Mini 517: Tree Stump Mafia: Game Over

[DrippingGoofball]

You blame the educational system for my crap logic. Kinda funny actually. Seeing as how I was a wiz kid in math. Algebra, geometry, trig, calculus... Sucked at physics though... Did not see that one coming.

Yeah, stats are special that way.

@ SilverPhoenix

No one made a connection between Quag and Adele as being scumpair yesterday.

That's why it's called "distancing" - they fooled you completely, didn't they.

I don't see how it could have backfired due to that fact and that Quag lynch went through anyway.

Au contraire, it did backfire: Quag was lynched. That's exactly backfiring. They overdid it, they lost a member. But they probably, with the benefit of hindsight, figure that the townie points Adele earned going up against Quag will carry her through endgame, or maybe win the game for the scum.

Unfortunately for the scum, Goofball barged in and cracked the game, haha.

[SilverPhoenix]

Unfortunately for the scum, Goofball barged in and cracked the game, haha.

Your view of Adele/Quag as scum is intriguing and I understand why you made it, but I just don't see it really as possible. I really don't think they could have fooled all of us in the game (except for you, of course).
I have to ask

scot

and/or

JDodge

: Do you think DGB's situation is possible? Also, what do you think of Quag now that he turned up scum? We never really heard (or asked for that matter) about your final thoughts on Quag.

[scotmany12]

I haven't really been viewing Adele as scum SP. Its definitely possible, but I would never put my money on it. Same thing with MoS.

Now, I still believe that quag did not look at his role pm. I still believe that he was a bad lynch. We got lucky with him coming up as scum. I'm not really sure if you are asking for anything else.

[Korlash]

@ Scot: Yeah I was pretty much hoping you would ask for that eventually. I wanted to do a complete list for you at the time too but lets face it, I am lazy ><

On that note I will make a list ASAP but I just replaced into another game so my time tonight will be spent on that. I will either get to the list afterwards, tomorrow morning, or at the latest tomorrow after work. Just a quick note to let you know I think your request is fair, justified, and I am not trying to ignore it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

However, you cannot use Quag's action of directing a predetermined bandwagon against her as evidence of a mutual distancing plan.

BINGO!

Scum don't go bananas distancing each other

according to some plan

. They just do it. Spontaneous scum combustion. It just happens, planned or not. More likely than not, totally unplanned. So, by my criteria, Adele is still scum. Regardless of scumchat monkey business.

So you're willing to say that Quag's Adele-randomwagon had no bearing on his alignment or relationship with her, but her attacks on him were still distancing?

[mith]

Korlash, I must've skimmed over that sentence in my reading and skipped ahead to your numbers. So, sorry for that.

I'm not sure I buy that you "tried to fit [your] thing into [mine]", though, particularly given the end of post 354. You seem to be simultaneously saying that your personal rankings have scotmany12 at 100%, JDodge at 99%, me at 65% (?), everyone else at less than 60% (...which doesn't really fit with the originally listing, which had me sixth), but also that if forced to give actual percentage likelihoods adding up to 200% you would leave the 100 and 99 while dropping everyone else into the remaining 1%. That just doesn't make sense. Am I the only one that thinks this is odd?

MoS, I don't think she said anything of the kind.

DripDrip, your certainty about Adele concerns me (just as Korlash's certainty about scotmany12 and JDodge concerns me). As far as I can tell from the back and forth, it's based mostly on Quag and Adele voting for each other, and that such "distancing" was probably not planned, but was just a subconscious inclination that scum have. Which is true, to some extent, but as MoS correctly point out

scum don't always distance

- often they deliberately avoid arguing with each other to avoid people like you who are focusing on distancing.

The main thing that sets Adele apart in your mind (again, as far as I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong) from the others on the Quag-wagon was that Quag voted for her. Yet, even ignoring the "cheating" (I leave the discussion on whether it was cheating for another thread - it was certainly questionable, and probably should be explicitly against the rules), you could take a look at other threads on the forum and see that Quag has something against Adele. It is not at all farfetched to think that Quag would come into a game planning to vote for her before he knew his own alignment.

I do actually find Adele slightly suspect - mostly because I've noticed several buddying-up type comments directed my way - but I think you need to take the blinders off and consider other options, even if you end up sticking with your vote in the end. We're not really getting anywhere with this argument, since I think most of the rest of us agree that your case completely falls apart when taking into account the scumchat issue.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd just like to take a second to clarify that even if it

doesn't

qualify as cheating, it's still an out-of-game effect that is not dependent on alignment.

And Mith, I know she didn't, but that's not going to stop me. She's playing semantics to pounce on the fact that I used the word "plan". She's avoiding the issue at hand by strawmanning to tangentially related topics now. So I'm focusing on the issue at hand again.

[mith]

Oh, I agree with that first bit, but since DripDrip is ignoring the out-of-game effect

on the grounds

that it's cheating, I felt it worth pointing out that the Quag-distancing theory is still pretty weak even without the application of scumchat knowledge.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, I wasn't disagreeing with you, your post just reminded me that other people might need clarification. Same wavelength =P

[Adele]

Goofball, there's something about your argument that's been tweaking at the back of my head. You're "certain" that I'm scum because "quag and I distanced" ie. because he attacked me for no reason and I attacked him. Except, I think that my behaviour was the

right

behaviour, and I don't think you've argued that it wasn't.

It's kinda like you've insulted me without criticising me. "You Suck" is all very well and good, but you've not pointed to anything

wrong

. If you disagree with anything I've said or done, say so, but don't just say that X behaviour was distancing-like, when it was so justified.
As to your claim that I didn't want Quagmire lynched: I gotta say, I don't know if the lynch would've happened if I'd not been here.

Especially

when we had Bapa Bail in. I worried at points that I was fighting a losing battle, but I continued to fight it. I don't want to get arrogant or anything here - there were others without whom quag'd still be walking around - but I was a pivotal part of his death, and you say I didn't want it???

If I'd not wanted him dead, I'd've given him 48 hours instead of 24 (BOCWATT)

which brings me to:

I do actually find Adele slightly suspect - mostly because I've noticed several buddying-up type comments directed my way

yeah, I was kinda expecting that.
OK. I'm embarrased to admit it, but I do have a weisd (small) fangirl thing towards you ("The Mith; The Legend"), and then right when I'm worried Quag's slipping by you came into the game like a bloody Knight and flipped totally from BB's behaviour to getting him dead.
And now I'm all Sandra Bullock-y. It's very annoying, I half expect to spill coffee over you or something.
I'll try to dial it back. If you could say something I strongly disagree with, that'd help .

(by the way, if this is ever mentioned after the game ends lives will be lost )

Annnnd

back to DGB.

If I'd behaved

exactly

as I did yesterday and Quagmire had come up pro-town, would you now be saying that I done murdered a townie so I'm surely scum? I'm rather inclined to think you would.
It

is

possible for a townie to be aggressive. It's even possible for a townie to be rightfully aggressive towards someone who's developed an irrational wagonfever on them.

[Adele]

No posting until Monday or Tuesday, no access.

Today's Thursday.

Mod

: any chance of a prod on Aimee? ...please ?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Adele wants to be a minion.

[DrippingGoofball]

Well hullow again, Miss Bullock! How come the sight of my avatar doesn't make you buckle at the knees and stutter? It should, because I was exactly like you when I was a young pup, meaning that there is a fair chance that you will grow into a goofball.

You're "certain" that I'm scum because "quag and I distanced" ie. because he attacked me for no reason and I attacked him. Except, I think that my behaviour was the

right

behaviour, and I don't think you've argued that it wasn't.

You reacted exactly as predicted as scum unexpectedly being bus'ed by her buddy on Day 1. With fire and outrage. As town, you would have dismissed it as Quaglunacy, and paid him far less attention.

If I'd behaved

exactly

as I did yesterday and Quagmire had come up pro-town, would you now be saying that I done murdered a townie so I'm surely scum?.

No! That would make no sense whatsoever. Only I am reckless enough to sink my fangs into a single player and not let go with nothing more than gut feeling, that's why I am a terrible player. What scum wants to drive a townie wagon, shovel the coal, and look out the caboose all at once? No... they only do that with each other to earn themselves townie points.

See... you were all over Quagscum... but you know I'm town, so you don't want to be seen tossing coal into my engine. Your reaction to my attack on you is quite a bit different - plus you know I'm right, obviously

[DrippingGoofball]

Adele wants to be a minion.

mithion?

[Adele]

Well hullow again, Miss Bullock! How come the sight of my avatar doesn't make you buckle at the knees and stutter? It should, because I was exactly like you when I was a young pup, meaning that there is a fair chance that you will grow into a goofball.

...
I'm trying, here, to show you a basic level of respect, keep my ire under control, and play straight.

You are deliberately saying things that I think you know I'll take offense at, for the fun of it. You call me immature and suggest I'll turn into you, when you

know

I don't appreciate your approach or your outlook.

No matter how amusing you find me, I'm going to have to ask - and I'm being serious here - that you show me more courtesy. I don't stand to be spoken to like that by anyone.

_____________________________

You reacted exactly as predicted as scum unexpectedly being bus'ed by her buddy on Day 1. With fire and outrage. As town, you would have dismissed it as Quaglunacy, and paid him far less attention.

1. Quag apparently decided to attack me before the game started, so his behaviour on that note is separate from his status as evildoer
2. Quag's pettiness towards me was only a very small part of why I pushed for his lynch. The main factor for me was that he expected to be treated as de facto townie regardless of antitown play for the whole of D1 (which if we'd not got scum so soon could've lasted through

several

town stumpings and lasted a more like a third to a half of the game).
3. Fire? I don't think I was particularly firey or outraged. Annoyed, irritated, frustrated at his stubborn lack of logic, yes. Firey and outraged, no.

If I'd behaved exactly as I did yesterday and Quagmire had come up pro-town, would you now be saying that I done murdered a townie so I'm surely scum?.

No! That would make no sense whatsoever. Only I am reckless enough to sink my fangs into a single player and not let go with nothing more than gut feeling, that's why I am a terrible player. What scum wants to drive a townie wagon, shovel the coal, and look out the caboose all at once? No... they only do that with each other to earn themselves townie points.

Are you saying that if Quagmire had turned up town yesterday, you'd think me a townie, (therefore, that my play makes sense in a townie), or that given

my

behaviour yesterday it's implausible that

Quagmire

could've

been town

?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I smell a fallacy...

[DrippingGoofball]

You call me immature

On average I am twice the age of the denizens of this site. All I said is that you remind me of myself when I was younger! Once, long ago, I was quite a mature young lady myself. It was meant in jest, not in derision.

and suggest I'll turn into you, when you

know

I don't appreciate your approach or your outlook.

You know how I play mafia, and nothing else. Beyond that, nothing wrong with being a bit of a goofball. In my experience the goofiest goofballs congregate in molecular biology labs. Being a goofball helps a great deal when your contribution to science involves glow in the dark fruit flies.

I'm going to have to ask that you show me more courtesy

I have only the greatest respect for you. It is my nature to express this respect with some mixture of humor and familiarity. I am way outside the boundaries of the game here, but each one of us on this Earth has a different language when it comes to expressing how we appreciate one another. As I type this, I have a smile on my face, and a smile in my heart. Please accept that I want nothing more than to put a smile on your face, and in your heart. You could have answered with a joke, "I'd rather turn into a tree stump than a goofball," or even something actually funny, and you could have made me laugh. I am just a goofball after all.

Back to the game.
_____________________________

1. Quag apparently decided to attack me before the game started, so his behaviour on that note is separate from his status as evildoer

Well, here comes the cheating again. I don't really know if he did. And I would need out-of-game information to be sure. With dates etc. Not fair to the game, and not relevant to alignment, because you might be scumbuddies just the same.

2. Quag's pettiness towards me was only a very small part of why I pushed for his lynch. The main factor for me was that he expected to be treated as de facto townie regardless of antitown play for the whole of D1

If YOU would have been lynched instead of him, and you turned up scum, then his play might have looked very pro-town (not to me, mind you).

3. Fire? I don't think I was particularly firey or outraged. Annoyed, irritated, frustrated at his stubborn lack of logic, yes. Firey and outraged, no.

Outraged, annoyed, all under the umbrella of negative responses. Which word you choose is a matter of flavor, but it doesn't change the negative into positive.

Are you saying that if Quagmire had turned up town yesterday, you'd think me a townie, (therefore, that my play makes sense in a townie), or that given

my

behaviour yesterday it's implausible that

Quagmire

could've

been town

?

That's what I am saying, only because that kind of Day 1 animosity is reserved between 2 scums, and, more rarely, a couple of townies (in which case the scum sits back and laughs). I think it would be much more rare between a townie and a scum. The rarest possibility; not impossible. Rarest. In other words... I think it's more likely that you are two scum, or two townies. And since Quag was scum... I am here thinking two scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

I smell a fallacy...

No fallacy at all. As I explained. Most likely two scum distancing; next most likely two townies and the scum is laughing. A townie and a scum? Least likely scenario.

No fallacy.

[Adele]

1. Quag apparently decided to attack me before the game started, so his behaviour on that note is separate from his status as evildoer

Well, here comes the cheating again. I don't really know if he did. And I would need out-of-game information to be sure. With dates etc. Not fair to the game, and not relevant to alignment, because you might be scumbuddies just the same.

I thought this particularly notable.

Might

be? More to the point, not relevant to alignment?

His

behaviour,

his

cheating, not relevant to

his

alignment - yet you deduce

my

alignment off the back of said behaviour.

In any case, you might not like what he did, DGB (I don't either), but the town at large seems to consider it "canon". Your argument is built on sand.

Most likely two scum distancing; next most likely two townies and the scum is laughing. A townie and a scum? Least likely scenario.

Hmm. So, if this behaviour can manifest between two townies, why can't it manifest between a townie (behaving like one of the two townies in your scenario) and a scum (responding in kind) - for example, me, the innocent, and Quag, either:
a. doing as he'd seen townies do, yelling in circles (for the record, that's not how I see my D1 interaction with q, but my perception of your perception)
b. finding himself, as townies do, unable to extricate himself
c. being a stubborn scum
or
d. Actually telling the truth about not having read his role PM (I don't know how likely that is, but it's possible)

now, a question:

Do you think, given what was known at the time, that my level of aggression D1 was inappropriate?

[DrippingGoofball]

Do you think, given what was known at the time, that my level of aggression D1 was inappropriate?

Maybe for you it was appropriate, but relative to what I would consider an average reaction, I feel that you reacted much more than you should have. If he had decided to go after you for non-game reasons, that would be a reason to react less, rather than more. So it really does look like two scum at each other's throat overdoing Day 1 distancing to me.

[Korlash]

As promised main points against Scot:

1) The reference Quag made in his Firstish post where he more or less calls you two by name. That along with the fact you keep insisting the "Adele" thing was PREDETERMINED! And the only talk before the game was between mafia partners. That is more or less end of story there. Plain and simple, cut and dry, in my mind you two claimed mafia.

- More to the point, a known scum told you to do something, and you did it. Random or not.

2) You seemed to continually put words in people's mouths while providing a defense for Qug and attacking Silver.

- More to the point, you twisted words to protect a known scum and attack a known town.

3) You seemed more inclined to DEFEND Quag day one, instead of just PREVENTING the bad lynch.

-More to the point, You mostly overlooked any reason the lynch had merit, focused solely on the point it was weakest, and then tried to use it as a reason to keep quag alive.

4) Your post 127, where you state plain and simple that Silver had a case if Quag ever turned up scum, which he did. SO logically there is some case against you even you have admitted to.

5) Your post 118 contradiction where you admit to believing Quag looked at his Role PM. Your reasons for this contradiction: A mistake. Well good job. You keep stumping town off mistakes like this and you won't need another night!

6) You wanted us to wait until tomorrow to focus on Quag, thus you WANTED us to go to night instead of making him stump there and then. A very anti-town thing in my opinion.

7) You and JD seem to agree with each other a lot, work with each other on things, use he case cases almost all the time against the same people, and yet have never once commented on anything scummy the other has done.

8) You say we should not focus on the people who d3efended Quag, but more on the people who lynched him. Seems illogical.

9) The way you kept changing your attack on silver, day one it was "yours scum for believing he did not check his role!" Day two it was "your scum for saying you believed he checked his role yesterday but today you don't!"

- In other words, You attacked him for Changing his mind, when he never did.

10) No initial reasons for votes... (Most of the time.) Or at the very least weak and meaningless reasons...

11) You claim JD is the "easy lynch" for today... Why?

We can start with those...

[scotmany12]

1) It happened before the game started. Before the roles were even sent out. I don't know who clearer I have to make this for you. You have 4 people who admitted this, so one of them could not be scum. You and DGB seem to be the only one who are not accepting this.
2) I don't ever recall putting words in someone's mouth. I'm sure I never did it to silver even though he said I did.
3) Not once did I say quag was town, not once did I say he was scum. I don't recall defending him like you said. In fact, I was trying to prevent the bad lynch.
4) Yeah I said that. So what. I truly think that is the only thing you have against me is my relation with quag. Yeah I tried to prevent his lynch, yeah well so did you.
5) Wait what? Yeah it was a mistake. You can believe me or not, but I think my other actions kinda defend my stance.
6) I didn't feel like he should be stumped. I believed that he had not looked at his role pm, and thus we should at least ignore him for the time being.
7) Maybe cause I don't find him scummy. I've played with jdodge before. He is playing a lot like he did before, and he was town. As far as I can see, this is how jdodge plays. So while he hasn't acted townish, he hasn't acted scummy either.
8) When did I say that?
9) Really, cause I never attacked him day two.
10) Correction: Vote. Only vote without reason was my random vote for Adele. I had my reasons for Silver and I have my reasons for desisted which I have explained.
11) Cause he is. Scum focus on the easy lynch. Me and Jdodge, who were against the quag lynch, are obvious suspects already. Scum are going to come out and push the lynch on both of us because unintelligent players are going to jump to conclusions and hop onto the wagon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I smell a fallacy...

No fallacy at all. As I explained. Most likely two scum distancing; next most likely two townies and the scum is laughing. A townie and a scum? Least likely scenario.

No fallacy.

Actually, I was referring to Adele's post...

On that note,

vacation until Monday

[Adele]

I smell a fallacy...

No fallacy at all. As I explained. Most likely two scum distancing; next most likely two townies and the scum is laughing. A townie and a scum? Least likely scenario.

No fallacy.

Actually, I was referring to Adele's post...

Oh. I thought you meant DGB too. Lemme doublecheck that post...

okay. I can see one thing you might be referring to:

Are you saying that if Quagmire had turned up town yesterday, you'd think me a townie, (therefore, that my play makes sense in a townie), or that given my behaviour yesterday it's implausible that Quagmire could've been town?

You might think this is a false dichotomy. I disagree. Not all dichotomies are false, and I think this is a true dichotomy. If I'm in error, then please correct me.

If, on the other hand, you're referring to something else, enlighten me. On Monday [/quote]

[DrippingGoofball]

Are you saying that if Quagmire had turned up town yesterday, you'd think me a townie, (therefore, that my play makes sense in a townie), or that given my behaviour yesterday it's implausible that Quagmire could've been town?

You might think this is a false dichotomy. I disagree. Not all dichotomies are false, and I think this is a true dichotomy. If I'm in error, then please correct me.

Is MoS scummy or what???

That's not a false dichotomy, it's a legitimate question.

MoS is just poking around, I've noticed a lot of his arguments aren't internally logical in this game. I wonder whether he feels he has to poke Adele now, because he defended her before.

Not sure what to make of this. Have to think.