Mini 1800 - Game Over

[qubixes]

We have two weeks now, instead of two days. I might vote Dierfire at some point, depending on what will happen.

And no, that wasn't the reason I thought your voting pattern looked suspicious. Not sure why I should be careful. Do you think I'm a good lynch candidate?

I didn't ask you when you were going to vote Dierfire. I asked you what made you change your vote from him to me over this night? The length of D2 can't be the reason you switch your vote to me given that you say you won't vote me on D1 because it'd be hard to push a lynch on me seeing as I was being town read. So that's a non-answer. But good try. +2 for effort.

Also, even if having 2 days left(plenty of time by the way, you even admit to that in 900)

was

a reason not to push a lynch for someone, then why even bother voting Dierfire in the first place? Why didn't you just keep your vote on Johnny before I called you out on it? Or better yet, why even try to vote anyone at all? Why not wait until D2 to put out your vote?

Also, I didn't ask

why

you thought my voting pattern looked suspicious. I asked if my voting pattern was one of the reasons you questioned my slot in the first place. Once again, non-answer. Don't worry, I found the answer for you: 743. You're welcome.

As for your question, yes, I think you're a good lynch candidate. Your responses to my questions have been lackluster and most importantly, contradictory. Very different from D1. You don't seem to do well under pressure.

I didn't think 2 days was enough to lynch you, and it would have been a waste of effort/time. Dierfire seemed like the next best possibility for scum, and Wingback (who I had a town read on) made a case on Dierfire which I thought was pretty good. Since you jumped on the Johnny wagon, it seemed like the best wagon to push. Obviously, when I think the main wagon might be town, I shouldn't be just waiting for Day 2 to make my vote. I don't know why you would suggest that.

I don't know what your point is about the voting pattern. You seemed to imply (again) that I was scummy because of my votes were shifty, and that I accused you of the same. I didn't accuse your votes of being shifty, I accused your timing to be suspicious, i.e. delayed. So I answered it briefly, but correctly, no.

I don't have any need for advice such as "stop getting emotional". Don't worry, I don't miss any sleep over it. Doesn't mean you're not acting like a jerk. It's even fine if you're scum to be honest. Undermining someone's credibility is a totally valid strategy. Because that is what you are doing. And it is scummy as fuck. (Not misguided as fuck.)

[MechaGoomba]

998 is really bothering me; there's something about it that feels incredibly unnatural. Qubixes vaguely doubtcasts on me, doesn't actually address my point beyond "sounds like a bad plan", then deflects to "lynch within this small group" ... It just doesn't make sense to me. Anyone willing to help me figure it out?

My read for MathBlade is dominated by their frustration over the karnos lynch. If Math is scum, that frustration has to come from somewhere; not only would it be difficult to push a mislynch with such intensity, it wouldn't even be beneficial, because being that angry is a good way to get people to dismiss you. (I ignore the possibility that Math is bussing karnos because that would be incredibly stupid.)
So what, exactly, would scum!Math be so frustrated over? Not having the karnos mislynch wouldn't be a problem; they got a mislynch anyway, and if they wanted to, they could've tried NKing karnos. Doctor would be a possibility, but enough people were still scumreading karnos, I wouldn't be confident in the doctor targeting him.
The best reason I can come up with for scum!Math to be so angry at karnos getting out of suspicion so easily is that one of their scumbuddies didn't. But then you have the question, who was the scumbuddy? I can't think of anyone that fits the bill; they'd have to be under serious suspicion that didn't go away, and it would have to have appeared before Math started raging at karnos not being lynched.

For those reasons, I'm not willing to vote MathBlade yet. I'm going to VOTE: qubixes with the note that I'm also

FOSing Masquerade

.

[qubixes]

@Mecha: Ask me a question if you want to figure me out? I thought your "if Johnny flips scum, we might want to lynch quib" rather scummy, because it sounds like you're trying to line me up for lynching. So I tried to figure out whether your intentions were good or bad. Then just now realized I wasn't going to figure it out by asking that question. What point do you want me to address?

[Dierfire]

Spoiler: @Wingback (if still following this game)

The underlined portions together suggest that I'm your second scumread after Kappy. Yet, nothing you said about me in this quote are reasons why I'm scum and could potentially be reasons for townreading me. Apparently you agree with all my reads but one. You think my perspective on Karnos is plausible from town, my reasons for lynching Johnny are apparently not scummy to you considering you don't find it suspicious when you thought Persivul said the same thing. So, how am I your second scumread? That read looks like you saw my list of points against you and decided you'd push me but couldn't come up with any reasons why.

The reason that this sounded like I was reading you as Town is because I was reading you as Town! When I said that I would lynch you first "of these" I meant "of these players, all of whom I am reading as Town" (that is, you were my weakest Town read, not my second-weakest Mafia read).

[Dierfire]

I still don't think that I want to lynch karnos today (in fact, having two VT flips should slightly improve his chances of being Town). His results (or lack thereof) are, to my mind, less important as a way of reading him than are his reasons for choosing targets (reasons for targeting Persivul in 994 are fine on their surface, I may eventually get around to evaluating the game state at the time to make sure) and, most importantly, the composition of the rest of the game as it is revealed over time (meaning the roles of the other players to flip).

[Dierfire]

@Firebringer

Did you read (any of) the reasons that Wingback gave for casting a vote for me?

[Dierfire]

@MechaGoomba

My read for MathBlade is dominated by their frustration over the karnos lynch. If Math is scum, that frustration has to come from somewhere; not only would it be difficult to push a mislynch with such intensity, it wouldn't even be beneficial, because being that angry is a good way to get people to dismiss you. (I ignore the possibility that Math is bussing karnos because that would be incredibly stupid.)

Why would it be stupid for MathBlade to be behaving in that fashion as Mafia?
If karnos and MathBlade are both Mafia, it strikes me that placing the L-1 vote in 602 would look like a rushed attempt to be on the correct wagon, and the fact that MathBlade was reluctant to vote for JohnnyFarrar (giving a fairly abstract meta-defense in 893) while approaching others based on associations with karnos (presumed Mafia) would strike me as a failure to fully simulate a Town mindset.
If karnos is Town, MathBlade could be simulating frustration, and the fact that such a push is unlikely to succeed would not seem to me to be a problem if JohnnyFarrar (Town) is the only viable wagon.

[Dierfire]

It's clear to me that I need to think seriously about rescinding one of my Town reads; I'm not so confident in my abilities as to think that all of the Mafia players are outside that group (that would be a team of karnos, MathBlade, and Kappy), although I'd be disappointed in myself if there are no Mafia players there.

As MechaGoomba and MagnaofIllusion are the stronger reads (and as they write a lot), they are low priority for reconsideration.
Persivul, Firebringer, and Saru are the most dated reads; they would be good places to start.
Masquerade and qubixes will be in the intermediate tier.

[Masquerade]

Qubixes, yes, my hammer was bad. It was selfish. I was afraid we were going to end up no-lynching and took matters into my own hands and hammered while I still had the chance. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sorry but it happened, we can't change it. So if you scumread me for it you go and push me and make a case on me. And if not then just stfu and accept that it happened.

[Masquerade]

Oh, new page..

[Persivul]

It's clear to me that I need to think seriously about rescinding one of my Town reads; I'm not so confident in my abilities as to think that all of the Mafia players are outside that group (that would be a team of karnos, MathBlade, and Kappy), although I'd be disappointed in myself if there are no Mafia players there.

As MechaGoomba and MagnaofIllusion are the stronger reads (and as they write a lot), they are low priority for reconsideration.
Persivul, Firebringer, and Saru are the most dated reads; they would be good places to start.
Masquerade and qubixes will be in the intermediate tier.

Oh wow that's a bad post.

[MechaGoomba]

What point do you want me to address?

1) Do you scumread me? If yes, are you planning on pushing me any time soon? If no, what was the "if you're scum" part of 998 about?
2) In 998, you said trying to get towncred by pushing to halt an inevitable townie wagon would be "a bad plan." Why is this, and why should I expect that scum!you didn't make a mistake?
3) In 898, you've said your scumread on Johnny was weak; why vote him in the first place, then?
4) In 898, you also said you didn't feel strongly about anyone. Can you point me to any proactive efforts you've made to change that?
5) In 1000, you said you didn't vote Saru because it would've been a waste of time to try to lynch him. Why didn't you apply the same reasoning to Dierfire?

Why would it be stupid for MathBlade to be behaving in that fashion as Mafia?

It would be stupid for Math to behave in that fashion if karnos was mafia, because then the whole lengthy Math tunnel on karnos would be a bus.
If it was an unplanned bus, Math's scumbuddies would have yelled at them in daychat and convinced them to back off long before they did.
If it was a planned bus, karnos would have been resigned to getting lynched and wouldn't have claimed Neapolitan. He'd have gone for something that would get CCed to out PRs.

MathBlade could be simulating frustration

If it was just "Math tunnels karnos and walls", I could see that, but Math was completely focused on scum!karnos even when not pushing him. I don't think they could fake that; scum would either back off completely and focus elsewhere entirely, never back off at all, or find some way to slowly downgrade it to a scumread.
Simulating being so frustrated that you keep someone as your scumread, but pretend not to because you know others won't listen, but some of it leaks out anyway, is too many Yomi levels for me to accept.

[Saru]

I didn't think 2 days was enough to lynch you, and it would have been a waste of effort/time. Dierfire seemed like the next best possibility for scum, and Wingback (who I had a town read on) made a case on Dierfire which I thought was pretty good. Since you jumped on the Johnny wagon, it seemed like the best wagon to push. Obviously, when I think the main wagon might be town, I shouldn't be just waiting for Day 2 to make my vote. I don't know why you would suggest that.

You can't have it both ways. If you thought that 2 days wasn't enough to push a lynch on me, then why even try to push a lynch on anyone at that point? Why not stay with your Johnny vote? The excuse that you "gut" read Johnny as town and that is why you unvoted is beyond weak. The unvote timing was way too coincidental seeing as we were nearing his lynch and I had pointed out how you looked suspect for even voting him. By the way, Wingback's case on Dierfire wasn't the fucking nail in his coffin. It was a good case, yes, but it didn't mean that he was all of sudden going to be the perfect lynch candidate in 2 days time. It wasn't like the majority of the town was scum reading him like crazy before or even after that case. Plus, even if some people did scum read him, you'd have to assume that people would be readily willing to jump off the Johnny wagon at the last second to lynch Dierfire. Looking back on it, that obviously wasn't going to happen. You could even argue that 2 days was more than enough time to see Dierfire slip up and then you could convince town to push a lynch on him. But if that were the case, the same would apply to me. I wasn't some angel to the town. Some people did have their doubts about me near the end of D1. The end of Wingback's 894 is proof of that. The amount of effort needed to push a lynch on me vs. Dierfire wasn't really all that different seeing as both of us were at a whopping 0 votes when Wingback made the case on Dierfire. What was stopping you from making a similar case on me? Even if you weren't going to vote me, making the case going into D2 wouldn't have hurt. Instead, you gave some theatrical little performance in 898.

I don't know what your point is about the voting pattern. You seemed to imply (again) that I was scummy because of my votes were shifty, and that I accused you of the same. I didn't accuse your votes of being shifty, I accused your timing to be suspicious, i.e. delayed. So I answered it briefly, but correctly, no.

Then in this case, couldn't I just argue that your jump off the Johnny wagon was too "delayed" to be town? Don't you see how this "delayed" argument you're using is weak as fuck? You just seem to love nit-picking other people's actions, but hate it when it happens to you.

I don't have any need for advice such as "stop getting emotional". Don't worry, I don't miss any sleep over it. Doesn't mean you're not acting like a jerk. It's even fine if you're scum to be honest. Undermining someone's credibility is a totally valid strategy. Because that is what you are doing. And it is scummy as fuck. (Not misguided as fuck.)

More emotion. When someone catches you making a mistake, that doesn't make them a jerk. But as scum, I can see how you might feel that.

Responses in

bold.

[MathBlade]

Will be online later tonight work running late.

[MathBlade]

You sure you aren't just full of shit? Did some reading overnight to try to find Neopolitan games and I found viewtopic.php?p=7751207#p7751207

What exactly did you learn about this game from a game which had a scum neapolitan who was lynched D1?

Look at the specific post I quoted. There is a major paragraph there that freakin states site meta is you let someone off the damn hook for claiming Neopolitan because it is so damn rare because site meta.

This is a prime example of why "because we always do it is bad". Scum adjust and learn to those tactics. For example I am willing to bet we are going to start seeing a major shift of doomed as fuck scum on the site claim some kind of investigative and role blocked because of "site meta". Where I came from on DLP you had the person claim to see if the claim matched the specific style of scumminess they were called out for. If it didn't you lynched them. If they were town and didn't live up to what town wanted too bad. And the scary thing is most of the time on DLP they were right.

What I learned was if I haven't taught people that "site meta" is not the holy grail then I haven't done my job in making sure I help everyone see all the possibilities. If you have reasons why besides "the claim" you believe Karnos is town then you have those. Let's debate those. But D1 everyone moved onto a townread of mine and I went absolutely powerless to stop it because of some bullshit "site meta". Town does not do the things Karnos did day one. The main reason I am so pissed is people seem to be building this "OMG Town always does this list when Y happens" such a list spells absolute doom.

It is always analysis over information. Every fucking time. Iioa is almost always bad.

[MathBlade]

...I have to go to work. I need a break from stupidity.
1) NEVER EVER vote your town reads....EVER.
2) There were two days left. If you actually believed Johnny was town you would have been happy people moved off his wagon and considered other sources.
3) That isn't agreeing with Fire. Fire said they kill threats. I suggested steer conversation which would imply Karnos is town. If Karnos was scum Wingback is not a threat.

I want the truth. What is up with players trying to give others what they want to hear instead of the truth? The only reason I am not voting you right now after that contradictory pile of bullshit is that I want Karnos to feel some goddamn pressure so people will see if he is telling the truth or not.

1) Depends on how strong you town read someone.
2) It could be a compromise because some people are not extremely stubborn and willing to admit they could be wrong.
3) Masq said that they kill pr suspects and threats. Your last sentence doesn't make sense. Why do you keep using "steer conversation" IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE USE DIFFERENT WORDS CAUSE I DONT UNERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY

1) No. It doesn't. You always vote a null read or a scum read never a town one.
2) Town doesn't compromise with two days left. You poke push prod explain. Someone then pokes holes at what you say. If someone can convince me Karnos is town and actually has an argument that is not "the claim" then I will listen to said argument. Similarly if someone has an argument as to why someone is scum and they are a town read of mine I will pressure that. It is how Mafia works. Never compromise with scum.
3) Exactly that. On other sites, a kill can be one of three things
a) Perceived threat
B) Misdirection
C) a null kill
The latter two steer conversation away from the original suspicion. All three are valid strategies. In this case I find it likely that this is a hard thing to tell. I haven't had a chance to do NK analysis since I was at work til late but hopefully that will shed light on which of the three (or multiples) it is. To assume it is always choice A is idiotic.

[MathBlade]

Also, when I'm scum I kill the players I can't mislynch. Wingback would fall into that category for me.

Math, everyone plays this game differently. We can speculate why scum killed someone, but as long as we don't have a scumflip it's going to be REALLY hard to figure it out for sure.

Generally yes, it is technically speculation but there are generally hard facts to base that speculation off of.

Instead of just looking at who the person suspected, also look at who they town read. Especially in the later game. In the late game looking back on earlier kills a pattern can begin to emerge there in who could be that one vote that will never happen.

I could ramble on about the things you look at but there are a lot of factors. Like a CSI investigation.
On top of that there are the reactions when you do post it. Do you get buy in? Are you immediately labeled as crazy? The more memorable you are when you are NK'd/mislynched the more likely someone looks at your posts again and then sees what you were saying. It also depends on who believes you and who says you are crazy.

NK analysis is a very useful tool for finding scum and to brush it off like that is ridiculous and scummy.

[MathBlade]

I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.

Mathblade, if Karnos was scum he would have talked about his result with his buddies. There are more reasons for Karnos' action to fail, yet he can only come up with 2 of the most common roles that mess with investigation. If Karnos had talked to scumbuddies, I'm sure more option would have come up, like commuter or hider or roles like that. But he didn't mention them. It also makes a lot of sense to me that Karnos picked Persivul to investigate.
And that's why I still think Karnos is town.

Johnny wasn't a townread. I just didn't believe he was scum. If Johnny was an actual townread, I would have tried harder to stop the lynch. Ffs just read my goddamn posts from when I first voted him to where I finally hammered him.
I wanted a flip. I was selfish. I assumed we would have a frantic last hour where we had to hastily put a wagon together. I have meta but sadly it's an ongoing game so I can't explain rn. Hopefully soon.

I already said I think Wingback was killed because scum want Karnos misslynched.

That is not an argument as to why Karnos is town. He could have easily been coached before posting that. You are saying because he limited options it sounds authentic.....I need more walls to bang my head against. This morning did not help enough.

[MathBlade]

Can we literally stop talking about actions?
Like, read the content of his posts and tell me what his motivation is. I am not going to town or scum read someone on bs claims.

Someone with a brain. Please ISO Karnos and explain how town tries to mason hunt in thread. Thank you for at least keeping a goddamn open mind that you analyze over claims.

[MathBlade]

@Mecha: Wouldn't a scum Johnny flip not implicate me more?

No. If you were bussing, you'd have no reason to jump off the wagon right as the lynch became inevitable. It would waste the towncred gained from bussing.
Hopping on to push the wagon, then having misgivings when it was inevitable so you could get towncred for predicting it?
Also, I really like how you said this before Johnny flipped town. Smacks of foreknowledge; I know I'd never defend myself based on the flip of someone I don't know the alignment of.

How do you go from this –
To this –
In nine whopping posts?

My initial thought was "well that was really anti-town but there are obvious motives for town!Masq to do such a thing." Then I realized a lot of people didn't see the motives until Masq explained them, so it wasn't actually obvious, so I figured "let Masq explain/people push Masq into explaining, then I can analyze and see if the stated motives make sense." Because, well, Masq knows his motives better than I do.

I investigated persivul. No result. Either I got roleblocked, or persivul got jailed.

I get a sense that I'm being setup, like scum have a blocker or something, so they can push for my lynch tomorrow when I don't get a result.

Wow karnos! You successfully predicted that scum had a blocker day 1! How unlikely!

If Karnos had talked to scumbuddies, I'm sure more option would have come up, like commuter or hider or roles like that.

"If karnos was scum he'd have played better because scum have daytalk."
Good lord this is such a WIFOMy defense I'm tempted to just say you're both scum and be done with it.

@karnos: Why did you investigate Persivul rather than Masquerade? Masq had claimed VT; you'd have been able to confirm him either as town or as scum by checking.

Why does everyone fucking like that Karnos claimed roleblocked? /sigh
As I explained earlier if Karnos is town (which I doubt) scum have 0 reason to block him. If they claim not VT then that person would be claiming a PR at that point which only helps scum. Especially because of the worshipped "almighty" "holy" site meta that is practically a religion. Atheism this way.

Someone actually asking a question to karnos!! Hooray!

[MathBlade]

I’m whelmed by karnos’s results.

@karnos

– please elaborate on why you chose Pers as your claimed target because re-reading you ISO I’m not seeing much to leads me to think that choice makes sense.

Reading back through end of Day I really don’t like either Math or Quib’s reaction to the hammer pre-flip. And wanted to highlight the following Wingback post –

@Mathblade, why would a hypothetical scum-Masquerade quickhammer Johnny if all the other lynch options (Dierfire, Mathblade) are town? You say Dierfire is a bad pick and I'm assuming you think you are town.

Masquerade's hammer makes the most sense if he's scum with one of Mathblade or Dierfire, and Johnny is town. I'm guessing he saw the case on Dierfire and qubixes agreeing and panicked at the possibility of a last minute switch. I don't buy for a second that there would be "apathy and no flip" when there are more than two days left to deadline. Also think if Masquerade was town, he'd at least give Johnny time to claim after hammer intent was stated. There was a four minute gap between his intent and hammer.

I need to thoroughly re-read Saru as well. In my notes I had him as town for his angry/genuine response to Persivul and his breakdown of Kappy's logic in Post 237. But his later posting has been a cause for concern.

That’s a pretty strong impression of the following as his parting thoughts.

@Firebringer

– why based on looking at Wing did you choose Dier for today’s vote?

A vote without reasons makes me suspect Dierfire might be being set up.

So who are your scum-reads again? Because I don’t recall you looking sideways at Chumba / Bulge / Firebringer yesterday when you were howling for karnos / Masq / my heads. But the only person who could be scum capitalizing on setting up Dier would be Firebringer and that doesn’t seem to fit your paradigm from Day 1. And you started the day voting Quib.

Well scum better be afraid because I do NK analysis. I do vote count analysis (differently than Titus). Did I not say Johnny was town? Did I not say that how that wagon formed by Masquerade and hammered by Masquerade was bad?

So despite Quib’s position of agreeing with you that the Johnny wagon was bad and Masq being the end-all-be-all of scum according to this you didn’t start the day voting him and instead voted Quib?

...Are you really pressuring me because I had the balls to ask questions and try to read the slot that interacted. Reads evolve. I was suspecting Quibixes for the end of day shift as evidenced by the posts at the end of the day. I thought more pressure needed to be applied while the conversation was going. Then with Karnos's results coming out I wanted to call attention to what I think is absolute bullshit. If I claimed Flying Spaghetti Monster with the ability to wrap all scum in a post restriction that every post they must end with I am scum and said "OMG I am so important please jailkeep/roleblock/protect me" and then it would be suspicious if no one had such a post restriction. Replace Flying Spaghetti Monster with "Neopolitan" and post restriction with results.

I do not have enough votes for all of my scum reads. Therefore I poke and push and prod. I attempt to read people.

[MathBlade]

My thoughts on karnos claim and results:

1. I doubt it's a fake claim, because it's so unusual. I think scum making something up would choose something seen more frequently. This is the first I've heard of neapolitan.

2. If he's genuinely neapolitan and scum, I think he would have wanted to give a result in order to get towncred. It's bad for scum to make conftowns, but they can be killed as created, and a no result could be claimed on a later night.

3. I make sense as a target. I started off good and some people are town reading me, but my game went downhill and some are scum reading me. Also, I'm good at defending when pressed. I.e. I'm kind of scummy, but won't be easy to lynch. That's a good target for an investigation.

1. Did you not read the post I gave you that is practically "Scum's guide to get out of lynched for newbies"?
2. Or he could have just wanted to not give any results either. See it is called WiFoM. That is not a reason to like it.
3. Did you really say you are a good target for investigation because you are a good player? Then why was such a good player such as yourself wagoned on D1? Don't get me wrong I am town reading you right now but I think ego is not a valid argument.

[MathBlade]

It's clear to me that I need to think seriously about rescinding one of my Town reads; I'm not so confident in my abilities as to think that all of the Mafia players are outside that group (that would be a team of karnos, MathBlade, and Kappy), although I'd be disappointed in myself if there are no Mafia players there.

As MechaGoomba and MagnaofIllusion are the stronger reads (and as they write a lot), they are low priority for reconsideration.
Persivul, Firebringer, and Saru are the most dated reads; they would be good places to start.
Masquerade and qubixes will be in the intermediate tier.

I still don't think that I want to lynch karnos today (in fact, having two VT flips should slightly improve his chances of being Town). His results (or lack thereof) are, to my mind, less important as a way of reading him than are his reasons for choosing targets (reasons for targeting Persivul in 994 are fine on their surface, I may eventually get around to evaluating the game state at the time to make sure) and, most importantly, the composition of the rest of the game as it is revealed over time (meaning the roles of the other players to flip).

...A town read isn't something you "rescind". It is not a gift. It is something you have or you don't. I am not begging to be a recipient of your town read. Writing a lot is not an indication of town else everyone would plainly see I am the towniest town to ever fucking town. No. Instead is how you play the game that should give people pause and reread. Furthermore assuming you aren't right about your reads? What changes?

Does Karnos become town? Kappy? Me? This looks like a big attempt to get out of jail free card of any accountability:

[qubixes]

1) Do you scumread me? If yes, are you planning on pushing me any time soon? If no, what was the "if you're scum" part of 998 about?

Not really at the moment. Your "if Johnny flips town, maybe we should lynch qubix tomorrow" gave me some bad vibes, but that's about it. My question was to try and read you, but it partly depended on you not knowing Johnny's alignment. If you're scum you knew Johnny's alignment, so I can't read you properly. In other words, I was trying to see if I could persuade you in saying that I would be even scummier (in your eyes) if Johnny flipped town, which would be super scummy in my eyes. In hindsight, this was too ambitious, and too reliant on you making a mistake as scum.

2) In 998, you said trying to get towncred by pushing to halt an inevitable townie wagon would be "a bad plan." Why is this, and why should I expect that scum!you didn't make a mistake?

Not sure what you're trying to get from me here, but I don't see scum!me doing that. I haven't played too many games, so it's kind of hard to say what scum!me would do anyway (even for me). I just haven't really seen anyone get towncred for jumping off an (according to you) inevitable lynch, so it seems kind of pointless to draw all kinds of attention this way.

3) In 898, you've said your scumread on Johnny was weak; why vote him in the first place, then?

Because he seemed at that time a reasonable alternative to Karnos. Getting more than one strong scum read is hard, especially Day 1, and I felt kind of deflated that Karnos got away. Also, the players on the wagon didn't seem scummy to me. Do you think it's bad to vote a weak scum read close to the deadline? (Also, the deadline was closer and further away at some point.) If yes, what do you think about Saru/Karnos/Masq's votes?

4) In 898, you also said you didn't feel strongly about anyone. Can you point me to any proactive efforts you've made to change that?

After I gave up my Karnos quest, I didn't really know what to do. And Saru (and you IIRC) was right that the thread was a bit of a pain to read. I tried to get some interaction with Magna (about Saru) to get more into the game.

5) In 1000, you said you didn't vote Saru because it would've been a waste of time to try to lynch him. Why didn't you apply the same reasoning to Dierfire?

His position seemed less strong than Saru's, just judging from the thread. If I was wrong, I should have gone for Saru. Not that it would've mattered really. Do you think it's scummy? Why would pissing off one person, and trying to get someone else lynched be a good strategy as scum? (Unless me and Saru are partners I guess, but that sounds a bit unreasonable right now, doesn't it?)

[qubixes]

@Saru:

Thanks for pointing out I have emotions, mr. Robot, really helpful. You really are twisting my words the way you like. I didn't call you a jerk for saying my reasoning on the Johnny hop was bad.

And jumping off Johnny's wagon is like the opposite of delayed. The Johnny wagon wasn't evaporating, so my hop off wasn't "delayed". If you want to find examples in my ISO, my hop off Karnos' wagon could be seen as delayed (though imo a bit too delayed), and my hop on Johnny's wagon was slightly late, but much less so than yours and Karnos's. Obviously, town is sometimes going to be delayed, and scum is sometimes going to be first. However, when it becomes a pattern, then yes, I think it is an indication. And I have seen it catch scum as well, so call it "nit-picking" or "weak as fuck", whatever.