a townie or not. He can believe so, but it is not definitive. If we then look at Sephiroth's logic in this light, it makes perfect sense. As far as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Sephiroth believed that duster was at best a worthless (or even dangerous in endgame) townie or at best a scum. Despite the fact that he felt the first scenario was more likely, it was a lynch that wouldn't hurt town much if duster turned out to be town. Better to waste mislynches on useless townies than actie contributing townies.

Ok, so here are the relevant parts of the two bits you say are connection to Sephiroth. Firstly, I don't see how you think the case I push on him is half-hearted. I say quite firmly that it's something I find scummy and it's only the fact that his posts feel pro-town that have him lowish on my suspicion list. Especially when you compare it to the other cases I made in that post against OF and Joost, one of which is based on a single early post and the other a sort of vague gut feeling.

The second post, I am defending Sephiroth. However, this is more because CKD's craplogic attack annoys me than because of any thoughts I have about Sephiroth's alignment. You'll see if you look at my other games that I frequently deconstruct arguments I feel are based on craplogic, as CKD's was, because I don't think craplogic is a good way to find scum.

Then you state that you don't think my case on Kabenon was better than the one that already existed. If this is true, back it up. Show where the points I had made had been made earlier.

Finally, you seem to be trying to link me to Atticus and Tinvision as well - simply because they liked my post (if you're not, I don't see why you brought it up - do you have an alternative explanation?). Considering these are two players who have been under pressure a lot this game, it worries me that you are trying to link me to them.

[OpposedForce]

Re-read coming up.

[destructor]

Shanba, I think your argument against Seph in 348 wasn't based on anything really scummy. You refer to his behaviour as a scum-tell, but I don't see it like that. I might even call it a reach, and I call it half-hearted because, even before reading Seph's response, I thought it would have been easy to defend against. 380 still reads very much like a defence of Seph than a rebuttal of CKDs logic. Only one sentence in the paragraph even refers to logic at all.

I didn't say that the points you raised about kabenon had already been bought up. By saying I didn't think the case was any better than the one that was already stated, I was saying that I didn't think it was particularly good evidence of him being scum.

About Tin and Atticus, no, I'm not

trying

to link them to you, given that the link already exists by virtue of posts. Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you. Of course I'm going to bring this up.