Mini 500 - Cult Mafia - Game Over!

[vollkan]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #55

Oman[1](pwayne66)


Not Voting[5](Oman, vollkan, Tarhalindur, Trojan Horse, theopor_COD)

Can you understand why I don't like your vote, though?

In a LYLO situation, a strange and unexplained vote, justified only by "process of elimination" is scummy. I just did a PBPA of Oman and found nothing excessively scummy, yet alone voteworthy. If you can find a different angle, by all means go ahead; it's often the case that different people will read and weight things differently.

[pwayne66]

I suppose I can but then again I can't. I listed three reasons that Oman is the most scummy. One of the big ones was number three where I suggested that Oman needed some pressure. Can you understand why I might be frustrated that you just took the bullet for him?

[vollkan]

The three reasons?

1)

Process of Elimination

- This is NOT a reason to suspect someone. It is not positive evidence for somebody being scum. It may be a cause to want to read Oman more closely, but it doesn't make him suspicious. It might also suggest that you yourself are not reading hard enough.
2)

Contrived hammer vote

- There may be something to this. After all, Oman's justification was that a self-hammer will give us less information. What more did we learn other than that Oman was prepared to hammer, apparently to get information? Hence, there is some basis for calling it contrived.
3)

Need to squirm...Taking his position most suspicious too lightly

- And if he was getting edgy you would accuse him of being over-reactive; if he was ignoring it entirely you would accuse him of being evasive. Given the lack of any actual case, I fail to see precisely how Oman

should

have reacted to the suspicion. How people react to pressure/suspicion is more dependent on playstyle than anything else.

These are not reasons to vote somebody.

[vollkan]

One of the big ones was number three where I suggested that Oman needed some pressure. Can you understand why I might be frustrated that you just took the bullet for him?

On the pressure thing: By all means, go ahead and pressure him. But a mere vote does nothing without a case, or at least a potent question.

I didn't "take the bullet" by any means. All I am saying is that if you think Oman warrants pressure/suspicion you need to actually find evidence.

[pwayne66]

Dude, I know you pride yourself as being the "interrogator" and all, but you have already said this:

All I am saying is that if you think Oman warrants pressure/suspicion you need to actually find evidence.

...already, and I have responded, so what is it you want again?

[vollkan]

Nothing. I was just reiterating my point that a pressure vote is pointless when there is no case you are trying to get a response to, unless the person is lurking and you just want them to say something.

[pwayne66]

3) Need to squirm...Taking his position most suspicious too lightly - And if he was getting edgy you would accuse him of being over-reactive; if he was ignoring it entirely you would accuse him of being evasive. Given the lack of any actual case, I fail to see precisely how Oman should have reacted to the suspicion. How people react to pressure/suspicion is more dependent on playstyle than anything else.

This is funny, because I feel the same way about the position that you put me in. If I drop my vote and try to build a case, you will say that I am wishy-washy. If I maintain my vote and begin to ask questions, You will say that I am trying to appease you. If I do neither and maintain my vote without asking questions, you will say that I am maintaining a position without building a case.

Oman is not scum hunting and Oman is not trying to remove himself from suspicion. I fully intend to ask questions when I am ready to, but if it means I have to clear my strategy with you first, why don't you just do it and save us some time. I just didn't get the impression that you were interested in busting any balls but mine.

[vollkan]

This is funny, because I feel the same way about the position that you put me in. If I drop my vote and try to build a case, you will say that I am wishy-washy. If I maintain my vote and begin to ask questions, You will say that I am trying to appease you. If I do neither and maintain my vote without asking questions, you will say that I am maintaining a position without building a case.

Dropping your vote and building a case is not wishy-washy. When I accuse people of being "wishy-washy" I mean that they are saying things like "X could be town or scum but I don't know".

Keeping your vote and asking questions would not look like blatant appeasement; it's just a nulltell. Maintaining your vote and doing nothing will be useless.

My problem was the act of voting itself, so whether or not you maintain it doesn't bother me. What does bother me is if you don't look for evidence to substantiate it.

Oman is not scum hunting and Oman is not trying to remove himself from suspicion. I fully intend to ask questions when I am ready to, but if it means I have to clear my strategy with you first, why don't you just do it and save us some time. I just didn't get the impression that you were interested in busting any balls but mine.

Oman can't move himself from suspicion until he is questioned. You don't need to "clear your

strategy

" (interesting word choice....) with me, but you do need to produce a tangible case before anything else.

I don't have any preference for busting your balls; it's just that you have been saying the most things that I have problems with. Admittedly, you have been saying more than most people, so that may not mean too much.

[pwayne66]

Okay let's start here:

If Oman does OMGUS vote you, I will come down on him as well. He is right to question you though and to think about it.

This was the post in question:

I'm almost ready to vote pwayne, firstly he's broken the ice on the voting, but mostly, TH is suddenly not that scummy.

I definatly will think about this.

Notice that Oman has asked me nothing. He gives no reason for saying that TH seems less scummy. His only reason for suspecting me is apparently because I vote first today (a scumtell that you seem to subscribe to as well). You respond by saying that my posts are weird and call me out for asking Tar to make a case.

Questions for Oman:

1) What gives with the "I'm okay with a FA lynch" , with no reasons given?
2) What gives with the awkward FA lynch?
3) What reasons do you have to think that I am scum?
4) Could we get an up to date scumdar?
5) Why does TH seem less scummy to you?

Questions for Vollkan:

1) Do you believe that Oman's post offered any content or questions?
2) If not, why defend the post?
3) Please explain the ice breaking scum tell.
4) What about my posts were weird?
5) Why did you push that my reasons for voting FA were weak when Oman's were so very clearly weaker?

[vollkan]

1) Do you believe that Oman's post offered any content or questions?
2) If not, why defend the post?
3) Please explain the ice breaking scum tell.
4) What about my posts were weird?
5) Why did you push that my reasons for voting FA were weak when Oman's were so very clearly weaker?

I like listed questions.

1) Oman said that he was almost ready to vote for you because a) You'd broken the ice; and b) You had suddenly dropped the suspicion on TH. He also said he needed to think about it. I will wait to see what his "thinking" comes up with. For now, I have no problem with him saying he needs to think about things.

2) The post looked to me like a lead-in into actual analysis.

3) I said it "is not necessarily scummy (though scum are usually the ones to break the ice)". Like reactivity, it can be a scum-tell but it is very player-dependent also. If I thought it was a scum tell, I would have FoSed you by now.

4) I will list what I considered weird at the time:
a) Voting for pressure without a case (we have since been through this though)
b) Asking me whether I had anything to add on TH (again, we have since been over this)
c) The "I'm all ears" comment. It looked like you were trying to get theo to build up a case.

5) My problem with your vote was that you voted on apparent suspicion where we never saw that suspicion building up to the point of flame being above everyone else (we've been over this). Oman's hammer was very odd, but there isn't really any line of questioning to pursue on it, since he was explicit that he was hammering purely for the purpose of avoiding a self-hammer. It's a bizarre reason, to be sure, but there is no line of interrogation to flow from it. In your case, the vote was for suspicion, so it is relevant to look at how that suspicion formed. In Oman's case, the vote was "to hammer". The obvious question we might ask of Oman is why he chose to hammer FA when he was suspicious of TH, but his hammer explanation deals with that question, even if it is a poor explanation.

[Oman]

1) What gives with the "I'm okay with a FA lynch" , with no reasons given?
2) What gives with the awkward FA lynch?
3) What reasons do you have to think that I am scum?
4) Could we get an up to date scumdar?
5) Why does TH seem less scummy to you?

1) I believe I did state some reasons. Flameaxe was rather scummy (not overly so) and was threatening to self hammer. Self hammers annoy me, for one. Also, the threat to self hammer was, in my eyes, scum trying to get people to back off saying "Scum wouldn't do that" or something of the kind. Plus, self lynches result in less info, as the hammer isn't around to be questioned.

2) Oh sorry, answered this above.

3) Well, I happen to think that Vollkan and I are both town. I also happen to think that Tar is at worst a recruit. As you said yourself: Process of elimination. The reason I haven't voted you is that I don't feel thats enough. I'm much more afraid of the lurkers, but theo has been replaced in other games. My suspicion of TH was based on a suspicion of Flameaxe (which was rather weak) upon Flameaxe's "Town reveal" I almost disregarded TH. Which is probably the wrong thing to do.

4) I'm not big on %s but right now I'd say:
Scum: Pwayne, TH(possibly theo, but the lurking is adding to it)
Town: Vollkan, Oman, (theo or TH) (poss Tar)
Cult: Tar/Vollkan (not discounting this, he'd be a great cult asset, therefore likely target)

5) My suspicion of TH was based on a suspicion of Flameaxe (which was rather weak) upon Flameaxe's "Town reveal" I almost disregarded TH. Which is probably the wrong thing to do.


Anyway, after being forced to review my own scumdar

Vote Trojan Horse

[vollkan]

3) Well, I happen to think that Vollkan and I are both town. I also happen to think that Tar is at worst a recruit. As you said yourself: Process of elimination. The reason I haven't voted you is that I don't feel thats enough. I'm much more afraid of the lurkers, but theo has been replaced in other games. My suspicion of TH was based on a suspicion of Flameaxe (which was rather weak) upon Flameaxe's "Town reveal" I almost disregarded TH. Which is probably the wrong thing to do.

4) I'm not big on %s but right now I'd say:
Scum: Pwayne, TH(possibly theo, but the lurking is adding to it)
Town: Vollkan, Oman, (theo or TH) (poss Tar)
Cult: Tar/Vollkan (not discounting this, he'd be a great cult asset, therefore likely target)

5) My suspicion of TH was based on a suspicion of Flameaxe (which was rather weak) upon Flameaxe's "Town reveal" I almost disregarded TH. Which is probably the wrong thing to do.

Anyway, after being forced to review my own scumdar Vote Trojan Horse

I must have missed something here.

You think that yourself and me are pro-town (you "think" you are protown?) and that Tar is at worst a recruit. Okay fine, that leaves theo, TH and Pwayne. Judging my your scumdar, I gather theo is your lowest suspect of those three, leaving TH and Pwayne.

What I do not understand is why, if "process of elimination" is an inadequate reason to vote Pwayne (as you say), you have chosen to vote for TH. As you say, your "suspicion of TH was based on a suspicion of Flameaxe (which was rather weak)".

FA was town and (to the best of my knowledge) you have not yet actually given any further explanation as to why TH is scummy to the point of meriting a vote.

[Oman]

I just lumped us together vollkan, thats the only reason I said "think".

As for TH. I frankly feel he is the scummiest from his earlier behaviour. One main reason I was against TH was because he had a a strong 2P link to Flameaxe. When that dissappeared I gave up on him wrongly. After pwayne made me think about it, TH was extremely scummy early on (or, at the least, droped many many scumtells).

[vollkan]

As promised, a look over TH's responses to theo's PBPA:

For convenience:
Theo's PBPA of TH
TH's Response

As I read TH's Response:
1) He rebuts the suggestion that he was following CKD in prodding MoS by saying that he only cared

because

it was MoS. The strange thing is, that even in theo's own analysis he quotes TH saying:

Okay, MoS posted a bunch of times (in other games) yesterday evening. So he's definitely around.

He makes no mention of the fact that MoS being MoS is actually important.

2) Theo made a point that TH was using a "broken scumdar" as an excuse for finding scum, lumping this (for some reason) with the point that TH had given an early defence of FA. TH doesn't address the first of these and instead solely responds to the FA point, saying he just didn't find FA more scummy than anybody else on average. In other words, he avoided the point about not using "broken scumdar" as an excuse for not scumhunting.

3) Uses this impaired ability to scumhunt as an excuse for his "nicey-nicey" scumdar.

4) Theo makes a good point that TH actually makes himself sound scummiest, and calls this being apologetic. TH says that he just wanted to be "comprehensive".

5) The whole giving in to MoS's pressure and voting tyhess thing he puts down to frustration at being wishy-washy and having nothing to go on. This is effectively an emotional excuse and TH doesn't seem to be a particularly emotional player. Possible inconsistency.

6) Argues that we should consider lynching lurkers because we don't want the scum to be able to hide. The problem with this is, obviously, that town are just as likely to be lurking as scum are. Hence, lynching them is hardly helpful.

That makes 6 issues which, on closer inspection, still give cause for concern.

Can you please discuss these TH?

[pwayne66]

I'm gonna steal a

*headshake*

from TH here. Oman votes for TH with weak reasons. Vollkan gives him a playful swat and a half hearted reprimand and then proceeds to coach Omen on what his reasoning should be. I think I have our scum pair. Going to do some research.

[Oman]

Epic Phail pwayne

[pwayne66]

Are you waiting for Vollkan to come and defend you or do you want to explain why I am wrong?

[Oman]

Because I'm not scum.

I'm not going to say why you think vollkan is going easy on me. But you're wrong on me, I'm town

[vollkan]

I'm gonna steal a

*headshake*

from TH here. Oman votes for TH with weak reasons. Vollkan gives him a playful swat and a half hearted reprimand and then proceeds to coach Omen on what his reasoning should be. I think I have our scum pair. Going to do some research.

Okay, let's compare my two responses:

Why is Oman most suspicious? I don't recall you having recently made any case against him.

What I do not understand is why, if "process of elimination" is an inadequate reason to vote Pwayne (as you say), you have chosen to vote for TH. As you say, your "suspicion of TH was based on a suspicion of Flameaxe (which was rather weak)".

FA was town and (to the best of my knowledge) you have not yet actually given any further explanation as to why TH is scummy to the point of meriting a vote.

I'm hardly being inconsistent here. In both tone and substance, the two are effectively the same.

Fine, Pwayne, we had an argument following those points, but that was largely just because you responded to me and listed your 3 points when I requested a case. Those 3 points are NOT a case, which is why I argued against you.

If Oman responds to me with similarly dodgy reasoning, I will attack him as well. I came down no harder on Oman initially than I did on you; it was just that we got into a debate over it. Oman has been vague in his subsequent post and has still failed to properly justify his vote. Don't think I haven't taken note of that.

[vollkan]

I'm not going to say why you think vollkan is going easy on me. But you're wrong on me, I'm town

Softclaiming noted.

[pwayne66]

On a more somber note. Theo hasn't posted anywhere for a week now. I know that he said he would have trouble posting, but

MOD: can we get a prod

for theo and tar.

[vollkan]

Tar posted in this game today (at least in the superior timezones).

Check the previous page.

[pwayne66]

...oops. I knew that.

[pwayne66]

There were some questions surrounding my "I'm all ears" comment. Looking at Tar's posts reminded me. I don't think the comment was odd. Tar wanted to know why theo was getting off easy and thought that he was the most scummy. I was encouraging (imploring might be a better word) Tar to post his thoughts. If he thought that theo was the most scummy, he ought to tell us why, not expect us to do the research for him and say why we aren't pursuing him. It might have been better to ask Tar directly why he though theo was more scummy.

[Guardian]

theo prodded, tar prodded again....

vc's later, your mod is very busy.