Mini 499: Just Your typical Mafia Game GAME OVER!!!!!!!!

[HackerHuck]

Since you aren't interpreting my post the same way I felt, just chalk it up to gut. When I was doing my reread I was feeling more strongly that SSF was scum, but when day broke and I read Skruffs' post and I looked at Gorgon's posts, I got a very uneasy feeling about White. My comment that White doesn't seem scummy is a big part of it. In my other games with him, I've had an overall scummy feeling from him that I didn't get in my initial reread. Just to note, I read blind, so I didn't know Gorgon was scum until after I had made all of my initial notes.

Mod Edit

Vote Count

cicero- 1 (Skruffs)
Skruffs- 1 (pwayne66)
White- 1 (HackerHuck)

Not Voting- 6 (ChocolateAttack, cicero, shaka!!, Skruffs, somestrangeflea, theopor_COD, White)

5 to lynch

[pwayne66]

MOD?

Could we get a prod on White please?

I think that it has been 13 days of no posting.

[pwayne66]

...actually 15 days....

[JordanA24]

Prodding White and Skruffs

[Skruffs]

MY apologies, after a long weekend oof cavorting, this game got dropped from my watch list. I knew I was forgetting somethign. It lokos like I have missed quite a bit of posting - I will get right on it.

[HackerHuck]

White may still be on V/LA...

[shaka!!]

The following text has been posted assuming HackerHuck is scum.

Borchmore (has posted only once, absent for about 5 days now)

somestrangeflea (hasn't posted here since the 5th, but was active elsewhere on the site yesterday)

With all due respect, if you think 2 days of inactivity is lurking, I'm fairly sure that you're not going to enjoy your time here...

Meh. I mostly added you because I didn't want to pick on just one guy,

and there was a lot of discussion going on yesterday, so inactivity on that day was kind of noticable, especially since you were active elsewhere on the site on the same day. It's no biggie. I am fully aware of the general pace of the games here.

Or maybe because you don't want to seem like you are guiding your scum buddy and so you scraped the bucket to find what ever dirt you could to put next to him.

b) What would have been a more appropriate "townie" response.

I'm fascinated to hear this.

How does this look like he is trying to cover up for me?

What makes you think he is trying to cover up for me?

I could list thousands, but these are the best fitting.

Hmm ... you have a point. A simple question usually sounds less scummy than a defensive attitude.

Perhaps this is what Battle Mage is really getting at.

More possible scum buddy help?

Battle Mage - I know he's on a path of self-exploration now,

but he still needs to post something.

Again guides BM to be more active and stop lurking and votes Daedalus instead, for

lurking

.

At this point, I'm going to

Vote: Kakeng

. He still hasn't posted much, and I think he's our best shot right now. The day has to end eventually.

After lots of delaying, gives into voting Kakeng. Maybe because he realizes that a inactive mafia would be a lot easier to distance from then an active mafia?

Okay, I can wait a few more days until Kakeng gets replaced, I guess.

There is not much on the other two players because they didn't post much at all and Hacker joined after Gorgons lynch. I think.

Unvote

Quickly unvotes but keeps his pressure on him to keep the distancing game going.

I don't feel entirely convinced with what I have presented, but I am just throwing it out there in case anyone else picks something up.

[Skruffs]

Hmmmmmmm.

Pwayne, let me ask a few questions, just about your situation, regarding voting me n such, mmmmk?

K.

Cicero posts a review, and mentions that me and jester were about the only people who expressed suspicion of the known scum. He also lists four or so players that he feels contains scum.
This was a nice, strong post, except for the two botches: first, he suggests that if someone is town, that I am scum, without really explaining why we could not both be scum, or both town, or if he was scum I would be town. This is a false dilemma.

Second botch: he spent later posts trying to dissolve his own convictions. Why?

Anyways, this is about you, not cicero. In your first post in response, you agree with cicero "at the risk of seeming chummy" (may have misparaphrased). So you are agreeing that me and jester both found gorgon suspicious.


You later on say yourself that I was actively pushing for a gorgon-pwayne possible teamup. Gorgon is now dead and known as scum. So I was at least half right.

However, even after acknowledging that, you decide to take my vote for the claimed power role as your reasoning for putting a vote on me.

Why? You stripped the reasoning behind my vote and the context of the game out when you voted for me. I researched the wiki for normal roles. Nurse and retired cop came up, as did 'backup', but no role came up for a backup that could voluntarily replace any power role. It's a pretty powerful, unusual role, and it (honestly) probably should not be in a mini-normal game.you are voting me for incorrectly out-guessing the mod. Why is my vote the one vote you are suspicious of? If you agree with cicero, as you claim in your buddying up post, why are you not following through?

Also, thanks for the reminder about something... See next post for reasoning about some stuff.
(I'm on my cell which makes it hard to backtrack)

[pwayne66]

Second botch: he spent later posts trying to dissolve his own convictions. Why?

I don't know.

So you are agreeing that me and jester both found gorgon suspicious.

...but I agree with his conclusions about the mafia, the SK and the Vig.

....meaning that I agree with:

Normally the stabbing represents a serial killer attack. A vigilante normally shoots. We can assume that the mafia did not shoot gorgon since he as mafia. Therefore we assume that the vigilante shot gorgon.

We therefore deduce that the Mafia shot Jester and the serial killer stabbed him.

You later on say yourself that I was actively pushing for a gorgon-pwayne possible teamup. Gorgon is now dead and known as scum. So I was at least half right.

and

However, even after acknowledging that, you decide to take my vote for the claimed power role as your reasoning for putting a vote on me.

Yes coming out the gate. You never nosed any more than to imply you thought he was scum. A decent distancing strategy is to state a suspicion of your partner that is actually weak but seems sincere. The fact that you seem to suspect him without too much evidence, or trying too hard to lynch, is why I am voting you. I think that you could use some pressure. The powerroll thing was merely an additional inconstancy. Your defense is noted though.

[cicero]

In addition - even though I know this makes me once again seem inconsistant (I pride myself on inconsistancy in mafia at this point, actually) - one thought I had after my last "maybe Skruffs is town" post was:

Hey - he was right about Gorgon! And then I thought... isn't that weird? Who the hell would have suspected Gorgon? Hmm... maybe his distancing partner. Personally, I never would have suspected Gorgon.

It's not enough for me to vote for Skruffs and I haven't looked back to see who else suspected Gorgon. I'm just putting it out there as a thought I had after my last post on the subject.


As for this:

first, he suggests that if someone is town, that I am scum, without really explaining why we could not both be scum, or both town, or if he was scum I would be town. This is a false dilemma.

I'm not sure what exactly what you are referring to. When you aren't on your phone, can you throw me a quote?

Second botch: he spent later posts trying to dissolve his own convictions. Why?

Well - I suppose you could suspiciously posit that I'm trying to throw out stuff without letting anything stick to me or something like that - I assume that's the implicit accusation in your question. But the truth is that I don't have any "convictions" in mafia. I have "suspicions". And they should constantly be second guessed.

I'm kind of open book. I re-think things regularly. If I change my mind and I think it's an important change of view, I generally post it and share my logic with the town. Since we need to vote, finding the mafia is a collaberative exercise. As you can see at the top of this post, I did it again.

I won't be stopping in this or any other game any time soon. Remember the last game I was in with you? Mafia 63 was it? Where I went and looked up all the role information and completely reversed myself on who I thought the scum was from Pooky And Talitha to, well, you. And I shot you in the balls with my vigilante's arrow? And you died. And were found to be scum? And the good guys won?

Yeah. I do that a lot.

[pwayne66]

I will be gone until monday. I'm taking a three day weekend.

[Skruffs]

Cicero, I wasn't shot in the balls, first of all.
Secondly, Ithe 'implicit accusation' was more curiousity about why you are 'playing it safe'. You make a bold post saying "This guy is acting funny! So is this! And these tweo!" and then later on say "It's not like ALL the scum are there, heh, maybe not even HALF are scum" - which, while it may be true, seems to be counter intuitive. If you think they are scum, why would you then back down by saying you don't think they are scum?


PWayne -
"A decent distancing strategy is to state a suspicion of your partner that is actually weak but seems sincere. The fact that you seem to suspect him without too much evidence, or trying too hard to lynch, is why I am voting you. I think that you could use some pressure."
Gorgon was apparently 'above suspicion' by a good part of the players of this game.
I was suspicious of him, when he was considered one of the more town players, and therefore it is likely I am distancing?
"Without trying too hard to lynch" would be an applicable argument if you yourself were not 'buddy buddy' with him all day one - similarly to how you are attempting to 'buddy buddy' up to Cicero today.
I really don't like it.

You think I am distancing, right?
What about this, then:

I must say that I find cicero's defense very eloquent. I certainly do like his style,

regardless of what his role in this game turns out to be

. He makes a lot of good points too.

Also, why is it you only ask for prods of players you aren't voting? You didn't ask for a prod on White until you changed your vote to me, and then you didn't ask for a prod on me, either. Small small scumtell.


A lot of my suspicion of Pwayne, Cicero, and Gorgon comes from
Page Four, continuing through Five

this better me a joke. If that is an actual DayVig i'm gonna be so unbelievably peed off. Assuming i'm still alive, i'll be back to respond to more of this crap later. No, i dont think me trying to explain things is actually helping teach anyone anything, but at least i can say i did my best with this game. I cant save the town alone.

BM

Welcome, Prof. Guppy.

I must say I find it mighty 'convenient' how you cover both your own a** and that of BM in one go. Perhaps there is a trend of pro-town players being more likely to drop out, but I still think it's more down to external circumstances. You can't clear someone just because they replaced in; I could point to many examples where I've seen replacements being scum.

This is interesting in that Gorgon actually seems IRRITATED, where as the rest of the game (up to there) he has been a the epitome of Southern Hospitality regarding the other players. Insisting on prods and agreeing with others without actually disagreeing with too much. Even his arguments are more posits of alternative ideas than arguments. This though seems... irritated. Bonus points for BM.

Page 7 is what really gets me regarding a pwayne/gorgon thing. Just read it.
Especially the part where they both say "Oh no BM you just lynched the guppy!"
They both seem to be acting as if they know that it was

a mistake

.

Also,

First, I find Gorgon to be a rather odd vig kill. Most people with vocal opinions on him found him to be town, with only a couple of people thinking him to be scummy (Jester/skitzer are in that group). That leaves us with a vig who wasn't very careful, or an SK.

I don't like this part of your post, at all. You seem to be focusing attention onto, as you say, a very select group of people. Why? "And why is suggesting this to everyone else so important to you?
"A vig who wasn't very careful" is saying that

you

think that the vig revealed themselves through their choice of targets. I think you are jumping to conclusions there. The only people who was really suspicious of Gorgon (out loud anyways) was me, Jester, and skitzer.
I'm the only person alive out of those three - and with the knowledge that there is no way that a doctor can prevent a double target, it *seems* that you are trying to communicate to someone (or someones) to team up against who you *seem* to think the vig is. This, after you spent some time saying publicly that you weren't sure there even was a vig AND an Sk.
Very, very, poor behavior. And yes, I am still very suspicious of you after that newbie game.

The thing you forgot to take into account when you started hinting around about stuff like that, is that skitzer posted Gorgon and Cicero as his top scum on his death bed.

Well, if that's the case, go right ahead.

[pwayne66]

Also, why is it you only ask for prods of players you aren't voting? You didn't ask for a prod on White until you changed your vote to me, and then you didn't ask for a prod on me, either. Small small scumtell.

This will be my last post of the weekend and I will address the rest later:

white was gone 15 days. You were gone 6. I was never voting white, so this doesn't demonstrate what you are accusing me of... at all. I mean it wasn't like I was voting white, changed to you and then asked for a prod of white.

BTW "I was suspicious of him, when he was considered one of the more town players, and therefore it is likely I am distancing?"

-likely was your word choice...not mine. Mind telling us how why you suspected Gorgon so quickly?

Anyway have a good weekend.

[Skruffs]

You seem to be implying that gorgon was above suspicion, and that's just not true. Gorgon made scumtells that stuck out to me like great earthern spires in this desolate landscape that is Skruffs mind.

You ignored them, or incorporated them into your own play. Now, rather than analyzing gorgon even now, you almost seem resentful that I noticed things that others didn't.

Much like cicero yesterday, you seem interested in lynching good players and ignoring scummy ones.

Have a nice weekend, when you get back, I will have a predent for you. (Hint: it starts with V and ends with E!)

[HackerHuck]

Also,

First, I find Gorgon to be a rather odd vig kill. Most people with vocal opinions on him found him to be town, with only a couple of people thinking him to be scummy (Jester/skitzer are in that group). That leaves us with a vig who wasn't very careful, or an SK.

I don't like this part of your post, at all. You seem to be focusing attention onto, as you say, a very select group of people. Why? "And why is suggesting this to everyone else so important to you?
"A vig who wasn't very careful" is saying that

you

think that the vig revealed themselves through their choice of targets. I think you are jumping to conclusions there. The only people who was really suspicious of Gorgon (out loud anyways) was me, Jester, and skitzer.
I'm the only person alive out of those three - and with the knowledge that there is no way that a doctor can prevent a double target, it *seems* that you are trying to communicate to someone (or someones) to team up against who you *seem* to think the vig is. This, after you spent some time saying publicly that you weren't sure there even was a vig AND an Sk.
Very, very, poor behavior. And yes, I am still very suspicious of you after that newbie game.

The thing you forgot to take into account when you started hinting around about stuff like that, is that skitzer posted Gorgon and Cicero as his top scum on his death bed.

Well, if that's the case, go right ahead.

I think you're missing my point. By stating that, it implies that I think an SK targeted Gorgon. I don't see Gorgon as a good vig target, mainly because most people thought he was town. Any vig who targeted Gorgon would be rather careless, since there wasn't much suspicion on him and it would point a finger at you primarily. As I said, it would be a careless vig

[Skruffs]

Then explain the stabbing as well as shooting of jester?

[pwayne66]

Would that be a present of the OMGUS variety? Instead of being defensive perhaps you could just explain your suspicions of Gorgon (I feel iky having to ask again, but inquiring minds you know...) that seems like a much more reasonable response to a question. I have now interest in lynching good players. Evasive players that threaten to vote for people that ask questions... well, that is a different story... I say, lynch away.

[Skruffs]

I'm evasive?
That's interesting, I thought I was being pretty forward about my thoughts and suspicions.
However, if you think it's generically more likely that scum are bussing than that town is accurately scum hunting, more power to you.

One of the biggest backers behind the gorgon-pwayne scum team was how both of you reacted to what you thought was BM's hammer on P. Guppy. You both acted surprised, you first, Gorgon second, treating BM's action as if it were a mistake.

One of the reasons I'm also adding Cicero to the mix is because of the way you were so nervous about a possible lynch-2 on Cicero early on in the game. Somethign about yoru reactions to him was very strange. Also, while you thought P Guppy was likely town (Cicero was also suggesting the same) when he was acting very scummy, you have changed yoru mind when I replaced in, someone who (supposedly) is more experienced and a better player. This suggests to me that you two were acting 'faux mature' abuot the p guppy situation because you 'knew' he wasn't mafia (though you would have had no idea that there was an SK at that point), something also backed up by the later 'almost lynch' by BM on the person you both professed was probably town. I replace in, and your opinions change, although I still can't really figure out Why.

But both of your opinions of me have remained identical through the game. You bhoth thought P Guppy was likely town, just a douche, and you both are suggesting I Was distancing from a scumbuddy, today.

However, what's really strange is that two other people who were TOWN were also suspicious of Gorgon yesterday. They could NOT have been distancing from him - right? So why would you therefore say that I am? Presumably, if any of them were alive, you would be saying the same thing about the two ot them, right?

The other thing is that mafia could have killed me or cicero to cast suspicion on th eother one, and htey didn't. Make your own decision.

[HackerHuck]

I'm not certain what to think about the shooting/stabbing, but I don't know why you would dismiss the possibility of a vig/mafia double attack if you think that we've got a vig and an SK. The knife vs. gun thing doesn't convince me that the SK uses a knife.

[pwayne66]

Skruffs- I missed the 2nd half of post 811. Apologies for the evasiveness comment. The way I saw it, I asked some legitimate questions about your suspicions of Gorgon. I left town for the weekend and just read the latest posts and it seemed that you responded by saying "I'm going to vote for you now". I didn't go back and finish reading what happened before I left.

However, if you think it's generically more likely that scum are bussing than that town is accurately scum hunting, more power to you.

I'm not sure I understand this comment. You had nothing to do with Gorgon dieing did you? If not how am I accusing you of busing? I am, in fact, accusing you of not busing. I am saying that you cast some very weak and less than passionate accusations at Gorgon and then voted for 5 (or 4, I can't remember) other players. Gorgon turns up dead and you seem to take credit for it and reduce my accusation at you as attacking you for good scum hunting.

One of the biggest backers behind the gorgon-pwayne scum team was how both of you reacted to what you thought was BM's hammer on P. Guppy. You both acted surprised, you first, Gorgon second, treating BM's action as if it were a mistake.

I don't see anything there that suggests scumminess. This might require some clarification.

[pwayne66]

Unvote

for now. White, shaka!!, somestrangeflea, theopor_COD and ChocolateAttack all need to post something/be prodded/be replaced, so that we can get some fresh perspective here.

[somestrangeflea]

I is back from holiday! Huzzah!

Thoughts on the kills:
I agree thoroughly with the theory that Gorgon was vigged, and that Jester was killed by the Mafia and an SK, mainly because I don't really see an alternative.

Vig plus backup also seems a bit much, but not unbelievable.

Agreed. Limited-shot Vig, perhaps..?

Thoughts on... uhm... other things:

you are voting me for incorrectly out-guessing the mod.

To be fair, I don't see that as a particularly bad reason to be voting for someone. You pushed a point which eventually turned out to be false, which is what the Mafia are trying to do.

[Skruffs]

Ssf - humm. So my vote was the most suspicious because i pushed a point that turned out to be false, right, which was that his claim was probably not a role in a normal mini?
Nobody else's reasoning was as faulty as that?

Hacker:
Two kills on a cop, one on mafia. The attack on mafia is either sk or vig, mafia won't self kill.
Assume mafia have double kill: why would they put both kills on one, unclaimed, player? They want to eliminate all of town, they would more likely than not spread them out to make it more likely to hit the doctor (the presence of which is confirmed by needles in the back-ups kit). I think that's unlikely.

If the vig has a Double kill, why would they kill jester? My theory is that the vig used skitzer's last minute suspicion of cicero and (strangely) gorgon to base his kill, so if they had on on double kill, they would have hit cicero and gorgon. That's just on on theory, though.

I really don't like how you are focusing on it, in any case.

Pwayne-
Are you asking me if i am the vig??? Do you expect me to say no, if i'm not???
Also; not bussing, but distancing. I am more just curious why you side with cicero and gorgon on a lot of issues and were trying to lynch the one person who was publicly suspicious of the known scum rather than saying ' wow, skruffs was right about something.' Day 1 was a fairly long, confusing time - absolutely nobody was interested in the gorgon/pwayne thing i mentioned, so i continued my reread and forgot about it because i found other trails worth following. Did i change my votes the most out of the remaining living players?


I am still happy with voting cicero, though pwayne is high up there now.


I too would like to see more prods.

[cicero]

We should probably get White replaced soon. He was V/LA but he's past that time by quite a few days now and hasn't been back to the site.

I'm trying to find a replacement right now, I've put an advertisement in the Replace Thread.

[cicero]

Also consider replacing Theopor.

Prodding Theo and ChocolateAttack