Mini 517: Tree Stump Mafia: Game Over

[SilverPhoenix]

Why do they (and Bapa Bail) agree with him, and then avoid any real discussion? Is there something I'm missing? Or is this really that easy?
FoS: JDodge, Bapa Bail, Scotmany
Time to start playing seriously, guys.

That was my case, which I have mentioned several times. I guess you didn't read it...

Because he was refusing to explain his neutrality at that point, I wasn't sure whether to believe him. So yes, the idea of scum trying to hide himself seemed appropriate at the time. However, you first criticize me for voting him solely for his neutrality, but now you are criticizing me for saying he was scummy. Which is it, scot? Or is it just a long string of dirt that you are trying to wring up on me? I cannot be sure why you want to directly attack me, but not others that were involved in the wagon WHICH YOU HAVE NEVER MENTIONED. Explain their behavior. Are they all scum? Also, as my quote above says, you nor JDodge have yet to say why you obediently agreed to his initial plan.

[scotmany12]

Yes it is a poor basis for a lynch, but Silver was trying to defend it by saying that he found him scummy before he heard his reasoning, when in reality, he could not find him scummy if he believed that quag did not look at his role.

[scotmany12]

Because you looked opportunistic to me silver. You didn't provide any reasoning of you own, but of others. And both of those that you mention make you scummy. First you want to lynch someone basely on the fact that they "aren't playing the game"(in your words). Then when I bring it up against you, you say you found him scummy. Too bad you already admitted to believing quag. Then you try to say that me and jdodge are scum for defending him. If quag ever turns up scum, then you have a case, but until then, you really don't.

Has it ever occurred that the adele thing was pre-determined?(I cannot speak for Bapa Bail though).

[SilverPhoenix]

Opportunistic is hardly the word. He was L-4 not -1 or -2. I also think that two people could have the same argument for the whole Quag-not-explaining-his-neutrality thing. And I was simply more annoyed by his lack of explanation than anything else.

Then when I bring it up against you, you say you found him scummy.

Too bad you already admitted to believing quag.

As I said, both can coincide. I didn't say he was acting scummy. I said that your actions and JDodge's were scummy because they seemed to defend him. Since he didn't know his role, if he was scum, the other scum would have wanted to try and not get him lynched before he looked at his role. That makes Quag only scum by association, not by action. Which is what I meant by my vote.
I also have a very large problem with the bolded sentence. You are now

deliberately

bending my words to your will. "Too bad"??? You act like the jury is coming through the front door with the verdict. And you want everyone to believe that too. That is what this argument (and my argument before with JDodge) is about. You wanting to control the town's outlook on me.

Vote: scotmany12

Has it ever occurred that the adele thing was pre-determined?

Look, you guys seemed to obviously have some prior discussion before this game started about who to target, since Quagmire told you and scotmany to vote for Adele and you guys did obediently. And now you are defending someone whose alignment you don't even know? That seems like scum trying to shut up a dumb-ass scum partner to me.

I have already asked why this is predetermined. I need more than "it was predetermined". BTW, scum could have a predetermined target. Just a thought.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Bapa.

Why do you think we should look at other people?

[Adele]

Don't have time for a long one here; I agree it might be worth looking around, but, while I'm grateful that Quag explained himself, I'm still suspicious of him. Here's my response to his pro-not-checking-explain post:

Okay. I'll buy that someone might genuinely feel that not knowing their role for D1 ultimately benefits their side. They might, they might not.

The only person here, though, who knows whether you're telling the truth about all this is you. I can't treat it as game-relevant information when there's no verifiability to it.

Not checking your role pm = maybe
Expecting others' attitudes towards your play to change because of it = no

Voting you

because

you said you didn't check your role pm = meh
Voting you in spite of your claim of not checking your role pm = yeah

I'm suspicious of you for other stuff besides the not-checking-role...ness:
1. Early random bandwagon encouragement
2. Refusing to treestump over getting lynched
3. Not answering questions straight (and, if your counterargument to something is wifomable, then that does reflect on the quality of the counterargument)
4. Appearing to expect a free pass due to not checking role.
5. If I'm stringently honest, the insulting of me

may

have further influenced it. At least, I always try to stay concious when I'm frustrated with someone how much that colours my suspicion of them.


At the end of the day, you are expecting people to treat you differently because of a factor that cannot be tested or verified. Why would I do that?

[Adele]

oh, and <3 quag for catching the kant ref

[Thok]

Vote Count

Quagmire (3): (d3sisted, PookyTheMagicalBear, Mastermind of Sin)
SilverPhoenix (2): (JDodge, scotmany12)
Adele (1): (Quagmire)
Korlash (1): (Korlash)
JDodge (1): (Bapa Bail)
scotmany12 (1): (SilverPhoenix)
d3sisted (0):
Aimee (0):
Bapa Bail (0):
Mastermind of Sin (0):
Max (0):
PookyTheMagicalBear (0):

Not voting (3): (Aimee, Max, Adele)

Bapa Bail is being replaced, effective as soon as I can find somebody. He knows why.

[Thok]

Mith replaces Bapa Bail.

[mith]

/confirm,

Unvote

I'll catch up tomorrow.

[mith]

Quick, really obvious thought: Quagmire needs to die.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing mods just modkill/replace players if they don't open their role PMs. I hate this trend of not looking. But anyway.

On one hand, we can probably do better than what amounts to a random lynch (well, slightly better than random, since there's some non-zero chance he's looked at his PM and is scum). Moreso in this game than others, because if we go another direction, we're going to either have a scum lynched or a stumping (which is obviously strictly better than lynching a townie). On the other hand, if he's going to act like this, I'd rather get him out of the way now if we're going to kill him at all, and the 27% chance of him being scum is far too high for me to consider just ignoring him all game and hoping he's innocent.

Anyway. Leaning toward voting him, in spite of the fact that I hate jumping on day 1 bandwagons. Will give all the other players a read later today.

[d3sisted]

Why haven't we lynched Quagmire yet?
I thought we had established quite clearly that anyone refusing to be stumped is to be considered scum. Plus, I'm not buying his "blind playing" act one bit. It looks to me like he's trying to find himself a convenient excuse to dodge all of the questions directed at him by turning this into a paradox. It gives him a reason to "be" town, even if he is actually scum.

[mith]

I'm just waiting until I've read through the game. I got sick, and so it's hard to read new stuff right now. But I'll get on it when I can. And then I'll probably vote for Quagmire.

[Quagmire]

I don't necessarily understand why I'm being lynched because I won't check my role PM. I mean, I'll definitely figure out what I am tonight no matter what happens, so isn't wasting a lynch on me a stupid idea and a play on random chance?

[mith]

Look at it this way, Quag.

From an innocent's point of view, it is better to stump than to allow the town to lynch you, correct?

There's a 75% (from your POV) chance you are town. Thus, you should play as though you are a town.

Therefore, when we get close to lynching you, you should stump if you really haven't looked at your role.

So, we're not wasting a *lynch* on you. Unless you are going to refuse to stump in the face of that AMAZING, IRREFUTABLE LOGIC. And if you do, it's your own damn fault.

Vote: Quagmire

. Screw waiting, I'm already tired of this nonsense.

[Max]

Stump

I need not explain.

Opening Role = Good
Not Opening Role = Semi-Good
Pretending Not to open role = bad

If you have not opened your PM you would have been replaced as that is not playing the game therefore you are lying. Stump Or My vote is on you

[Quagmire]

Look at it this way, Quag.

From an innocent's point of view, it is better to stump than to allow the town to lynch you, correct?

There's a 75% (from your POV) chance you are town. Thus, you should play as though you are a town.

Therefore, when we get close to lynching you, you should stump if you really haven't looked at your role.

So, we're not wasting a *lynch* on you. Unless you are going to refuse to stump in the face of that AMAZING, IRREFUTABLE LOGIC. And if you do, it's your own damn fault.

Vote: Quagmire

. Screw waiting, I'm already tired of this nonsense.

but i could be mafia, and i'm not going to tear away from that possibility right now. Here's the way I see it:

I will know what I am tomorrow. That means that I'll actually know my role, which will mean that I won't be playing blind. I'll be a townsperson/mafioso just like everyone else.

Which means that if you lynched me today, you'd pretty much be waisting a lynch when you could more effectively find surer scum today by bandwagoning certain people until they're lynched or they stump.

Do you understand what I'm saying here?

[Quagmire]

Stump

I need not explain.

Opening Role = Good
Not Opening Role = Semi-Good
Pretending Not to open role = bad

If you have not opened your PM you would have been replaced as that is not playing the game therefore you are lying. Stump Or My vote is on you

why should i be replaced if i don't know my role pm? i'm a contributing, active poster in this game...i just don't know what i am.

[Max]

If you haven't opened your role you shouldn't have confirmed you are confirming you know your role

[Quagmire]

If you haven't opened your role you shouldn't have confirmed you are confirming you know your role

i confirmed that i've received my role, it's just sitting unopened in my inbox

[Max]

Vote: Quagmire

Stump please You know why.

[mith]

Quag, I understand that you are saying you haven't opened your role. And I understand that until you do so, I will be pushing for your lynch. And I understand that you getting lynched, or being forced to stump, will hurt whichever team you happen to be on.

I believe that's five.

[SilverPhoenix]

I have already asked why the adele thing is predetermined. I need more than "it was predetermined". BTW, scum could have a predetermined target. Just a thought.

Bumping this question towards Quag, JDodge and scotmany12....

[Quagmire]

Quag, I understand that you are saying you haven't opened your role. And I understand that until you do so, I will be pushing for your lynch. And I understand that you getting lynched, or being forced to stump, will hurt whichever team you happen to be on.

I believe that's five.

mith, what i'm saying is that you should *at the very least* wait until tomorrow, where you guys won't hurt yourselves in lynching me. essentially, what you're doing here is policy lynching me, and it's not going to benefit the town until i've become a "normal" player.

silverphoenix: i figured that i'd vote for adele before the game started because she tried to argue against the theory of gravity, and there's not going to be any better information for me to pursue on day one.

[Adele]

Quag, I understand that you are saying you haven't opened your role. And I understand that until you do so, I will be pushing for your lynch. And I understand that you getting lynched, or being forced to stump, will hurt whichever team you happen to be on.

I believe that's five.

mith, what i'm saying is that you should *at the very least* wait until tomorrow, where you guys won't hurt yourselves in lynching me. essentially, what you're doing here is policy lynching me, and it's not going to benefit the town until i've become a "normal" player.

Why don't you just check your role pm now then? Seems hypocritical to me. Anyone who asks for a free pass is a worthwhile target to me.

silverphoenix: i figured that i'd vote for adele before the game started because she tried to argue against the theory of gravity, and there's not going to be any better information for me to pursue on day one.

which

theory? FFS...