Open 44 - Twofold Mafia: GAME OVER! before 506

[somestrangeflea]

Size 18 Votecount Heading

TylerJ - 5 (Jdodge, groinhammer, Dasquian, Rishi, Panzerjager)
ckillor - 2 (theopor_COD, TylerJ)
groinhammer - 1 (ChronX)

Not Voting - aioqwe, shaft.ed, ckillor, Max

12 alive, 7 to lynch

[TylerJ]

Thanks Dasquain. I honestly respect the fact that you admit that you don't have strong evidence against me. I respect your vote as well because of it. What I don't like is the fact that people pretend that I do have something against me, but never show it.

Now as far as the evaluations go, I definately got a lot out of Shaft.eds post. Max's role fishing was highly scummy. Fishing for a cop, in hopes that the mafia would kill... Perhaps this isn't a correct evaluation. But like everyone on me, nothing is 100%.

Ckillor is still suspicious to me, but when I said I was sure he was scum, I was testing for a reaction. But his inactivity is holding me up.

I find Max the most suspicious, but I won't vote for him just yet.

unvote. FoS: Max

[Rishi]

I find Max the most suspicious, but I won't vote for him just yet.

unvote. FoS: Max

What good does an FoS do at this point? Max has no votes on him and there's no danger of him being immediately lynched.

I often don't like the FoS at this stage of the game. It's too wishy-washy.

[ChronX]

*imagines what Rishi would have said if Tyler had voted for Max.

or if he had voted for someone else.*

Tyler, it is out of character for me to do this, but in this case I am going to ask for you to claim. The wagon on you isn't going away and there are a couple of players not voting whose actions, in this game and meta-wise, are not entirely predictable.

[ckillor]

hey im here, i went out of town, but ill try and post something with content later

[Rishi]

*imagines what Rishi would have said if Tyler had voted for Max.

or if he had voted for someone else.*

If he had voted for Max, I would probably say nothing. I'm not super-suspicious of Max, but I understand why someone would vote for him.

What I would say if he voted for someone else would depend on who he voted for.

[shaft.ed]

wow just dropping in for a light read. Didn't intend for any content.

But ChronX a call for a claim with a wagon that really appears to be likely on it's way down that's just crazy. And you explain this play with logic that blames "unpredictable players." You've got to be kidding.

vote ChronX

And ckillor thanks for yet another 'I'm here but not going to say anything style post.

[Dasquian]

Is it on its way down, though? It seems that only PanzerJager is actively reconsidering his vote. I generally agree with ChronX on this one - put it this way: it would be nice if TylerJ didn't have to be put to L-1 before claiming and then get lynched by, eg ckillor "just popping in for a quick vote", and then turn out to be a cop.

Also: agree with drawing attention, once again, to ckillor's posts.

[PJ.]

I still want a claim from tyler but

Unvote, Vote:Ckillor

. I'm very upset with ckillor's responce to being let off the hook the last time. I think he is scum. Like, we're all busy and we all have times were their isn't much to say but we manage to post and we manage to actually post opinions. I believe he is scum trying to get by on the tyler wagon.

[ckillor]

I still want a claim from tyler but

Unvote, Vote:Ckillor

. I'm very upset with ckillor's responce to being let off the hook the last time. I think he is scum. Like, we're all busy and we all have times were their isn't much to say but we manage to post and we manage to actually post opinions. I believe he is scum trying to get by on the tyler wagon.

im not even on the tyler wagon. and i have been posting more content since i have come back into the game

[TylerJ]

Sorry, but to those of you who want me to claim, you aint getting it.

[ChronX]

This has been a really poor sequence of posts. Tyler makes the first really scummy post that I'm noticed him make in the game (301), but the only person who picks up on it is Rishi, who has tunnelvision on Tyler it has seemed to me.

However, I agree with Rishi that throwing an FoS on Max is kind of weak play from Tyler at this point. Voting him would be a confident town play; FoSing looks like an attempt to keep a little heat lit under Max (others have expressed some suspicion of him) but not committing yourself. Fearful, wishy washy play.

In the same thread, he buddies up to Shafted and Dasq. Reads as sympathy plea.

Shortly later, the sympathy plea works, as shafted hops in to vote me for my role claim call. If you meta me, you will find I actively campaign against day 1 role claims, so my play here is an exception (I almost typed "exceptional"). I feel some of the heat on tyler is forced, but I can see a couple of the non voters flinging down an "oh, fine, i'll vote the popular wagon to stop you all accusing ME of lurking" vote.

Panzerjager then posts a beaut, taking his vote OFF of Tyler, easing the pressure and making my roleclaim request meaningless. He pours a vote onto CK, who in 2 sentences and a pasted quote manages to contribute more to the game than he had to date ("I'm not even on the Tyler wagon" and lies ("I have been posting more content..." maybe in another thread, not this one). This fulfills shafted prophecy of the Tyler wagon losing steam, doubly since with the vote the ck one is now gaining momentum.

TylerJ refuses to claim, which at L-3 is the correct move.

Conclusions:

tylerJ has finally shown up on my radar with post 301, as noted in this post.

Rishi on the other hand, has earned a town point or 2; I think his remark to Tyler was on target, and he handled my sarcastic implied accusation of tunnelling with a good post as well.

Shafted votes me for the second time in the game for a rather flimsy reason, as well as his implied criticism of me in the middle of the game (the vote hopping more than theopor thing). I don't get it. He has expressed open suspicion of max and CA and Ckillor in his analyses, and has waffled on tyler's scumminess but seems in general agreement, but only now sees fit to slap a vote back on me, who he voted the first time for a reason he admitted was weak and unvoted quickly, and has since not analyzed me or mentioned me at all except obliquely.

I don't like panzerjager's unvote at all, because of his own statements in regard to his vote for tyler in the first place:

Without further ado, GH, I voted tyler because it generated almost 2 pages of conversation of Tyler under pressure. Seeing a person under pressure is key to determining if they are scum. He has not performed under pressure at all, but I've also noticed his join date, a mere two months ago. I can give him a little newbie leeway but his play reaks of unsure scum. I think I'm actually going to keep my vote here. I'm interested enough to see more from him and the one or two people who have risen quite a few alarms in regards to Tyler's pressure. That will wait for now. "Let the evidence gather

He wants to see Tyler perform under pressure but under the pressure of a call to role claim, he removes the pressure.

My suspect list continues to be Max and GH, but with 2 groups to hunt for, I need to look wider anyway, so I want to see Tyler's feet held to the fire a little longer:

unvote
VOTE: TylerJ

[shaft.ed]

ChronX, I realize my play was unexplained. I aught to have time to get some more content behind it.

Your request for a claim came off as very scummy to me. I really don't see the reasons behind the Tyler bandwagon as being well founded. Thus, I felt you were trying to exploit the flimsy wagon by getting a roleclaim out of it. To boot I felt your excuse for asking for the claim was quite unwarranted. He was at L-2 with very little discussion going on. Furthermore, you moving your vote to him in order to keep the pressure on invalidates your reasoning for requesting the claim.

The wagon on you isn't going away and there are a couple of players not voting whose actions, in this game and meta-wise, are not entirely predictable.

Clearly you are saying you are worried about someone else moving their vote to TylerJ and lynching him before he can claim. Now that you have moved your vote to him, it is clear that you are only interested in his claim, and not worried about someone coming in and rashly lynching a powerrole before they get a chance to claim. The wagon definitely isn't going away if you add your vote to it. Your reasoning is even further conflicting when you later state:

My suspect list continues to be Max and GH

If Max and GH are still your top suspects, and you're worried about someone(s) coming along and suddenly lynching an unclaimed player on a -2 bandwagon, why are you maintaining that player at -2 and moving your vote off of one of your top suspects?

I'm hoping to get something more up in the next couple hours. Busy day at work. I wanted to talk about Rishi. But this last sequence of events seems to be a bit more pertinent. So I'm going to get something up on TylerJ and my opinions of the bandwagon.



Finally, I do agree that panzer's post was quite off.

I still want a claim from tyler but Unvote, Vote:Ckillor

If you still want the claim, removing pressure will not get it. That's very self-contradictory.

Very confusing, we have one player that's afraid of the bandwagon but votes into it, and another player that wants to maintain pressure but jumps off the wagon. Is this backwards action day?

[ckillor]

Panzerjager then posts a beaut, taking his vote OFF of Tyler, easing the pressure and making my roleclaim request meaningless. He pours a vote onto CK, who in 2 sentences and a pasted quote manages to contribute more to the game than he had to date ("I'm not even on the Tyler wagon" and lies ("I have been posting more content..." maybe in another thread, not this one). This fulfills shafted prophecy of the Tyler wagon losing steam, doubly since with the vote the ck one is now gaining momentum

i meant that i have been posting more content than i did before the entire thing when i first came back to this game. and if people had ever actually noticed my little analysis back a page or two ago that could be thought of as content too.

[shaft.ed]

ckillor, your posts to date consist of three types:

1-"I'm not lurking, but have nothing to say"

2-One single run down of all the players

3-"Hey look I made a post with an analysis of all the players, I'm really not lurking"

[ckillor]

well if people had things to say to me other than "Post an analysis or we lynch you"
or "stop posting nothing of content!!"
stop criticizing me for the same thing over and over.
im trying and if people don't have anything to say about my efforts(yes there has been some) then theres nothing i can do to change that since nothing i do is obviously good enough!!

[shaft.ed]

Bah I haven't got the time to day for the amount of content I want in the Tyler analysis.

Short version is basically I feel that he is giving off a lot of newb tells that may be scum tells. He has taken some heat for compiling a number of these minor tells. The heat grew becuase he is very poor at defending himself, which again is a minor scum tell.

My personal intuintion is that Tyler is likely a flustered townie, but may be scum as he is certainly giving off some scum tells. Also given that there is an extra scum in this game, even though they don't know who they are, they thus have a larger voting block. Therefore I think we need to be more careful of who we lynch. A player like Tyler would be fresh meat for any experienced scum. His de novo arguments have been weak, he tends to get defensive easily and he has been quite poor at rebutting people's arguments even when it is clear that he should be able to.

What really jumped out at me was when ChronX argued that he is worried that a pair of unknowns could swing in and lynch Tyler before the town even gets a chance to hear a roleclaim. First of all, the people voting for him have done piss poor jobs of making their case against him. Anyone that would come along and add a lynching vote to this bandwagon would likely be in a poor situation should Tyler come up town. Secondly, only Dasq and Rishi had even talked about Tyler's scumminess in the last page and a half. Although no votes have moved, it was effectively not a topic of discussion at the time aside from Rishi's post just before you. And lastly you state that the non-voters are too unpredictable for you. These players are myself, ckillor, aioqwe and Max.

I am currently playing in another game with you so you should be familiar with my playstyle. I have not moved my vote around all willy nilly there nor here, so I know you aren't talking about me in this instance. I haven't meta'd or played with the other players, but ckillor hasn't placed a vote since the random phase. Your lucky to even get content from him and you seriously think he'd just jump in and hammer a L-2 player when the majority of the town find him scummy? Then you have aoiqwe, who also hasn't placed a vote since the random phase. How are you reasonably worried that either of these two players are going to jump and and finish off a bandwagon before a claim? Finally you have Max. I haven't meta'd Max, but judging from his join date it's likely many of you have played with him. Someone else could probably help me out here if it is or isn't likely to expect Max to hammer in this situation. But Max has also not moved his vote since the random phase. And I'd also repeat many players have chimed in stating they find Max scummy. I very much doubt he'd hammer against the town's wishes with such a weak D1 performance.

What this last longwinded paragraph boils down to is that your fear was that two of the Max, ckillor, aioqwe, me quartet might come in and hammer Tyler before the town got a chance to hear his claim. That's a junk argument as three of those players haven't even laid down a vote since the random phase.

[TylerJ]

@chronx and Rishi, the reason why I did not vote Max is because I don't have a strong case against him, but I still find him suspicious. Hence the fact I FoS'ed him and didn't place my vote on him. This

is

protown by the fact that I am making sure my votes are at least more grounded than gut feelings. I won't play a hypocrite.

In the same thread, he buddies up to Shafted and Dasq. Reads as sympathy plea.

whatever... (what attorneys would call heresay)

The other bits of your post speak of others and isn't adressed against me.

I would like to note that I couldn't find your reason for finding post 301 scummy.

In the end I will repeat myself. Chronx, I will not role-claim. Two reasons, if you think I am scum, you wouldn't believe me. Secondly, it seems that you are mafia and are attempting to role fish. This last bit can be brought on by feelings of OMGUS, but I can't shake the feeling that you are scum and are role-fishing.

[TylerJ]

ABWOP: Part of me wants to be lynched so that everyone who decided to jump on me for lame reasons will have it backfire on them. And then, perhaps they will play the game intellegently instead of rashly. Yet, the otherside of me says that I shouldn't throw in the towel and that I should try my hardest at this game.

[ChronX]

If Max and GH are still your top suspects, and you're worried about someone(s) coming along and suddenly lynching an unclaimed player on a -2 bandwagon, why are you maintaining that player at -2 and moving your vote off of one of your top suspects?

There are 2 mafia and 2 members of each. We need to lynch a scum today, and or find out who is doing what in relation to bandwagons. My vote on GH was wasting its time, and is somewhat based on gut anyway. A vote on max at this time will give us some information, but I DON'T agree that we have (had) learned all we could learn from the Tyler wagon. Until we get more content from several players, including at least one ON the wagon (JDodge) we should keep the wagon in tact.

And yeah, shaft.ed was the least likely to hastily or inadvertently hammer from that bunch. ckillor is the most likely, I seem to recall him tossing an oh what the hell L-1 in some game I'm in with him. The fact that he's NOT piling into the wagon which opposes the one he is on I think is actually interesting, it suggest to me he may be scum afraid of the heat of casting such a vote.

[PJ.]

Alright, I'm feeling good about lynching Ckillor.

[shaft.ed]

ChronX fair enough on the Tyler wagon. Thanks for the elaboration on ckillor, if its not ongoing a link would be great. While I agree more info may come from the Tyler bandwagon I'm mostly concerned about two things.
1) An unneccessarily outed town powerrole.
2) A partially scum induced breakdown of a weak townie. As you said, with 4 scum we have to be very careful, unless we get lucky with scum crossfire and I'd rather not rely on luck.

[PJ.]

2) A partially scum induced breakdown of a weak townie. As you said, with 4 scum we have to be very careful, unless we get lucky with scum crossfire and I'd rather not rely on luck.

QFT, anyway, I'm very much against his claim at this point. I would apperciate it if we got of of his wagon. He is quite obviously town. Kthnx.

[somestrangeflea]

JDodge has been prodded, for the third and final time today...

[Rishi]

QFT, anyway, I'm very much against his claim at this point. I would apperciate it if we got of of his wagon. He is quite obviously town. Kthnx.

Why is he "obviously town"? I don't like "obvious" conclusions without explanation.