Doctor Who Mafia 2- GAME OVER!

[Garnasha]

by the way, caps also did quite some bad logic while I'm at it, just a bit before Xythar.

[Aisar]

SA posters: There is a clear train of reasoning that leads to the conclusion that anyone who claims that another player is his scumbuddy needs to be lynched. Simply put, there is never a good reason for a pro-town player should claim that another player is his scumbuddy (since there's no basis for the claim and it distracts from finding the real scum). Scum, by way of contrast, can have perfectly good reasons to claim that another player is their scumbuddy (it introduces all kinds of WIFOM considerations).

Given these facts and my past experiences with scumbuddy claims in games, I hold that scumbuddy claims are the biggest scumtell in the book, and that the correct response to a scumbuddy claim is to lynch the offending player and disregard the actual claim, period. This should result in the lynch of a scum and cut out any WIFOM considerations from the claim. I am unwilling to make exceptions from this policy - if a townie doesn't know that claiming a scumbuddy, even in jest, is unacceptable, then that townie needs to find out the hard way, and the loss of a single townie shouldn't lose the game for the town.

As for the "he was joking!" argument: Just because you claim to be joking doesn't mean that you should be let off the hook, except during the random vote stage (and sometimes not even then).

(Aside: I also think that scumbuddy claims should be a modkillable offense for many of the same reasons that quoting your role PM is a modkillable offense, and I will be adding a clause to that effect in any future game that I mod. Unfortunately, I'm not the mod in this game, so my opinion won't have any effect here.)

Uh, it's not like it's that hard to just ignore them. I see you're setting up to compare this to lynch all liars (the similar "if it's a townie then oh well they'll learn not to do it next time!") but in a similar way to how people generally assume all townie claims to be

true

, you can assume all scumbuddy claims to be

false

. You said yourself that they should be ignored if it turns out the person in question WAS scum, so I don't see why we can't just ignore them, period. Then they cease to be a distraction.

Seems like a far easier solution than lynching a townie just to "teach them a lesson". I'm not willing to compromise with "well we can afford to lose

just one townie

" because a) you don't know if he has a power role and I certainly don't think we should ask and b) LYNCHING TOWNIES IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA (sorry for the shouting, it's kind of a catchphrase of mine to repeat that over and over in all caps whenever somone suggests lynching a townie for 'information' or otherwise)

You start on

this

slippery slope, who knows where it'll end? Soon we'll be lynching people just because we don't like their attitude or we feel they are "too much of a distraction" and we can afford to lose

just one more townie

. We might as well not even be playing the game anymore at that point.

And that is why my vote is on you. Because despite how you try to rationalise it,

lynching townies is absolutely, positively, never a good idea

. If you had actual reason to think Aisar is scum, then it would be different, but it honestly seems like you're just trying to teach him a lesson without even caring to put any thought into whether he is scum or not. To me, that's not acceptable.

I was catching up, but I decided to post without knowing what has been said after this, because this post sets off my scumdar at like three different points. You say a scumclaim is always false, which is of course ridiculous: you carry stuff to the extreme and say that scum

only

lies, in which case they speak true, but in reverse. In that case nobody would claim scum. Such an amount of bending logic is voteworthy in itself.

Then you say lynching townie is always wrong. You're right there, but since Aisar is not confirmed town as far as I know, this is a bad argument. The way he behaved he's either

very

bad town, or scum. If he's town he's incredibly bad and, well, of course it would've been better if he hadn't been lynched, but at least we've lost no brainpower there. And I'm not going to give him a free pass because he could be a power role.
You're making it sound like Tarh is very unreasonable, "don't start this or we'll end up in a terrible situation". One of those logical fallacies, can't remember quite which.
Lynching someone for info btw. is sometimes a town winning tactic. But not often.

Last thing before I hit the submit button and go on reading and see if my intended Aisar (yes, Aisar. He caused so much trouble I'm not going to believe he's pro-town. Not outside the road to Rome. Xythar is my next target.) vote won't put him too close to getting lynched: You seem to post with some kind of assumption Aisar is scum. Why?

You are so full of crap it hurts. Seriously, is this your first game or something?

I am not helping the town? Inciting the town to discussion + outing scummy scummy scumbos like Tar is incredibly helpful. Step off your high horse for a second and stop being offended by my play, and think, actually think about what I've done. This game has an incredible postcount for the time it's been opened.

This seems to me to be a post that basically amounts to "I'm confused, let's lynch somebody who isn't scummy!"

Tar's first, and now you're next scum.

[Aisar]

@ aisar: Bandwagoning is not inherently scummy. It is a tool.

Scum often hide inside bandwagons. Scum often do other things in regards to bandwagons. Bandwagons are a good way to get concrete results that can be analyzed and interpreted later. Causing a bandwagon is not scummy, in fact, it is more likely to be town.

The same applies to the ultimate hammer. Hammering is not in and of itself scummy. If it were universally recognized as the work of only scum, then no lynch would be the result of every day, since scum would never hammer.

6 votes in an hour and a half with nobody giving a good reason is scummy on some level and you're crazy if you think otherwise.

[TaffMaster]

@ taff, my playstyle on Day 1 is to hop my vote around. I do not view my vote as sacred, but it is only one of 2 tools at my disposal during the day. So, I need to use to gain myself and the group as much information as I can. Sometimes, my vote means "I think you are scummy" and sometimes it doesn't. In a mini, I play this way, when one vote on Day 1 is 1/7 of a lynch. When it is only 1/14 I intend to use it even more cavalierly. Sometimes, my vote will be used to see what reaction it gets, from the votee or others. Sometimes, I won't want to tip the reaction I am interested in getting by announcing it up front. Sometimes, in that case, I won't want to put any reason because a bogus reason would be a lie and that wouldn't be helpful.

This is how I scumhunt on Day 1. I will not be forced into playing robotically and only voting by some pre-ordained routine forced into me.

But my point is that on this forum people appear to play robotically, using what has been tried and tested on this forum against each other to uncover scum. Now to be honest I find that inherently dumb. If you guys have really cracked what makes a person scum then how come the town dont win every game? Is there stats on this site for how many games Scum win to Town wins? Because the majority of players in this game appear to be sticking to formulas and damn them if they are wrong. Hell, the most annoying post in this whole game for me so far was this one

QFT

Unvote. Vote Taffmaster

And can we all try not to turn on each other for fast wagoning? This one is kinda blatantly obvious and I want a piece of it too.

Why? Because a player comes along, puts a vote on and then says basically "if he flips town lets not blame each other because he said something that we all know is a scum tell". What? Then what are you going to do if you lynched me and I flipped town, look at the players who didnt vote for me?

The vote was fast and fleet, which was the reason for my annoyance. YEs it was only 6 votes when 14 is a lynch, but those 6 came in an hour and a half, whats to stop me running to the store and coming back to find myself on Lynch -2. Players coming in, adding nothing to the game except to say "YES I AGREE VOTE TAFF" or "QFT VOTE TAFF" well that is dumb. Explain your vote. Use reasoning. Otherwise curse the town, because if the townies arent willing to put reasoning behind their votes then neither are the scum, and if the scum dont have to use reasoning then it makes it harder for us to find a trail later in the game.

[Garnasha]

@Aisar's latest post:

I didn't say you weren't helping town. I said the trouble you caused was too much to be interpreted by me as protown. Causing a ruckus and claiming it is to catch scum in the chaos is in my eyes the best excuse I've seen up till now in my short MS career for scum to cause chaos.

You seem to defend Xythar here, calling my case against him a load of crap.

Also, this feels a bit OMGUS since you say this after I announced to prolly vote you.

Ps. I nearly cried when I read this:

This seems to me to be a post that basically amounts to "I'm confused, let's lynch somebody who isn't scummy!"

you this bad at this game?

[Aisar]

@Aisar's latest post:

I didn't say you weren't helping town. I said the trouble you caused was too much to be interpreted by me as protown. Causing a ruckus and claiming it is to catch scum in the chaos is in my eyes the best excuse I've seen up till now in my short MS career for scum to cause chaos.

You seem to defend Xythar here, calling my case against him a load of crap.

Also, this feels a bit OMGUS since you say this after I announced to prolly vote you.

Ps. I nearly cried when I read this:

This seems to me to be a post that basically amounts to "I'm confused, let's lynch somebody who isn't scummy!"

you this bad at this game?

I didn't even mention Xythar, but okay whatev' man

But I would defend Xythar regardless. He is making sense, you aren't. You are just screaming your confusion and threatening a vote. So nice of you to cement your scummy behavior.

Seriously, does anybody on this forum know what OMGUS means or am I, again, talking to a wall?

[Aisar]

@Aisar's latest post:

I didn't say you weren't helping town. I said the trouble you caused was too much to be interpreted by me as protown. Causing a ruckus and claiming it is to catch scum in the chaos is in my eyes the best excuse I've seen up till now in my short MS career for scum to cause chaos.

You seem to defend Xythar here, calling my case against him a load of crap.

Also, this feels a bit OMGUS since you say this after I announced to prolly vote you.

Ps. I nearly cried when I read this:

This seems to me to be a post that basically amounts to "I'm confused, let's lynch somebody who isn't scummy!"

you this bad at this game?

Also can somebody else tell me if they also see FUD in his posts? I hate that term, but it seems quite obvious to me.

[cicero]

Because the majority of players in this game appear to be sticking to formulas and damn them if they are wrong. Hell, the most annoying post in this whole game for me so far was this one

QFT

Unvote. Vote Taffmaster

And can we all try not to turn on each other for fast wagoning? This one is kinda blatantly obvious and I want a piece of it too.

Why? Because a player comes along, puts a vote on and then says basically "if he flips town lets not blame each other because he said something that we all know is a scum tell". What? Then what are you going to do if you lynched me and I flipped town, look at the players who didnt vote for me?

The vote was fast and fleet, which was the reason for my annoyance. YEs it was only 6 votes when 14 is a lynch, but those 6 came in an hour and a half, whats to stop me running to the store and coming back to find myself on Lynch -2. Players coming in, adding nothing to the game except to say "YES I AGREE VOTE TAFF" or "QFT VOTE TAFF" well that is dumb. Explain your vote. Use reasoning. Otherwise curse the town, because if the townies arent willing to put reasoning behind their votes then neither are the scum, and if the scum dont have to use reasoning then it makes it harder for us to find a trail later in the game.

Go read Post 85. It lives on page 4. You probably missed it in the big distracting

poop

storm that followed.

[Garnasha]

Maybe I can see it, but first tell me what a FUD is.

And I think it OMGUSy because you immediatly start a lot of "he's full of crap" against me once I dare to attack you and Xythar.

[Battle Mage]

BM, Niv unvoted so I only have 4 votes

Thanks- previous Votecount fixed.

[Battle Mage]

Vote Count

Aisar 6 (ABR, Tarhalindur, Shteven, Vollkan, Vollkan, Niv)
Taffmaster 4 (CDB, Erg0, Theo, Cicero)
Tarhalindur 3 (Aisar, Xythar, Mcpaltp)
Niv 2 (Womensrights, Caps)
MoS 2 (Flameaxe, Chronx)
Xythar 1 (Taffmaster)

Not Voting: Sir Tornado, Theninthlayer, Garnasha, Lemming1607, Yosarian2, Longname, Yamahako, Jamuraan, Axelrod

27 alive and 27 present, means that 14 votes will lynch someone.

BM

[Aisar]

Maybe I can see it, but first tell me what a FUD is.

And I think it OMGUSy because you immediatly start a lot of "he's full of crap" against me once I dare to attack you and Xythar.

Like I said, I didn't mention Xythar once in initial attack. OMGUS would be a reasonless attack. I'm attacking you because you are willing to kill somebody for reasons other than scumminess, and you make that point clear. Killing townies isn't scummy, but killing without being sure of your vote besides special situations, like a deadline, is scummy as hell.

Your confusion is as scummy as it gets, by the way. I see you're backing out of it now but anybody can see that you were throwing your rhetorical hands in the air in confusion.

[TaffMaster]

Cicero, I went back to your post

They aren't allowed to swear in their $10 forum. It's very strict there actually. So apparently they need to come to another board to misbehave (swear, troll, insult) in a manner that would not be tolerated at somethingawful.com.

Lol, we are allowed to swear. Its just word filtered for people who are logged out.

Yes - if you turn out town everyone can lynch me next. Seems kind of a moot point to me since that was the scummiest "hey guyz I'm teh skumzz" post I've seen so far on mafia. It made me wince *before* I saw that anyone had voted you. If you are town, you don't know how to play. What did you expect to achieve from a post like that exactly?

"Hey guys...I shoore AM yore buddy. I are so happy we done so well!"

No, I wanted to express delight that we had one scum group down immediately.

Its not I dont know how to play, its that I'm not used to this strict robotic world of Mafiascum.net where you have to follow set rules. Which Ive just posted like two or three posts above why I think its dumb.

Surely you can see why it looks forced... and therefore fake... and therefore scummy, right? Since that post you and your friends have acted like people finding it scummy is preposterous. Which is either deliberately disingenuous or simply addled. And rather than just realise that the thing MIGHT be scummy, you and friend decided that it must be that everyone on the site - you know the site dedicated to mafia where a bunch of these guys do a ton of games at once and have for years (a description which does not include myself) - was stupid and worked to turn into another ridiculous little forum spat.

No, I think its that I thought we had a good night.

For the record, it isn't just that the "wiki says so" and people blindly follow it. It's that tells come up repeatedly. Part of thought includes using memory to recognise patterns. Just like it isn't a problem for me when people say "Hey - the way cicero joined the wagon could totally be scummy". I'd say fair enough and explain why I did it and my thought process like this, which I will do now:

5 people all coming and following 1 persons reasoning?

Sex

thats way more scummy.

Yes, I found it a little scummy even myself - but I had already seen his post and reacted to it exactly the same as 5 other people. A big red *SCUM* flag went up. In my post I was saying that even though in most cases a fast wagon can look really scummy, in this case it's very understandable because he made a very typical noobscum mistake.

Then post that when you vote rather than 70odd posts later

Notice how my response isn't about how someone's "mafia dick got hard"?

That was Aisar, not me. I'm not his boss.

[Xythar]

Then you say lynching townie is always wrong. You're right there, but since Aisar is not confirmed town as far as I know, this is a bad argument. The way he behaved he's either

very

bad town, or scum. If he's town he's incredibly bad and, well, of course it would've been better if he hadn't been lynched, but at least we've lost no brainpower there. And I'm not going to give him a free pass because he could be a power role.
You're making it sound like Tarh is very unreasonable, "don't start this or we'll end up in a terrible situation". One of those logical fallacies, can't remember quite which.
Lynching someone for info btw. is sometimes a town winning tactic. But not often.

Last thing before I hit the submit button and go on reading and see if my intended Aisar (yes, Aisar. He caused so much trouble I'm not going to believe he's pro-town. Not outside the road to Rome. Xythar is my next target.) vote won't put him too close to getting lynched: You seem to post with some kind of assumption Aisar is scum. Why?

I'm saying this: If we are to play the game at all, we must assume that each person is a townie until we have decided otherwise. If we do not do this, then we are not willing to listen to a single thing anyone says or vote along with anyone else. If you accept someone's post, or agree with someone's vote, then you are for now assuming they are a townie.

Since we assume people are townies until we have reason to think otherwise, we also believe claims by default, again unless we have reason to think otherwise. To that point, since no townie would truthfully claim scum (and I can't see any reason why scum would do it either), we can safely ignore all scum claims and treat them as false. If there's some situation in which a course of action

other

than this is somehow beneficial for the town then let me know, because I really can't think of one.

Then you say lynching townie is always wrong. You're right there, but since Aisar is not confirmed town as far as I know, this is a bad argument. The way he behaved he's either

very

bad town, or scum. If he's town he's incredibly bad and, well, of course it would've been better if he hadn't been lynched, but at least we've lost no brainpower there. And I'm not going to give him a free pass because he could be a power role.

Nothing Aisar has done has struck me as particularly scummy so far by my own standards. The whole claiming scum thing only disrupts the game because you let it. On SA we ignore that kind of stuff since it's obvious it's not true. Thus, I do not agree with what I feel is a false binary assertion by you.

[Garnasha]

Good, caught up reading. I look at the amount of votes on Aisar (6), then add up the chaos she caused early on, a complete WIFOM with Taff I thought about scum voting each other (Don't claim scum, LaL. Don't even joke about it.) and her reaction to my reasoning which I know to be honest, and come to the conclusion that I know exactly where my vote should be.

Vote: Aisar

Ps. Now I see you replied: you keep saying I'm confused, while I'm not. Bit tired maybe. Keep repeating it though and you might convince someone I'm barking mad and my logic sucks without them bothering to check my words.

[Garnasha]

Damn simulpost with Xythar.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Cicero and Garnasha:

Surprisingly you have said nothing about me, so can we have your thoughts of my alignment on paper ?

[Garnasha]

We let it, and Aisar let it. If it was a joke she could've stopped the whole thing before it got out of hand by saying it was a goddamn joke. I'd have added a [/joke] tag. But that vote is real as hell.

Xythar, you are just too god damn naïve. "We're going to believe claims" "Innocent untill the opposite is proven" and here, "Aisar didn't do anything real scummy". She filled three frigging pages with crap. If that's normal on SA, go back to your cave and crap on each other instead of on us.

[Garnasha]

ABR, you don't show up that strongly on my scumdar compared to Xyndar and Aisar, and it's 23:15 here by now so I'm not going to search back through the thread for the few scumtells I noticed while reading the past ten pages.

[Garnasha]

And that question about what we think of your alignment is scummy, town doesn't worry that much. Goodnight.

[Aisar]

Garnash, who taught you to smokescreen so well? Are you one of those people who thinks dead baby jokes aren't funny, and who goes around asking for petitions to impeach Bush?

I guess what I'm getting at is this: Garnash, are you a Truther? I'm being very serious here, because until my suspicious are either allayed or confirmed, there's no way I'll be able to level with you.

[Aisar]

Actually I'll just throw that question out there for anybody:

If anybody is a 9/11 Truther it would be a great help if you could identify yourselves earlier rather than later.

[Xythar]

We let it, and Aisar let it. If it was a joke she could've stopped the whole thing before it got out of hand by saying it was a goddamn joke. I'd have added a [/joke] tag. But that vote is real as hell.

Xythar, you are just too god damn naïve. "We're going to believe claims" "Innocent untill the opposite is proven" and here, "Aisar didn't do anything real scummy". She filled three frigging pages with crap. If that's normal on SA, go back to your cave and crap on each other instead of on us.

I said "until you have any reason to believe otherwise", not "until you have solid proof". If you're going to assume every single person is scum by default until you have reason to believe they are town, instead of the other way around, then by rights none of the posts in this thread should have any attention paid to them. You can't play the game like that. You need teamwork to find the scum, and when you don't know who your team actually

is

then you've just got to do exactly what I am saying.

Really, so there are 3 pages of just Aisar posts and nothing else?

I maintain that the only reason this is causing trouble because you take such issue to it. If this was SA there wouldn't BE any crap because people would've just ignored the scumclaims instead of making such a big deal out of it. It's reaction fishing, just like your early bandwagons, but in this case I think it might have worked a little TOO well.

[Flameaxe]

People play differently here. Realize it, embrace it.

[cicero]

This is a reply to 287 by Taff

It isnt robotic. You did a common scumtell. You want people to ignore things that have been shown to be relevent following repeated play. It's called experience. People who truly care about "reasoning" do not ignore experience.

If you think what we did is scummier than what you did then vote away. if you think I'm a big badass bandwagoning scumm-o then vote for me. I'm fine with it. But quit your whiny slander of the whole damn website.

Personally, I think sucking up to the town like that is something that noobish scum who don't know better do. I wouldnt have lynched you over it. But I wanted heavy pressure applied quick and I wanted on to the wagon. And I anticipated that someone would say exactly what you are saying - which is "OMG fast wagon! Scumm-os". Which left me with a bit of a dilemma. I wanted to register my opinion that what you did was really scummy but knew from experience what the reply to the wagon would be. Basically your response to the wagon is no less "robotic" then the accusation you are making. It's like clockwork:

1) Scummy move early in day one

2) Bandwagon against scummy move.

3) Accused man's retort. OMG Bandwagon fast! Scummies!!

So you are totally clockworky too my unoriginal friend.

but that's how discussion starts on here.

I was pre-empting what *I* thought of as the trite response. So if you are going to attack robots, you can't in the next breath attack me for calling the "robotic" response correctly.

And I'm not stupid - I fully expected to be challenged by someone on what I posted there. And don't mind a bit. It helps generate another branch of discussion.

So finally - some advice. Stop generalising about the site and it's playstyle. It'll be less distracting and therefore just a little more "townie". If you think the play is robotic just say "I think that's robotic" and try to get the "you guys are dumb" smug superiority out of it. The wiki doesn't make robots. It's just a repository of guidelines that are useful benchmarks for behavior that has repeatedly been engaged in by informed minority (scum) players on a site that has a massive amount of experience to draw from. You came over on a field trip to learn. Now you learned. And remember a scumtell doesn't mean you ARE absolutely scum. It just means in this case you did something that felt really really scummy to a bunch of us.

And we didnt lynch you. Day one wagons practically never go all the way to a lynch before you get back from the store. So in that respect you are attacking a straw man. Hell - let me tell you a dirty little secret. just to make you feel better...

if you had gotten NEEEEEAR a lynch, I would have jumped off the damn wagon myself. Because a day 1 with no information and one scum tell is useless. And I wouldnt have been the only one. The townies would have jumped off to collect more information before night and the scum would have jumped off to look town. It's more of our "robotic" play. But a noob - the kind that would do what you did - wouldnt know that. And might freak out! Then maybe his more experienced scumbuddy would come to his rescue! Who knows what we would uncover under that rock!

Useful, eh, this robot stuff?