Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Jitsu]

at any rate, I will have time tomorrow to post, and this game is the first on my agenda....I think people need to seriously look at Mitzef.

Huh? Why do you keep saying this like we are not looking seriously at him. We are -- he is number two or higher on many of our lynch-want-lists, and nobody really seems to believe anything he is saying.

[Jitsu]

I can't believe the mess I've got myself into. Since I'm likely to die soon, I'm gonna

claim Civilian

. I guess it wouldn't be so bad if you lynched me, this has been one the of the productive day 1's I've seen in a game without getting too muddied up.

Since you claimed, I am going to ask you to be more clear about what you are claiming. Are you claiming "pro-town" only, "vanilla townie", or something else?

[jerubbaal]

Because him and jitsu are both so "pro-town" I'm inclined to believe at least one of them is scum, but I've yet to see any major flaws in mexal's arguments, so I see no reason to consider him for lynch

Does this not make any sense to anyone else? I don't think I need to say much on this one.

All in all, this post is entirely what I would expect considering your action so far. It seems like a very weak attempt to justify yourself (by claiming civilian? what do you expect that to accomplish?), to praise those who are supporting your position, and attack those who are speaking against you. Your criticism against me in particular seems ill-founded. Popping in and out??? WTF, I've posted a helluva lot more than anyone here excepting your two heroes, and I'm pretty darn close to on par with them. I'm not terribly surprised you don't find my posts useful, considering lately they've been against you. I am increasingly pleased with where my vote is.

[Korlash]

Yeah the "So pro-town must me scum" argument always makes me laugh... then again I have been known to use it from time to time... XD

I was going to do my reread and post today but just to piss Jer off I decided to put it off again

[Jitsu]

Because him and jitsu are both so "pro-town" I'm inclined to believe at least one of them is scum, but I've yet to see any major flaws in mexal's arguments, so I see no reason to consider him for lynch

Does this not make any sense to anyone else? I don't think I need to say much on this one.

His reasoning sounds like WIFOMy crap to me. He praises both Mexal and I and then tries to use some lame WIFOM argument to suggest that "at least" one of us is scum? Sounds to me like he is just trying to sow a few last seeds of miscontent before his potential lynch.

All in all, this post is entirely what I would expect considering your action so far. It seems like a very weak attempt to justify yourself (by claiming civilian? what do you expect that to accomplish?), to praise those who are supporting your position, and attack those who are speaking against you. Your criticism against me in particular seems ill-founded. Popping in and out??? WTF, I've posted a helluva lot more than anyone here excepting your two heroes, and I'm pretty darn close to on par with them. I'm not terribly surprised you don't find my posts useful, considering lately they've been against you. I am increasingly pleased with where my vote is.

Who is supporting his position? I can't really see anyone that is. I'm only saying he is making the only real strategic play he has left as a scum that is in serious jeopardy of being lynched.

[Mexal]

His reasoning sounds like WIFOMy crap to me. He praises both Mexal and I and then tries to use some lame WIFOM argument to suggest that "at least" one of us is scum? Sounds to me like he is just trying to sow a few last seeds of miscontent before his potential lynch.

It's not WIFOM.

[GunslingerKB]

SO So sorry....my internet went DONW AGAIN!!!! I have to work tonight and will be able to post tommorow....SO SOORRYY!!!!

[Abstract Actuary]

Miztef and Gunslinger I understand. Sudo I do not understand very well. Please tell me why you support a Sudo_Nym lynch as your 3rd best choice. What do you hope to learn from it?

To be honest, I don't feel "great" about any of them at this point. But it's just day 1, and feeling strong about any candidate on day 1 is very foreign to me. After the first two, I just ranked the remaining three candidates, all of whom in my opinion may have done some strange town things, but all of whom haven't really stood out as scum, to me. Sudo_Nym's general play style and strategy (post for himself, suggest anti-town things) pushes him ahead of the other two in my list.

Let's assume that there are 3 mafia members out of 12. From my perspective everyone starts out with a ~28% chance of being scum. I'd put the last three on that list somewhere around that 28%, with the first two somewhere in the 30s or 40s.

I really can't believe there isn't any penalty for getting a replacement. So someone could sign up for every game and then just withdraw when they find out they didn't get a special role? Sucks.

I'll go dig up the original Anata112 post now and address this:

What did you think was useful? And which points did she make about me that you agree with?

[Mexal]

I really can't believe there isn't any penalty for getting a replacement. So someone could sign up for every game and then just withdraw when they find out they didn't get a special role? Sucks.

Yes and people do it all the time.

[Abstract Actuary]

Jitsu asked me

What did you think was useful? And which points did she make about me that you agree with?

If I misinterpreted something, please let me know. I would welcome any replies to any concerns that I may have. What I have done was summarize the activity so far, since that helps me think and keep track on what has happened. Then I follow up each summary with my own thoughts. Hopefully this summary would help with the discussion

Ok, I guess she did represent it as a comprehensive summary. Hmmm.

Her post is mostly summary, but it contains commentary on some of the more subtle events. Like in this portion:

Abstract Actuary
Not much input so far, other than explaining his instincts, and putting up a random vote. However, his vote was a second one, so it seems to me like he’s trying to start a bandwagon initially in the game.

Jitsu
He first started off with a vote for Abstract, and then unvoted him. He stated that Jayalay seems townie-ish and that the initial voting stage was quite random. When Miztef started pushing for a fourth vote, he agreed. He also agrees with Miztef that random voting is good for checking for people’s reaction. He also seconds the guess that korlash is a townie. It’s interesting to me on how he’s sure that certain people have a townie-vibe. After checking for new posts, he agrees that sudo_nym shouldn’t have proposed the mass claim, but he was the one that asked sudo_nym what his ideas were. Am I wrong here?

Basically, what I agree with, is that while many others have gotten all pro-town vibes from you for your persistent scumhunting and long and detailed summary posts, I'm not yet convinced you are pro-town. I'm not saying I'm sure your scum, but you seem to be trying to "get on the good side" of a lot of the pro-town players. A subtle way to make people think you are honest and innocent is to tell them that you think that they are innocent. Subconsciously they won't want to vote you out, since you are an advocate. I've just seen this type of play done before by scum.

My basic point about this issue is that while her summary may not have been a perfect summary of the game to that point, it didn't seem scummy to me.

[curiouskarmadog]

Reply time. Mexal first.

It's possible that everything she had done was laziness. I highly doubt it though. Why make a post if you're not even going to address anything that we're discussing? Why be lazy and then come back and say you were trying to document everything that was going on? Seriously, it makes no sense for her to be lazy and make a post like that. Why is she allowed to be lazy but Gunslinger isn't? Why aren't I allowed to be lazy when rehashing Jitsu's post? Why is it Anata is the only one allowed to be lazy? You're protecting her and you're pushing off everything she has done as laziness...nothing as intentional. I don't know if you've played with her before, but without knowing her, I don't see how you can even think that. The reason I didn't mention it as apart of Jitsu's post is because I dont' think he believed it. He is new and he doesn't have the conviction in his cases more experienced players do. He was making excuses for her just in case he was wrong because he's not 100% sure. But I don't think he truly believes she's just lazy...I know I don't.

Seems like you are not reading all of my posts. You asked for my opinion, I gave it. I said I would rather wait, you probed. I tell you my opinion, you say that I am actively protecting her. How is that fair, when I wanted to keep my opinions about the argument to myself (at that particular time)? I am now protecting her. I stated that she might also be “trying to look town,” which is a scum tactic, but not enough to hang someone on. I also stated that if she did indeed misrepresent Jitsu’s post that too would be scummy. Funny you over look those comments, but say I am defending her. I am not giving anyone a free pass for being lazy, I just feel that there is a scummier people here. My win condition is to lynch scum, not obtain information from a lynch…what is yours?

I don't buy it. You are making the assumption that she is lazy. You don't know her, you don't know her style yet you can accurately say in 10 posts that she's being lazy. How do you know this? What about her analysis suggests this? The fact that she doesn't know the reasons behind Sudo? The fact that she's leaving out major events in the game while focusing on the minute? Why can't that be calculated? Why can't she be a newbie scum trying to look town by focusing on details that are irrelevant to the main conversation because one of the people in the conversation is scum with her? Is that so far out of the realm of possibility that we automatically assume she's lazy?

At this point, the whole game is based on assumptions. You assume she is being scummy versus lazy. I can say she is being lazy. Her noise ratio versus yours is quite different. Her analysis (to me) seems half assed like she was skimming. Seems to me that someone who is mafia would be going line by line trying to find the littlest comment to jump on and make a case about. Seems to me that mafia would be opportunistic and jump on the BW of the hour with a vote (has anata voted for anyone?). Granted this is all subjective, but I think there are scummier lynches today that need to be addressed. She could be a newbie scum, she could be experienced scum being calculated. She could be absolutely anything. That it the catch. I don’t know. You asked my opinion. I gave it to you. Why are you trying to breed an atmosphere that where if people disagree with you they are probably scum. I was content not providing my 2 cents day 1 on the argument and seeing how that played out while still only pushing my Mitzef case. You asked me for it. How am I protecting her when you probed me for the information?

I also think Mexal vote is interesting. He added little. We know he can post large content filled post, but only provides a “I agree” post. Where are the follow up question? Jitsu, was applying pressure, if you were doing that too, don’t you have some questions for Anata to answer? I asked him to provide a small bullet point case, but he just quotes a huge block of Jitsu’s post. He cant even do that. Jitsu, I feel might be scum hunting, what are you doing? Even Jer, added something. I get the feeling that he also thinks that Anata is scum, because he thinks Sudo is. However, Mexal I am not sure. He agrees with Jitsu's post, but doesnt understand why I thought Anata was being lazy...this doesnt make since, please explain Mexal...and again, can I just have your case in three bullet points, I read Jitsu case..I want your case (even if it is Jitsu's case) in your words..why is that so hard?

Why do I have to post follow up questions when Anata doesn't even address the post that was made against her? Why do I have to be the focal point of all discussion in this game? Why is it my job to drive this game along by posting follow up questions to everyone? Isn't it possible that my goal was to see who defended Anata? Isn't it possible that I wanted to see what other people did? You keep making these assumptions that I'm the one supposed to be leading the town but by doing that, how do I get a full picture of the game? If I want to post follow up questions, I do it. If I want to post a case, I do it. If I just want to follow a case, I'll do that as well. My playstyle is what it is. Don't expect me to be the master leading all the dogs around by a leash. It's funny that you're attacking me for this considering how much content I've provided for this game. This is one of the reasons I DIDN'T make a case. This is one of the reasons I didn't follow up with a crapload of pressure. Simply put, I wanted to see who defended her and now I know.

This is a very interesting quote and I think everyone should read 2-3 times. “Why do I have to post follow up questions when Anata doesn't even address the post that was made against her?” This particular point is not about Anata it is about you. So say you didn’t like how Anata deflected attention by mentioning the vote. But aren’t you doing the same thing here. Avoiding direct questions to you by deflecting back to Anata? By your own standards isn’t that scummy? I also not your appeals for emotion. “Why do I have to be the focal point of all discussion in this game?” Wow. At this current time, if the entire game was poled, do you really think you would be the focal point? You are either really narcissistic or appealing for emotion. If you really are town, it is your job to scum hunt. I find you increasing scummy after this post. You are defending your actions of not asking direct follow up questions to Anata because you want us to believe it is not your job to ask follow up questions…however, you have asked me over a dozen questions. Anyone else feeling this is suspicious? Why is it so hard for you to post your case against Anata in your own words? I want bullet points IN YOUR WORDS. IT can be the same “reasons” as Jitsu….but I want it from you, not a quote from Jitsu.

For those currently voting Anata, my question is, why go after Anata if you think Sudo is scum?…What if Sudo comes up town? How does that effect your thoughts on Anata? I bet it does to some degree.

Why do we have to think Sudo is scummier? We obviously think Anata is scum so why can't we vote for her? I'll let you know my thoughts on Sudo when Anata is lynched

Well in Jitsu’s case that you stated as your own he said.

Also, I get the impression that you may have been trying to help out Sudo by deflecting suspicion from him.

Now why would Anata do that unless they were both scum together? This post is going on the assumption that Sudo is scum and Anata is trying to help him. What if Sudo was town, then what is Anata trying to do? Seems to me that part of Anata’s guilt in your point of view is by association with Sudo. Which is funny, because you now think I am scummy, because of my “defending” of Anata. Your entire “case” against me is based own your attack (or I should say Jitsu’s, because you apparently lack the ability to provide your own case and need to rely on a newbie) of Anata.

What if Anata comes up town, how does that effect your thoughts on Sudo? I have a feeling it really doesn’t.

What's your point?

Seems to me like Sudo is the one you really want to be voting, if Sudo comes up scum, this is looks quite bad for Anata.

these two quote go together. As stated above your case has a lot to do with Sudo alignment. Another reason you state you want to lynch Anata is for information. Well, seems to me that lynching Sudo (to you) would provide more information than the other way around. I also think it is funny that you don’t want to lynch Mitzek because it wont provide enough info. I think it will provide tons. For instance, you seems to be completely ignoring him, why is that? I am actively pushing a case against him, wont that provide info to you about me? I am noting the blind eye you are turning toward Mitzef, does that say anything about your alignment at this point? No…but if Mitzef comes up scum, it doesn’t look good for you.

This all being said, I think Mitzef is the lynch today. He is scummy all by himself (as is Gunslinger)…I would also not be against pressuring (even lynching) Sudo more as it could provide much info.

He might be scummy, but he's not the lynch for today, especially with you defending Anata rather strongly.

How does Sudo provide more info than Anata? You seem to believe that we're only voting for Anata because of Sudo. On top of that, you're defending her. What info would we gain from lynching Miztef? Gunslinger? Sudo?

I am bolding the below, because this is important.

Sweet Christ. I am surprised one no broke down this post yet. SO you think Mitzef is scummy? Where the crap did that come from? I skimmed your post and I cant find one post that you voted for Mitzef, mention you thought he was scummy, or even questioned or probed him. You have only really ignored him (unless I missed a post) and a couple posts agreed with him. Why do you think Mitzef is scummy? Why have you waited to tell the town this until now? If you think he is scummy, why are you voting for the person he wants to lynch? Why is he not the lynch for today? If you think I am defending Anata, I think you are ignoring Mitzef. I think just as much information can now be discovered by lynching Mitzef. I am not pushing for a Sudo lynch or Gunslinger lynch at this point….I want Mitzef to hang. You think he is scum too, where is your vote for Mitzef?

Mexal, there are a ton of questions for you here this time, please answer them this time.

[curiouskarmadog]

at any rate, I will have time tomorrow to post, and this game is the first on my agenda....I think people need to seriously look at Mitzef.

Huh? Why do you keep saying this like we are not looking seriously at him. We are -- he is number two or higher on many of our lynch-want-lists, and nobody really seems to believe anything he is saying.

wasnt so much directed towards you, Jitsu, I am getting a town vibe off of you and feel that you are actively looking for scum. This was directed toward those in the town who are not voting or have not chimed in awhile.....and I guess the replacements to come.

[Mexal]

My win condition is to lynch scum, not obtain information from a lynch…what is yours?

Interesting win condition. Mine is that I win the game when all the scum are lynched, not specifically to lynch scum. I believe Anata is scum. I've said that enough times. I also believe it gives us the most information for later in the game. That's a side benefit of lynching Anata. The game doesn't end on day 1 just so you know.

How am I protecting her when you probed me for the information?

Because your entire argument for her was that she's lazy while pushing Miztef like he's the Unibomber. Your response for all the inconsistencies in her post was laziness. That's it. Then you moved on.

“Why do I have to post follow up questions when Anata doesn't even address the post that was made against her?” This particular point is not about Anata it is about you. So say you didn’t like how Anata deflected attention by mentioning the vote. But aren’t you doing the same thing here. Avoiding direct questions to you by deflecting back to Anata? By your own standards isn’t that scummy?

No. I didn't avoid the questions. I told you flat out that I did not want to make a case against her because I agreed with Jitsu's post. Just because I decided PUBLICALLY that I didn't want to spend my time making a case that's been made doesn't mean I was avoiding it. Just because I didn't post follow up questions when no response WAS EVER GIVEN to the case doesn't mean I was avoiding it. Avoiding it would to pretend it was never said and discuss other points. I never did that. I told you repeatedly I did not want to make a case. You seem to be forgetting that.

I also not your appeals for emotion. “Why do I have to be the focal point of all discussion in this game?” Wow. At this current time, if the entire game was poled, do you really think you would be the focal point? You are either really narcissistic or appealing for emotion. If you really are town, it is your job to scum hunt. I find you increasing scummy after this post. You are defending your actions of not asking direct follow up questions to Anata because you want us to believe it is not your job to ask follow up questions…however, you have asked me over a dozen questions. Anyone else feeling this is suspicious? Why is it so hard for you to post your case against Anata in your own words? I want bullet points IN YOUR WORDS. IT can be the same “reasons” as Jitsu….but I want it from you, not a quote from Jitsu.

You don't like my appeal to emotion? Sorry, but it's entirely your fault. You pushed me to it by repeatedly asking for the same thing when I repeatedly told you I did not want to do it. My whole post reeks of frustration because frankly, I was frustrated and that's what happens when I reach my breaking point. You think it was a ploy to put that much emotion into a post? Interesting.

I asked you a dozen questions because you warranted a dozen questions. Why ask Anata a dozen questions when she never even answered the original questions? Maybe I would have asked follow up questions if she bothered to address the original points. Doesn't that seem conceivable?

It's not hard for me to post a case against Anata. It's the fact that A. I wanted to see what people did and B. I didn't feel the need to rehash what people say. I'm not a parrot. I told you I agreed with Jitsu's post, that should be enough. You were going after me BEFORE Anata was even lynched. Had she turned out to be town, then maybe you'd have a point. Had she turned out to be scum, you'd look like an ass. But she didn't turn out to be anything because she wasn't lynched. So your entire tirade was premature at best. It's like you're already sowing seeds of doubt on me before you even know what she is. Or do you know what her alignment is?

these two quote go together. As stated above your case has a lot to do with Sudo alignment. Another reason you state you want to lynch Anata is for information. Well, seems to me that lynching Sudo (to you) would provide more information than the other way around. I also think it is funny that you don’t want to lynch Mitzek because it wont provide enough info. I think it will provide tons. For instance, you seems to be completely ignoring him, why is that? I am actively pushing a case against him, wont that provide info to you about me? I am noting the blind eye you are turning toward Mitzef, does that say anything about your alignment at this point? No…but if Mitzef comes up scum, it doesn’t look good for you.

Sure it would. But it only provides info about you and jerubbaal I could get that info by lynching Anata while also getting info on Jitsu, jerubbaal, you, Miztef, AA...but meh, it doesn't matter. You don't get that this game is longer than a day.

As for Miztef coming up scum, how does it look bad for me? Because I don't deem to comment on him besides the fact that I find him scummy? Maybe.

Sweet Christ. I am surprised one no broke down this post yet. SO you think Mitzef is scummy? Where the crap did that come from? I skimmed your post and I cant find one post that you voted for Mitzef, mention you thought he was scummy, or even questioned or probed him. You have only really ignored him (unless I missed a post) and a couple posts agreed with him. Why do you think Mitzef is scummy? Why have you waited to tell the town this until now? If you think he is scummy, why are you voting for the person he wants to lynch? Why is he not the lynch for today? If you think I am defending Anata, I think you are ignoring Mitzef. I think just as much information can now be discovered by lynching Mitzef. I am not pushing for a Sudo lynch or Gunslinger lynch at this point….I want Mitzef to hang. You think he is scum too, where is your vote for Mitzef?

Lets answer these one at a time.

Yes. I think Miztef is scummy. It's been there the whole game. You assume I don't read the thread but I do and I've read your case on him. I agree with it. I think he's scummy because he started out strong, back peddled, played to people's expectations of him as opposed to his own style, made an excuse for his playstyle based on others thinking he's always scum (which was a WIFOM argument btw). I waited because I thought others needed attention. You were giving him attention so I didn't. I am voting for Anata because I find her scummier. That doesn't mean I don't find him scummy. I didn't say they were partners, I said I found them scummy. If Anata is town, then maybe Miztef is scum. If Anata is scum, maybe Miztef is town. They don't have to both be scum to both be scummy. It's day 1. I've explained multiple times why I believe Anata to be the lynch for today. If you've read my posts like you seem to have, you already know. Read them again. If the town rather lynch Miztef then Anata, then I'll lynch him. But I think Anata is scummier and would rather lynch her.

I think that about covers it. Are you having fun yet?

[curiouskarmadog]

Because some people are still keen on lynching me, can I get all the points against me so I can defend myself? I believe I tried to defend myself before, but I'm a little confused as to what makes me so especially scummy.

I find it kind of ridiculous that karmadog posted a whole bunch of stuff regarding anata and some others, yet hasn't talked about the case against me lately, whom he seems to be keen on lynching. My impression is basically that karmadog is either mafia going after the easy lynches, or just has a grudge against me for voting him earlier.

Grudge? You mean for your random vote to “get things going” from the top of Page 2? You are ridiculous. Here is your case.

1.) You are opportunistic. You have constantly jumped on the wagon of the hour without providing any content what so ever. Where ever the suspicion or votes go as does your vote through out this entire game!
2.) You claim to have a “bunch of mafia experience” but then you post these gem.

I wasn't shocked that no one voted me at that specific time, just that there were no votes on me at all, random or otherwise. Usually my gameplay is seen is heavily scummy right from the get go, so it's just a different feeling for me.

oh, and yes, I'm an extremely impatient player. Not to get the day finished per say, I just like to keep things moving at a fast pace. This game is getting a bit fast though, so I think I'll try to slow down a bit.

I've noticed that in games where I'm mafia, people tend not to suspect me for a good while, cause I tend to play more cautious. When I'm town, people tend to jump at me right away, since I play however I feel like ><.

OK.

So, as town, I tend to be completely careless with my actions, impatient, and jumpy.

However, as scum, I tend to play more cautiously, and keep myself under the radar. That's why in game's where I'm civilian, I tend to be attacked quite early on, and many times I stay the center of attention for long periods of time.

This game is going crazy fast in my opinion, even for my impatient self. That's why I feel it should be slowed down slightly. I'm not talking about everyone lurking or anything like that, just a little more thought to things, instead of super fast accusations on many people.

3.) you say I am trying to get an easy lynch (deflecting off of you)

No one asked you how you play when you are mafia. You just felt like providing this information for no reason. Anybody wonder why he is pushing so hard to let us know how he plays when he is mafia unprovoked, yet he has not tried to scum hunt once at this point? Why is he already defending himself instead of looking for scum? I also think it is ironic that as soon as he posts these, his play turns cautious.

Also why do you label yourself an easy lynch? Have you done something that makes you an easy lynch?


4.) Your words say it best here don’t they?

His spreading of suspicion (me, gunslinger, mexal, sudo, anata?) is quite large, and gives me the impression that he is trying to make sure he can slip between votes and look more innocent no matter who is lynched.

LOL, hypocrite, this is all from the same quote.

.

Jerubbaal - Neutral/

scummy

. Kinda just pops in and out. I don't particularly find his arguments bad, just not very useful. I would keep an eye on him later days, but not a good lynch candidate for today.

CKD -

Scummy

. Don't like most of his arguments. They are rarely very clear and he gets emotional (it seems). Of course, it's very OMGUS of me to think him scummy but meh, that's how it is.

Korlash - Neutral. Very odd player.

Some posts scream scum to me

, others make me think he is very town. Just kinda random.

Gunslinger -

Scummy

. I think everyone knows he seems scummy. Not much else to say.

Anata -

Scummy

. Shocking isn't it? Even if I didn't think she was scummy, the way the town is going, it's basically me or her, so I have to be against her.

Sudo -

Scummy

/Other - As others have pointed out, Sudo seems to have ulterior motives, yet is not especially scummy. I'd want to keep him around just to see how it goes.

SO what does that say about you, given your own logic?

5.) your OMGUS suck vote against me.

if he is scum, His semi-protection of anata makes me believe she is also more likely scum.

Don't care how OMGUS this seems, I feel karmadog is most scummy at this time, and am going to

vote: Curiouskarmadog

You didn’t even present a case against me. The only reason you stated I was scum, was by suggesting I am casting a large net. Why am I scummy?

6.) Has not tried to scum hunt once this game. I challenge everyone to read through his post and find where he is attempting to find scum? Then ask yourself, why is isn’t trying to find scum.

Mitzef, why haven’t you tried to find scum?
7.) You are trying to push cases against me and Anata currently without backing your vote up with a case.

[Mexal]

This is annoying. Miztef is scummy...very scummy. CKD's last post proves it. But there is a nagging doubt that I have that he's town...mainly because he's so scummy it hurts. He's such an easy target that it just bothers me. I've made similar cases on people before...most recently in a game on SA where I was scum. There are town that make it incredibly easy to make a case on and Miztef seems like he's one of those. But...he could be scum so meh. It's day 1 and it's hard to get a better case than that which really bothers me.

Annoying...

[curiouskarmadog]

bold is me.

My win condition is to lynch scum, not obtain information from a lynch…what is yours?

Interesting win condition. Mine is that I win the game when all the scum are lynched, not specifically to lynch scum. I believe Anata is scum. I've said that enough times. I also believe it gives us the most information for later in the game. That's a side benefit of lynching Anata. The game doesn't end on day 1 just so you know.

How can a Anata provide more information than a Mitzef lynch?

How am I protecting her when you probed me for the information?

Because your entire argument for her was that she's lazy while pushing Miztef like he's the Unibomber. Your response for all the inconsistencies in her post was laziness. That's it. Then you moved on.

I moved on? Then you really need to read the post again...did you read the bits where I said some of her actions were scummy, or could be scummy?

“Why do I have to post follow up questions when Anata doesn't even address the post that was made against her?” This particular point is not about Anata it is about you. So say you didn’t like how Anata deflected attention by mentioning the vote. But aren’t you doing the same thing here. Avoiding direct questions to you by deflecting back to Anata? By your own standards isn’t that scummy?

No. I didn't avoid the questions. I told you flat out that I did not want to make a case against her because I agreed with Jitsu's post. Just because I decided PUBLICALLY that I didn't want to spend my time making a case that's been made doesn't mean I was avoiding it. Just because I didn't post follow up questions when no response WAS EVER GIVEN to the case doesn't mean I was avoiding it. Avoiding it would to pretend it was never said and discuss other points. I never did that. I told you repeatedly I did not want to make a case. You seem to be forgetting that.

Why are you afraid to post your own case against someone you deem scum in your own words? I have asked 4 times now.

I also not your appeals for emotion. “Why do I have to be the focal point of all discussion in this game?” Wow. At this current time, if the entire game was poled, do you really think you would be the focal point? You are either really narcissistic or appealing for emotion. If you really are town, it is your job to scum hunt. I find you increasing scummy after this post. You are defending your actions of not asking direct follow up questions to Anata because you want us to believe it is not your job to ask follow up questions…however, you have asked me over a dozen questions. Anyone else feeling this is suspicious? Why is it so hard for you to post your case against Anata in your own words? I want bullet points IN YOUR WORDS. IT can be the same “reasons” as Jitsu….but I want it from you, not a quote from Jitsu.

You don't like my appeal to emotion? Sorry, but it's entirely your fault. You pushed me to it by repeatedly asking for the same thing when I repeatedly told you I did not want to do it. My whole post reeks of frustration because frankly, I was frustrated and that's what happens when I reach my breaking point. You think it was a ploy to put that much emotion into a post? Interesting.

You ignore my questions and comments in this posts. You state it is not your job to ask follow up questions, but you have asked me many. You had no questions for Anata? Now that we are getting a replacement for her, you are going to keep pushing a case, that the replacement cant defend?

I asked you a dozen questions because you warranted a dozen questions. Why ask Anata a dozen questions when she never even answered the original questions? Maybe I would have asked follow up questions if she bothered to address the original points. Doesn't that seem conceivable?

What orginal questions did you ask ANata?

It's not hard for me to post a case against Anata. It's the fact that A. I wanted to see what people did and B. I didn't feel the need to rehash what people say. I'm not a parrot. I told you I agreed with Jitsu's post, that should be enough. You were going after me BEFORE Anata was even lynched. Had she turned out to be town, then maybe you'd have a point. Had she turned out to be scum, you'd look like an ass. But she didn't turn out to be anything because she wasn't lynched. So your entire tirade was premature at best. It's like you're already sowing seeds of doubt on me before you even know what she is. Or do you know what her alignment is?

I am "going after you" because you are ignoring actual scummy people.

these two quote go together. As stated above your case has a lot to do with Sudo alignment. Another reason you state you want to lynch Anata is for information. Well, seems to me that lynching Sudo (to you) would provide more information than the other way around. I also think it is funny that you don’t want to lynch Mitzek because it wont provide enough info. I think it will provide tons. For instance, you seems to be completely ignoring him, why is that? I am actively pushing a case against him, wont that provide info to you about me? I am noting the blind eye you are turning toward Mitzef, does that say anything about your alignment at this point? No…but if Mitzef comes up scum, it doesn’t look good for you.

Sure it would. But it only provides info about you and jerubbaal I could get that info by lynching Anata while also getting info on Jitsu, jerubbaal, you, Miztef, AA...but meh, it doesn't matter. You don't get that this game is longer than a day.

As for Miztef coming up scum, how does it look bad for me? Because I don't deem to comment on him besides the fact that I find him scummy? Maybe.

It makes you look like his scum partner because you have just stated you felt he was scummy, without providing a case against him. Without voting him ever..the only thing you have done this game in reference to Mitzef is agree with him. You have voted other people in the game you thought scummy...you have applied pressure to other people in the game you wanted us to believe was scummy...Why have you not attakced Mitzef once? Asked him just one question? You could be his scum partner, because you are afraid to vote him..or even present a case against him. Or even acknowledge that just has much infromation can be found in a MItzef lynch as an Anata lynch.

Sweet Christ. I am surprised one no broke down this post yet. SO you think Mitzef is scummy? Where the crap did that come from? I skimmed your post and I cant find one post that you voted for Mitzef, mention you thought he was scummy, or even questioned or probed him. You have only really ignored him (unless I missed a post) and a couple posts agreed with him. Why do you think Mitzef is scummy? Why have you waited to tell the town this until now? If you think he is scummy, why are you voting for the person he wants to lynch? Why is he not the lynch for today? If you think I am defending Anata, I think you are ignoring Mitzef. I think just as much information can now be discovered by lynching Mitzef. I am not pushing for a Sudo lynch or Gunslinger lynch at this point….I want Mitzef to hang. You think he is scum too, where is your vote for Mitzef?

Lets answer these one at a time.

Yes. I think Miztef is scummy. It's been there the whole game. You assume I don't read the thread but I do and I've read your case on him. I agree with it. I think he's scummy because he started out strong, back peddled, played to people's expectations of him as opposed to his own style, made an excuse for his playstyle based on others thinking he's always scum (which was a WIFOM argument btw). I waited because I thought others needed attention. You were giving him attention so I didn't. I am voting for Anata because I find her scummier. That doesn't mean I don't find him scummy. I didn't say they were partners, I said I found them scummy. If Anata is town, then maybe Miztef is scum. If Anata is scum, maybe Miztef is town. They don't have to both be scum to both be scummy. It's day 1. I've explained multiple times why I believe Anata to be the lynch for today. If you've read my posts like you seem to have, you already know. Read them again. If the town rather lynch Miztef then Anata, then I'll lynch him. But I think Anata is scummier and would rather lynch her.

I think that about covers it. Are you having fun yet?

Let me get this straight...if the town wants to lynch Mitzef you will lynch him? Currently the only people voting Anata is Jit, you, and MItzef

there are 3 people voting Mitzef...me, AA, and jerb..

if you take Anata and Mitzef out of the equation (because they are the lynch canididates today)..that is 3 versus 2....why dont you back up your words with a vote.

[curiouskarmadog]

This is annoying. Miztef is scummy...very scummy. CKD's last post proves it. But there is a nagging doubt that I have that he's town...mainly because he's so scummy it hurts. He's such an easy target that it just bothers me. I've made similar cases on people before...most recently in a game on SA where I was scum. There are town that make it incredibly easy to make a case on and Miztef seems like he's one of those. But...he could be scum so meh. It's day 1 and it's hard to get a better case than that which really bothers me.

Annoying...

It is so scummy it hurts? Like someone is so pro-town he must be scummy?

not only his he scummy, it NOW provides the town with tons of information...why are you afraid for the town to have this information?

He is an easy target NOW I have presented my case. Why is he an easy target?..because he has played scummy the whole game...hey, here is a great idea, maybe he has played scummy, because he is scum.

[Mexal]

How can a Anata provide more information than a Mitzef lynch?

I have posted this several times. Reread my posts if you don't remember.

I moved on? Then you really need to read the post again...did you read the bits where I said some of her actions were scummy, or could be scummy?

Yup, must have missed it among the laziness defense. Then again, I do remember you claiming Anata didn't bother you so meh.

Why are you afraid to post your own case against someone you deem scum in your own words? I have asked 4 times now.

You seem to think I'm afraid of something. I'm not. I choose not to. Why can't you get past this? You're stuck on this like it's a big deal. It's not. It's my choice and I have said this more times than I can count. Why don't you ask again? Maybe the answer will be different.

You ignore my questions and comments in this posts. You state it is not your job to ask follow up questions, but you have asked me many. You had no questions for Anata? Now that we are getting a replacement for her, you are going to keep pushing a case, that the replacement cant defend?

Which questions did I ignore? The focal point? You tied that directly into me being narcisstic or appealing to emotion. I said I was emotional. Your other question wasn't directed at me so I didn't answer it. The final question is why I can't post a case in my own words. I think I've posted about that already but maybe I'm mistaken

As for Anata, you're a fucking idiot. Sorry, but you are. You're FORCING me to push a case on Anata. And this all started BEFORE she asked for a replacement. So your point is invalid.

We could also mention that once the pressure was turned up, she conveniently asked for a replacement and that everything against Anata then becomes invalid. And it seems you're ok with this. Interesting.

What orginal questions did you ask ANata?

When did I ever say I did? Now you're misrepresenting my words and the situation. Keep trying.

It makes you look like his scum partner because you have just stated you felt he was scummy, without providing a case against him. Without voting him ever..the only thing you have done this game in reference to Mitzef is agree with him. You have voted other people in the game you thought scummy...you have applied pressure to other people in the game you wanted us to believe was scummy...Why have you not attakced Mitzef once? Asked him just one question? You could be his scum partner, because you are afraid to vote him..or even present a case against him. Or even acknowledge that just has much infromation can be found in a MItzef lynch as an Anata lynch.

I could be. Save this for tomorrow if we lynch Miztef and he turns up scum

Let me get this straight...if the town wants to lynch Mitzef you will lynch him? Currently the only people voting Anata is Jit, you, and MItzef

there are 3 people voting Mitzef...me, AA, and jerb..

if you take Anata and Mitzef out of the equation (because they are the lynch canididates today)..that is 3 versus 2....why dont you back up your words with a vote.

You're trying so hard to lynch Miztef. Would you feel like an ass if you were wrong? My vote isn't on Miztef because I think Anata is scummier. I don't need to vote yet. Voting now wouldn't prove anything anyway except make Miztef the more likely lynch since I'd be the swing vote. I don't want to do that yet. I'm having too much fun with you atm.

[Mexal]

This is annoying. Miztef is scummy...very scummy. CKD's last post proves it. But there is a nagging doubt that I have that he's town...mainly because he's so scummy it hurts. He's such an easy target that it just bothers me. I've made similar cases on people before...most recently in a game on SA where I was scum. There are town that make it incredibly easy to make a case on and Miztef seems like he's one of those. But...he could be scum so meh. It's day 1 and it's hard to get a better case than that which really bothers me.

Annoying...

It is so scummy it hurts? Like someone is so pro-town he must be scummy?

not only his he scummy, it NOW provides the town with tons of information...why are you afraid for the town to have this information?

He is an easy target NOW I have presented my case. Why is he an easy target?..because he has played scummy the whole game...hey, here is a great idea, maybe he has played scummy, because he is scum.

Just out of curiousity, how many games have you played?

He's not far off when he says someone can be so pro-town that they're probably scummy. I play a fantastic scum. I know several others that come across as the most pro-town player you'll ever see. There are other ways to catch these people though as you won't do it normally by just their posts.

Again, you think I'm afraid of something. I find that mildly humerous. You nailed it right on the head on why he's an easy target...because he's so scummy it's obvious. Experience tells me that 80% of the people like that are town. But that has never stopped me from lynching them in the past and I doubt it'll stop me now. I rather lynch Anata though

[jerubbaal]

The problem is, everyone is inept. Gunslinger is inept. Sudo is inept. Miztef seems inept. Anata is inept. Korlash even seems inept on some points. This is pretty much a newbie game and

if everything that looks scummy is considered inept, then how am I supposed to find scum?

If I don't like something, I'm going to post about it, regardless of the experience level of the player. Random.org does not discriminate. It wouldn't be the first time a newbie played a scum role poorly. It's not the easiest thing to play in your first game, especially when you cannot talk with your partners during the day to help work out what you're supposed to be doing. This is the most likely time you'll notice mistakes by new scum...when they have no help from anyone else. So while you might see my post as a disappointment, I do not.

This is annoying. Miztef is scummy...very scummy. CKD's last post proves it. But there is a nagging doubt that I have that he's town...mainly because he's so scummy it hurts. He's such an easy target that it just bothers me. I've made similar cases on people before...most recently in a game on SA where I was scum. There are town that make it incredibly easy to make a case on and Miztef seems like he's one of those. But...he could be scum so meh. It's day 1 and it's hard to get a better case than that which really bothers me.

I really don't like this strain of argument. You seem to be arguing against yourself here. Originally, you posted on the importance of being able to hold people accountable for their actions, even if they made really stupid mistakes, i.e. mistakes that seem too obvious for scum. You directly argue against the assumption made by many that laziness could be an excuse for bad posting, and in this last quote, you're making the WIFOM point that Miztef is too scummy to be scum. You're doing exactly what you criticized others for, assuming ineptitude instead of scum.

What is it about Miztef's scuminess that is qualitatively different than Anata's also obvious scuminess?

He's not far off when he says someone can be so pro-town that they're probably scummy. I play a fantastic scum. I know several others that come across as the most pro-town player you'll ever see. There are other ways to catch these people though as you won't do it normally by just their posts.

I don't bite. I'm not saying that someone who appears to be entirely pro-town can't possibly be scum, but at the same time, I don't see any possible way that you can stand on that reason to make a case. That's almost the definition of WIFOM: he's so pro-town, he must be scum.

You suggest that their are other ways to catch pro-town looking scum, and that's very true. Seems like these generally come in on later days, when we have cop investigations to help out and such. For the first day, I really don't see what else we have to go on other than scummy posting and your vague instinct that Miztef is too scummy to be scum.

[Mexal]

I really don't like this strain of argument. You seem to be arguing against yourself here. Originally, you posted on the importance of being able to hold people accountable for their actions, even if they made really stupid mistakes, i.e. mistakes that seem too obvious for scum. You directly argue against the assumption made by many that laziness could be an excuse for bad posting, and in this last quote, you're making the WIFOM point that Miztef is too scummy to be scum. You're doing exactly what you criticized others for, assuming ineptitude instead of scum.

You're also forgetting where I said that it has never stopped me from voting them in the past and it won't stop me here. When the person is inept beyond belief, it starts to look like he's actually inept instead of making scum mistakes. A few mistakes...maybe. Every single post another mistake? Seems a bit much to me but meh. It's gut more than anything else and I'm backing it up with my thinking.

What is it about Miztef's scuminess that is qualitatively different than Anata's also obvious scuminess?

A few things.

1. Even after his posts get ripped apart...every single one pretty much, he comes back with yet another post that's easily ripped apart. Why? Wouldn't it just be easier to fade into the background instead of setting yourself up even more?

2. He didn't disappear. Like above, he kept coming back for more. Anata didn't. She made a post that was full of inaccuracies after claiming it was comprehensive and then when questioned on it, she avoided the points being made and focused on something else. Then she disappeared. Miztef, while trying to answer the things thrown at him, has looked even more scummy. He keeps coming back for more while Anata asked for a replacement.

Those two things really get me. Everything Miztef has done is scummy. Everything. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't do a scummy thing in every single post he made and yet he's not afraid to continue to post knowing full well that everything he says is scummy. Whereas Anata made one post that was very scummy (at least to me and Jitsu) then when pressured, asked for a replacement.

don't bite. I'm not saying that someone who appears to be entirely pro-town can't possibly be scum, but at the same time, I don't see any possible way that you can stand on that reason to make a case. That's almost the definition of WIFOM: he's so pro-town, he must be scum.

He didn't make a case. He posted that he thought either me or Jitsu was scum based on the fact that people thought we were town. He even called us town so I don't really know where you're going with this.

You suggest that their are other ways to catch pro-town looking scum, and that's very true. Seems like these generally come in on later days, when we have cop investigations to help out and such. For the first day, I really don't see what else we have to go on other than scummy posting and your vague instinct that Miztef is too scummy to be scum.

Of course we have to go on scummy posts on Day 1. I've stated that already. I'm not against you lynching Miztef cause he looks scummy. I even said I'd participate. I don't understand the point of this paragraph?

[Miztef]

jesus christ people post way too much in this game.

I only skimmed cause I only have a hour, but I'll try to say what I can.

I'm claiming Vanilla Townie. If you lynch me, you will not be losing a power role, have no worries about that.

In regards to the Mexal and Jitsu comment. I don't think it's WIFOM. When 2 people are doing amazing jobs of providing logical arguments for the town, It's hard to believe that the scum would let that happen and not try to get one of their own as an influential member. Checking over the thread though, that "influential" scum could also be jerubbaal, as he participates a lot more then I had thought. I usual don't like reading his posts though, so I guess I kinda skimmed over them.

I don't even have a good defence against most of the evidence against me. Basically, I was completely off my game (if I ever had one) this game. I cared little what I posted, and didn't think about it too much. I just got back to the site after a 2 month vacation, and this is my first game (although I've joined 2 others now as well).

If my death does actually give information to the town, I guess it isn't so bad. How often do you actually hit scum day 1 anyway? The only time I've seen it was when I was the scum being lynched day 1 ><.

I think if this day goes on much longer, we are just mudding the waters. It's basically me or anata, I say place your vote.

[Mexal]

I don't even have a good defence against most of the evidence against me. Basically, I was completely off my game (if I ever had one) this game. I cared little what I posted, and didn't think about it too much. I just got back to the site after a 2 month vacation, and this is my first game (although I've joined 2 others now as well).

I've seen this excuse before and the person was scum. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now.

vote: Miztef

[Mexal]

EBWOP: I forgot to unvote.

unvote, vote: Miztef

It seems CKD that you have saved Anata for another day.

[Jitsu]

I still think Anata is the better play, but by doing the math, my hand has been forced. Mexal was right, he was the swing vote.

I cannot make a stronger case against Anata than I have, so I see it as unlikely that people will come back to her wagon unless Anata's replacement trips up and impales himself on his own sword.

By my unofficial vote count, the two leading lynch candidates are:

Miztef (4): CKD, AA, Jerub, Mexal
Anata (2): Jitsu, Miztef

I don't see anyone else making a strong case against any other candidate, so that leaves five others with choices to make: Sudo, oEJo, Anata, Jayalay, and Korlash.

For Anata to get lynched, her wagon would have to run the table to succeed, and I'm guessing that neither Anata nor her replacement will vote for themself.

Since an Anata lynch does not seem to be possible, I must honor my promise from earlier and support the Miztef wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Miztef

Yes, Anata has been saved, it seems.