Mini Normal 1809: Game Over

[Dierfire]

VOTE COUNT 4.04

MathBlade (2): Wingback, Elyse
No Lynch (1): MathBlade

No Vote (3): BBmolla, Killthestory, Egg

With 6 players living, a lynch requires 4/6 votes.

TIMER

(expired on 2016-08-24 22:00:00)

NOTES

None

[Elyse]

Ok cool ignore my request for quotes showing that

[Egg]

V/LA until Saturday

Working 16 hours today and tomorrow. Can check in between shifts if the thread doesn't explode.

Also gonna be away Sunday because I work Saturday night until 7am then golfing at 10am like an idiot.

[Wingback]

I want to echo killthestory and Elyse in saying Wing didn't "catch" mathblade. Math replaced Blank who has been discussed for a lynch since Day 1.

Given you refuse to vote Math, I don't think it's fair to say you "caught" Math.

[Elyse]

V/LA until Sunday

[Dierfire]

Prodding BBmolla

[MathBlade]

Still think No lynch is the best here guys.

Wingback FYI Egg should not be conftown to Elyse.

There are a multitude of different reasons scum won't hammer there up to but not including:

1) Egg was offline
2) Egg didn't want to risk a quick Unvote and be busted while writing the post.
3) A strategic no vote in the case of it being their buddy so they can make that argument.

Votes matter but the why is equally important.

No lynch people.

[Wingback]

For all those townreading Elyse (Egg and KTS), I'm going to list out the scum motivation I see in her play. Better to do this at this point when I'm not conf-biased. This is going to be in absurd mind-numbing detail so if you hate walls, feel free to read the tl;dr version. But I'm town and on the suspect list of at least two other townies so I'm hoping this will both a) show you why Elyse is scum, and b) help you get a read on me by seeing my internal thought processes.

The first ping I got from Elyse when I replaced in and started catching up was her reaction to Vedith when she backs off of her initial BBMolla push. The push itself was weak but I want to focus more on the back-off in Post 181. I thought it was odd but not necessarily scum-motivated. Vedith correctly questions it and there was nothing at all scummy about his post but Elyse has a ridiculously overblown reaction (Post 197) to a completely innocuous post and scumreads Vedith for it. It looked to me like her awkward back-off was bait to see if anyone pushed her on it. Oftentimes, scum players who can hold their own in an argument try to get scumread by weaker town players so that those town players get overconfident in their pushes and alienate the rest of the town in a way that they don't get followed on their read. In effect, she's making Vedith

more

certain about his scumread on her to the point where he can't rationally explain it to the rest of the town. Once no one understands what you are ranting about, that makes you a much easier lynch which is exactly what happened with Vedith. It would be a fairly advanced scum strategy to pull off successfully but what makes great scumplay isn't posting convincing cases to mislynch players but baiting them into playing in a way that'll get them scumread by other townies.

Next look at the confidence in her Blankface read (Post 385 + Post 392). Given that, it stands out that most of her play around the Blankface/Vedith wagons was to shoot down the momentum on Blankface based on the reasoning that she doesn't want to out another role (Post 824). But more importantly, come D2, she completely forgets both the Blankface and BBMolla reads and goes for Hoopla instead. The "Masq is a good vote" statement looks like perfunctory distancing from a partner while laying down suspicion there so she can smoothly bus if the need arises. I initially townread her push on Hoopla because it seemed like she showed initiative in attacking one of the stronger players in this game and is a large part of why I reversed my scumread on her. But closer examination shows that Hoopla was the first to start getting suspicious of Elyse (Post 767) so I see this more as Elyse taking the pro-active stance to put Hoopla on the backfoot before the latter can start attacking. Regardless of your alignment, when you are the aggressor and your argument makes sense, you come off a lot more convincing than the person who's reacting to you.

Coming to Elyse's actual scumread on Hoopla (Post 885), it literally comes down to "Hoopla didn't push Blankface hard enough." That's it and nothing else. The entire wall makes this single point. Elyse is careful to not tie them together but it comes off as a post that is setting up the stage to push Hoopla should Blankface ever flip. If Blankface were town, there's no reason a scum-Hoopla wouldn't push harder since she can out an additional role. In fact this was Elyse's biggest reason for wanting Vedith dead over Blankface. So, this case heavily implies scum-to-scum association between Hoopla/Blankface. But then she does a little 3-card monte trick and pushes Blankface out of her primary reads (Post 985) because of the double-stalled wagons on D1 which is the same reasoning Hoopla used to read Blankface as town earlier (Post 857). So, now she's arguing that Blankface is town which completely undermines her Hoopla scumread because it basically amounted to "Hoopla didn't push Blankface hard enough." It's also odd that from here until Hoopla's lynch, Hoopla is always Elyse's top scumread when logic dictates that her Hoopla read was dependent on Blankface flipping scum. Besides Blankface quickly got voted up to L-2 so what was Hoopla supposed to do here exactly to push him harder?

When Masq starts getting wagoned, Elyse starts tying Hoopla to Masq instead re-inforcing Egg's thoughts about them being a potential team (Post 899). Switches to Masq when Masq's wagon picks up while making sure to tie Hoopla to Masq (Post 913).

Post 1122 is the most interesting post where it's apparent that Elyse is making up reads. She explicitly implies that Hoopla/Blank are a scumteam by pairing them together and saying that Hoopla had no intention of getting Blank lynched. It doesn't make any sense from a town-Blank standpoint because to a scum-Hoopla, it's all the same whether Vedith or Blank get lynched but in Blank's case, she outs a PR. Following through with this logic, she offers two potential scumteams (Masq/Blank/Hoopla or Masq/Blank/BBMolla) at the end of day two. Two things to note here: 1) Blank is scum in both scenarios, Hoopla is only scum in one. 2) Her scumread on Hoopla is dependent on Blank flipping scum. Based on this, it's incredibly scummy that she only wants Hoopla-blood all of D3. Her play upon Hoopla's claim (Post 1268, Post 1270) mirrors her play on Vedith's claim (Post 788, Post 800, Post 824). Both times Blankface was the opposing wagon, both times Elyse clearly supported the counterwagon to Blank. This despite Elyse's scumread on Blank.

Also, Post 1157 contradicts Post 1203. Is Hoopla-scum keeping BBMolla in her pocket or casting shade on him? Elyse just uses whichever argument fits her agenda. Then the solid Blank scumread fades away for no reason and it becomes Hoopla/Blank or Hoopla/Wingback. Then suddenly, that changes to saying that my read on Hoopla was "off" where she's treating me as town rather than say "obvscum defending his partner." Then there's her big post where she calls my play spectacular and I've pointed out every scummy thing she's done since then.

[Wingback]

The timeline of Elyse's read on Egg makes no sense. She says in Post 1438 at the beginning of D3 that she refuses the vote Egg. Yet, when I ask for reasoning about why she continued to townread Egg after Hoopla flipped town, she said that Egg's reachout to her and asking her for a case on Math showed town motivation (Post 1488). Yet, this happened

after

her Post 1438 where she said she refuses to vote Egg. The timeline is off and her read is fake and this fake read is one of the things that solidified to me that Egg was town and Mathblade/Elyse were the scumteam.

[Wingback]

On my play, I wish I had figured this out a little sooner. I think blaming everyone else for the Hoopla lynch might not be entirely accurate and is partly my frustration speaking. I think if I had the game figured out on D3, I could have gotten Grendel to sway his vote to Mathblade at the end and we'd have lynched Elyse today. So, this is on me for not solving the game soon enough. We can still win though because I solved it now but the gamestate changed to where I now have to convince everyone that I'm not scum.

I think I was outplayed by Elyse this day phase and it's not something I'd admit readily because I have a lot of confidence in my ability as a town player. Elyse not answering my questions seemed like baiting me to vote her so she could 1v1 analogous to her Vedith push. She saw that I was pretty set in scumreading her and decided that I'm the one she needs to push to win the game.

I keep hearing from Egg that Elyse is winning her argument with me and I literally don't know how to better explain it in a way that persuades you. You say that my meta read is trash and based on one game, that Elyse's dissonance in calling my play spectacular makes sense, that her ATE is town, and so on and so forth. I feel like whatever argument I bring up is shot down because apparently Elyse's arguments are all better, and every alignment-indicative thing I point out is deemed not null or worse, completely ignored.

I can accept losing to Elyse as she played so well but I'd hate it if we don't lynch Mathblade given she not only was obvious scum but cleared a townie I had doubts about (BBMolla) and made her partner really obvious, and I'm not losing to Math if I can help it.

I don't know what to do about Elyse. I got frustrated with you shooting down every post I made interpreting it in the worst possible manner, and not investigating how Elyse's fake-read on you contrasts with my genuine one. I'm putting all of my heart and soul out there hoping you guys see that I'm town here and if that's not enough, I got outplayed worse than I've ever been before and I'm hitting the limit of my ability. I could accept losing because I didn't figure out the scumteam out earlier on D3 and pushed Math over Hoopla and it's that little time lag that was the difference between winning and losing because if Math was gone and we still had Hoopla, I literally cannot see a scenario where we lose in that hypothetical.

I don't know how you are interpreting Elyse's arguments as better. Perhaps it's charisma, perhaps she's skilled at figuring out what people are thinking and playing to her audience. Perhaps she's good at tailoring her arguments to her audience (clearly I'm terrible at it given I wrote a massive wall to convince KTS, BBMolla, and Egg). Whatever she's doing she's doing it well and I'm completely lost here as to how I can make you see that I'm town but I really am town and as much as I hate to admit it, I feel like I've been thoroughly beaten.

[Wingback]

Forgot to post the Tl;dr I promised:

Why Elyse is scum: The short version

1. Elyse's push on Vedith looks to me like she was baiting him to push her given I don't think a town-Elyse would have found it suspicious of Vedith to ask a very reasonable question.
   
2. Elyse's read on Hoopla was solely because she didn't push Blankface harder on D1 and is dependent on Blankface being scum, yet Hoopla is always her primary push.
   
3. On D1 and D3, Elyse votes the counterwagon to Blankface's slot despite scumreading Blankface and subtly pushes those lynches through.
   
4. Elyse accuses Hoopla of keeping BBMolla in her pocket while simultaneously accusing her of throwing shade on him using whichever argument suits her agenda.
   
5. Her read on Egg is faked because early D4 after Hoopla flipped, she said she was confident in an Egg townread, yet when asked why, she points to Egg's reachout to her which came later and reeks of needing Egg as an ally.

If I'm not communicating any of these points clearly, feel free to look at the long version to see exactly what I mean.

[Egg]

I want to echo killthestory and Elyse in saying Wing didn't "catch" mathblade. Math replaced Blank who has been discussed for a lynch since Day 1.

Given you refuse to vote Math, I don't think it's fair to say you "caught" Math.

1) I didn't make that refusal
2) I didn't claim to have caught math

Don't have time to read everything else.

[MathBlade]

TLDR Wingback is screaming because he is desperate and he is scum.

Gotta go to work but we should be no lynching.

Wingback wants to end the game now before they run out of places to hide with their scumreads.

[Elyse]

Just checking in...looks like I missed some awkward AtE from Wingback. Nice.

I won't be able to post like I usually do until Sunday. Moving back to school and getting drunk off my ass and such

[Wingback]

Lol at both the scumbags above.

[Dierfire]

Seeking replacement for BBmolla

[Egg]

That's annoying...

[Dierfire]

Prodding Killthestory

[MathBlade]

....Nothing much to respond to. Waiting on KTS to come back if they have any questions.

We should be no lynching. Always no lynch in MyLo when you can.

[Killthestory]

VOTE: No lynch

Safest option.

[Killthestory]

wot no one's posting anymore.

[Wingback]

Well, I listed out the reasons I thought Elyse was scum and no one (including you) engaged with them so I don't really have anything to add.

I will say though that even if we no lynch today, we still have to figure out scum tomorrow. The only information we get from no lynching is to see who scum kill and that's something that'll be steeped in WIFOM and not as reliable a source of information as reading the game thread would be.

Given you are going to the extent of claiming I didn't "catch" Mathblade, this might be a good time to back your words up with a vote. If you think it's Mathblade + Elyse/Wingback, that's still a reason to vote Mathblade.

[MathBlade]

Lol was that like posted out of scum chat?

If you think it's MathBlade+Elyse/Wingback.

Generally people refer to themselves as "me".

The thing we gain is one confirmed townie before tomorrow. There is no reason to vote now.

[MathBlade]

Prod dodge as will be out with friends when 24 hours would hit.

[Dierfire]

Expedience replaces BBmolla.
Welcome, and thanks for helping out!