Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Sudo_Nym]

Why would I try to get lynched? You forget, that while I've been around longer than some, I'm still new, and still learning. And my own style of learning is to propose as many ideas as I can, and then listen to the reaction to learn whether the idea is good or bad, and why. The massclaim idea was similar. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know exactly why- a situation that made my think there's possibility for improvement down that path.

And putting pressure on someone is not what I found funny- it's a proven technique. But declaring that it's for pressure is what seems counterproductive; it seems like it would be more effective to simply vote, wait for the response, and then explain that it was a pressure vote.

[jerubbaal]

And my answers were never designed to satisfy anybody but myself, and for good reason. I don't know you from Adam; to attempt to soothe your nerves would be a fruitless endeavor. I post to satisfy myself, mainly, as I'm the only member of the game whose mind I know, and I do this regardless of my alignment. It works out well for me, normally, but occassionally gets me into trouble.

Are you saying that you refuse to talk to us, or to answer any of our suspicions concerning your posting? This is a game about

interaction

. It strikes me as simply dumb to think that you're posting for only for yourself. The point of this game is to win, and you do not win as an individual (well, if you're an SK, fine, you do, but I doubt you're claiming SK). This isn't your personal blog.

This is a game, and the point of a game is to win. If you're playing a game well, you're playing it with the goal of winning. This "lynch me or don't lynch me, I don't give a darn" thing is utterly stupid. If you want to win, I'm pretty sure you don't want to get lynched, because it never serves the side you're on to get lynched. Unless you're a jester or something, this is just stupid gaming, plain and simple. If you're just in this thread as an expose of your personal theoretical genius, go make a blog somewhere and post there. Don't mess up the game.

I

would like to win, and if you're a townie, I would prefer that you hop off your high horse and make yourself useful.

[jerubbaal]

But declaring that it's for pressure is what seems counterproductive

You might actually be right on that one. It seems like a difficult line to walk sometimes, between making your intentions clear to the town, so that they don't get suspicious of unexplained action, and hiding your intentions from the maifa, so that they can react in a way that exposes them. I personally tend to err on the side of exposure, but maybe that's not the best way to play.

[NabakovNabakov]

Vote Count as of Post 252

Sudo_Nym (1):

GunglingerKB

Miztef (2):

curiouskarmadog, Abstract Actuary

Anata112 (3):

Jitsu, Mexal, jerubbaal

Not Voting (6):

Jayalay, Anata112, Korlash, oEJo, Sudo_Nym, Miztef

12 alive, 7 will lynch.

Apologies for continuing VC inaccuracies.

Also, I was assuming that the Korlash voters were red because you weren't counting Gunslinger's earlier vote for Korlash that wasn't bolded. Now that Gunslinger has a real vote, I'm curious. Are they red for some other reason? If this has already been explained, I apologize.

If a deadline were to hit immediately, the player highlited in red would be lynched. In that (false) VC, Korlash and Sudo_Nym were tied for the lead in votes, but Korlash had recieved his before Sudo_Nym.

[Jitsu]

Why would I try to get lynched? You forget, that while I've been around longer than some, I'm still new, and still learning. And my own style of learning is to propose as many ideas as I can, and then listen to the reaction to learn whether the idea is good or bad, and why. The massclaim idea was similar. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know exactly why- a situation that made my think there's possibility for improvement down that path.

Other than being a Jester (who wins if they get lynched), I don't know why. Making a bunch of anti-town plays, declaring that you don't care if you get lynched or not, and mentioning that you post only for your own benefit is not the way to avoid getting lynched.

You say the strategy works for you in newbie games, but not in larger ones. So why continue to use a strategy that doesn't work? There is a wide latitude of strategies and playing styles permitted in these games, but Mafia is still is a group game, and not an individual competition. If you keep pulling this "I don't care if you lynch me or not" crap, nobody's going to want to play with you.

You say you like to approach the game by throwing out theories -- fine. Why don't you throw out some theories about who you think is scummy and why -- or is that too much to ask? I'd prefer reasoning and analysis, but at this point, if theorizing is your strong point, I'd prefer theories over "I don't care if you lynch me or not."

[Sudo_Nym]

It strikes me as simply dumb to think that you're posting for only for yourself.

I post for myself because I know how I think, and what looks good to me. If I knew what others look for (and I'm sure I'll learn), I would adjust to that. But for now, I have to go with what looks good to me.

This is a game, and the point of a game is to win. If you're playing a game well, you're playing it with the goal of winning. This "lynch me or don't lynch me, I don't give a darn" thing is utterly stupid.

Perhaps I miscommunicated my point. I play to win; I play the best way I know how. If I were playing a game by myself, then I might play just for fun. But this is a team game (whether townie or scum), so I owe it to my teammates (and my opponents) to play to win. Sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't. And I'm not a machine, either- sometimes I play a game and think "Damn, I played well." and sometimes it's "Damn, I sucked that round." As I gather experience, I'll shift more toward the former.

And being lynched doesn't bother me- it happens, and I don't take it personal. I don't want to get lynched, that's true. But ultimately, all townies win when the town wins, regardless of whether they're lynched; if I get lynched and give helpful information in the process that helps the town find scum, then that's a trade I'll take. Remember, the town has the numbers; an attrition strategy (if it could be worked out here) is a winning strategy for the town.

If you're just in this thread as an expose of your personal theoretical genius, go make a blog somewhere and post there. Don't mess up the game. I would like to win, and if you're a townie, I would prefer that you hop off your high horse and make yourself useful.

I actually really respect this. I'm not trying to muck up the game- believe it or not, that was my defense strategy. Most people I see defend themselves by explaining

what

they think, and even among the most experienced players on the site, that usually winds up in a shouting match, with both sides entrenched. I hoped that explaining

how

I think would be more effective.

And I never meant to put myself up or brag by saying I'm good at theory. I just meant that it's the approach that works best for me; sometimes, the lack of experience results in it being applied incorrectly. I don't mean to say that my approach is better than anyone else's, or that it makes me smarter, or anything. Just that it's what works for me.

[Sudo_Nym]

You say you like to approach the game by throwing out theories -- fine. Why don't you throw out some theories about who you think is scummy and why -- or is that too much to ask? I'd prefer reasoning and analysis, but at this point, if theorizing is your strong point, I'd prefer theories over "I don't care if you lynch me or not."

My theory about alignments? My leading candidate right now is you, actually, mainly due to the shift in your reaction to my opening idea. On the one hand, maybe you just changed your mind after Mexal made some good points against me. On the other, you could easily be a scum who sided with me when I looked strong, then shifted sides when the tide turned. This could go either way, however, which is why I withhold my vote for the time being.

Following you are those who've done some significant lurking. Usually, I discount this outside of newbie games, but with so many new players, I've decided to keep it. Often, newbie-scum lurk in the hopes that nobody will notice them and just let the town tear themselves apart.

On the town side, the only one I feel is strongly town is Mexal. True, he argued against me, but he matched his aggressive playstyle with solid logic, and I believe this is a strong townie tell. Of course, he could be a scum doing a good job, but this is WIFOM.

[Jitsu]

Who specificially do you classify in the group as having done significant lurking? I can make some likely guesses, but I'd rather not assume anything.

Other than general suspicion due to lurking, do you have any other theories/observations/comments on those who are currently in the spotlight(Anata112, GunslingerKB, Miztef)?

[Korlash]

Wow I am really going to kill myself if i keep putting this game on hold... Man I am not liking my hour long read up come tomorrow... But two things so I at least have input.

First, I find it strange how Anata went from no votes to three in three posts. With the third one basically saying "I agree with all that." (thats pretty much what I understood from the amen. I haven't actually read Jitsu's post yet so don't misunderstand me that I am trying to push this as an attack.) I just think it strange... Anyways I look forward to what you said about it... it must have one hell of a convincing post...

Secondly:

I love how people post that their votes are for pressure. For me, at least, saying that a vote is for pressure actually reduces the level of pressure on a person.

You are the first person I have ever heard that shares that opinion with me. I have made case after case about how a simple "pressure" vote means nothing overall. And every time I make that argument people hound me for it... I'm glad I am not the only one who at least semi-thinks that way. I was beginning to feel weird...

Well that is my input for today. I have the weekend off so I will have no excuse for not posting my sum up of things. Look forward to it =D

[Miztef]

I'm going on a trip this weekend, so I may not be able to post too much, but here's some quick thoughts right now.

About Anata: I haven't had time to read through the case against her, but I agree with Korlash that 3 votes in succession are mighty fast. That's something I definitely want to look into.

Sudo's latest posts helped me understand a bit of where he's coming from, and I think many of his scummy actions can be attributed to simple mistakes. I don't think he is scum at this time, but he isn't a particularly good townie if that's the case.


Btw Korlash, I also agree that, in the exact same post, saying your voting someone for pressure and voting them does deter the amount of pressure actually given substantially. However, in the very early game, it's just natural to start by semi-random voting to get things moving along.

[oEJo]

This is... blah. I am basically getting a town read from everyone. Well done, scum.

[Mexal]

This is... blah. I am basically getting a town read from everyone. Well done, scum.

Seriously? There isn't a single thing that is bothering you right now?

[curiouskarmadog]

This is... blah. I am basically getting a town read from everyone. Well done, scum.

umm, what?

[Abstract Actuary]

If a deadline were to hit immediately, the player highlited in red would be lynched. In that (false) VC, Korlash and Sudo_Nym were tied for the lead in votes, but Korlash had recieved his before Sudo_Nym.

Thanks for the explanation. Deadlines will never hit immediately, right. We'll always be given some sort of warning first?

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm also out of town this weekend, but there is a chance I'll have access to the internet.

At the moment, Miztef still tops my list. His latest post about the Anata112 triple vote reinforced my thoughts from earlier. I think the point he made was a very good one, I just also think that he is trying to distance himself from the strategy he was using earlier in the game since he started taking heat for it.

According to his earlier argument, that he is usually suspected of being scum in the first round when he is town, you have to believe that he doesn't really mind taking the heat, usually, and likes putting pressure on people. So if he was town again, I think he would just shrug it off like usual ("they always think I'm town the first day, no big deal"). The fact that he is trying hard to back off that strategy makes me suspicious.

[Anata112]

Wow...all of a sudden there are three votes for me. Just....wow.

The amazing thing that this occurs within three hours. Does anyone else find this interesting? Jitsu makes this long post that I don't think I need to summarize. This is followed by Mexal and Jerubbal who simply say something to the likes of "I agree".

In my posts, I have never defended anyone. Everyone is a suspect in my mind until I get more information. However, there are certain opinions that I agree/disagree with, and when that occurs, I voice my opinion. I never purposefully defended Gunslinger or Sudo_nym.

In my analysis, I was looking for voting patterns. This was also for future reference in later stages of the game.

Also in my analysis, I put up a few suspects, and Jitsu, you were one of them. You were the only one that mentioned about impeccable timing of my post and how clearly thought out it was. And now you say it's sloppy and a lazy analysis. So which one is it? And why did it take so long for you to bring up this attack on my post? It was pages ago and since you've been quite active in the forum, why didn't you say this earlier?

To me, it sounds like you didn't like me bringing you up as a suspect, and now you're trying to deflect the attention back to me. Does that mean my suspicions are correct?

Anyways, I'll be off for the weekend as well. I'll have a lot of posts to look forward to on Monday.

[jerubbaal]

I said I agree because,.... I agreed. I think Jitsu made a reasonably solid case about you and I think it would be to your benefit to read through his primary post against you and attempt to answer some of the questions put to you directly. The above post does not answer much.

I'll be out of town this weekend, (ATM, I'm in Chicago), but I might have time to post a little bit. I'm visiting the gf, so time is somewhat of a premium. Probably will give a more in-depth reading of the new stuff on Sunday night or Monday.

[Jitsu]

The amazing thing that this occurs within three hours. Does anyone else find this interesting? Jitsu makes this long post that I don't think I need to summarize. This is followed by Mexal and Jerubbal who simply say something to the likes of "I agree".

It's not really that amazing. If a case is convincing, the reasoning is sound, and the facts are presented clearly and without distortion, people will vote. Mexal and Jerubbaal can expand on their reasons for voting for you if they choose to, but if a strongly convincing post is made, it hardly needs a lot of commentary. I see Mexal and Jerubbaal as being the most pro-town at this point for their helpful insight, commentary that is helping encourage good town play, and pressure on those that look scummy. If Mexal and Jerubbaal say that the logic is good, it's probably because it is.

In my posts, I have never defended anyone. Everyone is a suspect in my mind until I get more information. However, there are certain opinions that I agree/disagree with, and when that occurs, I voice my opinion. I never purposefully defended Gunslinger or Sudo_nym.

Gunslinger and Sudo_Nym have definitely done some things that are very much anti-town, which I and others have called them on. You were quick to put suspicion on me based on flawed and misrepresented evidence (intentional or not). And yet, you've not even admitted you've done this even though I and others have presented clear evidence of that and questioned your logic. Yet, when Sudo and Gunslinger did things that are at least as scummy (if not more so), you didn't find it suspicious at all. Sudo and Gunslinger may or may not be scum, but they have definitely made some noticeable anti-town plays. Whether you purposefully defended them or not, I don't know. But at the very least, you've condoned or excused scummy behavior, which is scummy in itself.

In my analysis, I was looking for voting patterns. This was also for future reference in later stages of the game.

I have no complaints about your tracking of the voting sequences. I agree this was accurate. But you said you didn't understand the reason for the votes, when there were clearly spelled out in the posts and spawned pages of aggressive posts that were virtually impossible to miss, even if you were just skimming. I believe that all of the other players involved understood the reasons for the votes pretty easily. A recap of who voted for who is nice, but anybody can do that with little effort.

Also in my analysis, I put up a few suspects, and Jitsu, you were one of them. You were the only one that mentioned about impeccable timing of my post and how clearly thought out it was. And now you say it's sloppy and a lazy analysis. So which one is it? And why did it take so long for you to bring up this attack on my post? It was pages ago and since you've been quite active in the forum, why didn't you say this earlier?

I wasn't just one of the suspects, I was in the top two. As I said, on my initial read, I got a strong impression that you were trying to frame me. I focused mostly on the portions that talked about me on those initial comments. On the reread, I considered the entire post altogether, and that's when I began to see patterns in your "analysis" in seeing what you said about the others compared to me. I think you were trying to be careful about who you were saying bad things about, but you did a sloppy job of that. And the glaring omissions of any ot the important game events was either sloppy, or a careful exercise used to distort your anaylsis -- I don't know which it is, but both of them are scummy.

Why didn't I say all this earlier? The answer is quite simple. I knew I needed to reread your post, particularly after Mexal's comments in post 183. I thought you were clearly trying to frame me, but he just said your analysis didn't say much -- so something didn't fit. I knew I wanted to read it more carefully later, and so I put it in the back of my mind, because Sudo committed his gaffe of commenting on whether Mexal has a power role or not before I could respond to your post. I called Sudo on that, and I was following up that lead when the opportunity was there.

Even during that process

, I mentioned in post 200 that I wanted to reread your post and hadn't forgotten. When the lead on Sudo was dry, I finally did my read on your post again and presented my analysis. It never left my mind.

To me, it sounds like you didn't like me bringing you up as a suspect, and now you're trying to deflect the attention back to me. Does that mean my suspicions are correct?

Plenty of other people have commented that I looked like a suspect, and I didn't have a problem any of them when they brought it up. Why? Because in all of those cases, the reasoning was sound and based on fact, or they were gut feelings formed around the logical fallacies or other mistakes I made. Sudo has me as his chief suspect at this point, and even I can admit that at least his theory is based on something that actually happened. Your suspicion on me stands out because it used evidence that was misrepresented, irrelevant, and in some cases, not even there.

Given how you don't seem to be addressing any of the relevant points I made about your analysis (other than denying that you defended Sudo and Gunslinger), I think that you are trying to make a desparate attempt to deflect the attention back on

me

, without having anything very substantive to say. In this post and in #242, I have logically debated your points, and your response has been to point fingers at things that really aren't very relevant.

Do you have anything else to say about the points I made? Because I can't see anything resembling a defense here. I'm happy with my vote on you right now.

[Korlash]

Wow... my brain hurts... and why are my eyes bleeding?

Ok I had like three or so quotes lined up but have already forgotten them so i guess they were not that important... That just shows how not playing the game firsthand sucks and I hate work... grrr...

Let me see... Anata seems to be in the current spotlight... which I find funny because of how people originally said her post lacked anything real and was all a summary and I do not see how that can say anything about a person's affiliation all. But for the little bit she has been posting I like the idea of people pushing for more from her. Granted some better reasons may help like say... from Mexal. I mean WTF man... For like two full pages (of my reread) I was in total agreement of how pro-town you looked and I agreed you had a sort of... kinda ICish feel to you. Then you go and more or less join a bandwagon on the basis "what he said"... I would have expected at least something from you... Your vote just doesn't sit right with me...

I see Mexal and Jerubbaal as being the most pro-town at this point for their helpful insight, commentary that is helping encourage good town play, and pressure on those that look scummy.

Kinda pointless to say you think the people on your side are most pro town. It could very well be converted into a sort of "Buddying up" thing... I'm not pushing it, just my advice on things...

another thing:

when there were clearly spelled out in the posts and spawned pages of aggressive posts that were virtually impossible to miss,

Nothing is ever "clearly spelled out" in mafia. I mean with all the suspicion, paranoia, stupidity, and newbiness floating around nothing will always seem the same to everyone. Take the massclaim thing. Sudo clearly spelled out that he felt it to be a bad idea but being asked here it was... Yet a few people took that as some kind of scum trap for power roles or whatever. And this is basically what mafia boils down to, who can explain their point in such a way as to make people understand it the best they can.

So, how about, instead of telling her how obvious they are, you explain it to her so that she does understand them. You cannot criticize people for not understanding something unless you have tried to explain it to them.

Right now I would like a bit more from Mexal on his reasons for voting Anata. Even quoting main points from jitsu would be a start...

I want a lot more form anata as well. Maybe a list of people you think is most likely scum and why. Maybe answering a few of the questions posed at you wouldn't be bad.

Right now I need sleep. I have all weekend off (just my luck all you guys leave when I get off... jerks...) So I will be hoping back into the discussion. Again I apologize on my absence as it clearly keeps me from keeping up with you guys and posting things of real use.

[Mexal]

Let me see... Anata seems to be in the current spotlight... which I find funny because of how people originally said her post lacked anything real and was all a summary and I do not see how that can say anything about a person's affiliation all. But for the little bit she has been posting I like the idea of people pushing for more from her. Granted some better reasons may help like say... from Mexal. I mean WTF man... For like two full pages (of my reread) I was in total agreement of how pro-town you looked and I agreed you had a sort of... kinda ICish feel to you. Then you go and more or less join a bandwagon on the basis "what he said"... I would have expected at least something from you... Your vote just doesn't sit right with me...

I'm not one to rehash what other people say just to make myself look like I'm contributing. The fact of the matter is, I agreed with what Jitsu said. I didn't think it was necessary for me to add anything to it.

[NabakovNabakov]

Thanks for the explanation. Deadlines will never hit immediately, right. We'll always be given some sort of warning first?

All deadlines will be announced well in advance. The red text is purely theoretical and is more just to quickly identify the player most in danger of being lynched.

[Korlash]

Well I just think someone who makes such good points cannot put a small bit of input in himself to solidify his own vote... I mean "I agree with that they said" is so vague and unhelpful it is more or less worthless... And then you basically come back and say you didn't want to "rehash what other people say." All I asked was you at least pointed out what he said that you agreed with. Thats all. Maybe a reason why you agree would be nice. Otherwise I just take it as vote hopping...

[Mexal]

Well I just think someone who makes such good points cannot put a small bit of input in himself to solidify his own vote... I mean "I agree with that they said" is so vague and unhelpful it is more or less worthless... And then you basically come back and say you didn't want to "rehash what other people say." All I asked was you at least pointed out what he said that you agreed with. Thats all. Maybe a reason why you agree would be nice. Otherwise I just take it as vote hopping...

You can take it anyway you want. As I said, I agree with his post...ALL points. If there was something I didn't agree with, I would have pointed it out. As you said, I make good points so if I felt there was something to comment on, I would have. I was waiting for Anata's response to all the points made before I truly commented on it all and when she came back, she didn't really touch on any of them. So my vote still stands and I don't think I need to rehash what Jitsu said just so you can feel like my vote is justified. I said I agree and that should be enough right now.

[Korlash]

I just kinda figured the type of player you are you would have had some input yourself.

But it doesn't really matter one way or another seeing as how she hasn't addressed a lot of the points at all. So whether you had input or not it probably would not have been answered at all...

I have some things I have to get to tonight but I plan on being back and posting something detailed later.

[jerubbaal]

I am slightly confused why you have such a hard time with Mexal's vote but not with mine. Any reason in particular?