Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[PenguinPower]

Also penguin, sorry for being quiet. I was a bit busy yesterday, but am more free for now. Question: Are you still voting for AstralFlare (I couldn't find an unvote skimming thorough the archive, please correct me if my info there is wring)? If so, why?

I'm not. It was an RVS vote. I am currently withholding my vote until the next vote count.

[Rocnix]

Ah, sorry for misunderstanding that then.

[Jibs]

Hello Penguin!

and it was surprising that you couldn't pick a scumpartner for Chrimi.

In the two games I have played before this one, I have learned/been taught that town should not be focusing on multiple scum reads Day1. There are too many possibilities, and too many ways to be thrown off. You should focus on your scummiest and go from there. From that, I could not logically and reasonably find a second scum read. If you want to infer from my readlist at the time, you can infer it was 0x40.

Using unflipped associations to make reads is terrible play which rarely works. Having unflipped associations is just part of being town. If you post your unflipped associations, and especially the reasoning behind them, it makes you easier to read. I also wonder why you didn't just say this at the time.

At that point, if you think Chrimi is scum, you should be very suspicious of imp for scumreading her, making an incredibly weak push on her, and then leaving his vote on you.

Why? implosion put his vote on me based on tone in the very beginning of the game. We're still more than a week out from deadline and with plenty of discussion left to be had. implosions scumread on Chrimi was light and maybe more of a push than anything else at the time. I wasn't suspicious at all, especially since 0x40 was pushing harder.

I don't understand your logic here, but I don't think that's alignment indicative. Given your point about not using unflipped associations, I'm less worried about these town reads than I was.

I guess the broader point here is that I didn't sense the sort of narrative that town generally has about the game. I like your tone in 170, but I've still got you as a scumlean. Idk man, tell me about the game.

First...I still have you leantown, but less so. I'm not sure if your "nice guy" persona is genuine play or an attempt at diversion...but its probably NAI.

I'll give you some town points for figuring out that my nice-guy-persona is fake. In the games I have read through, being a jerk tends to hurt town and lead to lots of pointless tvt tunneling that craps up the thread. But yes, my instinct is to call people bad at mafia and yell at them. Isn't everyone like that?

I lean less scum on Chrimi but still my scummiest. I still don't like the total context of her posts, but it does seem more towny when taking the entire defense into context. I would like to hear from thenewearth and 0x40 before changing my reads on them. I would like to see Rocnix do more than respond to you with reads and maybe actually start pushing people/doing something. shannon and implosion remain unchanged for now.

Btw...this is the first you mention of me as a scum lean (besides a 26 out of an assumed 100?). Thanks. I'd like to hear more of your case since you've come out with that now compared with the others.

I feel like your tone in this game is a little bit too conciliatory, especially towards me. Even in the post I am replying to, you seem to be bowing to thread sentiment on Chrimi. Logically, I understand that it's dumb to scumread somebody for not being a jerk, but that's how it feels here.

[innocentvillager]

	VOTECOUNT 1.2
Player	Being voted by (in chronological order)	Number of Votes
1. Jibs
2. AstralFlare
3. PenguinPower	implosion	1
4. 0x40	Rocnix, shannon	2
5. Rocnix
6. Chrimi	AstralFlare, 0x40	2
7. thenewearth
8. shannon	thenewearth	1
9. implosion	Chrimi	1

Not voting: PenguinPower, Jibs

Deadline to lynch is in (expired on 2016-08-21 21:23:28).

With 9 eligible to vote, it's 5 to lynch

Please let me know if there are errors in the VC, or have any other questions in general. Don't forget to bold such requests to me.

[PenguinPower]

@mod - I unvoted AstralFlare

Fixed. Of course this is still 100% my fault for missing it, but it would really helpful if you would in the future keep the vote to the left/on a new line as much as possible, so it is more noticeable Thanks! -IV

[PenguinPower]

@mod - I unvoted AstralFlare

Fixed. Of course this is still 100% my fault for missing it, but it would really helpful if you would in the future keep the vote to the left/on a new line as much as possible, so it is more noticeable Thanks! -IV

Sorry. Will do.

No need to apologize -IV

[Jibs]

Alright everybody, last post for the night!

Hopefully these add up to 200:
implosion 25
shannon 25
chrimi 25
astralflare 26
rocnix 19
thenewearth 24
penguinpower 27
0x40 29

Like any list of two digit scumreads, this is mostly bs, but it mostly summarizes how I'm reading the game. I had some bad feelings about imp earlier, but he's really improved in my eyes. Shannon's gambit makes sense as town, but I don't think it would be hard to fake as scum. She's neutral for me now. My townread on rocnix is terrible and I should feel bad... but that's how it feels. thenewearth seems kind of unreadable right now, and probably in the future too. I'm not sure how I actually feel about pp versus 0x40. They could definitely both be scum--pp's read on 0x40 is consistent with scum reading scum, but "consistent with scum reading scum" isn't something I take too seriously. I feel like I will have a stronger opinion on this after 0x40 posts more.

Astralflare: Let's see that reads list. Also, do you remember which posts you were talking about here in post 103?

I'm going with a tentative townlean onto implosion. His posts have generally been informative and content heavy, logical and measured. I like that.

Your read feels a little TMI to me: up to that point I had felt like imp's play felt very "cares more about being right than finding scum."

Also, and I am sorry to do this, can you explain the discrepancy here:

Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4.

Can we start a Chrimi question deflection list? I'll start.

Q48(AF): [...] Chrimi, why aren't you voting?
A56: I self voted myself and now people are reading over every post I've ever made on the site. I wouldn't call this "passive" :b
I'm a bit preoccupied trying to get people to not think "Oh we caught scum in the first post cause they did this silly thing during RVS that draws attention to them!!" because I would hate to see them try this outside of a newbie game.

Q71:(0X4X): First you say you have multiple alternate accounts, and now it's only "an alt?"
VOTE: Chrimi
You will explain this contradiction, along with giving the usernames of all your other alts, if you want this vote to be elsewhere today.
A73: Anyways, is this game an elaborate prank or are you actually going to stick your vote on me the entirety of day one for having alternate accounts? Most players on this site have alternate accounts. It's not scummy, or against the rules.
A74: And yes, I do have two alts, but the second one is literally a Hydra between this account and the first alt, so i don't really consider it an actual alt.

I gtg soon, but the general trend I've seen is her counter questioning her questioner to avoid answering the original question. In 102 as well. Also no time for fancy formatting and quotes, so again if someone could do that thank you.

I don't want to vote right now, but I will probably vote one of af, pp, and 0x40 tomorrow unless something happens. Take care.

[implosion]

How do you feel about PP? You are still voting him if my notes are right.

The points you make against him are decent. He's an alright candidate for scum but not particularly solidly so. I don't really have any scumreads at this point except for 0x40 contingent on his play in the near future. I'd say {AstralFlare, you, shannon and thenewearth} are town in no particular order right now but all of those are subject to change and my reads aren't particularly strong even for being this early in the game (shannon is because of the reaction test which I think looks decently town, tne is gut for now based on tone near the end of the exchange with 0x40). Chrimi I've talked about, Rocnix is another decent candidate for scum I think. Her more recent reads list has a tone of IIoA (information instead of analysis) to me. Out of 8 players she gives 3 reads, and the other 5 are essentially straight descriptions of their play that don't really mean anything.

Also just as an FYI Rocnix - NAI is typically used to refer to an action that someone takes or an event in the game (i.e., "I think shannon's reaction test is NAI for her"), not to describe an overall read on a player. Most people will call them null reads (as opposed to townreads or scumreads)

Using unflipped associations to make reads is terrible play which rarely works. Having unflipped associations is just part of being town. If you post your unflipped associations, and especially the reasoning behind them, it makes you easier to read. I also wonder why you didn't just say this at the time.

While I agree with your first sentence here strongly (and this is something that I wind up explaining my stance on in like half of the games I play >.>) I don't agree that having unflipped associations is part of being town on d1. It's a playstyle thing. I won't usually have any unflipped associations on d1 - I'll occasionally (very infrequently, because I don't think these things are really feasible to pick out) see something that looks vaguely like a scum connection between two unflipped players but I typically ignore them just because statistically the odds that I'm correct about them are extremely low.

In terms of the actual point you're making, essentially I think this may just be you imposing your playstyle or the way you view the game onto penguin. That said I do sort of agree that Penguin takes on a conciliatory tone in his response to you here which is a bit odd. Kind of. Idk I'm about to go to sleep so I might just be spouting nonsense at this point.

But yes, my instinct is to call people bad at mafia and yell at them. Isn't everyone like that?

I'm not

[implosion]

Oh and forgot to mention, Jibs - I'm curious if you could explain why you're townreading Rocnix.

[Rocnix]

Okay; analysis, conflicting viewpoints, and discussion are the key to an eventual scumread. Makes enough sense. Please take the disclaimer that I have no idea what I'm doing and mean no offense, and most of this is as much of (if not more of) an emotional response as it is a logical one because I have no practice judging people based on forum posts. Also sorry for the wall of text.

I'm honestly a bit concerned by how much Jibs is townreading me, as opposed to the more useful players. If it's a gambit, it's been in place since page three:

*snip* Rocnix's cluelessness feels towny. *Snip*

Jibs doesn't strike me as the sort of mastermind to start that early, so that's probably not a breadcrumb for eventual post-flip association whatever. So, the thoughtful posts read town.

Implosion still rubs me the wrong way. Wiki says that scum spend more effort on their posts by pretending to be town, which his reasoning reminds me of. However, wiki also says everything on the wiki is outdated (when was that detail last updated, I wonder? ), and that ICs are supposed to behave that way, so I have no case against him. My gut feeling says not to trust him, but there are more scummy candidates. (Also, there might be some OMGUS messing with my interpretation) (Speaking of which, there might be some reverse-OMGUS messing with my read on Jibs. Is there a term for that?)

My main interpretation of shannon's behavior is "impressed." Her reaction test focused on the larger picture, so she's probably townhunting more than scumhunting. My guess is that she's either a power role exploring the situation or scum searching for ideal targets.

My interpretation of Chrimi hasn't changed; I still read her as town, hopefully less frustrated now.

AstralFlare was on the anti-Chrimi bandwagon from page 1, so I'm not sure of the extent to which shannon's reaction test applies. He reasoned his argument in a way that didn't rely on her alts, too, so I've got a very weak townread here.

thenewearth seems quite detached from the whole situation, which seems kind of scummy to me. However, it's consistent with her meta, so I'm at a null read until she has some pressure on her and/or actually gives her interpretation of things, which isn't likely to happen.

PenguinPower reads like a newbie trying to figure things out through imitation, which he isn't. Browsing his past games indicates that he follows his townreads, but I don't think he's made meaningful townreads at this point, so the meta doesn't excuse the behavior. Weak scumread.

I do not trust 0x40 by any means. It looked like he was tunneling Chrimi, but when he included thenewearth in that attack it looked more like he was targeting anyone who presented the opportunity. He looks like he's searching for an easy lynch, so I have a moderate scumread here.

As far as association reads go, I can see 0x40 taking permission to go after chrimi from the other maf, which means it would be shannon, penguin, or AstralFlare. No one has flipped yet, so these are unreliable ofc.

[PenguinPower]

I feel like your tone in this game is a little bit too conciliatory, especially towards me. Even in the post I am replying to, you seem to be bowing to thread sentiment on Chrimi. Logically, I understand that it's dumb to scumread somebody for not being a jerk, but that's how it feels here.

I'm not being conciliatory...I'm trying not to replicate my borderline-offensive behavior from my previous newbie game which led to me being lynched Day 2 and an eventual scum win. We're 185 posts in and I don't have anyone at a point where I'm going to latch on and try to get them lynched. Hell, Day 1 in my last game went something like 1300 posts before we got a lynch. Sorry, if that's your case at this point, it's fairly weak.

rocnix 19

I'm curious as to why you have rocnix so low...she has done nothing this game. At best, she should be null. "It feels bad but I'm it is what it is" is weak.

PenguinPower reads like a newbie trying to figure things out through imitation, which he isn't. Browsing his past games indicates that he follows his townreads, but I don't think he's made meaningful townreads at this point, so the meta doesn't excuse the behavior. Weak scumread.

Past games? All 2 of them? Let's do a quick recap:
647: Diffusion of Power. My first game on this site, and I was woefully unprepared to play outside a newbie game. I didn't know WTH I was doing so I hopped on wagons that others started. I was town. We lost.
1725: Innocents, Inc. My first newbie game. I replaced into. I still didn't know WTH I was doing. I buddied up with the IC (who turned out to be scum), was brash and offensive, and it got me lynched day 2. I was town. We lost.

This is my third game, and my first from the start. I'm still trying to define my play style, but obviously what I was doing before didn't work out well. I think trying to define my meta - and especially establishing a read based on it - is a bit silly at this point.

[thenewearth]

@TNE, could you elaborate on 159?

Its more Chrimi trying to actively hide her identity as alt because she actually doesn't want to

Not because "My alts don't make me scum" defense

[thenewearth]

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either dumb or scum

[thenewearth]

Ok before ANYONE accuses me defending her (I'm looking at you 0x40)

How you ever thought about

How convenient it is for scum to jump that reasoning? Better derail that right now than let it play through

[thenewearth]

I'll address the shannon stuff after she posts about 3-5 times

She either can fix herself or make it more transparent

Lets see what she'd do <3

[AstralFlare]

*snip*

Astralflare: Let's see that reads list. Also, do you remember which posts you were talking about here in post 103?

I'm going with a tentative townlean onto implosion. His posts have generally been informative and content heavy, logical and measured. I like that.

Your read feels a little TMI to me: up to that point I had felt like imp's play felt very "cares more about being right than finding scum."

I've had a third to half of it written out right now, I'm afraid it's going to be a wall. Probably tomorrow night my time. (GMT +8)
I can't remember exactly which of his posts I had in mind back then, but now looking back his 78-89 are all solid.
I don't get what TMI stands for, but I don't particularly agree with your "cares more about being right than finding scum". I think that a lot of what you mean by "being right" (correct me if I'm wrong) are the sections of his posts which involve imparting knowledge of the meta into us Newbies, which is all part of his IC role. Obviously he has to sound right, and be right. And he's definitely scumhunted, in his exchange with Chrimi and now his 183.

Also, and I am sorry to do this, can you explain the discrepancy here:

Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4.

Can we start a Chrimi question deflection list? I'll start.

Q48(AF): [...] Chrimi, why aren't you voting?
A56: I self voted myself and now people are reading over every post I've ever made on the site. I wouldn't call this "passive" :b
I'm a bit preoccupied trying to get people to not think "Oh we caught scum in the first post cause they did this silly thing during RVS that draws attention to them!!" because I would hate to see them try this outside of a newbie game.

Q71:(0X4X): First you say you have multiple alternate accounts, and now it's only "an alt?"
VOTE: Chrimi
You will explain this contradiction, along with giving the usernames of all your other alts, if you want this vote to be elsewhere today.
A73: Anyways, is this game an elaborate prank or are you actually going to stick your vote on me the entirety of day one for having alternate accounts? Most players on this site have alternate accounts. It's not scummy, or against the rules.
A74: And yes, I do have two alts, but the second one is literally a Hydra between this account and the first alt, so i don't really consider it an actual alt.

I gtg soon, but the general trend I've seen is her counter questioning her questioner to avoid answering the original question. In 102 as well. Also no time for fancy formatting and quotes, so again if someone could do that thank you.

*snip*

I'm sorry as well, but I don't see a contradiction. In the first post you quoted, I said Chrimi seemed town at end of Page 3, but seemed scum in Page 4, after the dodging and the witholding of information ramped up to a whole new level. The second post was merely a half done attempt to list down every time she had done so. Where did I contradict myself?

[Chrimi]

Chrimi: Let me clarify my question above. Why is tne talking to 0x40 instead of you in this section of the game?

Because 0x40 was trying to paint me as scummy for something that isn't scummy. Players often will jump in and make a rebuttal against points made against someone else if they think they're very wrong.

[Chrimi]

VOTE: AstroFlare
For the obvious misrepresentation in 105.

[AstralFlare]

Meanwhile, a question for everyone.

PP: Why aren't you voting? You said in Post 147 that you were unvoting your RVS but wasn't voting as you had nowhere better to place it. And yet, you read Chrimi as scum in the very same post.

Chrimi: Can I have your thoughts on people besides implosion?

0x40: Same as Chrimi, but thoughts on people besides Chrimi.

Jibs: The Rocnix townread. The one thing in your analyses I'm scratching my head over. Explain.

Rocnix:

Jibs doesn't strike me as the sort of mastermind to start that early, so that's probably not a breadcrumb for eventual post-flip association whatever. So, the thoughtful posts read town.

Explain this!

Shannon: Are you suspicious of anyone beyond 0x40?

TNE: You've said a lot about your scumreads, but is there anyone who you think is town?

Implosion: Could you separate the IC part of your posts from the play part? It's difficult to tell which is which. In my previous game the IC's theory posts were a different color.

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: AstroFlare
For the obvious misrepresentation in 105.

I.
Literally.
Copied.
And.
Pasted.

How is that misrepresentation?

[shannon]

^^Agree with Astral Flare (GMT+8 too? Perth too?) that Implosion is as much trying to IC as he is play the game. I don't think he's deliberately trying to cause confusion but it's not always clear to me whether he's saying something with his IC hat on or whether it's his personal opinion. Maybe Implosion you could italicise your IC stuff just to differentiate it from your regular play?

[Chrimi]

Can we start a Chrimi question deflection list? I'll start.

Q48(AF): [...] Chrimi, why aren't you voting?
A56: I self voted myself and now people are reading over every post I've ever made on the site. I wouldn't call this "passive" :b
I'm a bit preoccupied trying to get people to not think "Oh we caught scum in the first post cause they did this silly thing during RVS that draws attention to them!!" because I would hate to see them try this outside of a newbie game.

Q71:(0X4X): First you say you have multiple alternate accounts, and now it's only "an alt?"
VOTE: Chrimi
You will explain this contradiction, along with giving the usernames of all your other alts, if you want this vote to be elsewhere today.
A73: Anyways, is this game an elaborate prank or are you actually going to stick your vote on me the entirety of day one for having alternate accounts? Most players on this site have alternate accounts. It's not scummy, or against the rules.
A74: And yes, I do have two alts, but the second one is literally a Hydra between this account and the first alt, so i don't really consider it an actual alt.

I gtg soon, but the general trend I've seen is her counter questioning her questioner to avoid answering the original question. In 102 as well. Also no time for fancy formatting and quotes, so again if someone could do that thank you.

This is just straight up misrep.
The first one (Q48) and (A56) are done stupidly to make it sound like I'm misdirecting. Here's the question I was actually answering:

Rocnix and Chrimi, why aren't you voting?

Good question. It's RVS - why the passive play?

I self voted myself and now people are reading over every post I've ever made on the site. I wouldn't call this "passive" :b
I'm a bit preoccupied trying to get people to not think "Oh we caught scum in the first post cause they did this silly thing during RVS that draws attention to them!!" because I would hate to see them try this outside of a newbie game.

Obviously I was answering "It's RVS - why the passive play?"
As if self-voting and scumclaiming is passive play.. oh boy.

In response to Q71: Of fucking course I'm not going to give the names of all my alts, implosion has recently explained why and you can divert your attention there.

[Chrimi]

It's not copy and paste if you line up my answer to the wrong question, and act like me directly answering 71 was somehow dodging. :b

[thenewearth]

but is there anyone who you think is town?

When I finally see someone towny

[Chrimi]

Moreso, you claim I'm deflecting those questions, but..
You asked "Why aren't you voting?" and I replied

I'm a bit preoccupied trying to get people to not think "Oh we caught scum in the first post cause they did this silly thing during RVS that draws attention to them!!" because I would hate to see them try this outside of a newbie game.

How is that deflecting? I answered your question.