Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[Elias_the_thief]

I've already said how out of this game I've been. I didnt realize deadline was that soon, and even if I did place my vote, IH still would have been lynched, since he would have had 2 votes for longer anyhow.

[Thok]

I've already said how out of this game I've been. I didnt realize deadline was that soon, and even if I did place my vote, IH still would have been lynched, since he would have had 2 votes for longer anyhow.

Feh. At 2-2 I might have placed a vote on VitR also. Possibly IH might have moved his vote also. (I'm expecting and willing to be attacked for this statement.)

[VitaminR]

Well, that lynch threw me off a bit, I have to admit.

I know you are a better player than this. Given that IH's was the lynch leader for several weeks, you had to have thought at least a little bit about who would be scum in both scenarios (if he came up scum or town).

Different scenarios don't necessarily mean that I have one at hand that is a good fit.

You've never really said anything about the case against Guardian. Guardian's play doesn't require him to be "scheming" at all, just to be extremely OMGUSy and to come up with reasons to vote IH whenever he feels like it.

It necessitates him to decide to push that heavily for the lynch of an innocent player. That's what I meant. I expected to come under fire much more before the deadline (a 2-vote lynch isn't exactly what you want to let happen) and it does seem as if you've just waited for IH to be dead first.

My thoughts about the IH lynch are a matter of public record. I mentioned that there was stuff I didn't like about him, and before deadline I said I would be OK with him as an info lynch, even though my thoughts based off of the behavior of town during the deadline had him leaning towards being town. I can see attacking me for my behavior yesterday, but not for not explaining my thoughts about IH yesterday.

Fair enough, but I hope you can see why the timing of the attack on me bothers me a bit.

Also knowing what we know now, if I was scum and you were town (and especially if Guardian is town), it would have been much stronger play for me to have voted you near the deadline (if IH gets lynched, I would be in much stronger position to claim credit for trying to avoid that, and even if you were lynched as town, then we'd stil have the whole Guardian going crazy about attacking IH thing set up.) Obviously, this is WIFOM, but it's worth noting.

Noted.

Why are you giving scum advice about who they could be trying to lynch next?

Come on, you're better than that.

Also, I think it's clear that you can get an attack on Elias and me based off of our behavior with respect to the IH wagon, and that you are trying to do so.

I think they're different cases. You don't need to change anyone's mind about anything to secure a lynch, if your aim is to get me lynched. That's the distinction I was drawing.

[Skruffs]

3 days until deadline?

TWO POSTS LATER

That. I went back and looked, and I believe I lost track of the point when I went to work at my job (weeks at a time). Elaboration will come when I have time.

How did you NOT REALIZE we were so close? After that post, you avoided the game entirely, but so did Tony, IH, and pretty m uch everyone else.

Guardian has done SO MUCH to sabotage other people's plans, let other people get lynched that he thought were town, avoiding being part of discussions that weren't related to IH and trying to basically direct the entire game to be an IH lynch. I said, yesterday, multiple times, that Guardian's 'scum list' from DAY TWO was the exact same as nwo even through three or four people have been lynched in the meanwhile. HE probably still has no real reason to think I am scum, but he has been sayign it sicne day two, he backs off when called on it, but in the next post he says it again.
In short, I do nto see Guardian's opinions as being worthwhile, anymore, because he has not put any effort into actually helping the town.

[Skruffs]

Neither thok OR Elias was voting, though I was basically asking anyone to help. You guys both avoided voting at all. THok, sayign you would have voted VitR if someone else had put him at two , that should have been mentioned BEFORE THe lynch, instead of bickering with Guardian about how you thought IH was town. If you really thought he was town, you would have put a vote on someone you SAID you THOUGHT was SCUM.


VitR - Since I think you are scum, I have to take your appeal to me with a grain of salt, but as of right now, it's more of a place holder vote. I'm cheesed at most everyone else in the game right now, especially IH, who just seemed to give up and go crazy halfway through yesterday.

Oh yeah and note that he was voting me and I was not countervoting, too. :-

[Elias_the_thief]

3 days until deadline?

TWO POSTS LATER

That. I went back and looked, and I believe I lost track of the point when I went to work at my job (weeks at a time). Elaboration will come when I have time.

How did you NOT REALIZE we were so close? After that post, you avoided the game entirely, but so did Tony, IH, and pretty m uch everyone else.

I told you I've been out of this game. Believe it or not, I doubt it really enters into your consideration on whether I'm scum or not.

[Simenon]

Vote Count

VitaminR (1)- Skruffs
TonyMoonshine (1)- Guardian

[Thok]

Neither thok OR Elias was voting, though I was basically asking anyone to help. You guys both avoided voting at all. THok, sayign you would have voted VitR if someone else had put him at two , that should have been mentioned BEFORE THe lynch, instead of bickering with Guardian about how you thought IH was town. If you really thought he was town, you would have put a vote on someone you SAID you THOUGHT was SCUM.

I wasn't that certain IH was town and I wasn't that certain VitR was scum. Remember the day of C&H where I was really ambivalent about whether I should vote SV or Glork, and ended up choosing not to make a decision?

@VitR-what do you think of the Day 5 voting action now? That was a big part of your case against IH, and I'd like to har your intepretation of it now.

[Guardian]

I said, yesterday, multiple times, that Guardian's 'scum list' from DAY TWO was the exact same as nwo even through three or four people have been lynched in the meanwhile.

X

My scum list now is
Tony
Thok
Skruffs

My scum list from DAY TWO was
IH
John
VitaminR
Skruffs

Those are not even CLOSE to being the same.

You are either not paying attention or blatantly misrepresenting me.

Thok, I re-read day 6. And I had good reasons for being suspicious of Tony, and of you. If I found something different that made mroe sense I'd pursue that, but I'm not going to abandon reason and randomly pick someone different just because they are different. Especially considering that I find it highly likely Elias and VitaminR are town.

[Thok]

Thok, I re-read day 6. And I had good reasons for being suspicious of Tony, and of you. If I found something different that made mroe sense I'd pursue that, but I'm not going to abandon reason and randomly pick someone different just because they are different. Especially considering that I find it highly likely Elias and VitaminR are town.

I'd like to hear your current case for suspecting me, and if you are town, I think actually presenting that case will give you a better feel for it. I will point out that you've now been shown to be wrong about your case on IH and you thoughts about Romanus, (and note I was right about both of those when I replaced in) and that from what I can tell, your case on me is similar in style in that it focuses mainly on playstyle.

I also feel like you are massively overvaluing the whole "Romanus attacked Guardian because there was only one person in the final four". That is one interpretation, but you shouldn't completely ignore the other interpretations. I can certainly see scenarios where you are town and VitaminR is scum who has massively tried to get on your good side the last few days.

[Elias_the_thief]

Guardian, why do you feel that Vit is town again? If I missed a post, feel free to quote it or direct me to a post number.

[Guardian]

Elias, Thok basically explained it in the post above. Maybe I am massively overevaluating this, but that really makes me think you and VitaminR are town.

[Thok]

I'd like to hear your current case for suspecting me, and if you are town, I think actually presenting that case will give you a better feel for it. I will point out that you've now been shown to be wrong about your case on IH and you thoughts about Romanus, (and note I was right about both of those when I replaced in) and that from what I can tell, your case on me is similar in style in that it focuses mainly on playstyle.

Repeating my request for Guardian.

[Thok]

Also double posting to say some stuff about this.

Well, that lynch threw me off a bit, I have to admit.

I know you are a better player than this. Given that IH's was the lynch leader for several weeks, you had to have thought at least a little bit about who would be scum in both scenarios (if he came up scum or town).

Different scenarios don't necessarily mean that I have one at hand that is a good fit.

The IH lynch had been the most likely lynch for about 3 weeks. You could have thought about the implications during that time.

You've never really said anything about the case against Guardian. Guardian's play doesn't require him to be "scheming" at all, just to be extremely OMGUSy and to come up with reasons to vote IH whenever he feels like it.

It necessitates him to decide to push that heavily for the lynch of an innocent player. That's what I meant. I expected to come under fire much more before the deadline (a 2-vote lynch isn't exactly what you want to let happen) and it does seem as if you've just waited for IH to be dead first.

Because you've never ever seen a scum focus on a single player as a way to avoid discussing other issues. Shall I point you to multiple examples of where this has happened with other players?

Would you have prefered if some combination of Elias, IH, or I had voted you on Friday? You would likely have been lynched without much discussion and we'd still have the IH-Guardian thing going on.

My thoughts about the IH lynch are a matter of public record. I mentioned that there was stuff I didn't like about him, and before deadline I said I would be OK with him as an info lynch, even though my thoughts based off of the behavior of town during the deadline had him leaning towards being town. I can see attacking me for my behavior yesterday, but not for not explaining my thoughts about IH yesterday.

Fair enough, but I hope you can see why the timing of the attack on me bothers me a bit.

It's not like this came out of nowhere; both Elias and I had discussion of your possible scumminess for at least a week before the deadline. Frankly, the time to push us into a voting position was before the deadline hit. I feel like you spent a lot of the time before the deadline just doing some loose defense of yourself and not really scumhunting.

Did you ever think about what the lack of voting/lack of enery in town going into the deadline meant?

Moreover, I would expect an attack on you to bother you, independent of the timing. Trying to focus on the timing is an attempt to make the attacks on you look worse then they actually are, IMHO.

Why are you giving scum advice about who they could be trying to lynch next?

Come on, you're better than that.

No, this is a valid point. I don't really think town would go "Oh no, scum can push a wagon on player X now." It's also possible that you are scum and Guardian isn't scum, and that you are setting up a connection with him. But really this is me feeling that protown you wouldn't have made the relevant statement.

Also, I think it's clear that you can get an attack on Elias and me based off of our behavior with respect to the IH wagon, and that you are trying to do so.

I think they're different cases. You don't need to change anyone's mind about anything to secure a lynch, if your aim is to get me lynched. That's the distinction I was drawing.

Even with Skruffs (who I would expect to be somewhat fickle), Elias, and I that's only three people. Also, at best your insulting Skruffs by suggesting that he wouldn't consider the implications of the behavior by town near deadline.

[Guardian]

I'd like to hear your current case for suspecting me, and if you are town, I think actually presenting that case will give you a better feel for it. I will point out that you've now been shown to be wrong about your case on IH and you thoughts about Romanus, (and note I was right about both of those when I replaced in) and that from what I can tell, your case on me is similar in style in that it focuses mainly on playstyle.

Repeating my request for Guardian.

Honestly, it is more of process of elimination for me, and habitual thought. Maybe I should really re-evaluate my suspicion of you.

I may be incorrect in this, but really I think the most plausible explanation of Romanus's behavior is me-Vitr-Elias town.

Tony has been extremely suspicious, so he is my number one.

It is then you or Skruffs.

My past thoughts on you were that you were way too sure of your thoughts and defended people I thought were scum, and attacked those I thought were town, and then your deadline actions with Setael.

But considering how wrong I was on IH, maybe part of this is not valid.

So then I would have you below Skruffs. Skruffs has been kind of suspicious; he keeps bitching at me that I should find him town, and has done some inconsistent and/or OMGUSy stuff.

I could see VitaminR possibly as scum. His deadline actions are what throw me off. I still think he is more likely town than you though.

Elias has been the one person I was pretty sure was town all game. He is definitely less suspicious than you. A lot of this is due to his lurking, but really, I think he is likely town.

I do think my vote for Tony is very well founded though, considering his voting record and lack of contribution.

So yeah, Thok, maybe putting you second is misfounded. Skruffs and VitaminR have both done things that might warrant putting them above you. Really, I don't have time to re-read the whole game, so putting together coherent thoughts is hard. But these are my kind of opinions right now. I'd have to re-read and reconsider to see if I think you are scum or not, but I concede that there may be reason to find others more suspicious than you.

[Skruffs]

Saying you are not sure and thus not goign to make a vote is basically allowign the people who DID vote to determine the result of the day's lynch.
Who was voting?
IH was voting me.
I was voting VitR.
VitR and Guardian was voting IH.

VitR hopped onto the IH wagon early on in the day, right? And didn't hop off... neither did Guardian. So, if he is scum, that takes him, Guardian (if guardian isn't his partner) and his partner out of the loop. Combine IH's self-destruction and everyone else's dementia/apathy, and you get an IH lynch. Apparently that was better than you risking voting for someone you thought was scum?


Guardian:
Your first big post of the game you said this:
"John, finally, is where the plan hinges. If John is scum, then VitR is in my eyes likely scum, and if Vitr is scum then IH is likely to be. They pointed out/realized that the scum shifted the wagon, and are now imo bussing their companion. John's play was also scummy in and of itself in certain aspects"
You for some reason have skipped over VitaminR and went on to IH. Why? Now that IH is dead, are you going to write off VitaminR again and move after other players?

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias has been the one person I was pretty sure was town all game. He is definitely less suspicious than you. A lot of this is due to his lurking, but really, I think he is likely town.

Yeah, pretty sure you thought I was scum for a good while midway through the game...

Anyways, I still dont see the logic for Vit being Town. Not in his recent posts has Thok explained the logic for Vit being town, just alluded to the fact that he thought it at some point. Please explain to me in your own logic why Vit seems town.

[Guardian]

I think/thought VitaminR was town because it overwhelmingly makes the most sense to me that Romanus attacked me because me-Elias-VitaminR are town.

Many are bringing this interpretation into doubt; if it is in fact faulty, I would be less sure of VitaminR's town-ness.

[Elias_the_thief]

I think/thought VitaminR was town because it overwhelmingly makes the most sense to me that Romanus attacked me because me-Elias-VitaminR are town.

Wait...what does Romanus attacking you have to do with Vit and me being town?

[Guardian]

He attacked me for suggesting bringing me him you vitr to the final 4.

If one of you two were scum, why would he attack the plan -- it would make more sense for him to support it.

[Elias_the_thief]

He attacked me for suggesting bringing me him you vitr to the final 4.

If one of you two were scum, why would he attack the plan -- it would make more sense for him to support it.

This is wifom in my opinion. Its highly possible that he predicted that the rest of the town would shoot it down, and didnt want to be the only one supporting it. As I said, seems wifom.

[Guardian]

Like I said, others are attempting to dissuade me of this. If so, I might be more receptive to cases against VitaminR...

Thok made me rethink my suspicion of him, I am beginning to wonder if I am completely off base.

Still, Tony HAS been suspicious, no? He is still my top suspect.

[Elias_the_thief]

Tony? He basically just lurked as far as I can tell. He was on a couple bad lynches, but overall not much evidence.

[Guardian]

Who is your top suspect then? VitaminR? Why do you think that he is scum?

[Elias_the_thief]

He was a major factor in leading the Occult mislynch, and he has connections to Romanus.