Mini 515 - The Pine Barrens - Game Over!

[neko2086]

Uhm, I think others will agree with me when I say that you weren't being aggressive, and if anyone was being aggressive about anything, it was ryan and Boggzie, which brings me to a question I think a lot of us would like addressed...

what now, Boggzie?

[Bookitty]

To clarify, in my opinion. the only thing that ryan's death clears me of is Boggzie's charge that ryan and I were scumbuddies. Clearly that allegation was incorrect. That doesn't make me cleared or confirmed as town, though, and I shouldn't be considered so for purposes of logical deduction. (I would like it if you considered me so, but there's been no proof of it yet.)

This game has gotten off to a very bad start, and I too am waiting for some reaction on Boggzie's part. Since I didn't know how to react to the whole "metagame/out of game" nature of the accusation, I'm reluctant to judge anyone else based on how they reacted to it. It was a bad situation and made worse by the overreactions of those involved (including myself). I am in hopes that the rest of the game runs more smoothly.

[hasdgfas]

Well.... does this mean Bookitty is off the hook or could she just have been trying to cover for herself by outing ryan.

I'll assume this is a question. Nobody is ever off the hook after a NK. Usually nobody makes it obvious by killing someone that was going after them strongly the previous day, but that gets into WIFOM territory, so you can't go by that.

Uhm, I think others will agree with me when I say that you weren't being aggressive, and if anyone was being aggressive about anything, it was ryan and Boggzie, which brings me to a question I think a lot of us would like addressed...

what now, Boggzie?

I second this sentiment

[Rishi]

First Vote Count - Day 2

Not voting: Bookitty, Boggzie, mcpaltp, ThAdmiral, hasdgfas, Zakarum, neko2086, TheHermit, opie, Elias_the_thief

10 alive. 6 votes to lynch.

[mcpaltp]

I did forget to insert the /humour tag before and after. My bad.

No, Ryan's bad. It wasn't needed.

This is post #55, last Wednesday. This was the last thing that ThAdmiral posted, unless I missed him in the last few pages. We did just have an unexpected night, but I'd like to see, well,

any

content from him.

I am somewhat suspicious of Boggzie and Bookittie, but considering how much I though ryan was scum, it would be at least a little hypocritical to jump on either of them right now. I leaning towards "honest mistake" for the PM, but I'm going to reserve judgement for right now. They havn't been registering as scum so much to me, but my 'dar has clearly been on the fritz recently.

Oh well. Perhaps this will flush ThAdmiral out.

Vote:ThAdmiral

Mostly for my own curiosity:

Ignoring hindsight for now, did you think Ryan was scum/scummy? If not, where did you think my logic went off the rails? If so, did you agree with my reasoning?

[TheHermit]

So, what now town? I thought ryan was getting a little overemotional, but I didn't expect him to become an hero. I'm not all that suspicious of Boggzie; I think he really did believe ryan made a scum slip-up, but this episode just goes to show you can't base an accusation of mis-sent PMs. All of Day 1 was just too meta. And on top of that, we lost Spider Jerusalem! Man, no good comes from getting too emotional.

Now that I'm done summarizing the events of last night, I'm going to

Vote: mcpaltp

. Not only did he stubbornly refuse to accept that there was possibly no relevancy to the PM issue, but he comes out of the gate bowing and scraping. In my experience, after a mafia lynches a townie they are usually full of contrition. Not only that, I see his "if you think I was wrong I'll ask to be replaced" as obvious emotional manipulation. I'm not falling for it.

[Zakarum]

Great. No only is my scumdar competely off and a townie gets himself modkilled, but we lose an awesome townie. (Nice flavor, btw) This blows.

Oh, and thanks ryan. Thanks a bunch. Not only is a townie lynched, but we don't even get any vote histories to analyse.

If there is a consensus that I was acting inappropriately/too aggressively in pursuing someone who I thought was scummy, I'll ask to be replaced. I really don't want to ruin the fun for everyone else/break the game. Even if there is not a consensus, I'd like everybody to weigh in on maybe how I should have done that differently, if at all. I'm feeling guilty about the whole mess.

Seems very very scummy.

FOS: mcpaltp

[mcpaltp]

So, what now town? I thought ryan was getting a little overemotional, but I didn't expect him to become an hero. I'm not all that suspicious of Boggzie; I think he really did believe ryan made a scum slip-up, but this episode just goes to show you can't base an accusation of mis-sent PMs. All of Day 1 was just too meta. And on top of that, we lost Spider Jerusalem! Man, no good comes from getting too emotional.

Now that I'm done summarizing the events of last night, I'm going to

Vote: mcpaltp

. Not only did he stubbornly refuse to accept that there was possibly no relevancy to the PM issue, but he comes out of the gate bowing and scraping. In my experience, after a mafia lynches a townie they are usually full of contrition. Not only that, I see his "if you think I was wrong I'll ask to be replaced" as obvious emotional manipulation. I'm not falling for it.

I press hard on some guy I've just met and he commits the mafia equivalent of suicide. I feel guilty and responsible, and if my pressuring is out of line for this mafia community, I offered to be replaced. I'm pretty new here and I'm used to a slightly different playstyle. I'm sorry if you see it as emotional manipulation, that's not my intention. If I was out of line, I'd leave this game, if it was ok, I'd stay. Simple as that, but I wanted to know how the players felt.

Also, I'm not sure what you ment by "[refusing] to accept that there was possibly no relevancy to the PM issue". I never really cared so much about the PM issue. I cared about how ryan was responding to the allegation. Take a look over my post history, I repeated myself several times to this effect.

[mcpaltp]

*mega snip*
I evaluate how people respond to allegations and accusations as much as the allegations and accusations themselves. *snip*

Evidence from my post history. See also #s 95, 100, 117, 121, 125, 142. For continuing references of me not voting based on Boggzie's PM-based allegations, but on how ryan was reacting. Re-reading the pre-flip discussion from the last several pages, I still would have voted for ryan.

[TheHermit]

I think ryan's play could have gone either way; either scum, or noob town. He revealed which with his childish PM quote. I think his actions were deserving of suspicion, but not a vote. But that's just me; others would

As to whether you went too far, no. Not so far that it warrants asking for a replacement. ryan chose to overreact to that magnitude on his own. But in several of the games I've played/read, if someone comes after another player hard and then is very apologetic after they're revealed to be town, that person is usually scum. This is because a townie bases their votes on logic, reason, and interpretation; they had good reasons for their vote, they just happened to be wrong and the victim was unable to defend himself adequately. A scum, however, KNOWS that their reasons are bad, and they feel guilty for getting someone lynched for no good reason. That's why I'm suspicious of your "sorry guys" stance right now. It's a scumtell.

[mcpaltp]

What I really feel bad about is that he was so upset he effectively modkilled himself to get out of the game. It felt like I hazed somebody so badly that they wanted to quit the game rather than play with me anymore.

That's

what I'm apologizing for.

I still think my logic and reasoning was valid.

[opie]

With regards to Boggzie. I agree with TheHermit

My vote for ryan was more for his reaction to Boggzie’s accusations, not necessarily because of the PM. Although that contributed. Seems to me that Boggzie misinterpreted the PM and honestly believed that ryan was scum. One would think that scum would avoid drawing such attention to themselves, especially if they now the target is going to turn out townie. Needless to say, I’m very interested in how the rest of this day plays out.

Here are some preliminary thoughts that I have:

hasdgfas seems pretty clean to me. He's the only one who consistently defended ryan even as early as Post 70. It would seem to me that scum would have had no interest in slowing down the ryan train wreck. This would be even more true if, as I suspect, that Boggzie is town as well.

For this reason, I’m a bit suspicious of the few that remained fairly quiet during Day 1. But I have no way knowing right now if they are scum or just lurking. This would include ThAdmiral, Zakarum and to some extent neko2086.

I also find myself agreeing with the comments of TheHermit and Zakarum with regards to mcpaltp. Posts 130 and 131 just seem a bit odd to me. They just don’t seem necessary. I don’t think Post 129 warranted any kind of apology.

As for Bookitty, looking back through the posts, I do find her early reaction to the ryan situation a little suspicious. Boggzie made a random, tenuous accusation that she was scum. Her reaction to vote for ryan, hoping that he turn up town to prove her innocence, seems odd. First, I don’t know how ryan turning up town would prove her innocent of Boggzie’s accusation. It seems that she may have latched onto ryan in order to “distance” herself. But I don’t know if I’m 100% correct about that. I felt pretty sure about ryan. And we all now how that turned out. I feel a bit tentative pointing my finger at anyone at this point. I don’t know if these reactions were in response to ryan’s own reactiveness or indicative of something more.

[Bookitty]

I'm not certain why you're taking responsibility for this, mcpaltp. The situation was messed up, no doubt about it. But so far as I know it was not of your making.

Your comments were not over the line in my opinion. I've heard much worse. So your strange "mea culpa" attitude is not really merited.

As I read it, no one is saying you should leave the game. They are saying the way you are acting is scummy. I tend to agree. However, I'm not interested in joining any bandwagons until we have some further discussion and until Boggzie is heard from, at a minimum.

[Bookitty]

First, I don’t know how ryan turning up town would prove her innocent of Boggzie’s accusation.

Boggzie accused ryan of being scum and accidentally sending Boggzie a PM (deleted before Boggzie could read it) intended for one of his scumbuddies. The reason Boggzie implicated me is solely because my name begins with Bo, as does Boggzie's, and Boggzie theorised that ryan must have meant to send it to me instead. Boggzie felt this proved that ryan and I were scumbuddies, as a result. This was his sole reason for accusing me, so far as I know.

That is why, if ryan was not scum who had accidentally sent Boggzie a PM meant for a scumbuddy, I would be cleared of Boggzie's accusation of being said scumbuddy (though still not cleared of being scum on my own -- I've definitely NOT been confirmed town by this, nor am I trying to imply that I have).

That's how I see it anyway. If there's a flaw in my logic, please point it out.

[hasdgfas]

Although most of this has been said already. I would like to state my thoughts at this point.

mcpaltp: I

know

this has been said, but you weren't the one responsible for ryan. I've seen pressuring used well in other games. Imo, ryan just took it too harshly and used extremely bad judgement in the vast majority of his posts, and before he modkilled himself, I was feeling less and less sure of his innocence each post until the modkill. Then I knew I was extremely happy with where my vote was for that day. Your posting was not inappropriate in any way, and you should stay in this game.

besides that, there's not too much else to say until some of the quiet ones start talking. I still want to hear from Boggzie after yesterday's fiasco, and hearing from ThAdmiral, Zakarum, and other quiet ones will be useful in making my judgement.

[Boggzie]

I don't have an adequate defense. The PM was real, it was far too suspicious in my opinion to let go. I just

knew

he was scum. I am unsure of where to go from here.

[neko2086]

I'm surprised to hear that I've been lurking, but I guess I haven't spoken up as much as others.

Now, it's sounding to me so far as though people are going to let boggzie of the hook pretty easily, which is really surprising to me. Bookitty, primarily, suggested that she would be voting for boggzie if ryan turned up innocent ( i could find the quote but i'm lazy, if necessary i will). Now opie seems willing to let it go as an innocent mistake.

I made this suggestion before and I'd like to bring it up again... perhaps boggzie made the pm thing up (or did receive a pm and fabricated a story about what it contained) and had scumbuddies to get in on the act. It would be stupid for mafia to create a gigantic lie like that since the victim would turn up innocent and automatically shift suspicion upon themselves

unless

they convinced enough people that mafia would never do such an extreme thing.

I hope that made sense, but basically, I'm not ready to excuse boggzie's actions, and I'm unsettled by those that would.

[Elias_the_thief]

I as a player have nothing against lynching townies for the gain of the town, though I dont want to get into that debate right now. However, lynching another townie to clear your own name is in no way a good reason to lynch someone that you don't think is scum. First, you're assuming that you are more valuable to the town. Second, you're assuming that by doing this youre actually clearing your name, and I feel that youre doing quite the opposite. So yeah. Scummy post. Also, if Bookitty is scum, theres lots of motivation to lynch a townie and clear herself. Not to mention her inconsistency on whether or not she got a pm from ryan.

This logic still holds true, especially since Ryan was town. So I'll put my vote back where it was yesterday.

vote: Bookitty

, with an fos for Boogzie on the side based on yesterdays logic.

Boggzie:

I don't know what scumtells you're believe in, but I don't understand how you can think someone is scum based on an unopened pm. Pushing this case based on that is fairly ridiculous. I also dont like this post:

The others will come to light, like they do in every game.

I dunno. It just sounds...off. Like he's trying to inflate a weak case by claiming to be a steller scumhunter. I always find people who claim to be great at finding scum to be suspicious, unless they have completed games to back it up (do you?).

Also, combined with the fact that he never responded to my question or my logic in defense of Ryan,

I do not suspect Ryan much either. Ryan has a decent excuse for sending a pm in the first place, and it is completely unverifiable whether or not it was for replacement. Also, last time I saw him get this defensive, he was town (and quoted his pm, but we won't get into that). This isnt to say I think he's town; This is just to say that I dont think he's scum for either of the major tells on him so far.

And pushed for a mislynch on little evidence (in fact, no evidence. There was no proof of what that pm was about). So Boggzie is a close second to Bookitty on my LOS.
Though I really can't believe that Ryan would do this AGAIN. He's done it so many times now. *shakes head*.


Also, I second the request for Thadmiral to post.

[Bookitty]

Keeping in mind that a one-for-one exchange, scum for town, is utterly disastrous for scum (I'm sure you know this), if ryan doesn't come up scum, I'm going to be certain that you are. I'm sure that I won't be alone in this. And no amount of "Oh, I guess I just screwed up, then!" on your part is going to change my mind.

I think this is the quote you're looking for, Neko.

I also said this later, as well:

I agree that the metagame thing sucks, since we both know it's not true, but the only way to prove it's not true is for one of the three of us to die, I guess. So I don't understand the level of anger you're showing. And I'm not sure Boggzie is LYING, either. I think he's wrong. I don't KNOW he's wrong, but I think he is. I think you sent him an unsolicited PM about replacing into your game, much as you had sent me one when I posted that I would do some replacing... and that you realised you'd missent it and withdrew it. That's what I THINK, but I don't know it. And Boggzie may honestly think what he says he thinks. He might be mistaken, and not lying at all.

I just don't see scum using this blatant a gambit. Of course, then, WIFOM, maybe that's exactly why Boggzie would do it, counting on the fact that no one would believe scum would be this blatant.

Boggzie, do you remember saying this:

I've already stated that I know this is suicide if he's town.

So, ryan was town. You "knew he was scum", but he wasn't. What do you think is a reasonable response, at this point?

[Boggzie]

I expect to be lynched today. That is what I expect. That's what's best for the town.

If I'm not lynched, it's because the scum are shifting focus elsewhere because I'm easy to pick off later. The scum know I'm town.

If I am, then the game can proceed correctly, the only drawback is I'm town.

I made a mistake. There's no "oops", there's no pleading for my life. I saw no other reason for ryan to PM me except he was scum and made a mistake.

ugh, and this whole thing is filled with WIFOM. The correct thing to do is lynch me as the scum will use it against the town to turn you on me later, costing you another townie. That's the most honest assessment I can give.

[TheHermit]

Boggzie: I don't know whether to bop you in the head or go ahead and lynch you. If you are town, then the best thing for the town is to NOT lynch you. No question about it. Ugh, between you and mcpaltp I don't know who's "I'm so sorry" schtick is more scummy.

[mcpaltp]

gah, again, It's not "oh golly I'm such a naughty boy for getting a townie lynched. Oh woe is me, Oh woe is town", it's "Oh snap, I just browbeat some guy on the internet so much he wanted to quit the game. I feel terrible, I'll ask if I was out of line, and the friendly

players

will let me know if I took it too far."

If he had been lynched the normal way, I'd be worried that my scumdar was a little off, but I would not be apologizing at all.

Is this clear yet? I don't like thinking that I hurt somebody, on the internet or no.

[neko2086]

um, to say that ryan was hurt I think would be going a bit too far. He reacted badly, which was a bad move. If he'd have been rational at all, we might not have ever been in this situation

[Elias_the_thief]

This is not the first time he's cracked under pressure and revealed his role pm, as I pointed out in my analysis of his play earlier on, and those pushing for his lynch seemed to have ignored it. I think it's safe to say that he was pissed off, but not hurt.

[TheHermit]

Meh, that was all ryan's fault. In my limited time on the site here I've already been browbeaten at least as badly, and even at my most childish I didn't even consider quoting my role PM. That guy needs to get a thicker skin. No, I don't think you were out of line in the slightest.

We're still at a disadvantage, though... we're at Day 2 and thanks to ryan we don't have much info to go on.