Mini 1787: Peruvian Nightclub Mafia (Game End!)

[Tyler the Creator]

This is an interesting way/reason for town-leaning Tyler the Creator [based on the nature of him being mass-town-read]. I kind of switch off to the popular town/scum reads on D1. Have you found this observation-method accurate in previous games?

Not sure whether I've used this particular way of looking through things in an MS game before...I'd lean toward no. I think I actually approached it this way because I'm fresh off a game night where me and a couple other scummers played Resistance. I won't go into the details of how that game differs from forum mafia, but suffice to say that when scumhunting in that game you need to look at things a little differently. Specifically, you have to watch for ways that people make choices that seem to align them with certain other players.

meanwhile this is the most obvious scum/scum interaction ive ever read

[toolenduso]

tool you used that same exact case on me day 2

Didn't look it into it nearly as deeply then.

- fucked off for a week

Three days between the post you're talking about and my next vote (which was on xyzzy). And I was posting in the interim.

and came back to see town wasn't buying into it and dropped that read like a bad habit the rest of the game

Well, a couple things. First, you made good arguments against a couple of my points in #772 and successfully talked me back on the read a little bit. Second, I was in the middle of doing a bunch of game research when I posted that -- looking back at interactions with HA and vice versa. What I came away with was that other people looked worse than you.

And then D3/gambits/claims happened and blew everything up.

Third, I never really tried pushing you. So it's not that I was pushing to get you lynched and nobody responded. It's that I was doing research and found you looked worse than I thought, but still not as bad as other players so I pushed them instead of you.

also your theory about me lurking out day 1 is first of all bs and also falls apart to reason when you look at how i was perfectly comfortable interacting with keyser from very early on in the game and questioning him sometimes relatively hard on shit

I'm not saying you lurked out D1, I'm saying you lurked at very specific moments of the game. And I'm not talking about Keyser at all right now in fact, I'm talking about HA. So I'm not sure how your interactions with Keyser are supposed to make a difference here.

[toolenduso]

All right gonna look at the Dunn gambit now. Timeline: Dunn claimed cop in #1634, Jake cc'd in #1638, Bins claimed voyeur in #1691 and Dunn retracted in #1693.

Tyler's immediate reaction is fine:

so no respectable setup review would sign off on two cops

jake's hammer gave me more PR vibes than scumvibes

his investigation is more believable than dunn's (hip gunning here)

brb gonna check how they progressed with their reads on robert day 1 and 2

He does research, engages with both, generally seems to be trying to get one of them to admit that they're wrong. After Dunn retracts, Tyler asserts that Dunn is town:

the first thing i do if im godfather, have a good idea of who the cop is, pretty much know that they're checking me, well, it wouldn't be to CLAIM COP

it'd probably be something like

jump up and down for about five minutes

then coast to endgame on an undeserved win

something like that

Eh I'm not finding anything really that scummy-looking here unfortunately, he played it well. The only thing is that Tyler sorta maybe searched around for a way to think Dunn was scum in this bolded part:

if dunn's town i could see him being new and coming from a different site meta where bonkers shit like this happens all the time

the thought process "let me be the fall guy for the cop" isn't so ridiculous outside the MS bubble (it's only bad play in a very LAL environment)

i just wish his N1 check lined up more

Ugh why couldn't the last scum have just been jaack.

[toolenduso]

Creature lynch. D3 was from #1614-#2255. Tyler's votes during the day were on jaack (#1802), xyzzy (#2020), Jaack (#2066), xyzzy (#2141) and Creature (#2252).

So that's right. Tyler was actually the hammer on Creature. Now to go back and look over his interactions with the slot throughout the day. I'm gonna start toward the end of the Dunn-Jake stuff, because that dominated discussion for the first part of the day.

Tyler kinda pokes at Creature here:

sidenote; creature has posted since replacing in but has given zero content

...but still defends him:

creature needs to post - thought keyser was town not sure what you guys are seeing there

He actually comes out against Creature, but the tone is kinda jokey:

it's creature/jaack

game has been cracked

And of course he never votes Creature until the end of the day. In fact Tyler's next vote after this one was a switch from Jaack to xyzzy. He keeps pushing creature:

mmm yea creatures probably scum

Continues pushing Creature in #1871 and #1876, and more after that. Defends Creature based on Keyser-HA interactions:

thing is im isoing keyser and calling his push on ha bussing is sorta hard to swallow

Closest thing I see to an explanation for why he didn't vote Creature during all this is this post (the "barrier" he's talking about is Keyser hardbussing HA):

well don't laugh because if you want me to go the creature route over jaack today then you gotta help me break that barrier

im kinda almost at that point though after looking at things

He gets super close:

pretty down to lynch creature i think

...and then votes xyzzy, because:

it came to me in a dream

it feels right

This post sums up the scum explanation for Tyler's D3 pretty nicely I think:

day's obviously dragging. ill vote any of jaack, xy and creature. current preference put in order for convenience.

That gives him two options for mislynches and one for a bus in case he needs it. Throughout the day he mostly goes for the mislynches, and then at the end of the day Creature looks like the lynch so he hammers him. And it looks like it happened right up against deadline too:

Deadline is in less than 24 hours

[toolenduso]

Also I am going to be going on vacation starting Friday. I'll be driving all day on Friday and I'm going to a place where I will only be able to get on the internet once a day at most. So if the game is still going by then I will take a while to respond to things.

[Tyler the Creator]

Ugh why couldn't the last scum have just been jaack.

bins can you not feel how fake this is?

[Tyler the Creator]

i mean playing into GF paranoia is one of scums very few plays to make right now so im not all too surprised

I mean, I agree, but why say it now if Jaack is the only scum left? As in, why say something he doesn't really need to say until later when he's at L-1?

you guys are gonna call me crazy

but this is the post that truly woke me up to tool scum; well just what he ended up doing around this time anyway this post was just a slap in the face catalyst kinda thing

[Tyler the Creator]

it's a boring question that tool doesn't care the answer to and that isn't logic a guy like tool would write someone off for in the first place because it's literally null

if jaack's the last scum there he'd of been saying whatever shit would stick to break out of a lynch the fact tool didn't have any paranoia about that detail..

and completely brushed off xy town telling super hard to keep right on tunneling that just doesn't come from town

[Tyler the Creator]

i could quote all the really town posts from my iso?

like, tool's felt obvscum to me for a while.

how can i help you see it, bins

[Tyler the Creator]

Spoiler:

didn't like his questions in 34 and 40

the purpose isn't immediately clear

like if they're pointed - as in he thinks you're scum then why would he be asking about your behavior like he assumes you're posting for some specific gain, implying town

if that's him trying to get a read on you it's not as bad - but then the follow up is bad because your first response was kinda lame - and then your second response you started to push back a little bit and gave sorta a non-answer so i think the hesitance from him which essentially amounted to "need to see more" felt out of place

much lateral thinking, wow look at that scumhunting

A+ sir. This is town!

meh, i don't know why but i expected you to have some kinda soul read on zach by now cuz my impression is you've played a lot together but that's fair
i wanna say town but it's completely gut

actually got some townvibes from jaack's 13 - i mean yea if robert is legit going vla then voting him for not voting isn't great - but i think the flippancy there feels town if that makes sense
bonus points because i thought robert's entrance was awkward too

it'd be cool to know why out of everyone he thought jake was the most untrustworthy before i go more into it this though

check out the nice smooth inquisitive tone here! nicely done. this is what a town post looks like!

actual followup on the questions in a way that looks like he actually was genuinely curious of the answer too? bonus points as well!

Robert2424's RVS post is based on Jake from State Farm's RVS vote:

oh duh, that makes robert's opening a lot less awk looking then

what's this i see? changing his views of the game when new info or different order of events than what the player initially perceived in a non-awkward flowing way?

feels town

my reasoning for not committing to a specific opinion on Dunnstral so far is two-fold

im not sure if you're missing the point here or what but i think it's perfectly fine to not be comfortable with commiting to stances this early on especially when it comes to erratic players like dunnstral

and keyser sorta beat me to the punch here a bit; but what would really help is if you walked everyone through your thought process behind what initially prompted those questions and explain how if you thought that dunnstrals behavior was scummy what about his responses lead you from that to what now appears to be a null read

nice follow-through on the xy push here

looks like a genuine push

Bins says that if Dunn was scum-aligned, he would've dropped the joking front and became more serious after he was called out for it. I don't think this is true.

I think that this kind of WIFOM logic is used by scum-aligned players to justify their reads on players who are acting oddly, because they know what their alignment really is.

In this example, I was accusing Bins of knowing that Dunnstal was town-aligned, and using his erratic behavior as evidence to support this when it could support any justification, so Bins' inner bias and scum-aligned knowledge is showing.

yea but i asked you why you've moved on from that read - not to elaborate on it more lol

i just think there's a bit of a jump in your thought process here that doesn't feel town
within your elaboration here even if you don't agree with a certain methodology (how bins was going about approaching how to read dunn) i think that you're forcing scum motive into something that seems like an okay thought process to have

like im following the scum probably stop being loud after getting ridden by multiple people very early on thing well enough and ive taken similar approaches before so you capping it off with a declaration of "i disagree!" and then saying it's a scum thing doesn't sit right

and you going into what you thought was imaginary about it in detail should be a thing you do pretty soon here or else im gonna have to assume that you backed down from your reasoning just because you were getting scumread for it and that ends badly for you

if tyler's scum - then he's a goddamn master manipulator because just look at this post

look at the firmness yet fairness of how he's treating ira (scumread of his at the time) here

scum don't push like this; they don't leave space for town to wriggle out like this or care what town's side was

[Bins]

you guys have been equal to me this whole fucking game well played

jesus why did i let this happen

even creature made you guys equal
his posts he made to the both of you were the same pretty much
he read you the same

i read you the same like "eh town but the paranoia might get to me sooner or later"

i'm probably going to end up voting for tool jfc

[Tyler the Creator]

got bored 5 posts in you get the idea, though

pedit - oh hi

[toolenduso]

Are you serious? You went back over your own ISO to find places where you thought you did a good job of looking town?

And it's working?

[Bins]

omg i should be keeping score here

[Tyler the Creator]

Are you serious? You went back over your own ISO to find places where you thought you did a good job of looking town?

And it's working?

gotta be your own hypeman sometimes

[toolenduso]

All right lotta problems in that post about Jaack.

it's a boring question that tool doesn't care the answer to and that isn't logic a guy like tool would write someone off for in the first place because it's literally null

It's not a boring question and the answer to it wasn't null. ScumJaack didn't really need to make that argument yet, it looked scummy and when you're the last remaining scum at L-1 you usually don't do things that'll make you look even scummier.

And further, I was pointing it out specifically because you brought it up as an argument that I didn't understand. Turns out there was a reason for that -- you wanted to justify mislynching Jaack.

if jaack's the last scum there he'd of been saying whatever shit would stick to break out of a lynch the fact tool didn't have any paranoia about that detail..

This does not make any sense to me. TOF would not have made sense as a mislynch at the time. He was perhaps the least-suspected player in the game. Hence why trying to get TOF lynched was a move that might have made it more likely for Jaack to get lynched, not less likely.

and completely brushed off xy town telling super hard to keep right on tunneling that just doesn't come from town

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You mean xyzzy's AtE? Because that was not towntelling. It was AtE.

Jaack was towntelling, and you literally brushed it off. Here, look at how you responded to my question:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Tyler the Creator]

^this is what a tool scumpost looks like that obviously isn't highly previewed and re-edited

will rip to shreds shortly been waiting for this

[Tyler the Creator]

Number one thing about this post and tool's posts all throughout this lylo and the last couple days even. Notice the tone.
Very defensive. A LOT of oh this logic doesn't make sense. Fuck feelings. Black and white going on.

All right lotta problems in that post about Jaack.

even the initial line is scummy; the tone here is of a "oh here we go again it's so obvious all the problems with anything that have to do with my being scum"

but then why respond to it in this way?
who's the audience of this post?

It's not a boring question and the answer to it wasn't null.

Yea it was. That's a very surface-level thing to read someone town for. You know it is.

The reasoning is literally; jaack is town because scum wouldn't say "don't forget TOF might be godfather"
Your question was "why does jaack even say that as scum"
My initial post was neutral anyway - you weren't challenging any position and the answer to it bordered on rhetorical.
The answer is "why do scum do anything."
Or a shrug.

You literally put off posting content because you wanted my answer to that?
Yea, no. Please.
Oozes the fake.

And further, I was pointing it out specifically because you brought it up as an argument that I didn't understand. Turns out there was a reason for that -- you wanted to justify mislynching Jaack.

1) wasn't on that mislynch
2) i invented the jaack wagon
3) i invented the xy wagon

there's a reason they still went through without my help; SCUM FUCKING INVOLVEMENT

This does not make any sense to me. TOF would not have made sense as a mislynch at the time. He was perhaps the least-suspected player in the game. Hence why trying to get TOF lynched was a move that might have made it more likely for Jaack to get lynched, not less likely.

it's because you're scum and are purposely taking my good points and weirdly trying to understand them wrong

it's k

we aren't talking about mislynching TOF; we're talking about how you tried to enter into jaacks mind and instead of using a spoon to actually dig in you scrapped at it with sandpaper and collected a small sample of shavings

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You mean xyzzy's AtE? Because that was not towntelling. It was AtE.

one of the townest posts in the thread - you not recognizing that spoke a lot about how scum you were

Jaack was towntelling, and you literally brushed it off. Here, look at how you responded to my question:

we've been over this within this post already

i guess now i understand why all your posts have so much volume to them; you repeat the same shit over and over again, take posts out of context and add weirdly play-by-play commentary while stretching tinfoil scum motive to it; preview it about 100 times while editing, maybe with a coffee, possibly a donut, with some jams playing in the background, laughing maniacally (like all scum do)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[toolenduso]

OK this is getting transparent af now. I'll get into the rest of it but this really stood out to me:

And further, I was pointing it out specifically because you brought it up as an argument that I didn't understand. Turns out there was a reason for that -- you wanted to justify mislynching Jaack.

1) wasn't on that mislynch

That is such a technicality. Look at this:

Votecount 4.03

Jaack (L-1)

: xyzzy, Dunnstral, Tyler

xyzzy (L-3)

: Toolenduso

Not Voting

: TheOtherFiction, Bins, Jaack

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

Oh, you weren't on that mislynch? That's because the mislynch didn't happen that day. But you jumped on the xyzzy wagon at the same time as Dunn did and put it at L-1.

This is stretched reasoning so you can argue against things you know are true.

[Tyler the Creator]

your argument for me not answering your bs scum questions is because why would i as scum want to halt momentum on a mislynch i would need to win the game

when it's clear what my stances have been wrt to lynch preference the last 3 day phases now

[Tyler the Creator]

and had no problem slamming the breaks on xy?

blatant cherry picking

[toolenduso]

And Bins, Tyler is trying to directly appeal to you in a sneaky way right now. Look at the narrative he's trying to build in this post:

tone ...
Very defensive ... Fuck feelings ...

i guess now i understand why all your posts have so much volume to them; you repeat the same shit over and over again, take posts out of context and add weirdly play-by-play commentary while stretching tinfoil scum motive to it; preview it about 100 times while editing, maybe with a coffee, possibly a donut, with some jams playing in the background, laughing maniacally (like all scum do)

Now let's look at some of the stuff Bins has said this game oh I don't know how about:

I have a tendency to be paranoid of people who act like they know what they're doing.

WHY ARE ALL OF MY READS BASED ON GUT WE HAVE SO MUCH TO GO OFF OF

I'm only townreading Tool because of what he has done. Not his tone, his mannerisms, his presence.

He is directly appealing to the fact that you've been paranoid and explicitly relying on your gut all game. He's openly attacking me for using logic and describing me as something insidious that you

should

be paranoid about.

[Tyler the Creator]

lol

[Tyler the Creator]

or we just scumhunt similarly?

[toolenduso]

There is a reason I play this way. I've spent literally the last 11 years of my life involved in things that call on you to look at the facts before you say something. So I don't just spout off, I go back and look at what's happened in the game before I post. I do my best to make sure I'm not misremembering things. I let the evidence guide my arguments.