Mini #516: Canyon City - Abandoned

[Phate]

randomvote: theopor_COD

[Phate]

FoS: Primate

The NPC thing makes me wonder. I judge scum by their posts and by their votes. If the NPCs neither post nor vote... how are we supposed to figure out their alignments?

Mod, could you give us a quick summary of what the NPCs will and will not do? IE post, vote, etc. Perhaps every page or so you could list what the NPCs think of current players and events, or briefly summarise their opinion, or evs.

[Phate]

Ah, well. Worth a shot.

Theopor - everyone knows running a game with NPCs is a major scumtell.

[Phate]

So... yeah. How 'bout them Tigers?

I'm going to echo what everyone else is saying and vote NO on the Day 1 killing of NPCs. My intuition tells me that there aren't going to be (m)any Mafia NPCs, because they would have to vote with the Mafia and I don't think that's Primate's style. I also opine that there is at LEAST one unaligned NPC, and (s)he/they might very well fill the SK role.

Regarding lynches, also echoing other people, I'd say PC>NPC>random>none.

Groinhammer, what is WRT?

So... yeah. I vote all the scum claim right now.

[Phate]

So, now that we're all agreed on that, let's turn to the lighter business of choosing one among us to brutally murder.

=]

Bump.

[Phate]

*grins, unconcerned*

So the evidence so far is that I don't like inactivity and I make lame jokes. If those are scumtells, I'm going to be lynched every game.

Yagami, IGMEOY. I'm in another game with Shanba (where she's definitely town, IMO) and I'm harping at everyone to post there, too. So I can see her getting fed up. And groinhammer's vote was a random one that he chose to let stand. Those I can accept, even if I don't agree with them.

But my joke "So... yeah. I vote all the scum claim right now" and my other one "So, now that we're all agreed on that, let's turn to the lighter business of choosing one among us to brutally murder." (I believe both are complete with a smiley, too) are admittedly lame, but implying that they're scummy?

If I was scum, what possible benefit would I have by making a joke about the scum claiming or by humourously (to me, anyway) trying to spur activity? It seems to me that you're just looking for a wagon to jump onto.

[Phate]

Those are scum jokeclaiming, not making jokes. Large difference there. I think I'll go look at the first three pages of three random games and tally the joking scum to joking town ratio.

[Phate]

...

Did you actually read the post (58)? Go back up and read the second paragraph, where I explain why I'm not (as) suspicious of them and explain why. Then read the third paragraph, where I explain that I AM suspicious of you, because of the (given) REASON for your voting.

Also, Shanba, I'm'a give you some links.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6027 - Friends and Enemies
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6468 - Newbie 495
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6561 - Triumvirate Mafia

Friends and Enemies is an open game with 3 Masons, 3 Mafia, and 6 townies. I joke a lot there, but when I see something serious, I discuss it seriously (although I may throw a joke or two in parentheses)

Newbie 495 is, obviously, a newbie game. I behave similarly there, although after reading games where action is spurred by a particularly abrasive player, I have decided to try and conduct myself there in a much more profane manner, to test the results. And yet, aside from my self-imposed posting restriction, the formula is the same: a unique mix of lame jokes and analysis.

Triumvirate Mafia - Here, I

Oh, shit. Gots to go. Will finish this later.

[Phate]

I sincerely apologise for linking to current games; I was completely unaware of this rule, probably because of a large oversight on my part. I'll respond to the rest as soon as I get home.

[Phate]

I actually don't think of that being to scum like-I don't like it, but it's still early enough in the game that I don't think it's that big of a deal.....however, if he keeps it up, i don't know.....

This post is unclear. Keeps what up? Mentioning current games? Harping at people to post? Joking?

You would be trying too hard to fit in and make jokes, like you're acting relaxed. It does look like you are trying to appear townie right now.

"You're acting too much like town, so you must be scum." Ladies and gents, it doesn't get much more WIFOM than this. Have you considered the possibility that I AM town, with a propensity for relaxed jokes?

Also, that you were criticizing others for lack of content without going after scum first bothers me. You're showing now that you'll post a lot to defend yourself, but you haven't done anything to look for scum. I think being so self-centered and unhelpful is a decent scum tell.

Hold up, there, tiger. Let's briefly summarize the accusations.

1. I'm criticising others for lack of content.
2. I'm doing so without going after scum first.
3. I'm willing to post a lot to defend myself.
4. I'm not willing to do anything to look for scum.
5. I'm being self-centered.
6. I'm being unhelpful.
7. The above add up to a decent scumtell.

*looks up, whistles* Lucky seven, huh? Let's go quote the actual post that started this whole mess, and see how they match up point-for-point.

So, now that we're all agreed on that, let's turn to the lighter business of choosing one among us to brutally murder.

=]

Bump.

1. There is no criticism of anyone for anything, much less criticising an anonymous plural "others" for "lack of content." I'm attempting to move from our fairly mutual agreement of the matter of the NPCs to the finding of scum.

2. If you read, the entire point of the post was to revitalise the search for scum. This one's a real stretch.

3. Ummm... yeah. Gonna have to agree on this one. I will post to defend myself from the moment I am accused to to the moment before my lynch, should it come to that. Deal with it.

4. See #2.

5. You're building on a foundation that doesn't exist. What about that post was self-centered?

6. Au contraire. No matter what happens from this point forward, we (or the rest of you, as the case may be) will be able to look back at this page and decide who was genuinely suspicious and who was just trying to get a townie lynched. Considering that all we've done so far is agree a lot about the NPCs, I'd say I've been the most helpful person so far this game.

7. I'm not nearly as experienced as some of you, but I really don't consider my behaviour scummy. Let's see: the main accusations are that I'm trying too hard to act town (which I've addressed) and that I'm trying to spur activity while not actually contributing.

Of those, only the second has merit. It's true; I have been trying to spur activity and my posts to try to accomplish that goal have been otherwise useless (although you have to admit, it HAS spurred activity =P). I apologise for the otherwise-uselessness of the post, but you know what? I don't really regret anything I've said so far (scratch that. I DO regret linking to current games. Other than that, nothing.)

[Phate]

I meant if you keep on joking AND talking about other games....either or....I don't expect the latter to continue, however, so mostly the former....

The former is a nulltell and the latter is a noobtell. I'm not going to talk about other games - I didn't know it was against the rules, and now that I do I won't.

As for joking, if you're suggesting you lynch me if I keep joking, I'll gladly be the D1 lynch - I'm going to keep joking, because I play Mafia because it is enjoyable for me. Stupid restrictions like not being able to make lame jokes take away the enjoyment for me.

[Phate]

It is not much of a leap from that to say you are criticizing others for not going after scum enough.

Yes, it is. A suggestion to do something =\= a criticism for not having already done it. That simultaneously skews perceptions of the actual message and of my intent. As well imply that your attack of me means that you are completely convinced that I am scum - it might not LOOK like like a huge leap, but when you think about the implications of the difference between positions, it is.

Besides, I can spell. =P

No. You are completely missing the point. I can sit back all game and tell people to find scum, that's lazy and unhelpful. You are doing NOTHING YOURSELF to actually find scum. You aren't voting for people here, you aren't attacking anybody. It's the very definition of medium-sized.

No one was posting. Now they are. I had no idea who was scum. Now I have suspicions. The town had nothing to discuss; now they do. In the event that town decides I'm scum, they can look back and see who was curiously reluctant to jump onto the wagon. In the event that town decides I'm town, we can look back and see who was all too eager to jump onto the wagon.

Also, what do you mean by medium-sized?

Again, you miss the point. Obviously people have to defend themselves when they are being attacked. My point was that you are defending yourself really hard without doing anything else. Like, I don't know why you can't be attacking somebody that hard. I can't decide if you misunderstood me or this is a staw-man.

When I see an Italian guy with a fedora and trenchcoat, I'll point him out. [In unrelated news, I am Italian and wear a fedora and a black leather jacket]

Seriously, though, I haven't been attacking scum because my opinions on who is scum are still taking shape. And personally, I'd rather deal with the arguments presented against me first, and then, once they're dispatched, move on to cross-examining proponents of faulty logic, than attempt to defend myself while simultaneously doing my best to cast suspicion on someone else. That's probably an overdramatization of your position, but you catch my drift.

Who do you think is scum? Top 3, and why.

I've been thinking about that. I'm not really getting a scumvibe from you [Spambot] or Shanba, but Yagami gets a beard-stroke because I'm entertaining the possibility that he's jumping on two relatively innocent posts just to see a townie lynched, and Kabenon gets a WtFoS for blatantly strawmanning my position (I'll respond to that in a moment, btw).

How about you?

When did I ever say I was only referring to one particular post? Another possible straw-man. If you're still curious, the reason you're being "self-centered" is my earlier point that you aren't actively hunting for scum at all.

*nonplussed* I thought this whole thing was about my bump post. I responded to the "not hunting for scum" bit in points 2 and 3.

Acting scummy and getting attacked for it =\= helpful.

Of course it is. It gives the town a chance to analyse the reactions of the other players. Since I've already explained this and you've reverted to your original implication without bothering to enlighten me with the reason for my explanation's invalidity, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to respond to these questions in detail.

Meh.

That was helpful, alright.




On to Kabenon. If you truly don't understand this, then I have further confirmed my favour of abortion in cases of incest.

Let's look at the VERY POSTS YOU'RE QUOTING (out of context). The very first one begins with "Of those" - that might possibly suggest that I was referring to something I have just said. In fact, here is the sentence right before it:

Let's see: the main accusations are that I'm trying too hard to act town (which I've addressed) and that I'm trying to spur activity while not actually contributing.

Try reading the whole post instead of just scouring it for shortcuts and straw men.

[Phate]

Ok, I'm confused. When you made that post, you clearly didn't think that people were attacking scum enough, otherwise your post would be pointless, no? You suggested that people start hunting for scum, implying that they weren't and also implying that you thought they should be. Do you disagree with this?

Yes, to all of the above. My issue is with the in-this-case loaded word criticism.

Ok then, I am going to act ridiculously scummy, but don't lynch me because I'm just trying to generate discussion. Here is my interpretation of what happened.

You: Let's start hunting for scum, guys.
Me: You first.
Others: You are scum.
You: I am defending myself really hard.
Me: If you wanted to start hunting scum, why aren't you doing so?
You: I was just trying to generate discussion. Success!

I think you are trying to look helpful without actually being so.

Perhaps I'm being unclear. I didn't make an unhelpful post in order to provoke a helpful response (although now that I see the results, I would consider it a valid strategy) - I didn't have the foresight to do that. I made a post to try to close the coffin on the NPC discussion, which we were all pretty much agreed on, and move on. As it happened, the response happened to be (IMO) helpful. Again, I consider this response and the possible analysis thereof helpful. If you don't, your loss.

See, when you tell me that you are suspicious of these two people, but don't even mention the guy you're voting for, that makes me more convinced that you're scum.

*blinks*

...

Oh. I've still got my first-post randomvote on.

Unvote: theo. Vote: Yagami.

Lol. If forgetting to unvote a random vote I made on my first post isn't scummy, I don't know what is.

My top three would probably go you, GroinHammer, then anybody not voting right now. The only person I've played with in this game before is Kabenon, so I'm trying to get a feel for everybody else.

Really? Groinhammer? I wasn't getting much of a scumvibe from him. I'll have to go reread him. What about him do you think is scummy?

Holy crap, no. Acting scummy isn't a good way to generate discussion. All it does is get you mislynched (if town). Also, are you admitting that you were acting scummy?

Nope, I'm not. I'm not terribly worried. I don't think the evidence against me is strong enough for a lynch, and I don't think my defense is suitably weak enough to overcome that fact. But it HAS generated discussion, and I don't think it will result in a lynch.

...or at least, not mine. >=P

I didn't strongly disagree with any of that part. Also, nice ad hom attack.

Well, if you didn't strongly disagree, did you disagree at all? Why? Or did you agree? Then why not say so, even if it's as half-hearted as your "I can kind buy this, even if it's a poor play" spiel? Or are you undecided? Well, then, say so. Just about anything more articulate than "meh" would be more helpful.

Also, how is this ad hominem? Calling your one-word response unhelpful isn't ad hominem any more than your calling my post unhelpful. Ad hominem is a logical fallacy involving substituting a personal attack on the other person for a response to the issue. That was neither a personal attack, nor was there anything to respond to.

Which was why it was unhelpful.

[Phate]

Well, Phate once again goes at it with his comedic routine, appealing to our emotion of humor... noted. Also, I see what you are saying now. I misread your "the second is the only one of merit" as in reference to your #2 accusation. So I was misunderstanding, not strawmanning. And there is no need to bring incest into this. If you are going to use humor, at least make it tasteful.

No, I don't believe my response was so much an "appeal to emotion" as stinging sarcasm, perhaps even a verbal slap in the face. I answered your question. I was abrasive because 1) it was a stupid question, and 2) the whole post reeked of snide superiority and I'm always happy to take people down a notch when they speak to me that way. Also, I'm not terribly interested in what you consider tasteful.

Also, your attempt to label my post as appeal to emotion is both clearly untrue and a possible scumtell, when you consider the circumstances (you're the latest member of a public that is pressuring me, this is your second unfounded pseudo-accusation, this is your first serious post, etc). If I could vote two people at once, I would. Consider yourself voted for.

But since I can't, I'll just upgrade you to a

WtFos: Kabenon.

Oh, yeah. Spambot, what does "medium-sized" mean, in context?

[Phate]

Ah, but the new one's bold. *eyebrow waggle*

Since I'm the one defending myself from you, and since you've stated that you're highly voting, I should be asking YOU: Got anything new to add? Or do you not need a reason to vote, a la Chuck Norris?

[Phate]

EBWOP: highly voting = highly considering voting.

[Phate]

I'm not saying that the fact that it was your first serious post is scummy. I'm saying, that fact in combination with the other circumstances I mentioned is what makes your accusation a possible scumtell.

So for your what about, question, all I can respond is: they suck, and should go die in a war. Or post. Whichever comes first.

[Phate]

*exasperated*

Nope. That one's really reaching. If I had just made a post that said, "Kabenon should post," you might be able to pull that one off (...maybe). But I used it as one of several exhibits of evidence for a point. That's hardly calling you out to the exclusion of anyone else.

[Phate]

Groinhammer: If that's the case, what is your vote still doing here?

Shanba, please clarify and your opinion of my status.

Spambot, has your opinion changed? If so, do any accusations jumped out at you as being unwarranted? If not, please respond to 80. Also, what leads you to think groinhammer is scum?

[Phate]

ebwop - "clarify and explain your opinion"

[Phate]

Kabenon, your defense sucks. Like, seriously. As in almost every word you say rhymes with um (dumb or scum, take your pick.)

But at the same time, I don't think the case on you is warranted. And Spambot has gone from "OMFGphatescumlynchplzkthxbai" (with faulty reasoning that I finished tearing apart in post 80 - then I asked Spambot to respond to that, and he singled out one thing and pretty much said "I still think you're scum" without adequately explaining why or responding to any of my other reasoning... anyway) to "OMFGkabenonscumlynchplzkthxbai" as soon as he ran out of gas with me.

Spambot, I think it's fairly likely you're scum. Who am I voting for? Am I already voting for you? I don't know.

Unvote; Vote: Spambot

[Phate]

Again, what the hell? You think he is scum, but don't want scum to hammer him? Fine, being this wishy-washy is almost as bad as anything he's done, so you've gotten my attention.

Unvote, Vote: Kabenon

This post is laughable, especially considering his entire case against me so far includes prompting others to post helpfully without doing so myself and forgetting to take off my random vote.

[Phate]

DragonsOfSummer!!! How dare you post and try to get us to contribute without doing so yourself??? How can you criticise other people when you're not helping yourself?!? You're just trying to make yourself appear helpful, aren't you!?! OMFGDOSSCUM.



lol. Nice analysis. I still think Spambot has some 'splaining to do, but after a reread of the last few pages with your analysis in mind, kabenon looks scummier.

unvote; vote kabenon007

[Phate]

I know, Shanba, I'm joking.

[Phate]

Nope. I was joking. No further meaning need be attached. If I had a point, I would say so.

[Phate]

SomeStrangeFlea!!! How dare you post and try to get us to contribute without doing so yourself??? How can you criticise other people when you're not helping yourself?!? You're just trying to make yourself appear helpful, aren't you!?! OMFGSSFSCUM.

If you had read my post, Kabenon, you'd know my "flip-flop" was actually based on a reread with DoS' analysis in mind, which I stated in my in my post. As opposed to you who have held the same view and stuck to your guns regardless of annoying things like evidence. Kind of like Bush.

I think Spambot is scummy because he vigorously went after me, and then made a very fast, very sharp change of direction with minimal evidence. I think you're scummy because you've been headed in the very same direction for a long time with minimal evidence. I think at least one of you are scum. Perhaps kab/span/yag, I could see that.

And here I am at L-2, where you said that scum could easily slide onto the wagon... but I don't think they will, 'cuz I think some of them are already there. For the record, however, I'm a town powerrole - just thought you should know.

Mod: Can the Mafia target NPCs for a night kill?

[Phate]

*shrugs* I'm new to being a powerrole. Didn't want to wait to get to L-1 and be scumhammered. If I get to L-1, I'll mention what it is.

[Phate]

*grins*

You're ridiculous, kabenon.

I'm going to respond to this, but first I'd like to ask the rest of the town: is this last post by Kabenon as far-fetched-sounding to you guys as it is to me?

[Phate]

No, actually, I ask because if you're scum (and I think you very well may be), any defense to you is meaningless. Any defense is merely to the rest of the town. So unless the rest of the town actually thinks there's a valid argument somewhere in there, I don't see any reason to bother with responding.

But, because I'm bored and have no life, I'm working on a response.

[Phate]

My reasoning for voting phate at this moment is mainly because of his odd switch from spambot to me. It seems very opportunistic, after spambot votes for me, then DoS confirms his vote, and THEN phate swoops in and switches from his "likely scum" in spambot to me.

I've explained this. I think both of you are scummy, Spambot for strongly pushing my case with minimal evidence and then rapidly switching to pushing your case with minimal evidence, and you for sticking to my case with minimal evidence and laughable posts. In lieu of anyone else, I would support either of your lynches D1 (although I doubt I'll make it through the night, now that I've claimed).

I have never in my life jokeclaimed. I am actually, in meatspace, Italian, and I wear a fedora (but not a trenchcoat). I thought this was amusing in the context of playing Mafia, so I mentioned it. At any rate, joking is a playstyle choice for me and I don't plan to quit anytime soon.

What? Where did you get the idea that his opinion was changing? His last post made no reference to a possible opinion change. And then, lo and behold, a few posts later, Spambot switches from attacking phate to attacking me. I could possibly see this as scum buddy communication, a slip up on phate’s part.

Ooh, that's good. I have to applaud you for this one, Kabenon, I think that's the best argument you've come up with so far this game. Not only did I miss that interaction, I missed that argument in your post on the first reading of it.

I asked if his opinion had changed because he'd been silent for awhile and I'd thoroughly responded to his arguments... and therein lies the rub. He was on me. If I was his scumbuddy dropping a covert hint to change wagons, that'd be one thing, but if he was distancing from me, I wouldn't have to tell him.

Kabenon, you have, what, two votes on you? I'd hardly call that a wagon, and IMO it's too early to worry about what the town should do if you end up dead. Someone's feeling fatalistic today.

It is possible that I claimed too early. Again, new to being a powerrole.

[Phate]

Perhaps I should repeat myself slower.

If you're scum and accusing me, then you already know I'm town. If you're scum and accusing me, responding to your accusations is meaningless. If you're scum and accusing me and I respond, it's only to satisfy the rest of the town town, because they're the only ones who don't know whether I'm scum or town.

[Phate]

you said that you wouldn't post a response until you made sure the town would be behind it.

That isn't AT ALL what I said. I said and maintain that I think you're scum, so any defense to you is meaningless except for the benefit of the town. So if the rest of the town recognises how baseless an attack is, responding is unnecessary.

Here, for you, slower... If you're town, you should give the town as much information of your own as possible... If you are town, post and then ask if people agree, that way you can say that the opinion is your own and not just going along with the majority. If you're town... it doesn't matter... cuz you're not.

Unless you or someone else can point out something in here worth responding to, I'm going to yawn my way through this, because I don't really see much in here that's relevant to this discussion other than "you're scum."

If you're town, you shouldn't need the opinion of the town before you post.

Let me clarify this for you with this handy-dandy quote.

If you're scum and accusing me, then you already know I'm town. If you're scum and accusing me, responding to your accusations is meaningless. If you're scum and accusing me and I respond, it's only to satisfy the rest of the town town, because they're the only ones who don't know whether I'm scum or town.

[Phate]

Defending oneself from an attack by scum, especially one as weak as this one, does not give the town any information (unless they believe the attack to have merit). It merely clouds the issue.

[Phate]

Polly want a cracker?

[Phate]

Ok, people. I have claimed a town powerrole. The deadline is less than 36 hours away. Kabenon is scum, so that explains that, but Shanba and Yagami, why are you still voting me?

[Phate]

Gonna have to disagree with Kabenon's point still, Yagami - if the town can see that an attack is baseless, my pointing it out is at best useless and at worst distracting the town when we have precious little time to make a decision.

[Phate]

Ok, as much as I don't like Kabenon, I think I believe him here, because my role has a similar split and a similar tie to NPCs.

Unvote

Fuck. So who does that leave?

Vote: Spambot

[Phate]

I think that's a tie, actually. DoS and whoever the lamer that randomvoted Kab and hasn't been on since are still on, and isn't groinhammer on him?

Kabenon, you may not have time to test your powers - there's a strong possibility that one of us will die tonight. I'd just take a shot at whoever you think is the scummiest, or protect whoever you think is the towniest.

Unfortunately, this gets into WIFOM of the worst kind, especially when you guys don't know what my power(s) is/are, so I can't really advise you any further.

[Phate]

Oh, missed that clause.

In that case, your power seems kinda useless, at least for now, with no info on NPCs. So I agree - kill all those damned Italians... wait a second... I'm!... never mind.

[Phate]

That turned out just about like I expected.

Vote: Spambot

[Phate]

In case you hadn't noticed, Kabenon and I both claimed powerroles yesterday. So it was to be expected that one of us would die tonight.

[Phate]

Yes.

[Phate]

Are you back from V/LA?


I don't mind the way the wagon is growing. I dislike the fact that nobody has anything else to talk about.

[Phate]

If you want me to claim, put me at L-1.

[Phate]

[insert post here to avoid modkill]

Apologies for absence, posting should resume next year.

[Phate]

Yes. Kison. Unless someone wants to do something interesting and create some discussion, in which case I'd reconsider.

[Phate]

My top 2 are Kison and Elias. My third would be all of the lurkers as a collective, I guess. I don't really get scumvibes from anyone else, either due to townish play or inactivity.

[Phate]

Elias, to be honeset, it's mainly (read: almost exlusively) due to groinhammer's behaviour.

[Phate]

Primate, would you post the role PMs and what the different PMs did? I was a jailkeeper that only worked as long as a certain npc was alive.